RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Peggle on Thursday 03 December 20 11:25 GMT (UK)
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Our family mystery begins with Alma Matthews.....
Alma had a child named Amy Ellen who was born Matthews on 17 Jan 1918 in Victoria, Australia.
We cannot find a birth record for Amy.
In 1919, Amy's mother Alma took her to a babies home in Broadmeadows, a suburb of Melbourne and left her there.
My cousin and I have a DNA match to 1 of Amy's Grand Daughters.
(Her half sister's DNA result is pending)
We have all connected and have tried to work out how Alma fits into our family.
We've decided to ask for some help from the Rootschatters as we seem to be going around in circles.
My cousin and I share Great Grandparents.
(James Ralph Matthews and Lillian Tiffen....Discussed previously in another topic)
Our new DNA cousins have provided the scant information they have.
Their Grandmother was known as Amy Ellen Rose Gleed (nee Matthews)
who died in Kyneton,Victoria 26 May 2003.
Amy married Richard Edward (Ned) Clohesy (1911-1969)
27 Aug 1938 at St.John's Church, East Melbourne.
Ref#10176
There are possibly other children belonging to Alma Matthews also.
Thankyou all in advance,
Peg
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Here is he link to the previous research on-
James Ralph Matthews and Lillian Tiffen
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=832019.msg6994595#msg6994595
Sue
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If you are researching the origins of Alma MATTHEWS, and the earliest sighting you have of Alma is her name on an orphanage file, 1919.......you need to give all the information on the orphanage admission record.
What information was recorded about Alma MATTHEWS and baby Amy Ellen in 1919?
Where do you see...... possibly......other children born to Alma?
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:)
When Amy married in 1938 in Victoria, what info was recorded on her marriage registration about :
:) :) herself
:) :) her parent/s ... and was Alma named as her mum and perhaps noted as deceased at that time ...
:) :) who were the witnesses ... do you recognise them from recent research or from long standing oral history ... perhaps they are still living and may know of Alma :)
ADD ... who (guardian, or parent) gave consent for Amy to marry? She was not yet 21 years of age.
Edited while on e reader so cannot strike out, but had to backspace and thus delete poorly worded sentences.
JM
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An entry on Wiki about Amy Ellen includes the following....born ABOUT 17 Jan 1918 at Ballarat and was left at a church at the age of 1-2 around broadmedows in Victoria the nun thought her mothers name was Alma matthews and believes this woman dropped of possibly another 2 babies in later years Nell was aware of this info and shared with the family.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Matthews-Gleed-1
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St Joseph's Foundling Hospital (1901 - 1975)
Gibson Street, Broadmeadows
https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/guide/vic/E000050
M
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Can you account for all the males and females of child bearing age who are named on the dc for James who died Ascot Vale on 23 May 1922 .... see reply #87 on other thread ::) ... so wondering if a daughter or daughter in law may have been Amy's mum, but was known informally as Alma ...
1922 Olive was 16 ... she was 11 going on 12 in Jan 1918 .... so start with Violet, then Nora Ellen, Ivy Lily, and then Natalie May ... then look for possible VIc based partners for Walter Clem in 1916-17 and Herbert William in 1916-17..., born Jan 1918, so basically you are wanting answer to where was Alma over Easter 1917...
JM
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That information gives further possibilities....anything here?.....
BDM VIC birth
14725/1914 SHEPHERD Marj Erma parents Claude Augustus / Ivy Emily MATTHEWS /
South Melbourne
31580/1916 SHEPHERD Raymond Walter parents Claude Augustus / Ivy Emily MATTHEWS
South Melbourne
1368/1918 ROME Ellen Amy parents Geo / Ivy MATTHEWS
Carlton
17512/1919 MATTHEWS Jno Walter parents UKN / Emma Ivy MATTHEWS
Carlton
Death
26831/1968 SHEPHERD Ivy Emily parents Jane Emma PRENTICE / MATTHEWS Charles Walter
born Beechworth died Brunswick West age 72
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I have not found Vic BDM ref but Find A Grave has a Frankston Cemetery Victoria Australia listing for a Lawn plot in 1980, for given name Alma, and surname GLEED ...
