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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tricia_2 on Sunday 10 January 21 03:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi and happy new year :)
I would be interested in your thoughts :)
I knew my great grandmother, even though she was born in 1869, and I remember her well. She died when I was six. (That's her, with me and my mum in the photo.)
Great grandmother Alice and her three younger siblings were orphaned when she was 13. Their mother died first, in 1879, and then their father, in 1883. They lived in a village on Bredon Hill, on the Gloucestershire / Worcestershire border.
Alice used to tell a story about the time her father was out working, going from one place to another with his cart, when he came across a lady out riding. She was alone and had had an accident. She was lying injured on the ground, having fallen from her horse.
My great great grandfather helped her, of course. I cannot remember the exact details but I think that he lifted her onto his cart and took her home to safety. Understandably, the lady was extremely grateful. She asked for his details and told him: "I shan't forget you, David Neale". It seems to have been clear that she was rich and of high status, but I have no idea who she was.
When she died, she left David Neale a bequest in her will. Apparently, it was quite generous and included land and a mill in Wales. In order to claim it, Alice's father was asked to go to London. This would have been a major journey for him at any time, but, at this particular time, his wife was dying and he would not leave her.
Many years later, when my father asked her for more information, she said that it was pointless trying to follow it up, as the bequest would have already been lost and gone to the crown.
I appreciate that the bequest has probably long gone, either to the crown or to her family members, but I would still like to know more about it.
Has anyone got any ideas where I might start, please? I know that many families have such legends, but Alice seemed to be fairly certain of its truth when she told my family about it.
I'm just seeking ideas, as I can't think where to look, or even what to look for.
I don't think it's possible to search for Will beneficiaries.
I don't know if it is correct to assume that any property would have reverted to the crown.
I don't know who might have owned so much, yet been out riding around Bredon Hill, in the mid 1800s.
Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any advice :)
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Can you post the census links for 1871 and 1881 for the family please.
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Hi,
There is a newspaper account of an accident in April 1873 concerning Lord and Lady Coventry who were riding round Bredon Hill and Ashton under Hill. Lady Coventry was "severely shaken".
"assistance was at hand and Lady Coventry was speedily extricated from her perilous position".
No mention how or by whom unfortunately.
I would imagine riding falls were quite common in those days and she did seem to be with others as they were riding with the hunt.
Cathy
Added ..probably not the incident you are looking for as Lady Coventry was "assisted to walk to a neighbouring house "(John Baldwins) and an hour later conveyed home to Croome in his lordships own carriage.
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The account of Lady Coventry's accident in 1873 had a nice ring to it, in the context of the family anecdote, and other sources online suggest that she was a really nice person.
However, as Cathy has already sown the seeds of doubt, I regret having to advise that it was probably not that person, Lady Blanche Coventry, that David Neale aided so well.
This is because, whereas he died in 1883, Lady Blanche did not die until March 1930.
Willyam
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The bequest wouldn't have gone to the Crown - it would have gone into her residuary estate and therefore to whoever of the beneficiaries was entitled to that.
Must say I don't quite understand the need to go to London - communication by post with locally-sworn affidavits would almost certainly have worked fine.
The death was probably after 1858 so would have been through the probate registry - working through all the possible Wills there would be a massive undertaking. The Death Duty Registers on FindMyPast might narrow things down a bit, by county and indirectly by wealth.
You might try local histories for the area to see if you can find mention of death of a member of the gentry that might fit.
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There is a newspaper account of an accident in April 1873 concerning Lord and Lady Coventry who were riding round Bredon Hill and Ashton under Hill. ....
I must admit, that does sound perfect. Shame it doesn't quite fit.
Thank you, Cathy :)
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The account of Lady Coventry's accident in 1873 had a nice ring to it ... Lady Blanche did not die until March 1930.
Thanks Willyam. Too good to be true :)
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It sounds like one of those 'if grandpa hadn't sold the farm ...' stories to me.
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The bequest wouldn't have gone to the Crown - it would have gone into her residuary estate ... I don't quite understand the need to go to London ...
Yes, I thought that it wouldn't have gone to the crown in those circumstances.
And I wondered about the need to go to London.
That's the thing, really - my desire to work out what exactly haoppened - if that's possible.
Yes, checking the newspapers for deaths of rich people is a good idea. Thank you. :)
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It sounds like one of those 'if grandpa hadn't sold the farm ...' stories to me.
