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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: tonip on Tuesday 29 December 20 18:47 GMT (UK)
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Hi all, my grandparents were married during WW2 in Jerusalem. He was with the RAF and she was with the WATS. In their wedding photos there are a couple of men who do not appear to have any badges etc on their uniforms. I have been hoping to find out who one of them is and was wondering if the uniform gave any hint at all? Or if the lack of badges actually makes it unlikely I can find out more?
I have attached one of the photos with the man in question beside the bride. He does not appear to fit age or look for any of her male relatives so I am not sure why he is in the bridal party photo holding the brides hand?
Thanks for any suggestions!
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He is in the army rather than the RAF. They may all have been members of a bi-/tri-service outfit and he perhaps her superior. The man on the right is in the RAF. You could apply for her records which would show what unit she was in at the time which may help a little,
MaxD
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have you checked marriage certificate see if witnesses are listed ? He is an army corporal
Ady
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Do you mean she was in the WAAFs?
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WATS, Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service, though usually just known as the ATS
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He is in the army rather than the RAF. They may all have been members of a bi-/tri-service outfit and he perhaps her superior. The man on the right is in the RAF. You could apply for her records which would show what unit she was in at the time which may help a little,
MaxD
Thanks for your reply! The records I have say that my grandfather was RAF and grandmother was with 512 Company Auxiliary Territorial Service. So, the man in question is army? Would it fit for him to be an officer with that unit? Would it have been acceptable for them to be holding hands?
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that is the ATS. The three women's services were
WRENS - Navy
ATS - Army
WAAF - Air Force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_Territorial_Service
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have you checked marriage certificate see if witnesses are listed ? He is an army corporal
Ady
Hi there, yes I have the certificate. I haven't managed to find any other records of the male witness, military or otherwise. Having said that, looking at the photo I feel like the younger guy is more likely to be the best man. This feels like a photo of the bridal couple, the bestman, bridesmaid and an unknown older guy holding the brides hand... :) There is one uncle who might be the right age but he didn't serve in WW2 that I can find so it seems unlikely he would be there in uniform.
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Welcome to rootschat tonip.
I can’t add anything useful, but I think this photo is wonderful! Even if the army chap was a relative, it would still be odd for him to be holding his female relative’s hand in her wedding photo .... or even if this was a split second touch unintentionally captured by the photographer - still odd ... and strange that they had the photo printed rather than choose one where he wasn’t touching the bride’s hand.
I am letting my imagination run away with me here. ;)
Did the army chap appear in any other photos, wedding or otherwise?
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Yes, army guy looks a bit out of place doesn’t he? ;D
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I note the Army Corporal has his rank badge on his right arm only. I wonder if that might help give a clue to what Regiment or Corps he was in ? I can't answer that myself but the norm was for chevrons to be on both arms. Just a thought.
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By the way, you mention you have other photos. Is the Army man in any of those ?
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Welcome to rootschat tonip.
I can’t add anything useful, but I think this photo is wonderful! Even if the army chap was a relative, it would still be odd for him to be holding his female relative’s hand in her wedding photo .... or even if this was a split second touch unintentionally captured by the photographer - still odd ... and strange that they had the photo printed rather than choose one where he wasn’t touching the bride’s hand.
I am letting my imagination run away with me here. ;)
Did the army chap appear in any other photos, wedding or otherwise?
There are 2 wedding photos that we know of (both held at the Library of Congress due to them having the full collection of the photographer!). The other one is a larger group, I'm guessing all the people at the wedding - all look to be military. In both photos he is standing next to the bride and in both he is holding her hand....it is intriguing!
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I note the Army Corporal has his rank badge on his right arm only. I wonder if that might help give a clue to what Regiment or Corps he was in ? I can't answer that myself but the norm was for chevrons to be on both arms. Just a thought.
I hadn't noticed that, thanks! Hopefully it may mean something to someone. Here is the other photo we have of the wedding.
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There are 2 wedding photos that we know of (both held at the Library of Congress due to them having the full collection of the photographer!). The other one is a larger group, I'm guessing all the people at the wedding - all look to be military. In both photos he is standing next to the bride and in both he is holding her hand....it is intriguing!