I hope that won't divert us off to a circular search...
JM
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I will continue with Ivy MATTHEWS being a person of interest because events in her life during WW1 might see her placing her children in care.
VIC BDM marriage
2973/1912 MATTHEWS Ivy Emily marr. SHEPHERD, Claude Augt
Claude Augustus SHEPHERD #6577 left left Melbourne 2 Dec 1916. I think the army is still waiting for him to return. His enlistment file runs to 121 pages.
Marj Erma born 1914, and Raymond Walter born 1916 would be his children.
Ellen Amy born 1918, and Raymond John born 1919 would not be his children.
Ivy SHEPHERD is not receiving her husband's allowance because he has gone missing, and the Army has refused her request for financial assistance.
At April 1918...image 117 of 121....Ivy SHEPHERD has three children.....
I think that Ivy has had two children while her husband is away. Husband Claude has deserted the Army and his wife, and Ivy places her children in care.
And when Ivy SHEPHERD dies there is someone around with good knowledge about her origins.
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Page 117 of the file is a heart rendering letter from Ivy. It is 18th April. She has THREE children, no funds, no knowledge of where Claude was.
Oops, duplicating . Sorry, no red warning.
JM
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I will continue with Ivy MATTHEWS being a person of interest because events in her life during WW1 might see her placing her children in care.
VIC BDM marriage
2973/1912 MATTHEWS Ivy Emily marr. SHEPHERD, Claude Augt
4 4
Claude Augustus SHEPHERD #6577 left left Melbourne 2 Dec 1916. I think the army is still waiting for him to return. His enlistment file runs to 121 pages.
Marj Erma born 1914, and Raymond Walter born 1916 would be his children.
Ellen Amy born 1918, and Raymond John born 1919 would not be his children.
Ivy SHEPHERD is not receiving her husband's allowance because he has gone missing, and the Army has refused her request for financial assistance.
At April 1918...image 117 of 121....Ivy SHEPHERD has three children.....
I think that Ivy has had two children while her husband is away. Husband Claude has deserted the Army and his wife, and Ivy places her children in care.
And when Ivy SHEPHERD dies there is someone around with good knowledge about her origins.
And
Page 117 of the file is a heart rendering letter from Ivy. It is 18th April. She has THREE children, no funds, no knowledge of where Claude was.
Oops, duplicating . Sorry, no red warning.
JM
Letter is not April 1918. It is April 18, but NO year recorded. Ivy has written in it 1919 or 1920. Most likely 1919. She refers to Claude's last letter dated October 1918.
JM
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Three children mentioned in her death notice.
The Age Thursday 24th October 1968
SHEPHERD
On October 23, at her home, 38 Grantham Street, West Brunswick, Ivy Emily, beloved wife of the late Claude, beloved mother of Claude (deceased), Marjorie (Mrs. Simmons), and Raymond, fond mother-in-law of Dinah and loved grandmother of Marjorie, Bob, Brian, Raymond, Barbara and James and great-grandmother of Anthony, Gregory, Sharon, Deborah, Micaelle, Liza, Rodney, Cheryl, Gary, Gregory, Susanne, Debra and Karen.
Sleeping peacefully
In God’s care.
Matching births
SHEPHERD Claude Alex
Father Claude Augustus Mother Ivy Emily MATTHEWS
At Carlton 1912 Reg#27553
SHEPHERD Marj Erma
Father Claude Augustus Mother Ivy Emily MATTHEWS
At South Melbourne 1914 Reg#14725
SHEPHERD Raymond Walter
Father Claude Augustus Mother Ivy Emily MATTHEWS
At South Melbourne 1916 Re#31580
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ROME Ellen Amy
Father George Mother Ivy MATTHEWS
At Carlton 1918 Reg#1368
MATTHEWS John Walter
Father Not named Mother Emma Ivy MATTHEWS
At Carlton 1919 Reg#17512
I don't see a birth for a Raymond John in 1919.