If I don't research it, I'll never know. :)
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Can you post the census links for 1871 and 1881 for the family please.
Here they are :)
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The more I think about it, the more that story of Lord & Lady Coventry sounds too similar to be coincidental. It could be that David Neale helped by offering the use of his cart to convety Lady Coventry to safety. I don't know. But he would certainly have known the story. Even though Lady Coventry's death was not at the right time, I think I'll look into this further. Thank you :)
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There is a newspaper account of an accident in April 1873 concerning Lord and Lady Coventry who were riding round Bredon Hill and Ashton under Hill. ...
Hi :)
My family would have known about this incident, whether or not David Neale was involved. I would love to know more. Could you tell me, please, which publication this was in? Was it available online? Thank you very much :)
EDIT: I have now found an article on this accident in the 12th April 1873 edition of the Bromsgrove & Droitwich Messenger :)
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I think the Lady Coventry link is a good one to follow up, even though the dates don’t seem to match up with events.
Some points about the family story occurred to me.
Firstly, to leave land and a mill in Wales to someone who helped briefly after a riding accident seems over generous. It might be true of course, but is it more likely the extent of any bequest grew over the years with the retelling of the story down the generations?
Secondly, as has been mentioned there would have been no need to go to London to make a claim.
Your g g grandfather would not know of any bequest in the lady’s will until after her death, at which time he would have been contacted by her executors, or by solicitors acting for the executors (the solicitors might well have been her executors).
If she was a titled lady it’s not unlikely that the solicitors dealing with her estate were a London firm (but that’s a guess, obviously).
In any event he would not have needed to travel to London to pursue his inheritance. It would have been common sense for him to ask a local attorney to sort it all out for him.
As you know, wills are a matter of public record once probate is issued, so the key is surely to try and identify the lady concerned, and then obtain a copy of her will. Easier said than done.
Ultimately, if a bequest or legacy is unclaimed, or in the event that your gg grandfather actually declined to accept the bequest (unlikely, but it happens), the property would revert ultimately to the remainder of the estate and pass to the main (residuary) beneficiaries.
So clearly you are researching a possible titled lady’s estate for a death arising between the date of the newspaper article and your gg grandfathers death.
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If it is anything to do with Lord and Lady Coventry, then according to thepeerage.com they died 3 days apart in March 1930.
This is borne out by the probate index, where probates for both are listed in 1930; there's a note of a further grant relating to him in 1931.
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I think the Lady Coventry link is a good one to follow up, even though the dates don’t seem to match up with events.
Thank you. I agree. :)
I have been looking into this, further, and I cannot see how two such similar events could have happened around the same place, at the same time. This must be the story that my ggm knew. She would have been tiny when it happened, and both of her parents had died by the time reached her teens, so it is a case of relying on memories of what she heard, or was told, when she was a child.
Was her father involved? I was told that he was. That's all I can say. He lived in the right place at the right time and was a carter at some stage, but described as ag lab at other times. I have no doubt that any minions, who happened to be about, would have been expected to help - and a cart may have been useful. What I heard was that my ggm was quite certain that the injured woman told him: "I shan't forget you, David Neale."
He would not have needed to go to London for the reading of a will, and this couple didn't die until 1930, anyway. If there was a reward, then the alternatives are that, it was either bequeathed by someone else, who happened to be involved, or that it was not given as part of a will, but as a gift of gratitude from the living.
Alternatively, it may have been an offer that was totally unconnected to the story, but confused in the mind of a child. (However, one wonders how many landed people my gggf might have deserved a reward from.)
If the Coventrys did wish to reward David Neale, and they were very rich with lots of land, then they may have owned a small parcel, somewhere, that they didn't particularly need or want, and which may have been offered to my gggf. Then, he might well have had to go to London to sign for an exchange of Title.
Lots to think about :)
Thanks again for your input :)
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If it is anything to do with Lord and Lady Coventry, then according to thepeerage.com they died 3 days apart in March 1930.
Yes, they must have been a devoted couple :)
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My great grandfather died in Gloucestershire in 1930. He was a modestly prosperous businessman - not even remotely close to landed gentry. When his will was approved in 1931, the terms were published in the Cheltenham Chronicle and Gloucestershire Graphic. Look for a newspaper report on the bequests made by Lord and Lady Coventry.
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Look for a newspaper report on the bequests made by Lord and Lady Coventry.
