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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: RobbityBob on Thursday 17 December 20 05:32 GMT (UK)
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My gg.grandfather John Craig (18.10.1829-26.7.1894) came to Australia in 1850 and was a successful flax farmer in Victoria, Aus. John's father William Craig was apparently flax farming at Gortree Ireland and I imagine eldest son John was a great help to him.
Searching Griffiths Valuation, I have found records for William Craig at 2 different Gortree locations with flax mills etc nearby. My question is which Gortree?
- 33 acres at Gortree, Clondermot
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation -- sheet 14, position 38
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/tirkeeran/clondermot/gortree/
- 12 perches at Tullyannan Glebe (adjacent to another Gortree township), Donegal
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation -- sheet 54-5, position 11
http://donegalgenealogy.com/allsaintsgv.htm
https://www.townlands.ie/donegal/raphoe-north/allsaints/castleforward/gortree/
I'm definitely leaning towards number 1 Clondermot because the land size, but I also know that John successfully grew flax in a home garden for test/demo purposes.
Which option would you pick? Other ideas?
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Most farmers in Ireland grew a combination of crops (oats, barley, hay and potatoes being common). It’s unlikely that the whole farm was given over to flax. And crop rotation requires some variation otherwise you exhaust the soil.
Rather than more or less guessing, I’d research both farms forward, using the Valuation Revision records and statutory marriage & death records to see if either John remained in Ireland. That may tell you whether you have the right farm. If William dies and the farm passes to John, then you know it isn’t the right farm. Likewise if there’s a John who marries and is still in Ireland post 1850.
Do you have your John’s mother’s name from an Australian marriage or death certificate? In which case have you tried to find her death, as that could tell you where the family lived.
What denomination were the Craig family? Have you searched church records in Ireland (the relevant parishes are All Saints for Donegal and Clondermot for Co. Londonderry) for your William’s baptism.
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Thankyou for those suggestions Elwyn. I'll reply to them in order below.
- I hadnt thought about multiple crops but that makes sense. In Australia John was farming a number of crops with flax being just one of them; others included hay, potatoes, maize and peas.
- William's farm did not pass to John. John came to Australia in 1850, married in 1863 and died in Aus in 1894 (aged 64). He never returned to Ireland. He was the eldest of 3 children, his two siblings (William Jnr and Susan) came to Aus together in 1858 and also died here. It appears that his parents never left Ireland.
- I have limited information on John's parents. His father William was born 27.7.1810 (unverified) and I don't know his date of death. His mother is Sarah Semple Brown born 1807 and died at Gortree 11.2.1867. The death notice (see attached) mentions she died at her residence at Gortree and it implies that husband Wm was still alive.
- William and Sarah's denomination is Presbyterian I think, as John is listed as Presb in the shipping register when he emigrated. I have an AncestryUK subscription and I've searched again just now but still cant find any birth or baptism record for John (or Ernest John as he is sometimes called) via official or parish records. I tried searching via his record and also using the card catalog - no luck either way.
I'll keep hunting. Any further ideas welcomed.
copyright image removed
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Sarah’s death is on the GRONI website as being registered in Londonderry. Those records only contain deaths in what is now Northern Ireland, so I’d assume your family lived at the Co. Londonderry Gortree. You have to pay to view deaths for the years 1864 to 1870. You can view the original certificate on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk
You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate. The certificate should confirm the county and townland for you.
William Craig death 1887:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1887/06224/4781101.pdf
I found a marriage for a Sarah Ann Craig of Gortree (daughter of William) in 1863. She married at Gortnessy Presbyterian church. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church so that’s probably the family church.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1863/09653/5501058.pdf
If you want to search the other marriages in that area, you may find more family.
Clearly your John had more siblings than you were aware of, and I don’t think he was the eldest. Or this is not the correct family.
There was still a Craig family farming there in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Lough_Enagh/Gortree/1527980/
David in 1901 was the son of William Craig, so a brother to your ancestor John. (The farm usually went to the eldest son. The others had to make their own way in the world). Here’s David's marriage:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11617/8276871.pdf
Probate of the Will of David Craig late of Gortree County Londonderry Farmer who died 10 July 1903 granted at Londonderry to Connolly Craig and John M'Auley Farmers.
Probate of the Will of Connolly Craig late of Gortree, Drumahoe, Co. Londonderry, farmer, who died 23 June 1918 granted at Londonderry to Emma Martha jane Craig and Sarah Annetta Craig, both of Ardmore, spinsters. Effects: £229 15s 0d.