Birth Cert attached for Ellen Amy ROME born 17 Jan 1918 at Carlton.
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Well found Cando.
ROME ... moves easily to Rose as her third middle name.
JM.
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For the OP's records
The Age 4 Nov 1916
BIRTHS
SHEPHERD – On the 29th October, at 280 Grant street, South Melbourne, to the wife of Private Claude Augustus Shepherd (A.I.F., abroad) – a son (Raymond Walter). Both well
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Interesting article linked below tells of the history of 15 Drummond St, Carlton, Rosedale House, where Ellen Amy ROME was born according to her birth certificate. The 'authorised agent' who was the informant, M Donelly, is mentioned in the article as the Matron of Rosedale House, at the time of this birth. (Last paragraph of the article)
http://www.cchg.asn.au/nursebasser.pdf
Judith
Edit to add:
There are some newspaper birth notices which might imply that Rosedale House was not necessarily for those in poor circumstances.
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Article about Ivy SHEPHERD...
Truth 7 Dec 1918 p7
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130174529?
...Ivy SHEPHERD married woman living in Union Street.....managed a stall in Victorian Markets for her father......husband is an ANZAC......informed her father........
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BDM VIC marriage
7500/1933 SHEPHERD Marj Emma marr. SIMMONS, Chas Wm
Death
21597/1986 SIMMONS Marjorie Emma parents Ivy Emily MATTHEWS / SHEPHERD Claude Augustus
born Melbourne South died Fitzroy age 72
17878/1987 SHEPHERD Raymond Walter parents Ivy Emily MATTHEWS / SHEPHERD Claude born born Melbourne South died Altona Meadows age 70
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The daughter of James Ralph MATTHEWS and Lillian TIFFEN was born in Broken Hill.
So that is the genetic connection
MATTHEWS Ivy L (ivy Lillian)
8010/1894
Father JAMES R
Mother Lillian
At BROKEN HILL
Sue
Adding- She married in Victoria in 1919 to Jack Aleck IVORY (#2180) and died in 1927 at Moonee Ponds. Parents Jas Ralph MATTHEWS and Liln TIFFEN. (#11590)
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I am not able to find information on anyone known as George ROME, but I do see that James Ralph MATTHEWS and wife Lillian were living in Tasmania in 1914.
This is the stated birthplace of the father of the child on the BC, George ROME
The MATTHEWS were at Ridgley and he was a railway employee while she performed domestic duties.
I think much of this is contained in the first thread which I attached previously.
Sue
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Thank you to everyone for all the work you're all putting into this mystery.
There are 4 cousins currently trying to understand the relevance of what you've all put forward.
2 of those are granddaughters of Walter Clem and Violet, children of James Ralph Matthews and Lillian Tiffen and the other 2 are granddaughters of Amy Ellen Rose Gleed.
Can you account for all the males and females of child bearing age who are named on the dc for James who died Ascot Vale on 23 May 1922 .... see reply #87 on other thread ::) ... so wondering if a daughter or daughter in law may have been Amy's mum, but was known informally as Alma ...
1922 Olive was 16 ... she was 11 going on 12 in Jan 1918 .... so start with Violet, then Nora Ellen, Ivy Lily, and then Natalie May ... then look for possible VIc based partners for Walter Clem in 1916-17 and Herbert William in 1916-17..., born Jan 1918, so basically you are wanting answer to where was Alma over Easter 1917...
JM
JM with reference to your comment;
In 1916/1917 the Matthews family were still living in Ridgley,Tasmania.
They moved to Ascot Vale,Vic in 1918.
My Grandfather Walter Clem Matthews was born 9 Jan 1902 TAS BDM Reg No.44026/1902
In 1917 he would only have been 15.
