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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: david.lyon on Monday 04 January 21 12:19 GMT (UK)

Title: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: david.lyon on Monday 04 January 21 12:19 GMT (UK)
I have hit the biggest brick wall, through DnA testing I have found a blood relative of 148Cm's, her mother Elsie Williams died in june 1988 in Bradford, and her birth date was recorded as 2nd aug 1926, on her daughters birth cert (born Halifax) she recorded her maiden name as Clarke but am unable to find her born on that date, I looked for Elsie's born on that date, none. I looked for Clarkes with and without the E born on that date, nothing, I did a general search of any female born on that date and nothing stands out. so who is Elsie Clarke ?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: nanny jan on Monday 04 January 21 12:24 GMT (UK)
Born somewhere other than England or Wales?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Dundee on Monday 04 January 21 13:01 GMT (UK)
I don't really understand what you mean by not finding anyone born on that date.  Where are you looking?  There are several birth registrations in that quarter with and without middle initials.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: david.lyon on Monday 04 January 21 13:19 GMT (UK)
her death certificate states she was born 02/08/1926, and her children have always understood that was her date of birth.
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Girl Guide on Monday 04 January 21 13:41 GMT (UK)
There are two plain Elsie's in SQ1926 and three with middle initials

Births Sep 1926 
CLARKE    Elsie    Harrison    Houghton    10a   979   
CLARKE    Elsie    Siddall    Sheffield    9c   841    
CLARKE    Elsie Frances    Powell    Mt.Drayton    6a   1066   
CLARKE    Elsie May    Smith    Birmingham S.    6d   347    
CLARKE    Elsie Phyllis    Snelling    Fulham    1a   434

Without the 'e'

Births Sep 1926   
CLARK    Elsie    Morrison    Sunderland    10a   1261    
CLARK    Elsie    Deadman    Ware    3a   1126    
CLARK    Elsie Lilian    Whitrick    Orsett    4a   1006    
CLARK    Elsie Sylvia    Bristow    Bradfield    2c   558

Have you found Elsie's marriage at all?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Girl Guide on Monday 04 January 21 13:51 GMT (UK)
What was the father's name on the daughter's birth certificate?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: david.lyon on Monday 04 January 21 13:57 GMT (UK)
Father was George Williams b1922 Halifax.
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Girl Guide on Monday 04 January 21 14:19 GMT (UK)
What was George's occupation and did George and Elsie have more than one child?  What sort of years are we talking about for child(ren's) birth(s)?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Annie65115 on Monday 04 January 21 22:07 GMT (UK)
It's far from unusual for dates of birth to be wrong. People sometimes shed years off their age when they were alive (or gained them!); and informants for death certificates sometimes get it wrong too.

Ive seen many instances in the 1939 register where the age is out by a year -- and it has to be incorrect as the GRO reference for the relevant birth gives the true year.

Another thought - if Elsie was born in August, her birth could well have been recorded in the final quarter of the year - yes, slightly late, but it happened.

Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Annie65115 on Monday 04 January 21 22:21 GMT (UK)
There is a series of births to Williams children with mmn Clark in Halifax, starting 1949. The spacing
would make me think they are possibly all the same family.

The only George Williams/Elsie Clark marriage on freeBMD that would fit was in Pontypool in 1947 - that timing would again raise the possibility that this is a couple who had their first child/ren within a couple of years of the wedding.

It's a long shot but might this fit?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: chempat on Monday 04 January 21 23:30 GMT (UK)
F M P allows one to search the 1939 using both surnames to see if there is an Elsie, of any birth dates who moves from Clark(e) to Williams - just if you wanted to explore that option.

There might be a candidate in Pontypool but of a totally different birth date, and possibly born with Elsie as a second name.

Added:  So that fits with the suggested marriage, but not with the birthdate at all.
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: Creasegirl on Tuesday 05 January 21 08:37 GMT (UK)
Maybe her birth name was Elisabeth and she just used Elsie as shortened version
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: chempat on Tuesday 05 January 21 09:00 GMT (UK)
Where did her children think she was born, and did they have any uncles, aunts, cousins etc etc?
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: david.lyon on Tuesday 05 January 21 11:46 GMT (UK)
thanks Chempat, have asked that question and am waiting a response, she had 5 children as far as I know 2 already dead.
 
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: chempat on Tuesday 05 January 21 12:10 GMT (UK)
Yes,  I found some family trees on Ancestry.  None had any useful information on Elsie.
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: jonwarrn on Tuesday 05 January 21 12:12 GMT (UK)
Yes,  I found some family trees on Ancestry. 

May also eliminate the Pontypridd marriage (and is wrong George Williams)
Place of birth, as believed to be by the informant, is given on death certs from 1 April 1969
Title: Re: Elsie Williams d1988, who was she?
Post by: david.lyon on Thursday 07 January 21 14:02 GMT (UK)
I have come to the conclusion that George and Elsie did not marry.