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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: lynnebro on Wednesday 06 January 21 11:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi
My grandfather’s records are attached.
I need help with
1. Working out all the movements
2. I believe from the dates he was in the WS7 convoy via SAfrica. I would love for him to have been in the Durban section of the convoy, but I think the India bound ships went to Cape Town ( I have a visited Durban a few times with work).
3.There is a huge gap in entries, I am presuming he was with 1st KORR in North Africa.
4 I am aware of his injury - links to sinking of the Princess Marguerite Troopship from Port Said to Famagusta in Cyprus
5. I know he was in Italy, but am not sure if he was back with his regiment. There is a record saying he embarked for an unknown destination ( probably not as intriguing as I think).
6.Finally, I know it mentions being granted leave to Uk, but does he then go back to Italy?
Too many questions, but I thought I’d put them all down.
Huge thanks for any extra information
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The most significant thing about his service is that after the Aug 42 hospitalisation he didn't return to his "parent" regiment. After the Driving and Maintenance course Sep/Nov 42 he was posted to HQ 8th Army where he stayed until he began the discharge process (he didn't go back to Italy) in mid 1945.
The staff of a headquarters in the field was made up of officers and men from almost every regiment under the sun. They wore the uniform of their "parent" unit and their records were administered by them and in hiis case it is a question of knowing where HQ 8th Army was while he was with them Such a HQ had more than one element, you will see "rear HQ" in his record, they also had a "main" and a forward (or tactical).
In outline then he appears to have been with 1KORR until mid 42 when, perhaps as a result of the wounding, he was re-trained as a driver and then employed with 8th Army HQ essentially for the remainder of his service. (the unknown destination in Aug 43 is seen a lot in relation to the invasion of Sicily).
MaxD
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Hi Max
Thank you for the detailed analysis. I had thought he was separated from his regiment, but didn’t realise it lasted throughout the rest of the campaign. I don’t suppose I’ll ever find out where about he was in Italy, though he did have a rosary and I believe he visited the catacombs , so could have been Rome, Naples or Palermo.
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While it would not be beyond the wit of man to trace where HQ 8th Army was in the relevant time frames, we don't know what element of the HQ he belonged to. I was able to find the Christmas 1943 order of battle of Tac HQ showing 14 officers and 197 NCOs and men. This element is by far the smallest element, Rear HQ, which looked after supplies generally speaking, was enormous.
You may get some joy from thishttp://www.warfaremagazine.co.uk/reviews/the-men-behind-monty--the-staff-and-hqs-of-eighth-army-and-21st-army-group/144/
MaxD
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You might like to separate out the query about his convoy to another post with the heading specifically related to convoy matters. This may then attract the attention of those on the forum who know about these things
MaxD
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I will separate the convoy info, thanks for the advice. I’ve also bought a book recommend by the article about Montgomery and his men- including lower ranks. One thing I was told by my Mum, was that my grandfather was with Montgomery. I always took that as a loose comment. Thanks again
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I have added some images from his release book. Do you have any ideas where the dates fit in? I presume he was released from Milan, but then confused by the reference written by Major attached to Austria camp
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The rubber stamps are not easily read in the images you have posted. What are you reading on the stamp next to the Nov 1945 date? I don't see "Austria Camp" anywhere.
Worth noting that the release procedure took place over a period of time and the dates on records appear at different stages of the process. His record shows he left Milan for UK on 7 Dec 1945 arriving home on 10 Dec 1945. The 25 Nov 1945 reference was simply written at a late stage of the his time in Italy.
MaxD
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It does look like "Austria"
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Thanks Shaun J - your clarification agreed.
The vital clues missing from his record are any dates late in 1945 when the reference would suggest he was in Austria. So, was he in Austria in Nov 45 when the reference was written or was he under that "umbrella" and actually still in Milan as the record suggest.
Don't know for sure and would prefer not to guess.
MaxD
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This http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/14/a4463714.shtml will perhaps be of interest with relation to the end of the war and return home.
MaxD
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He was serving in "HQBTA" in November 1945. HQ British Troops Austria, which I think was at Graz - about 500 miles from Milan.
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Excellent spot ShaunJ.
My feeling is that, as so often the case, the "leaving Milan" has more to do with leaving the theatre and should not be interpreted literally.
MaxD
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Max and Shaun, thank you for your insight ( again in Max’s case). I have a lot of reading to do and putting together of an accurate timeline. I am loving the discovery of my grandfather’s journey. I have huge fondness for Italy, but I am not sure he would have, when you think of some of the battles.