The other siblings of reproductive age for consideration, including some you've noted, in order of birth are;
Netallie May b.28 Nov 1889 NSW BDM Reg No.36060/1889
James Robert b.13 Jul 1891 NSW BDM Reg No.8626/1891
Ivy Lily b.4 Feb 1894 NSW BDM Reg No.8010/1894
Mary Ann Dorothy Louisa b.2 Jul 1896 NSW BDM Reg No.20362/1896
Herbert William b.22 Oct 1898 TAS BDM Reg No.2771/1898
Nora Ellen b.7 Apr 1903 TAS BDM Reg No.195/1903
Violet b.6 Aug 1904 TAS BDM Reg No.396/1904
Peg.
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Thank you to everyone for all the work you're all putting into this mystery.
I thought we'd solved the mystery with her birth certificate and identification of the mother who was Ivy L not Alma. Most information would have been given verbally in that era. Errors occurred and often inaccurate info was given in the case of illegitimate births.
I note you have a photo of Ivy on your public family tree on Ancestry.
Ivy was buried at Fawkner Memorial Park. https://www.gmct.com.au/deceased
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I am on my e reader still, so one finger typing.
Re Mrs Ivy SHEPHERD - she is not Alma, See The Argus, page 8, 23 Feb 1922. Her then address 3 St Luke St, Sth Melbourne..
Re Mrs Ivy IVORY ... she is the daughter of James Ralph and Lillian (Nee Tiffen) MATTHEWS ... see her Vic Marriage and her Vic death certs...
Well found by Sue and Cando.
Re "Alma Matthews" ... yes, in that era much info was given verbally. So if someone - a nun perhaps softly said "my dear, whats your own name"
And the reply came back ..."I'm a Matthews" ... it can easily have become "Alma".
JM.
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The Age 21 Jan 1932 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203181581?
death Jane Emma MATTHEWS....res. daughter 178 Ferrars St South Melbourne.......
wife of Charles.....mother of
Constance SCHULTZ.....May GRIFFIN......Ivy SHEPHERD....Frank....Nettie BALL.....Albert
sister of Mrs FRANCIS. buried Fawkner.
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Reply #4 from Cando quotes.... thought the mother's name was Alma
Either the nun's recollection was vague, or Ivy lied. Simple.
I would suggest the infant was dropped off before the 1919 marriage of Ivy Lilian MATTHEWS to Alick IVORY.
The couple had 2 chn before the death in 1927 of Ivy.
You need to ignore the SHEPHERD. It is not relevant.
Sue
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This little item from Wilmot in the Burnie Advocate Tasmania about the death of Mrs IVORY (Ivy) in 1927.
Makes it clear that the IVORY's were a Tasmanian family.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/67771662?searchTerm=%22alick%20ivory%22
Sue
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Reply #4 from Cando quotes.... thought the mother's name was Alma
Either the nun's recollection was vague, or Ivy lied. Simple.
I would suggest the infant was dropped off before the 1919 marriage of Ivy Lilian MATTHEWS to Alick IVORY.
The couple had 2 chn before the death in 1927 of Ivy.
You need to ignore the SHEPHERD. It is not relevant.
Sue
Exactly.
Importantly, Ivy Shepherd's birth is found at Vic BDM online index, confirms PRENTICE as her nee name matching info on her Vic bdm death index.
JM.
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Yes, that's right JM.
The PRENTICE/MATTHEWS marriage took place in Cambridge England and the couple were immigrants or settlers arriving around 1890.
Sue
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".. the nun thought her mothers name was Alma matthews..."
What /who is the source of this information....the substance of verbal exchange that occurred 100 years ago? Who was the nun talking to?
I do not think it is very useful information to work with......could be anything........too long ago.
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Still trying to follow :-\
As is Mandy, my known cousin, who was involved with the previous thread on James Ralph Matthews and Lillian (nee Tiffin) Matthews.
We are watching and trying to understand how things are panning out and both are not really super proficient with trying to help, sorry, so thanks for helping.
We wondered if there was more to Ivy Lily Ivory's story than the birth of her child
Dorothy Ellen Matthews b.31 Oct 1915
TAS BDM Reg No.2103
Mother; Ivy Lily Matthews
Father; Not stated
Dorothy was known as Dorrie and was brought up within the James and Lillian family unit as one of their children. Violet Matthews spoke about her but there was never any confirmation about her being Ivy Lily's child.
