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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: dumork on Friday 15 January 21 11:22 GMT (UK)
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My great-grandmother is listed in the 1881 census as cook at Turner Hall, Ellon parish, with
John White as Head, formerly of New Zealand. There are several young children.
I wonder if there is any archive material pertaining to Turner Hall, or the White family? I believe the house is now gone. In 1871 it was home to a huge family of Turners. I suspect that John White bought the Hall around 1879: the youngest of their three children aged 5 months, was born there, but the middle one in Edinburgh (May 1879) and the oldest in New Zealand about 1877/8, the Whites having married in 1876 in Edinburgh. In 1891 they had moved to Turriff parish.
My ggm was born Ann(ie) Flett in 1849 in Orkney, claimed to marry John Emslie (an engraver) in 1875, and appears as Annie Elmslie (Married) in the 1881 Turner Hall list, though there is no John Elmslie or Emslie around.
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The owner of Turnerhall at that period was John Turner (1831-1899). He married Mary Ann, daughter of Alexander Donaldson and Maria Phillimore in 1854 and had three sons and five daughters. John was Colonel Commanding, 3rd Battalion, Gordon Highlanders.
The house was demolished in 1933.
John White will not have been the owner of the property. He may be the steward. The Turner family must be staying elsewhere.
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Thanks for the quick and helpful reply. I think that John White may be a tenant, rather than steward, possibly because Lt-Col Turner was posted somewhere. Interesting, because the servants, including my ggm, might have "come with the house", so may be mentioned in a family archive. They had an Irish cook in 1871.
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I have this Census entry, I am not related but was searching for another John White years ago. I kept this one because of his occupation. The actual census says he was a Rum Holder in New Zealand which cracked me up.
Btw it says the "House Turnerhall" I searched the 1885 Valuation Rolls and it appears they didn't stay there. He was from England his wife Scotland and Euphemia age 3 year, New Zealand. The rest must be on page 2 which I don't have. Normally they go from eldest to youngest.
Don
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He must have been a tenant at Turnerhall right enough. He pops us fairly frequently in the newspapers. By November 1883 he was living at Foveran House, On 14th July 1884 he bought Glenesk House, Turriff, for £3,000. His wife died in Aberdeen in 1915 and is described as a widow in the papers.
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Don - it's Run holder, which basically means sheep farmer, I believe.
You can get the full census entry for Turner Hall free on ScotlandsPeople (the LDS 1881 version)
I actually have the second page to yours - it has the younger children and servants, including my great granny.
GR2 - thanks. Would the tenancy of Turner Hall in the late 1870s have been advertised in the papers?
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A reference to Turnerhall in the OS Name Books 1865-71 https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-29/66
Added: https://aberdeen-asp.adlibhosting.com/Details/collect/9275 Sadly no images attached for those paintings online.
Monica
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It might have been advertised. I didn't notice it, but might have missed it. If you want to research John White in New Zealand, the Papers Past site gives you free, searchable access to the New Zealand newspapers.
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Could be run holder never thought of that, but it looks like Rum Holder on the original which was a term for being a tad lazy. But I laughed because I had purchased two antique rum holders one of your typical chubby old fellow red cheeks who looks rather intoxicated. It's a Don thing.
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Hi there - my great, great grannie was the Irish cook to whom you refer :) !! Hannah’s mum was a White - Eliza White from Toem, County Tipperary. Any link?
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That's interesting. Do you know when your gg granny Hannah Hansard left the post of cook at Turner Hall?
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I think Hannah probably left Turner Hall just before she had her first daughter, Jessie Davidson, in 1874 - or, when she got married to William Davidson from Ellon a few years previously. I’d love to know why she came to Turner Hall from Dundrum in County Tipperary, land of Cornwallis Maude, rather than head West to America like most of her siblings. One brother worked in London with Lord Hawarden.
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I have a census record for 1841, stating House of Turnerhall, with the overseer listed as George Brichen (should be Brechin) age 40 (but probably rounded down from 44) and his son George age 12. There is also a Jas. Thomson age 15, ag labourer and Jane Watt age 18, female servant.
So does this mean they were the only ones in the house at that time?
The people on either side of the census record are at Cookstown on one side and what looks like Elphincroft on the other side.
I'm trying to verify the identity of George Brechin circa 1829 parents George Brechin and Barbara Gordon. I think his mother may have died in 1840, so this is looking likely. George (circa 1829) was my GG grandfather.
Can anyone shed any more light on this?
thanks,
Melanie
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Hi Melanie
Do you have George Jnr's marriage or death registrations to see what shows for him? His death is indexed as:
GEORGE GORDON BRECHIN
Age 83
Mother's maiden name GORDON
1912
275/ 92
Brechin
If you have access, there is a family tree here for George father www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/176458191/person/372290809691/facts
Are these George Jnr's details here www.bayanne.info/Shetland/getperson.php?personID=I493763&tree=ID1
Monica
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The reference to Turner Hall in 1841 continues to connect with George Brechin, looking at the OS books for late 1860s https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-29/66
Kinhararrachy is showings as his residence in 1861: Kinhanachy Cottage Gamekeeper's House, Gamekeeper & Farmer Of 20 Acres.
