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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Rowan Tree on Thursday 31 December 20 12:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
Could anyone help decipher the bride's father on this marriage certificate?
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Lancashire BMD has an opinion.
LAYCOCK * William DALMOR Amy 1872 Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Lancashire Oldham RM/25/84
LAYCOCK * William DEDALMOR Amy 1872 Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Lancashire Oldham RM/25/84
LAYCOCK * William SUTCLIFFE Amy 1872 Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended Lancashire Oldham RM/25/84
I don't think they can be too far off-the-mark
Pauline
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Doesnt help that she is born at sea 1881/1891 Census
Death Reg as Amy Isidore Laycock 1892
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Did they have any kids together?
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1871 census - also born "on the sea" - and in prison in Cheetham - married, aged 26.
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Many thanks, All :)
This is such an odd one for me. Until now, I've not come across a father's name on a marriage certificate without a given/first name. Not sure what the "De" bit represents... Is it part of the surname, part of a given name, a title, an abbreviation, or something else? And the born at sea bit really doesn't help :-\
Interestingly, I've found Amy on the 1871 census in Cheetham Prison.
Rowan Tree
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His first name might be Dl for Daniel?
Debra :D
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Did they have any kids together
Not that I've found. It looks like Amy died in 1892. On the 81 and 91 census, William and Amy don't have any children in their household.
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His first name might be Dl for Daniel
Now that's an interesting thought ::)
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It could be something like De Delmor also.
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It could be something like De Delmor also.
Yes - I think this is my top contender at the moment...
Such an interesting name
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If anyone can read the full article it might give some more info.
LOCAL AND GENERAL.
Passing Bad Money - Yesterday, before W. Sunderland, Esq., Amy Sutcliffe, a fashionably dressed young woman, aged 25, who said she came from Oldham, was charged with uttering base and counterfeit....
22 October 1870 - The Ashton Weekly Reporter, and Stalybridge and Dukinfield Chronicle
Debra :D
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If anyone can read the full article it might give some more info.
LOCAL AND GENERAL.
Passing Bad Money - Yesterday, before W. Sunderland, Esq., Amy Sutcliffe, a fashionably dressed young woman, aged 25, who said she came from Oldham, was charged with uttering base and counterfeit....
22 October 1870 - The Ashton Weekly Reporter, and Stalybridge and Dukinfield Chronicle
This looks fascinating! Thank you.
Do you know how I can access the full article?
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It is on Findmypast.
Debra :D
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It is on Findmypast.
Debra :D
Cheers :)
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Has anyone found her first marriage to Sutcliffe?
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What was the father's occupation? Fruit something?
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Has anyone found her first marriage to Sutcliffe?
I've been trying to find it but have drawn a blank so far :-\
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What was the father's occupation? Fruit something?
Father's occupation is Fruit Planter :)
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Manchester Prison records list her husband as John, 23 Cross Street, Oldham. She had one child living. Her birthplace "on the sea". Religion RC.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FMAN%2F4510507%2F00039.JOIN&parentid=GBPRS%2FA%2F62004165%2F1
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FMAN%2F4510430%2F00138.JOIN&parentid=GBPRS%2FA%2F62217772%2F1
23 Cross Street doesn't appear to be listed in the 1871 census.
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If she was born at sea maybe her father was a mariner at the time or foreign, hence the possible name beginning DE something..
In my town which used to be a busy port, many children I taught had Portuguese fathers who sailed in regularly on the cargo boats. Some settled here.
Pat
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If it is Delmar, that means "of the sea" !
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Perhaps this is the child:
SUTCLIFFE, AMY ISADORE mmn ROTHWELL
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 682
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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Cant find her in 1871 but in 1881 is with a Bolton or Belton Family from memory.
EDIT down as adopted daughter.
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There's also this baptism in Eccles in 1864:
Amy Wilson Sutcliffe daughter of John (a mariner) and Amy. Born 14 May 1863
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2960/images/40365_293605-00869
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Manchester Prison records list her husband as John, 23 Cross Street, Oldham. She had one child living. Her birthplace "on the sea". Religion RC.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FMAN%2F4510507%2F00039.JOIN&parentid=GBPRS%2FA%2F62004165%2F1
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FMAN%2F4510430%2F00138.JOIN&parentid=GBPRS%2FA%2F62217772%2F1
23 Cross Street doesn't appear to be listed in the 1871 census.
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you! :)
I've wanted to be able to pin Amy's first husband down for awhile now.
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If she was born at sea maybe her father was a mariner at the time or foreign, hence the possible name beginning DE something..
In my town which used to be a busy port, many children I taught had Portuguese fathers who sailed in regularly on the cargo boats. Some settled here.
Thanks, Pat - this is very interesting :)
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If it is Delmar, that means "of the sea" !
No way! You couldn't make it up! Love it :)
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Loving all these brilliant finds. I'm racing to plug my laptop in so I can get tree updating :D
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It looks like the younger Amy married a William SARGINSON;
1887 - Q3
Salford
Amy Isadora Sutcliffe to William Sarginson
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Marriage: 3 July 1887 St Clement, Salford, Lancashire
William Sarginson - 24, Miller, Bachelor, 62 Nashville Street
Amy Isidora Sutcliffe - 23, Spinster, 62 Nashville Street
Groom's Father: Thomas Sarginson, Mill Wright
Bride's Father: John Sutcliffe, Lime Burner
Witness: Adam Smith and Sarah Ann Smith
Married by Banns
Notes Bride signed Amy Isadora
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I dont think that Amy Isadore is the daughter of 'our' Amy and John
1844 a John Sutcliffe married Hannah Rothwell
1863 Amy Isadore Sutcliffe was born mmn Rothwell
1863 Amy Wilson Sutcliffe was born bap Eccles 1864 parent's John and Amy
1870 Amy Sutcliffe was in prison
1871 John Sutcliffe was in prison
1871-1972 this time John Sutcliffe must have died
1872 Amy married William Laycock
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Certainly Amy b 1863 cant be the one as she is too young to be on her second marriage in 1872.