I only recently found the birth record for her in the Hobart Library records which confirmed the relationship to Ivy Lily.
Peg
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".. the nun thought her mothers name was Alma matthews..."
What /who is the source of this information....the substance of verbal exchange that occurred 100 years ago? Who was the nun talking to?
I do not think it is very useful information to work with......could be anything........too long ago.
Sorry to disagree with Wivenhoe but ...
It seems to me that it is info that Amy provided to her family, as per their comments/remarks online trees, and so it is oral history that was provided initially to Amy when she was young . So Amy knew her date of birth, and she knew her mum was surnamed MATTHEWS .... and ... Cando has researched, obtained and uploaded Amy's likely birth cert. So the info is not newly invented info, nor is it 100 years old. The civil birth rego is 100 plus years ago.
Two apparently unconnected families have, through DNA comparisons, recognised they may be related and Peggles has asked us regulars at RChat for help finding a possible paper trail to support the DNA connection.
I support the paper trail from Ivy's NSW birth to Amy's Vic birth to Ivy's Vic marriage to become Mrs IVORY and her death in Vic aged just 33, in 1927.
To me, the dots are joining up. I don't understand DNA, but seeing that birth cert with Ivy' s details and Amy's dob .....
JM.
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Wivenhoe
The 2 Granddaughters of Amy Ellen Rose Gleed (nee Matthews) have given all the information they have. I can only share what I've been told, and I'll give you what I know.
Mandy and I have only recently connected with them via our DNA matches on Ancestry and DNA matches to other known Matthews family members.
Consequently, we are trying to figure out how they, their Grandmother Amy Ellen and her mother Alma Matthews are connected to us.
The wikitree reference was inserted by one of these Granddaughters.
So this is what one of them has told us.......
Quote:
' The Register of Infants without Mothers from the St.Joseph's Hospital,Broadmeadows,
list her birthname as Amy Ellen Matthews, born 17 Jan 1918 in Melbourne.
She was admitted to Broadmeadows on 25th Mar 1919.
She was discharged on 12 Jul 1922 with the view of adoption to Mr and Mrs Gleed of East Trentham.
Amy was then aged 4 years and 5 months.
In the Broadmeadows home she was known as Nellie Matthews.
From the record, she was initially discharged at the age of 3 years to foster parents in Monbulk, Vic on 14 Feb 1921, but was returned.
She was born in 1918, so her birth mother cared for her or someone close cared for her for a little over a year.
There is a number to quote on contact to the cfwb.st. joseph's Adoption Information Service,
being ****
It appears Amy was never adopted.
The Sisters of St.Joseph Adoption Information Services said that was all the information they had.
We think her mother was Alma Matthews, this lady may have had another child at hospital.
The mention of other babies was hand written on the back of some correspondence by the Nun at the first request for information by Amy in 1985.
The Nun seemed to remember the lady returning to have another child.
Amy tried to pursue more information in 1996 but if any was received, then the Granddaughter has no knowledge of it.'
And also this:
Quote
'The question about Amy's age at marriage......
She was under age. She had to get special permission from the Priest at St.Johns Church, East Melbourne. I remember at that stage she wasn't sure how old she was.
The witnesses were William and Margaret Lyons."
Peg
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JM Thank you!
You have explained it all very well ;D
Both of the newly found cousins are close matches.
They will most likely make comments when they figure out how RootsChat works but for the time being we are all watching in awe in the background and chattering amongst ourselves, our heads spinning, trying to fir the puzzle pieces together.....
Peg.
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This is one of the In Memoriam notices placed in the newspaper by Ivy IVORY noting the death of her father James Ralph MATTHEWS.
Her children are mentioned as Reg and Tyrell
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69839402
(I seem to think Tyrell as a name was mentioned in your previous thread)
I believe these children were born in Tas.
