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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Caitie777 on Thursday 26 November 20 13:19 GMT (UK)
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My GG grandmother was called Nellie Doughty born in 1878 London she died 1972. She married a man called “hicks” in 1916 and had my great grandmother illegitimately in 1910 in Islington workhouse. The age she gave upon entering the workhouse would have put her date of birth at 1883, this is the first mystery. Until my great aunt gave me a copy of Nellies birth certificate recently I have never been able to confirm her family. There was a family I found on ancestry the parents called Thomas and Jane Doughty and it turned out this was the same names/maiden name on the birth certificate she had.
On ancestry the other families that have Nellie in their trees say she died in 1918 but obviously this can’t be true because 1) she was Nellie Hicks in 1918 not Doughty 2) she died in 1972 my mother went to her funeral.
So I ordered a copy of the death certificate for the Nellie Doughty that died in 1918 and I am shocked, on the certificate it gives osteoarthritis as the cause of death but more shocking is it says that her mother was Jane Doughty the same mother on Nellies birth certificate and the family address is the address that’s consistent on census documents.
This means that the women who’s my GG grandmother isn’t Nellie Doughty.
How did this happen? It’s like Nellie turned up to the workhouse in 1910 and gave a fake name?
If anyone can help me work through this I would really appreciate it.
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My first question would be: when and how did your great-aunt acquire the birth record and how did she know it belonged to your great-great-grandmother? Was it just a guess?
Regards,
Josephine
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It was in her paperwork when she died.
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Just laying out some facts:
Possible parents marriage:
Marriages Dec 1874
Beavis Jane Poplar 1c 1209
BURCHELL Emma Poplar 1c 1209
Doughty Thomas George Poplar 1c 1209
French William Aviss Poplar 1c 1209
So possible birth
DOUGHTY, NELLIE BEAVIS
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 734
And this her daughter
DOUGHTY, CECILIA NELLIE -
GRO Reference: 1910 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 183
This her marriage
Marriages Jun 1916
Doughty Nellie C Hicks Willesden 3a 590
Hicks William E Doughty Willesden 3a 590
Was her middle name Cecilia?
This must be her death then.
Deaths Dec 1972
Hicks Nellie 22My1878 Kensington 5c 1916
I see no Nellie Doughtys born in 1883 just
DOUGHTY, NELLIE -
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in CAISTOR Volume 07A Page 638
DOUGHTY, NELLIE SANDERSON
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in ECCLESALL BIERLOW Volume 09C Page 329
Nellie can of course be short for quite a few names - Eleanor, Ellen & others.
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What is the date when the birth certificate from your great aunt was issued ? Was it the original or a copy obtained later?
ADDED: & presumably you know the mother was Jane because she was the informant - as only Scottish death certificates give parents.
It may be worth looking up all children to Thomas & Jane to see if there was another daughter who could have been nicknamed Nellie.
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Hiya yes all those details are correct, but I’m really doubting Thomas and Jane are her parents if she’s even Nellie Doughty herself! I believe her middle name was Cecilia.
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She had siblings but she was the only Nellie.
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The birth certificate my aunt gave me was 1937 issued
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The Nellie Doughty who died in 1916 was age 40 so that fits too!! Needs some lateral thinking .....
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Maybe the birth certificate was not the correct one? why would it have been ordered in 1937? Do you have the 1916 marriage certificate? Who did Nellie say her father was?
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I can’t remember now but I’m pretty sure it just said deceased. It won’t let me upload attachments because they’re all too big.
The informant on the 1918 death certificate Jane Doughty is listed as living at the same address given on that death cert in 1911.
It’s definitely the same Jane and Thomas Doughty family. It just so odd it’s like she turned up in 1910 in the workhouse and gave fake details.
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I can’t remember now but I’m pretty sure it just said deceased. It won’t let me upload attachments because they’re all too big.
You should only post clips or snippets fro copyright reasons. It should say father's name even if it also says deceased.