Possible family churches are 1st Glendermott – no baptism records exist, marriages from 1845; 2nd Glendermott baptisms from 1855, marriages 1845; Gortnessy baptisms from 1839 and marriages from 1845. None of the baptism records are on-line so far as I am aware but there are copies in PRONI in Belfast. The marriages are on the irishgenealogy site.
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Thank you again Elwyn for your assistance.
I purchased some credits and checked the death record for Sarah. I can confirm she died at Gortree, Glendermott on 11.2.1867 (age 60) with William Craig present. Listed as married and occupation as farmers wife. These facts fit with our Sarah.
The link you set for Williams death on 8.2.1887 (age 87) also shows location as Gortree, Glendermot. I noticed there was a Charlotte Craig granddaughter present at the death, so that could be a useful lead however I haven't found her on a census or marriage record yet.
I had not discovered David Craig or Sarah Ann Craig before - so these are useful leads to explore further - thanks again.
William Craig's farm on Griffiths 1858 valuation at Gortree Clondermot and the property described on David Craig's 1901 census certainly appear to be the same property described as house #9 Gortree Clondermot.
I have looked for BDM records relating to the Gortnessy Meeting House to no avail. I did find a Facebook group for the church and there are graveyard photos that I might be able to enquire about.
I agree with you that the CRAIG family is bigger than I was led to believe - or this one is the wrong family. I think the two keys I need to confirm these are my ancestors are either...
1. a primary source linking (Ernest) John CRAIG to these parents. No census or birth cert found yet. John's marriage and death cert mention parents names Wm and Sarah (common) and Londonderry birthplace which is broad. This may be all I'll ever find.
2. something else def linking John to the farm property at house #9 Gortree (other than a family story). I recall someone mentioned a book that once belonged to John with his name and "Gortree" written inside the front cover - I should follow this up to request a scan or photo.
There is an anomoly too. A William Bannatyne Craig who died in Australia in 1858! To me, he doesn't feel like our William but he died at Moolap Victoria where John Craig lived. Might be correct but there's no other clear connection - it feels like someone found him on Ancestry and added him, then others got excited and followed suit. I need to search further to rule him out or in.
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There's a marriage for a Charlotte Craig of Gortree in 1896- her father David Craig which might fit with census link posted earlier. Marriage was in Gortnessy Presbyterian Church and one of the witnesses was an Emma Craig.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1896/10490/5820100.pdf
Here's the Ferguson family-
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Lough_Enagh/Gortree/1527972/
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Lough_Enagh/Gortree/598905/
Added- Charlotte born 1870- parents David Craig & Sarah Reid-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03335/2222472.pdf
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Charlotte (Craig) Ferguson died 1916-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1916/05252/4455996.pdf
Husband James married again in 1918 which explains the Will Extract below.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09728/5529618.pdf
Ferguson James of Gortree Drumahoe county Londonderry farmer died 6 December 1936 Administration Londonderry 16 July [1937] to Mary Jane Ferguson the widow. Effects £268 2s. 4d.
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It's not often I disagree with Elwyn's posts but the bit below is now always correct-
(The farm usually went to the eldest son. The others had to make their own way in the world).
In Ulster is wasn't uncommon for men to marry later in life- sometimes waiting until after parents were deceased or elderly. Also, farms were in general quite small and could often only support one family which is why you might find one son stayed in the home place while others moved elsewhere for work. Consider this scenario-
Father married around age 30 and had 6 or 7 children over the next 20 years. If eldest son was born when father was 30 then father was only in early 50s when son was about 20- likely still farming with quite a few of his other children still at home. So, eldest son might go looking for work (sometimes in the neighbourhood but just as likely to Scotland, Canada, America, Australia, etc.). This pattern might continue with other sons. Now, by the time the youngest son was around 20 the father is in his 70s and has either died or not able to look after farm on his own. So, this is the son who stays home to look after the elderly relatives, unmarried sisters, etc.
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Robbity,
As far as the Gortnessy Presbyterian church baptism records are concerned, I don’t think you’ll find them on-line. Sometimes there’s a perception that most genealogical records are on-line these days. That’s not the case in Ireland especially for many Protestant denominations. There are some Presbyterian records on reputable commercial sites eg rootsireland but many are not on-line. A high percentage of records for the counties of Ulster are in PRONI (where they are usually on microfilm) and a small number are still held by the Minister. Gortnessy's have been copied and are in PRONI.