Here is a link to Reginald's WW2 service record.
https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=497050&c=WW2#R
Tyrell may have married
Tyrell Mavis IVORY
Year 1938
Victoria, Australia
Richd Arthur FALLON
Reg 16935
Sue
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We wondered if there was more to Ivy Lily Ivory's story than the birth of her child
Dorothy Ellen Matthews b.31 Oct 1915
TAS BDM Reg No.2103
Mother; Ivy Lily Matthews
Father; Not stated
Dorothy was known as Dorrie and was brought up within the James and Lillian family unit as one of their children. Violet Matthews spoke about her but there was never any confirmation about her being Ivy Lily's child.
I only recently found the birth record for her in the Hobart Library records which confirmed the relationship to Ivy Lily.
Peg
Hi,
I am not familiar with Tas birth records of that time.
Is there a more specific location for this birth rather than just Tasmania?
Is there any other information included?
On the BC for Amy, the stated marriage date for Ivy and Mr ROME is 1915
(I very much doubt Mr Rome existed!)
Sue
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Thank you the useful information at reply #32 about the source of your information
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Mandy and I searched for a long time online for evidence of Dorrie's birth as we suspected she may have been the child of one of James Ralph Matthews daughters or possibly the sons.
Sorry, there is just one more piece of information for Dorothy Ellen Matthews birth that was included with that.....
'At Mrs TREWEEKS, Mount Street, Burnie.
Interestingly, at that same address, I found a birth record for another child who died very young...(about 5 months)
MATTHEWS Basil Ken
Birth 19 Mar 1915
At Mrs Treweeks, Mount St. Burnie
Reg. Year 1915
Reg No.1960
James Ralph Matthews
Lillian Matthews nee.Tiffen
The information I've given was what I found from the Hobart Library resource online inside the library building. They provide access to the Pioneer and Federation Indexes and it's limited to searching on their own computers in the library itself.
There is access to the Names Index through the family history portal through Tas Libraries online remotely. But nothing could be found on there, but it is a very handy resource.
(For reference if anyone is interested;)
https://www.libraries.tas.gov.au/how-to/Pages/Names-Index-content.aspx
Peg
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Yes, both Reg b.1920 and Tyrell b.1922 were children of Ivy Lily Ivory (known as Lily) and Alick Ivory.
The Ivory family are Tasmanian based in the north of the state.
According to Alex (Alick) Ivory's Australian Imperial Forces Enlistment papers dated 24 Aug 1914,
his father is;
John Ivory of Wilmot, Tasmania
Peg
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Sue,
I searched for Mr Rome last night without success and even considered that it may have been
Mr Rowe? No joy with that one either.
What Mandy and I found interesting at one stage was with the Electoral Rolls of Tas
(I'm trying to find my notes on this one)
Was that Ivy Lily and Alick Ivory were living at different locations for a period of time in the marriage, which we thought was strange. They were both around Burnie, Tas but I can't recall the exact details......I will look for them
Peg
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Interestingly, at that same address, I found a birth record for another child who died very young...(about 5 months)
MATTHEWS Basil Ken
Birth 19 Mar 1915
At Mrs Treweeks, Mount St. Burnie
Reg. Year 1915
Reg No.1960
James Ralph Matthews
Lillian Matthews nee.Tiffen
Peg
According to my calculations of Lillian nee TIFFEN's age in 1915, she was at least 45 years.
I would be thinking this is another grandchild of theirs registered in their names as parents.
Sue
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Re Amy's birth .... is it possible to find George (* instead of surname) in Burnie around Easter 1917 .... what records would be available during that year or the year prior .... there were two federal referendums on conscription ... so electoral rolls come to my mind ... but I don't have any Tasmanian rolls ...
Geo R .... mm... and an aside ..
Oh that looks regal ....
JM
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1916 Electoral Roll ...
Perhaps have a check for Rouse as alternative surname.
JM
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This might be on a completely wrong tangent, so please feel free to ignore
There is a George Rome Andrews of South Melbourne, age 29 years and 11 months - who signs up in 1917 for the Aust Imperial Force (WW1). Service papers at Aust National Archives
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I see there is a public tree for George Rome ANDREWS ....