It seems William E Hicks wsa married before Nellie, to a K[C]atherine Cecilia Doughty who died in 1915
Marriages Sep 1904
Doughty Katherine Cecilia Hendon 3a 595
Hicks William Ernest Hendon 3a 595
Robison Isabel Thompson Hendon 3a 595
Wright Charles Hendon 3a 595
1911 show Catherine age 31, son born 1906 MMN Doughty.
Deaths Mar 1915
Hicks Catherine C 34 Fulham 1a 464
However I can find no C[K]athe[a]rine Cecilia Doughty born 1880 +- 2 yrs.
Births Dec 1879
DOUGHTY Catherine Marion Luton 3b 430
Births Jun 1881
Doughty Catherine Adelaide Lincoln 7a 548
Doughty Catherine Emily Bethnal Green 1c 163 S
Births Dec 1883
DOUGHTY Catherine Manchester 8d 243
ADDED: I see 'Nellie age 27' in 1910 was discharged from St John's Road, Islington to Isle of Thanet Workhouse
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My suggestion would be that you question each one of your assumptions individually and then prove or disprove each one.
If the birth record was found in your g-g-grandmother's effects, that would suggest it was hers.
Perhaps the online trees have conflated two separate people.
Given names or nicknames like Jane and Nellie are common; it's not impossible that more than one female in a family or household shared a given name or nickname.
Regards,
Josephine
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The informant on the 1918 death certificate Jane Doughty is listed as living at the same address given on that death cert in 1911.
That just confirms that the 1918 death is most likely of the 1878 birth to Thomas & Jane. The birth certificate issued in 1937 could have been a guess at GRO reference of identity by whoever ordered it.
It’s definitely the same Jane and Thomas Doughty family.
What makes you so sure?
ADDED: Crossed posts with you Josephine. I agree, question everything.....
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If you have your great-grandmother's actual birth record from 1910, and the date and location and mother's name and fact of illegitimacy all match the record from the workhouse, then it would seem to be the same person.
If, in fact, that is the same mother and child in the workhouse record, your question as to why she would lie about her age is one that you will probably never be able to answer.
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi Josephine,
Thanks for helping me I really appreciate it.
This info below is really interesting because my great grandmother nellies daughter was called Cecilia Doughty. William Hicks wasn’t a very nice man he abused my grandmother when she was young. I can’t get my head around that he was married to a women called Cecilia doughty before marrying Nellie in 1916
It seems William E Hicks wsa married before Nellie, to a K[C]atherine Cecilia Doughty who died in 1915
Marriages Sep 1904
Doughty Katherine Cecilia Hendon 3a 595
Hicks William Ernest Hendon 3a 595
Robison Isabel Thompson Hendon 3a 595
Wright Charles Hendon 3a 595
1911 show Catherine age 31, son born 1906 MMN Doughty.
Deaths Mar 1915
Hicks Catherine C 34 Fulham 1a 464
However I can find no C[K]athe[a]rine Cecilia Doughty born 1880 +- 2 yrs.
Births Dec 1879
DOUGHTY Catherine Marion Luton 3b 430
Births Jun 1881
Doughty Catherine Adelaide Lincoln 7a 548
Doughty Catherine Emily Bethnal Green 1c 163 S
Births Dec 1883
DOUGHTY Catherine Manchester 8d 243
ADDED: I see 'Nellie age 27' in 1910 was discharged from St John's Road, Islington to Isle of Thanet Workhouse
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If you have your great-grandmother's actual birth record from 1910, and the date and location and mother's name and fact of illegitimacy all match the record from the workhouse, then it would seem to be the same person.
If, in fact, that is the same mother and child in the workhouse record, your question as to why she would lie about her age is one that you will probably never be able to answer.
Do you not think it may have been her name she lied about when she entered the workhouse & afterwards stuck to that name?
1911 baby Cecilia is a nurse child in Thanet, where is Nellie?
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You'd have to purchase those records to see if/how they were all connected.
I've seen cases in which a widower married his deceased wife's sister, so this could be a possibility. But you'd want to check the husband's name, occupation and father's name on both marriage records to prove it's the same guy.
Have you traced the family back in the census records? This info might help you sort out who's who.
Regards,
Josephine
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Do you not think it may have been her name she lied about when she entered the workhouse & afterwards stuck to that name?