You could contact Gortnessy Presbyterian church but I hesitate to encourage that when their records are in PRONI. Many Ministers are very accommodating about looking up records but others get rather too many requests and have better things to do, and just don’t reply. If you do write to the church, enclosing a donation may improve your chances. Assuming I am correct about Gortnessy being the family church, then the baptism records are going to be of slightly limited value. They only start in 1839. If your John was born c 1829, then clearly his parents could have had quite a few children before 1839. However there may have been some after that too. So you may find details of their baptisms but you won’t get the whole family.
A personal visit is required to view the PRONI records. Access is free. This link explains what records exist, parish by parish:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records
If you are unable to go yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the PRONI area: http://sgni.net
Regarding confirming the continuity of the farm at Gortree, you will see in 1858 that Griffiths listed Wm Craig as being on plot 8a. It was the only Craig household listed in the townland. (There were only about 9 farms). There is a set of records that takes Griffiths forward. Called the Valuation Revision records (or sometimes the Cancelled books) they go up to c1929 and show changes in occupancy, acreage and buildings. Those records are on the PRONI website (and are viewable on-line):
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/Val12B/Search.aspx
The records show the plot 8 farm passing from William to David Craig in 1876. So I think that, and David’s marriage certificate, confirms the link. By 1929 the farmhouse was occupied by William McLoughlan and the land farmed by Alex Hogg.
Looking at the tithe applotment records for 1834, there wasn’t a Craig farm listed in Gortree then.
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/derry/tithe-applotments/clondermot-parish.php
Nor was there a Craig household in the townland in the 1831 census. So I think the family arrived in Gortree after 1831 and probably after 1834. But they were probably living nearby. (Based on what was typical). I searched the 1831 census for a William Craig elsewhere in the parish of Glendermot. I found 2, both Presbyterian families:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Tirkeeran/Glendermot/Gortecross/6/
That could be William & Sarah with 2 sons and 1 daughter but it could be a mother in law, elderly unmarried uncle or who knows what. No way of knowing as the names and relationships weren’t recorded in that census. Here’s the second William:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Tirkeeran/Glendermot/Tullyally_Upper/7/
I haven’t researched these families forward but I mention them just as a possible hint as to where your William was in 1831.
You have mentioned William Bannatyne Craig, and you are uncertain of where he fits in. Perhaps you noticed that the farm next to the Craigs in Gortree in 1858 was held by the Ballantyne family (plot 7 next to their plot). Without going into a boring explanation, perhaps it’s sufficient to say spelling of names often varied in Ireland. I suspect Ballantyne and Bannatyne are probably the same. So William B Craig is perhaps named after a neighbour, or is descended from a marriage to a neighbour. Someone perhaps married the girl next door.
Aghadowey has said that it’s not always the case that the eldest son inherited the farm. I am happy concede that point. All I would say is it wasn’t uncommon. But to support her, I did see a case not long ago where there were 3 sons and 1 daughter and the farm went to that unmarried daughter. Who knows what the reasons were but clearly it didn’t follow the tradition I proposed.
You are looking for a census or birth certificate showing who (Ernest) John Craig’s parents are. I very much doubt you will find either. The 1831 census didn’t list children’s names and the 1841 & 1851 censuses have largely been destroyed. (Some fragments exist. I have checked the ones I have access to but did not find your family). If Ernest John was baptised in Gortnessy Presbyterian c 1829, then no records exist.
You might be looking at DNA testing with some of the other apparent descendants of William & Sarah to see if there’s a link?
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Thanks Elwyn for all your help with this research. I followed up and documented all the leads/links you kindly provided. I apologise as I mistakenly thought I had replied to your message however I obviously got side tracked and realise now I overlooked this. Your suggestions were informative and you've taught me techniques for researching this era of Irish ancestry.
For now I feel satisfied with the information I have. I had no idea about the Valuation Revision Records and these were a real help. I now have primary evidence of my ancestors at Gortree and plot 8a particularly. You and aghadowey helped expand the 'perimeter' on this family with relevant BDM records, links to district families and a possible congregation -- this brings the data to life for me. I appreciate your opinions about my unresolved questions and agree about the distinct possibility of more children for Wm and Sarah.
Being in Aus I'm not in a position to visit PRONI and currently unemployed (on the back of COVID) so wont employ a researcher to follow up the gaps - as you say there may be little to find anyway.
I had not considered DNA testing as a way to confirm descendant links - I may consider that down the track.
Thanks again for kindly sharing your expertise and time.
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Glad to have helped.