JM
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Interestingly, at that same address, I found a birth record for another child who died very young...(about 5 months)
MATTHEWS Basil Ken
Birth 19 Mar 1915
At Mrs Treweeks, Mount St. Burnie
Reg. Year 1915
Reg No.1960
James Ralph Matthews
Lillian Matthews nee.Tiffen
Peg
According to my calculations of Lillian nee TIFFEN's age in 1915, she was at least 45 years.
I would be thinking this is another grandchild of theirs registered in their names as parents.
Sue
Sue,
Here is a family notice re. Kenneth Basil Matthews in the North Eastern Advocate and Emu Bay Times dated 18 Aug 1916
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/64596416?searchTerm=Kenneth%20Basil%20Matthews%20Kenneth%20Basil
Peg
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Yes, well...I'm not quite sure what that verse means.
Are you?
L and D were siblings??
Sue
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Sue,
L is Ivy Lily, known as Lily.
D is Mary Ann Dorothy Louisa known as Dorothy.
They are the siblings of baby Kenneth Basil Matthews, youngest child of James Ralph Matthews and Lillian.
Just as a little piece of interest regarding Lillian being aged 45 when Kenneth was born......
My youngest child was born when I was 46! :)
Peg
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Our family mystery begins with Alma Matthews.....
Alma had a child named Amy Ellen who was born Matthews on 17 Jan 1918 in Victoria, Australia.
We cannot find a birth record for Amy.
In 1919, Amy's mother Alma took her to a babies home in Broadmeadows, a suburb of Melbourne and left her there
.
Peg don't you think the birth certificate I purchased and attached to my reply have solved your mystery? You make no mention of it in any of your responses. Just click on the link in the post.
I'ts obvious that Ivy Lily was "Alma". Place of birth and age.
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Hi i am amy ellen grand daughter.i am try to find any infor of ivy lillians life between 1915 and 1919 when she married...when did she leave tassie where in vic did she live..was she working ...did she leave tassie with another family member..any help on location at this time might help..
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:)
I wonder if Cando's post and that wonderful attachment was overshadowed by several posts from me. If so, please accept my apologies.
JM
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ROME Ellen Amy
Father George Mother Ivy MATTHEWS
At Carlton 1918 Reg#1368
MATTHEWS John Walter
Father Not named Mother Emma Ivy MATTHEWS
At Carlton 1919 Reg#17512
I don't see a birth for a Raymond John in 1919.
Birth Cert attached for Ellen Amy ROME born 17 Jan 1918 at Carlton.
Cando,
Please accept my sincere apology.
Things moved on very quickly from there and I think my focus was actually on the thought that Ivy Lily could have been the mother and trying to process her as that, and there not actually being an Alma......
And also the Rome fella was a distraction.
I'm very grateful to you for producing the certificate and I'm very sorry to not have acknowledged your contribution at that time.
Actually, it has just sunk in at this very minute, that that is a confirmation of Amy Ellen's parentage.
Thankyou for jolting me (Sometimes my family just look at me for ages, waiting for a response while my brain tries to process things)
Peg
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Sometimes in this forum and others like it, there is an assumption that the full picture is grasped quickly by all participants in a thread. It is quite usual for contributors to be confused with a lot of information coming in. No need to think you are alone in this!
Knowing quickly what to filter out or factor in is a matter of practice and experience and of course in this case, Cando's generous purchase was the clinching factor that automatically wiped out the whole SHEPHERD aspect of the research. It is her level of expertise that has enabled your solution :)
Mr ROME may always be a mystery.
Sue
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Oh I certainly agree with Sue. So much information and not always connected immediately to the original request.
Peg no apologies required. I was concerned that you hadn't noticed the post.
I don't think Mr ROME actually existed. Sadly misleading information is often given to the porter or member of the hospital staff, who carried out the registrations.
Cheers
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I don't think there was a George ROME either.
But there will likely be some aspects of the information Ivy gave about him which are true.
I would say he was quite possibly a 40 year old farmer of Burnie.
ROME is not a surname that would spring to mind to invent, so possibly some element in the name George ROME will be based in fact.
However, too cryptic for me!!
