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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Cad169 on Wednesday 30 December 20 22:55 GMT (UK)
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Hello Everyone!
Fairly new to all this, but have already found a ton of information, and now ready to actually formulate the family tree. I guess this doesn’t come up too often, but I’m finding it a little difficult due to an….err…. a hiccup in the family and I’m not sure how to order a couple of family members.
Essentially there was a rape in the family where a father raped the daughter, resulting in the next in line. I guess you could say a generation was skipped, i.e., a Father and Grandfather for instance would be the same person! How then do you link everyone?
Any help would be appreciated.
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Welcome to Rootschat Cad :)
Probably not the first time that has happened in a family.
I've not had this in any family that I have researched. I think I would probably list the names, i.e. father, daughter, child. Elsewhere I would make a note of the exact parentage of the child. Technically the child is illegitimate as the mother wasn't married.
Not very nice to discover that was it. :( However if we wish to be accurate with the family tree we can't airbrush out unpleasant parts of it.
Was the child adopted? Did the daughter marry at all?
Maybe other Rootschatters have had this and can tell you how they recorded it.
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Thank you so much for your reply.
As all the participants (apart from me!) are deceased, I guess I can explain further. The story goes that my fathers (let's call him Joe) mother was raped by her stepfather. I have obtained both my fathers and his mothers (let's call her Mary) birth certificates, and both have the father's name missing. Joe was put into Dr Barnardos in 1922, as soon as he was born.
I doubt I can ever prove that Mary was Joe's biological daughter, but as Marys Mother married Joe only eight months after Mary was born, and they lived in the same household at the time, it's likely that she possibly was. The rape took place when Mary was 22 (Joe's wife of twenty years had died two years previously), so Mary may have grown up believing that Joe was her biological Father.
There are several trees mentioning Joe, Mary, and Marys wife.....quite extensive trees. Joe apparently molested several of his daughters. One, of which had to be sent to Australia to escape, and another......I have a charge sheet outlining his sentence to prison for five years for the molestation and rape of a minor under thirteen. This is three years after the birth of my father.
Not one tree mentions this, nor is my father on any of the existing trees. It is as you say like my whole line has been airbrushed from history!
Ha! I need to write the book :)
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Oh dear, sounds like 'Joe' was an unpleasant man. I wonder what happened in his life that made him become a molester of ladies?
Not too surprising that other tree owners have been economical with their information. Family history
has to be accepted for what it is warts and all.
Bit like all the hoo ha over slave trading. People trying to remove any references to it. History is always going to contain horrid bits but that doesn't mean we should try to airbrush them out. Just accept it for what it was at the time and move on.
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It would be amazing to speak to someone who actually knew someone who knew him. He was only my Grandfather after all! Was he a nasty man? History would appear to make him so, but without the things he did, I wouldn't be here, nor, would my children....ha! and I think we've done some pretty beautiful things in our lifetimes so far.
I do wonder though.....are Joe's brothers my Uncles and Aunts....or Great Uncles and Aunts? The Uncles and Aunts I knew growing up were 'Marys' children, who would have been my fathers step sisters and brothers!
It gets all so confusing :D
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It can get confusing working out relationships ::)
If Joe is your grandfather he is two generations above you. Yourself, your parents, any parents siblings will be aunts and uncles. So that means that any of Joe's siblings will be great uncles and aunts.
Here is a chart that will give you some idea of relationships
https://www.familysearch.org/blog/en/cousin-chart/
There are others that can be found on the internet.
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In the scenario described joe would also be the father so siblings would also be aunts and uncles and I think DNA would show their relationship as closer
DNA may also show that joe was not Mary s biological father if other descendants of the birth father have tested
I can understand that family members knowing of these potential relationships would probably avoid taking a test.
have you considered it cad169 ?
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I've come across all sorts in my family research, but I cant say I've found that. It doesn't mean it never happened though.
I've found first cousins marrying, a few illegitimate births and even a murder, one brother taking a hammer to the other's head and being hung for his sins. Others getting 6 months hard labour for beating their wives.
I keep a record and don't hide anything. Some relatives like it included, some don't.
I've one relative who was going to include the relevant branch in her memoirs until she looked through the info I gave her, then decided not to, I found that a little sad tbh.
What ever happened in past generations, it's part of our history.
I've written a brief history of the direct line too which is standing at about 40 pages so far, lots more to go!
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I have found a similar occurrence in one of my Tree's. I was not sure how best to tackle either, although I am not sure it was rape. But definitely two relatives interacting (I will add this is not on my direct line).
One sister had a son, one had a daughter. I don't know how it happened but.. they married and had children, I investigated the line and found out there is actually living descendants. One of them has a tree on Ancestry, but never replied (Not to question them about the subject at hand but to see what they had on their tree as theirs is private).
I know they have read my message, I mentioned one of the individuals names in my message, maybe they knew what I knew and that was the reason for not replying... who knows!
I have kept it on my tree, but removed the line that descends to the living, although my tree is as private as it can be so no one could view it anyhow, just out of respect for them. I can understand why someone may wish to avoid it being discovered elsewhere.
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One sister had a son, one had a daughter. I don't know how it happened but.. they married and had children...
If this was in England then it was perfectly legal and nothing to be ashamed about. First cousin marriages are relatively common, and quite a few of us have one or more in our trees. From an English perspective it's a completely different situation from the one that's concerning Cad169.
(Note that although cousin marriages are allowed by the law of the land, some individuals might not approve, and Roman Catholics need/needed special permission from the church to marry cousins closer than a certain degree.)
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Hi CAD169.
Welcome to RootsChat. This is a wonderful site with many amazing people who so generously help and contribute.
Yours can be a very sticky situation when posting a tree. In my family I've encountered people who have deliberately omitted "uncomfortable" facts, others who ignore your queries because they touch on confronting realities, and all sorts of sloppy or just plain wrong "evidence" to justify their just plain wrong trees.
Can I suggest that you stay true to what you believe? Do your research thoroughly and post unarguable evidence. Be prepared for flak, but stick to the facts. I passionately believe that what we are all doing with family research is informing and educating future generations. The truth is uncomfortable, but wise heads will bless you for being honest.
One further suggestion: Have you tried the Trove site? Wonderful access to old newspapers. You might find more information there.
Good luck, and welcome aboard!
Peter
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Hi Peter, and all that have replied.
Thank you so much, it has been a real education! I feel as though I definitely want the truth to be told. It has slightly annoyed me that there are a fair few trees that have Joe and his siblings and sons and daughters, with absolutely no mention of my father as being a son of his.
This could be because strangely, I cannot seem to find a great deal of information on my father prior to his wedding in 1954. I have his birth certificate (no father mentioned). He was born at St Pancras Infirmary and given straight to Dr Barnardo’s. Joined the army just prior to war breaking out. Re-enlisted in 45 till 46/7, but I would love to know what happened to him between 1947 and 55…..there doesn’t appear to be any Electoral info, and there is no one else alive who could give me any info!
I’ll keep trying!
Thanks, everyone.