Interesting the name Rothwell keeps appearing.
There is a marriage on 5/7/1760 of Henry Rothwell to Damaris Sutcliff at Wardleworth Rochdale. (Does Damaris mean "of the sea")
Could Amy have been illegit and put an incorrect name for her father - might it be De Demaris?
I realise its a bit too early to be Amy's parents but possibly worth bearing in mind.
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Certainly Amy b 1863 cant be the one as she is too young to be on her second marriage in 1872.
Could Amy have been illegit
If I'm following correctly, it would be Amy Jnr' mother who was on her 2nd marriage in 1872
I, like everyone else have not found a/the 1st marriage of Amy Snr to John Sutcliffe
I think it's very possible Amy Snr was illegitimate as well as Amy Jnr?
Annie
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It's the older of the two Amy's who was on her 2nd marriage with William Laycock (1st marriage to John Sutcliffe).
I believe the younger of the two Amy's only married once and this was to William Sarginson.
If the two Amy's aren't mother and daughter, and the mother's maiden name suggests they're not, then that's a big and frustrating coincidence. Hmmm. Not sure what to do with this. I'm finding the different pieces of evidence contradictory. On one hand, it looks like the two Amy's are mother and daughter (the baptism and prison record seems to point in this direction) but on the other hand, the maiden name of Rothwell plus the 1844 Hannah Rothwell marriage seem to say otherwise.
:-\
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I dont think that Amy Isadore is the daughter of 'our' Amy and John
1844 a John Sutcliffe married Hannah Rothwell
1863 Amy Isadore Sutcliffe was born mmn Rothwell
1863 Amy Wilson Sutcliffe was born bap Eccles 1864 parent's John and Amy
I'm with MoK...
If any is correct it seems this one from Shaun although their marriage seems to be illusive...
"There's also this baptism in Eccles in 1864:
Amy Wilson Sutcliffe daughter of John (a mariner) and Amy. Born 14 May 1863"
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2960/images/40365_293605-00869
Annie
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I dont think that Amy Isadore is the daughter of 'our' Amy and John
1844 a John Sutcliffe married Hannah Rothwell
1863 Amy Isadore Sutcliffe was born mmn Rothwell
These are not the parents of Amy Isadore. They were married in Halifax, had their children there and are still there in 1871.
Debra :D
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who do you think are her parents then? at Amy Isadora's wedding her father's name if given as John Sutcliffe, and at her birth mnn Rothwell if this is correct-
this is a confusing post. we dont even really know that Amy Wilson Sutcliffe 1863 is the daughter of Amy and John Sutcliffe (first husband who was in prison in 1871) the first marriage between John and Amy not found. if John was in prison in 1871 and Amy remarried in 1872 this was might quick, where was her daughter Amy Wilson if indeed this is her daughter, I have found nothing further about Amy Wilson Sutcliffe after the census when an Amy Sutcliffe is with the Boltons as adoptive daughter. when did John die? so many unanswered ????
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Nobody has posted any info. on John in prison i.e. details or a link?
What was his age, does it state an occ?
I looked at deaths 1871 - 1872 on freebmd & from what I recall, 1 was of similar age to Amy the rest were a lot older but without knowing his age it was hopeless.
Annie
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Why do people think husband John Sutcliffe was in prison in 1871? Did I miss something?
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vote from: ShaunJ on Yesterday at 12:15
Manchester Prison records list her husband as John, 23 Cross Street, Oldham. She had one child living. Her birthplace "on the sea". Religion RC.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FMAN%2F4510507%2F00039.JOIN&parentid=GBPRS%2FA%2F62004165%2F1
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FMAN%2F4510430%2F00138.JOIN&parentid=GBPRS%2FA%2F62217772%2F1
23 Cross Street doesn't appear to be listed in the 1871 census.
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you! :)
This is where we get John is in prison Manchester
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Manchester Prison records list her husband as John, 23 Cross Street, Oldham. She had one child living. Her birthplace "on the sea". Religion RC.
That is from Amy's 1870 prison records. There is nothing to suggest that husband John was also in prison that year, or in 1871.
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If people had read the link for Amy like I did, they'd have seen the info. regarding her husband being John.
I wondered why I'd missed him also being in prison & couldn't fathom why nothing was posted about him...that's because he wasn't!
Annie
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I'm still very thankful for people's posts and help.
I'm sorry I'm not being of more help myself.
It is a tricky one but more information is being gradually teased out.
I've not personally seen evidence of John Sutcliffe being in prison, just Amy Sutcliffe.
I've not yet found any hints of a marriage for John and Amy, or any death or census entry for John. I'd considered John and Amy were never legally married, or Amy was a bigamist...
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I've just ordered the 1863 Amy Isadore Sutcliffe birth certificate. Fingers crossed it'll help either rule in, or conclusively rule out this Amy as the other Amy's daughter.
Looking forward to posting the details off the certificate :)
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I've just ordered the 1863 Amy Isadore Sutcliffe birth certificate. Fingers crossed it'll help either rule in, or conclusively rule out this Amy as the other Amy's daughter.
The birth certificate has arrived! This is what we've got;
14th May 1863
11 Trafford Terrace, Moss Lane, Hulme
Amy Isadore - Girl
Father: John Sutcliffe - Mariner
Mother: Amy Sutcliffe formerly Rothwell
Informant: John Sutcliffe, Father, 11 Trafford Terrace, Moss Lane, Hulme.
Registered: 10th June 1863