I have a descendant who lied on the birth certificate of an ex-nuptial child, but the initials for the invented man were the same as the real father.
Sue
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All I can say is WOW!
And the biggest thankyou to everyone who has contributed to helping solve the mystery of who Alma was and wasn't! ;D
This has been an amazing journey since March this year when my father died.
Amongst his personal effects we found some very basic hand written notes that he'd been given by his sister many years ago.
In the notes I found for the first time, the name of my Great Grandfather......James Ralph Matthews and his wife Lillian (nee Tiffen).
I grew up only knowing my father's 2 siblings and their kids (my 9 cousins) and his parents, my Nan and Pop.
I knew of no one else. And no one talked about anyone else.
After my father died, my first hint of other family was a 1909 school photograph of Ridgley School, Tasmania, with 3 Matthews children, Walter Clem my grandfather being one of them and his sisters Violet and Nellie.
In my search to find more about James Ralph and Lillian, I came upon a search for the same couple that had been in cyberspace for 20 years!
Through this I met my new cousin Mandy, Granddaughter of Violet, who was looking for her Great Grandparents parents all those years ago.
I felt like I'd gained another sister.
We then found that we matched via DNA to 2 other cousins. And connecting with them was like finding another 2 sisters. They are the Grandaughters of Amy Ellen.
And while we were trying to figure out how these 2 new cousins were connected to our family, we found another 2, which were twins. They were searching for their paternal birth family.
So while we all connected privately and tried to figure out how we all fitted together, and the search for 'Alma' was taking place, we had worked out how the twins fitted into our family.
They were descended from another of James and Lillian's children.
So tonight we are all a bit overjoyed and very much overwhelmed at the legacy that James and Lillian have left us.....
And very grateful to you all,
Thank you to everyone on behalf of us all,
Peg ;D
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A wonderful story Peggle.
It is great to hear how the DNA path has led to happy outcomes and joyful discoveries for you. :)
Sue
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Yes, Exactly So. Sue has snatched my words out from my finger tips.
I think this has been one of the best outcomes on this board for many years.
JM
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Sue and JM,
It is absolutely amazing and there are smiles all around here with 4 new cousins now knowing where they fit :)
Thank you doesn't seem enough 8)
I was looking for George Rome from Burnie last night.....
Strangely, the name Horne popped up, seemingly a more common name than Rome.
Rome/Horne.......
Horne??
Could this be the father's name that's written on the birth document for Ellen Amy?
Looking at the handwriting it could easily be Horne.....
I'm sorry but I can't get to that reply to quote it....
Peg
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Hi Peggle,
No I am sorry to disagree with you, but I do not see the name as possibly HORNE.
Maybe there will be another DNA discovery for you one day as other descendants of the man make an appearance.
Perhaps he was George someone or Mr GEORGE from Romaine, nearby to Ridgley. ::)
Sue
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Thanks Sue,
That's perfectly ok.
Peg 8)
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At reply 13, and that wonderful cert, as a PDF ...
Column 2 ... I wonder why the Registrar has a) mentioned Burnie, Tasmania in that column and b) what is the squiggle written in that column, left hand corner ... and c) what does that squiggle mean
Columns 5, 6, 7 so the informant was experienced and knew tto ask the mum ... when and where was she married, who to, his occupation, age, where born, and same for Ivy, her nee name with double t, and lace of birth ...
So column 7 has ROME, definitely capital R ... compare with B in Burnie and Broken and with H as in Hill
Column 8 is informant's handwriting, I believe all the rest is Edward Glennon, registrar. Baby born 17th, birth registered very next day...
If not ROME, it is RO E
it is possible that the Informant provided the apparently speculative info about baby's dad but I doubt it as she gave the correct info about baby's mum's birth ... ....
When I zoom in just before the pixel thingy messes it up I can almost see RONIE or ROUSE or ROWE in col.5 surname, but only ROME in col 7 surname.
My ancient retired NSW bdm rellies say it is ROME clearly as per col 7.
JM one finger typing ... :D :D lace of birth ... a grand oops ... place.