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I have limited information, however it may be be helpful. My husband's grandfather Samuel (his father's father) was a brother of Charlotte Craig, Connolly Craig, Emma and Nettie. I think the family church may have been Gortnessy Presbyterian as that is where Samuel was baptised. His mother is listed as Sarah, nee Reid and Father David Craig. Samuel married Annie Wilson in Banagher Church of Ireland (her family church). We have limited information because Samuel's wife died 13 months after my husband's father was born. She was buried at Banagher Church. Sadly four months later Samuel also died while in Cork and is buried there. My father in law isn't alive so I am unable to find out any information first hand. Interestingly, Annnie's sister Jane married a James Craig (Aughlish) - a different family and this is where Annie died. My father in law lived for a period at his aunt's house in Aughlish when he was older. However, he was related through Jane rather than James Craig. I'm mentioning this as it may clear up some confusion for others reading. I would love to know more if there is anyone out there with more information. We would especially love to know where Samuel is buried in Cork.
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Samuel married Annie Wilson in Banagher Church of Ireland (her family church). We have limited information because Samuel's wife died 13 months after my husband's father was born. She was buried at Banagher Church. Sadly four months later Samuel also died while in Cork and is buried there.
Here's the marriage record in 1918. Samuel Crooks Craig to Annie Wilson. Fathers: David Craig and Henry Wilson. Annie residing in Derrychrier townland.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09717/5525768.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/keenaght/banagher-keenaght-portion/owenreagh/derrychrier/
Here's the birth of Henry Wilson Craig in Londonderry in 1920.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1920/01208/1502325.pdf
Sadly four months later Samuel also died while in Cork and is buried there.
.........
We would especially love to know where Samuel is buried in Cork.
Samuel died in December 1921. #377
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1922/05075/4392065.pdf
Have you checked the Cork newspapers for a death notice and a potential place of burial?
KG
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Annie Wilson in 1901 census with her parents and siblings.
Residents of a house 14 in Derrychrier (Owenreagh, Londonderry).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Owenreagh/Derrychrier/1525186/
....and in 1911 census, with her sister, brother-in-law and family.
Residents of a house 54 in Spencer Road (Londonderry No. 5 Urban, Londonderry).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_No__5_Urban/Spencer_Road/607108/
Annie Wilson Craig's death in August 1921 at Gorticross.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05084/4395253.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/tirkeeran/clondermot/lough-enagh/gorticross/
KG
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No obvious death notice in Cork or Londonderry Newspapers. If it was St Finbarr he was buried at, unfortunately only up to 1896 digitised so far, but later years may be added at some stage:.
http://www.corkarchives.ie/collections/onlinedigitalarchive/stfinbarrscemeterycorkcity/
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PRONI Will Calendars - https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx
Full Abstract :
Probate of the Will of Samuel Crooks Craig formerly of 34 Warrens Place in the County of the City of Cork and late of Ardmore Drumahoe County Londonderry Engineer who died 29 December 1921 at 34 Warrens Place Cork aforesaid granted at Londonderry to Emma Martha Jane Craig and Sarah Annetta Craig Spinsters and James Craigs Farmer Effects £250
KG
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Full Abstract :
Craig Sarah Annette Brown of 6 Old Coach Road Portstewart county Londonderry spinster died 10 November 1949 at Bannview Hospital Coleraine county Londonderry Administration Londonderry 17 July to Emma Craig spinster. Effects £205 10s. 11d.
Birth of Sarah Annetta Browne Craig 1884 at Gortree. MMN Reid
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02691/1991143.pdf
KG
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H Kiltaglassan
Thanks, I really appreciate that information. That is very interesting. I wonder what became of Emma.
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I wonder what became of Emma.
She's actually registered in 1882 as Emily Jane Martha Craig, born at Gortree.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02794/2025490.pdf
I don't see her death record up to 1971 in Northern Ireland.
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
Edited to add:
Emma and Nettie in 1911 census.
Residents of a house 21 in Lismacarol (Waterside, Londonderry).
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Waterside/Lismacarol/605654/
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I'd found Emma and Nettie in the 1911 Census but Nettie (Sarah) obviously moved to Portstewart. I wonder if Emma went there too. Maybe Emma eventually married.
William and John are also mysteries.
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I'd found Emma and Nettie in the 1911 Census but Nettie (Sarah) obviously moved to Portstewart. I wonder if Emma went there too. Maybe Emma eventually married.
William and John are also mysteries.