Monica
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Thanks Monica. Yes those are George Jnrs details. There is no birth record for him, that I can locate, but that is his death record.
There are a few family trees on ancestry - all with different parents! So I don't think any of them are necessarily accurate. So, for example the one you gave the link to, the death record for that George with parents George and Margaret Adam, only lists Jane Todd as his wife. There is a marriage record for George marrying Jane Todd in 1843. But no children, unlike the Mary Jane Todd listed in that tree.
The list on Bayanne has Barbara Gordon being born in 1805. But there were quite a few Barbara Gordon's born around the time and I can't find anything that verifies that this is the same Barbara Gordon.
There were also a few George Brechin/Brichens, so it is hard to work out who is whom. But the death record for George Junior lists his father as a land steward. Could a land steward be the same as an overseer? What about a Master Gardener?
There are 2 census records in 1841 for a George Brechin aged 12. One is the one living at Turner Hall. The other is living in a large house as a male servant. Either way, the mother was not around so I suspect Barbara Gordon may have died in 1840 or earlier.
So I think it is still a tangled web at this stage, and I can't rely on those other trees. But I have hope that I will find more evidence and will untangle the web.
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Oh wow Monica, that record for the OS books is brilliant! I looked at a few pages, and George Brechin is listed as the authority for the spelling of names of a lot of them. Which would indicate to me that he is a land steward, wouldn't you think?
Oh gosh, it's after 3am, I need to go to bed.
Thanks Monica, those leads have been great.
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A stone in the old kirkyard at Ellon has the inscription:
Erected by his widow in memory of her husband George Brichen late land steward Turnerhall who died at Kinharrachy 17th January 1881 aged 84 years. Also his wife Jane Todd who died 5th Dec. 1909 aged 86 years.
James Godsman, in his book on Ellon, lists amongst the tenants of East Kinharrachie, "Robert Breichen, 1740-1797, and his brother, Dr. George Breichen, 1744-1821."
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Oh wow, that is a brilliant find! Thank you for that. I'm very excited by this.
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Looking at the index of deaths on ScotlandsPeople, the maiden name of the mother of the George "Brichen" whose death was registered in Ellon in 1881, aged 84, was "Adams".
The index also shows a marriage for George "Brichen" and Margaret "Adam" recorded in Ellon on 15-4-1786. They must have come from different parishes, as there is also a record for George "Brechin" and Margaret "Adam" in Chapel of Garioch, Aberdeenshire, on 4-5-1786. The dates differ depending on what is recorded - the initial intention to marry, the reading of banns, or the marriage itself.
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Monica, I just realised the information you had asked about here...
"Are these George Jnr's details here www.bayanne.info/Shetland/getperson.php?personID=I493763&tree=ID1" was the information that I supplied to them! I sent them a family tree from the research that I had done. Which means if i got any of it wrong, then so did they. So not a great resource for me because it would work like an echo chamber.
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Hi - My grandmother, Jane Milne (nee Donald) gave birth to her oldest son, Ewing Milne at Kirkhowe, Turnerhall, Ellon in 1925. Would you know who owned the Hall at that time, and/or was it set up as a hospital at that time?
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The Hall was not a hospital. The Turner family did not reside there all the time. In fact the Hall was demolished in 1933.
The place you are looking at is a small farm (then about 44 acres) called Little Kirkhowe. It was part of the Turnerhall estate. The tenant in 1925 was Robert Donald. I wonder if that was her father and she had gone home to have her first child. Most children were born at home, not in hospital, at that time.
The advertisement in the Aberdeen Daily Journal (1-12-1920) says that offers for the tenancy have to be made by 24th December with entry at Whitsunday 1921. That will have been when Robert Donald took over the tenancy.
This map shows Little Kirkhowe near the top. Turnerhall itself is not far away:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74479901
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Many thanks GR2 for your reply. Jane's father was Robert Donald, her mother Elsie Anderson, had died in 1919. We knew that Robert worked at Kirkhowe and we have a photo of the house, so its good to know it was part of the Turnerhall Estate. That would be right, Jane would have had the baby at home, as my grandparents did not marry for another year afterwards. They then immigrated to Australia where we all live. Robert and Elsie were at Mains of Esslemont before that.
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The 1920 valuation roll shows Robert Donald working as a farm servant at Mains of Esslemont.
It was quite common for someone to work as a farm servant for a number of years and then take on the tenancy of a small farm. The 1925 valuation roll shows Robert Donald as tenant and occupier of "Farm and house, Kirkhill, Little". He rents it from the trustees of the late John Turner of Turnerhall, per Davidson and Garden*, 12 Dee Street, Aberdeen, for £68 1/3d a year.
* the firm of solicitors that handled estate business
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Many thanks GR2 for that information. Robert eventually moved on to Quarrybrae, Auchedly, where he passed in 1966. He was the youngest of 10 children, which we have only just found out about recently. Certainly been an exciting journey for us.