:o What?
Why? How very curious.
Is there anyone in the family who may be able to offer an explanation? Presuming both of your grandparents are deceased, perhaps a close relative of your grandparents or their children?
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What was your grandmother's age when she was married? Did she have any other relatives who might have been at the wedding, older brother, father even? One would imagine that only a close relative would hold her hand.
Hope you get the question sorted out.
Good luck and Happy New Year
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They were on an overseas posting so only friends of the couple amongst serving personnel would be there. He could have given the bride away.
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They were on an overseas posting so only friends of the couple amongst serving personnel would be there. He could have given the bride away.
I agree...that was my first thought.
Carol
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Not that it helps a great deal but 512 Company ATS was in the Middle East 1943/1945 (war diaries at the National Archives).
MaxD
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They were on an overseas posting so only friends of the couple amongst serving personnel would be there. He could have given the bride away.
That makes sense. :)
(Though it still doesn’t explain the hand holding) ;D
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https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/ats-and-waaf-in-world-war-ii
Are they holding hands?
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There are 2 wedding photos that we know of (both held at the Library of Congress due to them having the full collection of the photographer!). The other one is a larger group, I'm guessing all the people at the wedding - all look to be military. In both photos he is standing next to the bride and in both he is holding her hand....it is intriguing!
:o What?
Why? How very curious.
Is there anyone in the family who may be able to offer an explanation? Presuming both of your grandparents are deceased, perhaps a close relative of your grandparents or their children?
No one of their generation is left alive and everyone I have spoken to is surprised. We had one of the photos all along so could have asked Grandma about it except nobody noticed until the second photo surfaced after their deaths.
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What was your grandmother's age when she was married? Did she have any other relatives who might have been at the wedding, older brother, father even? One would imagine that only a close relative would hold her hand.
Hope you get the question sorted out.
Good luck and Happy New Year
She was 22 yrs old. The only male relative it could remotely be is an uncle, but I can't find any sign that he served in WW2, and there isn't much of a resemblance. It is likely to stay a mystery I suspect.
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I'm still interested that "Army Man" seems to be wearing corporal's stripes but only on his right arm. As far as I am aware no units of either the British Army or the RAF followed this practice apart from certain regiments when in Dress Uniform only, which is not the case here. Can any of our resident experts throw any light on this ? Could our man belong to a non-British or Commonwealth force (Polish, Free-French etc.) ? Could he be a military hospital patient out for the ceremony, which might explain the hand-hold if he is a bit fragile ? Any other thoughts ?
Maec
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I wondered if he had sight problems due to injury
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I'm still interested that "Army Man" seems to be wearing corporal's stripes but only on his right arm. As far as I am aware no units of either the British Army or the RAF followed this practice apart from certain regiments when in Dress Uniform only, which is not the case here. Can any of our resident experts throw any light on this ? Could our man belong to a non-British or Commonwealth force (Polish, Free-French etc.) ? Could he be a military hospital patient out for the ceremony, which might explain the hand-hold if he is a bit fragile ? Any other thoughts ?
Maec
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You can see the stripes on his left arm in the second photo.
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No I can't, not even in blow-up !
By "his right arm" I mean "his right" as opposed to the arm on the right hand side looking at the photo !
PS : Medpat
I wondered about sight too but he seems able to focus on the camera OK in both shots, not that that necessarily means he could see it.
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I do so wish people wouldn't put this sort of photo on the site* - I now can't stop wondering what the story was. Intriguing. Are you sure it wasn't her father?
(* I'm joking - I actually enjoy these sorts of mysteries, but it just stops me from what I'm supposed to be doing!)
I think someone else has suggested trying to find their marriage certificates or marriage record. I do hope you are able to solve this mystery.
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Good evening,
NCO's chevrons were worn on both sleeves of service dress and greatcoats. On battledress and shirts on right arm only in my time as per dress regs 1950. I am not sure whether that goes for dress regs 1934 as well which is what they would come under.
The 2nd photo shows more army personnel than RAF, another corporal on left of photo and all the men in back row. The chap holding the brides hand has a flash on his upper arm with lettering but unable to read it.
John915