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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: tonip on Tuesday 29 December 20 18:47 GMT (UK)

Title: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Tuesday 29 December 20 18:47 GMT (UK)
Hi all, my grandparents were married during WW2 in Jerusalem. He was with the RAF and she was with the WATS. In their wedding photos there are a couple of men who do not appear to have any badges etc on their uniforms. I have been hoping to find out who one of them is and was wondering if the uniform gave any hint at all? Or if the lack of badges actually makes it unlikely I can find out more?

I have attached one of the photos with the man in question beside the bride. He does not appear to fit age or look for any of her male relatives so I am not sure why he is in the bridal party photo holding the brides hand?

Thanks for any suggestions!
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 30 December 20 15:35 GMT (UK)
He is in the army rather than the RAF.  They may all have been members of a bi-/tri-service outfit and he perhaps her superior.  The man on the right is in the RAF.  You could apply for her records which would show what unit she was in at the time which may help a little,

MaxD
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: mmm45 on Wednesday 30 December 20 17:05 GMT (UK)
have you checked marriage certificate see if witnesses are listed ? He is an army corporal

Ady
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: medpat on Wednesday 30 December 20 17:24 GMT (UK)
Do you mean she was in the WAAFs?
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: guest141721 on Wednesday 30 December 20 19:35 GMT (UK)
WATS, Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service, though usually just known as the ATS
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Wednesday 30 December 20 20:15 GMT (UK)
He is in the army rather than the RAF.  They may all have been members of a bi-/tri-service outfit and he perhaps her superior.  The man on the right is in the RAF.  You could apply for her records which would show what unit she was in at the time which may help a little,

MaxD

Thanks for your reply!  The records I have say that my grandfather was RAF and grandmother was with 512 Company Auxiliary Territorial Service. So, the man in question is army? Would it fit for him to be an officer with that unit? Would it have been acceptable for them to be holding hands?
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: medpat on Wednesday 30 December 20 20:17 GMT (UK)
that is the ATS. The three women's services were


WRENS - Navy
ATS - Army
WAAF - Air Force


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_Territorial_Service
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Wednesday 30 December 20 20:20 GMT (UK)
have you checked marriage certificate see if witnesses are listed ? He is an army corporal

Ady

Hi there, yes I have the certificate. I haven't managed to find any other records of the male witness, military or otherwise. Having said that, looking at the photo I feel like the younger guy is more likely to be the best man. This feels like a photo of the bridal couple, the bestman, bridesmaid and an unknown older guy holding the brides hand...  :) There is one uncle who might be the right age  but he didn't serve in WW2 that I can find so it seems unlikely he would be there in uniform.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 30 December 20 21:41 GMT (UK)
Welcome to rootschat tonip.

I can’t add anything useful, but I think this photo is wonderful! Even if the army chap was a relative, it would still be odd for him to be holding his female relative’s hand in her wedding photo .... or even if this was a split second touch unintentionally captured by the photographer - still odd ... and strange that they had the photo printed rather than choose one where he wasn’t touching the bride’s hand.

I am letting my imagination run away with me here.  ;)

Did the army chap appear in any other photos, wedding or otherwise?
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 30 December 20 21:42 GMT (UK)
Yes, army guy looks a bit out of place doesn’t he?  ;D
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: SiGr on Wednesday 30 December 20 21:54 GMT (UK)
I note the Army Corporal has his rank badge on his right arm only. I wonder if that might help give a clue to what Regiment or Corps he was in ? I can't answer that myself but the norm was for chevrons to be on both arms. Just a thought.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: SiGr on Wednesday 30 December 20 21:56 GMT (UK)
By the way, you mention you have other photos. Is the Army man in any of those ?
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Wednesday 30 December 20 22:47 GMT (UK)
Welcome to rootschat tonip.

I can’t add anything useful, but I think this photo is wonderful! Even if the army chap was a relative, it would still be odd for him to be holding his female relative’s hand in her wedding photo .... or even if this was a split second touch unintentionally captured by the photographer - still odd ... and strange that they had the photo printed rather than choose one where he wasn’t touching the bride’s hand.

I am letting my imagination run away with me here.  ;)

Did the army chap appear in any other photos, wedding or otherwise?

There are 2 wedding photos that we know of (both held at the Library of Congress due to them having the full collection of the photographer!). The other one is a larger group, I'm guessing all the people at the wedding - all look to be military.  In both photos he is standing next to the bride and in both he is holding her hand....it is intriguing!
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Wednesday 30 December 20 22:50 GMT (UK)
I note the Army Corporal has his rank badge on his right arm only. I wonder if that might help give a clue to what Regiment or Corps he was in ? I can't answer that myself but the norm was for chevrons to be on both arms. Just a thought.

I hadn't noticed that, thanks! Hopefully it may mean something to someone.  Here is the other photo we have of the wedding.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 31 December 20 11:13 GMT (UK)

There are 2 wedding photos that we know of (both held at the Library of Congress due to them having the full collection of the photographer!). The other one is a larger group, I'm guessing all the people at the wedding - all look to be military.  In both photos he is standing next to the bride and in both he is holding her hand....it is intriguing!