Thank you. Yes. Good idea. I'll look into that. :)
There may well have been something, though my gggf would have been long dead by then, so maybe that was why he didn't get his bequest, rather than because he was unable to leave his sick wife. It's possible.
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Thank you to all who have helped me with this.
I had never even heard of Lord and Lady Coventry so I doubt that I would ever have known their story without this thread.
I think that there are a number of possibilities, including:
David Neale did help them, and was left a bequest in Lady Coventry's Will, but never received it because he was long dead by the time of her death.
David Neale wasn't forgotten, and was offered a reward (rather than it being in the form of a bequest in Lady Coventry's Will), which may have involved a small parcel of land, which he would have had to sign for at their London solicitors. He refused this offer because he would not leave his dying wife.
David Neale did help them, but the bequest was just a story, either invented or misunderstood.
David Neale lived there at the time, so knew the story and retold it to his family, but was not personally involved.
At least I know more, now. I have read reports of the incident and seen pictures of the people involved. I'm happy with that and very grateful for the help I have received. Thanks again! :) :)
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Yours is a lovely family story even if you never get to the bottom of it all.
I think part of the fun of being an amateur genealogist is to look into these “family traditions” to see if there is any possibility that however unlikely they might be true.
My grandmother had relatives on her mother’s side who were landlords of several pubs over the years in the rough docklands areas south of the Thames (and that bit is true).
She told my mother that one of them bought a baby boy over the counter of his pub from a destitute alcoholic woman, possibly for a bottle of gin, called the baby Tom, and brought him up as his own son.
Oddly enough one of these relatives and his wife did have a son called Thomas, so who knows......?
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Yours is a lovely family story even if you never get to the bottom of it all.
Thank you.
Yes, I am enjoying it :)
one of them bought a baby boy over the counter of his pub from a destitute alcoholic woman.
Not that surprising to me. My mother had a 'great aunt', who was, apparently, given to / taken in by the family as a little girl of two or three. She was very well spoken and well-looked after. Nobody seems to know where she came from. Those who did know were, apparently, sworn to secrecy. I have met her daughter but have never been able to find her origins. :)
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Sorry, do not understand. You have put:
'When she died, she left David Neale a bequest in her will. Apparently, it was quite generous and included land and a mill in Wales. In order to claim it, Alice's father was asked to go to London. This would have been a major journey for him at any time, but, at this particular time, his wife was dying and he would not leave her.'
She must have died whilst he was still alive, but his wife was ill, so the death has to be 1869 at the latest.
Not the Coventry's.
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No, his wife died in 1879. 1869 was when Alice was born:
I knew my great grandmother, even though she was born in 1869, and I remember her well. She died when I was six. (That's her, with me and my mum in the photo.)
Great grandmother Alice and her three younger siblings were orphaned when she was 13. Their mother died first, in 1879, and then their father, in 1883...
Nevertheless, it seems very unlikely that Lady Coventry's last will could have been written as early as 1879. First, according to thepeerage.com she was having children until 1885 and would surely have made sure they were all named in it. (1885 is confirmed by an entry in the GRO index, but I haven't looked for any others.) Second, her executors were two of her children born in 1870 and 1875, so she must have written it at a time when they were known to have the capacity to act.
So if the will is relevant, it must be that it refers to the descendants of David Neale, rather than DN himself.
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Sorry, yes, 1879.
Same puzzlement.
Someone died whilst his wife was ill, 1878, 1879 approximately, so he could not travel to London.
The accident to the 'lady' could have happened when David Neale was a young man, so in the 1860's.
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Sorry, do not understand. You have put:
'When she died, she left David Neale a bequest in her will. ....'
She must have died whilst he was still alive, but his wife was ill, so the death has to be 1869 at the latest.
Not the Coventry's.
This was what I was told but, as I said, I was relying on the memory of a woman who was in her 90s when I remember her and who had been a child at the time of the accident.
I learned about the Coventrys from this thread and their story fits - date and place and details. So, as I noted above, it could have been that there was a bequest in the will, but that David died too early to receive it, or it could have been a reward and not a bequest. Or there could be some other explanation :)
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... it seems very unlikely that Lady Coventry's last will could have been written as early as 1879. ...
Yes, that does seem unlikely. I shall be downloading it from the GRO, once it is ready, to have a look. And her husband's. :)
So if the will is relevant, it must be that it refers to the descendants of David Neale, rather than DN himself.
Could be.
I am just trying to sort out what happened for now :)
Thank you for your input. :)