Haven't read through entire thread so apologies if this has already been posted but it sounds as though you don't have this -
Craig Sarah Annette Brown of 6 Old Coach Road Portstewart county Londonderry spinster died 10 November 1949 at Bannview Hospital Coleraine county Londonderry Administration Londonderry 17 July [1956] to Emma Craig spinster. Effects £205 10s. 11d.
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Haven't read through entire thread so apologies if this has already been posted but it sounds as though you don't have this -
Craig Sarah Annette Brown of 6 Old Coach Road Portstewart county Londonderry spinster died 10 November 1949 at Bannview Hospital Coleraine county Londonderry Administration Londonderry 17 July [1956] to Emma Craig spinster. Effects £205 10s. 11d.
Apologies accepted, aghadowey ;D ;D
See reply #16
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As I mentioned before David Craig (Born 1835) who married Sarah Reid on 29/7/1864 at Faughanvale Presbyterian Church, had daughter Charlotte (1870), Connolly (1872), Samuel Crooks (1876), Emily Jane Martha (Emma, 1882) & Sarah Annetta Browne (1884). I have since confirmed that there was also a William born 1874 and a John born 1879.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03137/2150468.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02919/2069478.pdf
I have been trying to find out more about Emma, William and John without success and I am still unable to find where Samuel Crooks was buried.
Yesterday I noticed a recorded death for Emily Jane Craig on 10 April 1950 at Creevedonnell. It was reported by her nephew Andrew Craig from Ardnabrocky. Her age is 74yrs, however so this may not be the same person. If it is, then who is Andrew Craig?
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Also, Henry James Craig
born 1867: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/edae687696402
died 1886:. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/d6c40e6380930
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. Yesterday I noticed a recorded death for Emily Jane Craig on 10 April 1950 at Creevedonnell. It was reported by her nephew Andrew Craig from Ardnabrocky. Her age is 74yrs, however so this may not be the same person. If it is, then who is Andrew Craig
A 1950 death wouldn't fit with the Emma in 1956 administration of Sarah's will.
It's a pity William and John weren't given middle names to help narrow down the possibilities for them.
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Thank you. I hadn't noticed Henry James and I hadn't thought of that about Sarah. I was concentrating on her death being 1949, I suppose. I just can't piece the William and John in the puzzle and wonder if they had any children.
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John's death?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/fe34fb3884642
albeit with middle name Graham.
A sister, Charlotte, Gortree registered the death, so seems to fit.
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William's death as infant?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/52eea87581906
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Those records do look like they relate to William and John but I suppose we can't be sure. That would mean Samuel and Charlotte may have been the only two who married. It's strange that I can't find anything about Emma.
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Since my last contact I've made interesting progress and been able to find Charlotte (Craig) Ferguson's farm (that was very informative) and I was given photographs linking my father-in-law. However the contact has been unable to shed any light about what became of the other 3 of Charlotte's children: She said Emma Florence Adelaide Ferguson (b. 19/5/1898) went to USA and I have found she travelled in 1925 and was in the 1930 Census (living in Massachusetts) but have been unable to find a marriage, children or death since that. Also I am unable to get any further information on sons Samuel Craig Ferguson (1902) or John James Ferguson (1906) after Charlotte died. I'm wondering if they emigrated. Would anyone have any information that could help?
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Hello there folks, new to Rootschat and fascinated to read this information about the Craigs of Gortree. William Craig was my great great grandfather, Susan Semple Craig my great grandmother so all relevant to me.
Need to digest all the information. Thank you for your posts. Regards JayJay
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Hi all, Just doing an check on the Craigs on Ancestry and came by the William Bannatyne Craig death record posted on another tree and previously mentioned in this thread. Strangely when I looked up the death on the Victorian BDM site it lists it as a Birth Certificate not death and the place of birth is Yambuk (near Pt Fairy in Victoria) which does not have a connection to our Craigs that I am aware of. I also looked on the Geelong Cemetery Trust website and found nothing for W.B. Craig although there are numerous Craig family members buried here including (Ernest) John and Sarah.
Believe that record may need to be investigated a bit more to include with our Craigs.
Best wishes for the new year to all. Cheers JayJay
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Absolutely agree JayJay55.
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Hi, I am super new and this is my first post here but I have a huge amount of detail relating to the family tree at Gortee Farm; Crooks, Ferguson, etc. I am happy to post images of photos of the relatives from the family showing James & Charlotte Ferguson and their children etc. I also have the details of how the farm was passed down and out of my own Ferguson line. This thread is so old and I am a total newbie to searching family trees but I think I just found mine. Mary Crooks and John Ferguson were my great grandparents.