 :o What?
Why? How very curious.

Is there anyone in the family who may be able to offer an explanation? Presuming both of your grandparents are deceased, perhaps a close relative of your grandparents or  their children?
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: guest141721 on Thursday 31 December 20 11:52 GMT (UK)
What was your grandmother's age when she was married? Did she have any other relatives who might have been at the wedding, older brother, father even? One would imagine that only a close relative would hold her hand.

Hope you get the question sorted out.

Good luck and Happy New Year
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: medpat on Thursday 31 December 20 14:26 GMT (UK)
They were on an overseas posting so only friends of the couple amongst serving personnel would be there. He could have given the bride away.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 31 December 20 15:03 GMT (UK)
They were on an overseas posting so only friends of the couple amongst serving personnel would be there. He could have given the bride away.

I agree...that was my first thought.

Carol
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 31 December 20 16:37 GMT (UK)
Not that it helps a great deal but 512 Company ATS was in the Middle East 1943/1945 (war diaries at the National Archives).

MaxD
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 31 December 20 22:43 GMT (UK)
They were on an overseas posting so only friends of the couple amongst serving personnel would be there. He could have given the bride away.

That makes sense.  :)

(Though it still doesn’t explain the hand holding)  ;D
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: barryd on Thursday 31 December 20 23:38 GMT (UK)

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/ats-and-waaf-in-world-war-ii

Are they holding hands?
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Friday 01 January 21 01:02 GMT (UK)

There are 2 wedding photos that we know of (both held at the Library of Congress due to them having the full collection of the photographer!). The other one is a larger group, I'm guessing all the people at the wedding - all look to be military.  In both photos he is standing next to the bride and in both he is holding her hand....it is intriguing!

 :o What?
Why? How very curious.

Is there anyone in the family who may be able to offer an explanation? Presuming both of your grandparents are deceased, perhaps a close relative of your grandparents or  their children?

No one of their generation is left alive and everyone I have spoken to is surprised. We had one of the photos all along so could have asked Grandma about it except nobody noticed until the second photo surfaced after their deaths.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: tonip on Friday 01 January 21 01:05 GMT (UK)
What was your grandmother's age when she was married? Did she have any other relatives who might have been at the wedding, older brother, father even? One would imagine that only a close relative would hold her hand.

Hope you get the question sorted out.

Good luck and Happy New Year

She was 22 yrs old. The only male relative it could remotely be is an uncle, but I can't find any sign that he served in WW2, and there isn't much of a resemblance. It is likely to stay a mystery I suspect.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: MaecW on Saturday 02 January 21 21:39 GMT (UK)
I'm still interested that "Army Man" seems to be wearing corporal's stripes but only on his right arm. As far as I am aware no units of either the British Army or the RAF followed this practice apart from certain regiments when in Dress Uniform only, which is not the case here.  Can any of our resident experts throw any light on this ? Could our man belong to a non-British or Commonwealth force (Polish, Free-French etc.) ? Could he be a military hospital patient out for the ceremony, which might explain the hand-hold if he is a bit fragile ?  Any other thoughts ?
Maec
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: medpat on Saturday 02 January 21 21:47 GMT (UK)
I wondered if he had sight problems due to injury
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: pc99 on Sunday 03 January 21 10:23 GMT (UK)
I'm still interested that "Army Man" seems to be wearing corporal's stripes but only on his right arm. As far as I am aware no units of either the British Army or the RAF followed this practice apart from certain regiments when in Dress Uniform only, which is not the case here.  Can any of our resident experts throw any light on this ? Could our man belong to a non-British or Commonwealth force (Polish, Free-French etc.) ? Could he be a military hospital patient out for the ceremony, which might explain the hand-hold if he is a bit fragile ?  Any other thoughts ?
Maec
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: pc99 on Sunday 03 January 21 10:25 GMT (UK)
You can see the stripes on his left arm in the second photo.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: MaecW on Sunday 03 January 21 11:18 GMT (UK)
No I can't, not even in blow-up !
By "his right arm" I mean "his right" as opposed to the arm on the right hand side looking at the photo !

PS : Medpat
I wondered about sight too but he seems able to focus on the camera OK in both shots, not that that necessarily means he could see it.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: Brewins girl on Sunday 10 January 21 16:08 GMT (UK)
I do so wish people wouldn't put this sort of photo on the site* - I now can't stop wondering what the story was. Intriguing. Are you sure it wasn't her father?

(* I'm joking - I actually enjoy these sorts of mysteries, but it just stops me from what I'm supposed to be doing!)

I think someone else has suggested trying to find their marriage certificates or marriage record. I do hope you are able to solve this mystery.
Title: Re: WW2 British uniform question
Post by: John915 on Monday 11 January 21 21:33 GMT (UK)
Good evening,

NCO's chevrons were worn on both sleeves of service dress and greatcoats. On battledress and shirts on right arm only in my time as per dress regs 1950. I am not sure whether that goes for dress regs 1934 as well which is what they would come under.

The 2nd photo shows more army personnel than RAF, another corporal on left of photo and all the men in back row. The chap holding the brides hand has a flash on his upper arm with lettering but unable to read it.

John915