1911 baby Cecilia is a nurse child in Thanet, where is Nellie?
Anything is possible, including this suggestion. That's why it helps to take every single "fact" apart and prove or disprove it.
I've seen cases where illegitimate babies were "boarded out" while their mothers lived and worked elsewhere. Those babies tended not to be raised by their mothers afterwards. But that's just a generalization based on what I've seen in my and my husband's trees.
Regards,
Josephine
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Here's a story from my personal experience.
When I started researching my maternal grandfather's family, I came across some conflicting or confusing information.
My aunt had shared her research (all done before the internet) with me, including a date of birth for my great-great-grandfather (I think she had a copy of his birth record).
As I tried to track my family in the census records, I found a boy who matched my g-g-grandfather, but he was with a different set of parents. I had to follow this other guy forward in the census records to see where he was living and his marital status at the time that my g-g-grandfather married my g-g-grandmother, etc.
I had to do this because I couldn't find my own g-g-grandfather in most census years! It turned out that his family was poor and moved around a lot; plus, he and his siblings spent time in various workhouses. It also turned out that he and this other guy were born in the same town, in the same year, with the same name.
But I had to follow the other guy in the various records to make sure that 1) my aunt hadn't made a mistake and put him with the wrong parents, and 2) my g-g-grandmother hadn't mistakenly ordered the wrong birth record for her husband after his death (perhaps in order to qualify for a pension; I couldn't rule anything out, since I didn't know the circumstances under which the certificate had been acquired).
The important thing is to prove everything for yourself.
Regards,
Josephine
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As you say, Josephine, anything is possible. And only a rigorous paper trail can prove or disprove any of our theories.
In 1911, Nellie & sister Jane born 1881 are both at home with widowed mother Jane, neither appear to be working - occupation 'at home'. I wonder if Jane or Catherine is the mother of Cecilia & gave Nellie's name at the workhouse. Then the 1918 death could really be 40 yr old Nellie.
Jane marries William Edward Doughty on 2 Mar 1924 in Greenwich as a 42 yr old single woman giving father Thomas deceased shipwright [same occupation as on her baptism in 1881].
But then who marries William E Hicks in 1916 :-\
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So.....very puzzling!
I think the marriage certs for William Ernest HICKS and both DOUGHTY women would really help.
Nellie (b)1883 London seems to be in Thanet as a servant in 1911.
Catherine HICKS b 1880 (NK) is with William in 1911.
Maureen
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Nellie (b)1883 London seems to be in Thanet as a servant in 1911.
Ah - and Nellie 1878 is at home no occupation with mother see reply #20, so it appears 2 Nellies ?
Nellie 1883
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW6W-CQG
cannot find 1878 Nellie on familysearch
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Thanks ladies,
So when Nellie and her daughter Cecilia were discharged from the workhouse they were transferred to the Kent workhouse and Nellie was put in a hotel to work as a servant and Cecilia was living with a foster mother both are represented on the 1911 census. They were really close to each other and I don’t know how they got back together and made it back to London that info is missing.
This again makes me think that the Nellie living with sister and mother In 1911 can’t be my Nellie.
Perhaps the previous marriage is a clue
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This again makes me think that the Nellie living with sister and mother In 1911 can’t be my Nellie.
And THAT Nellie is most likely the one from the 1878 birth & 1916 death certificates.
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This again makes me think that the Nellie living with sister and mother In 1911 can’t be my Nellie.
And THAT Nellie is most likely the one from the 1878 birth & 1916 death certificates.
I agree. Also...doesn't one of the workhouse records state that Nellie was R.C.?
Thanksgiving Day here in the USA.
I should probably change out of my "sitting at the computer" outfit into normal clothing .
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Happy thanksgiving 🥂
Who the heck is my Nellie then :-\
I did notice on christening records for another child of Jane and Thomas they were christened in a Church of England church, Nellie says she’s RC on the workhouse documents, normally if your catholic you come from a strong catholic background not always but you would think. My Nellie was very religious and took my mum to church so the workhouse Nellie is the right person but I really don’t think that’s her real name.
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Sorry, was typing when you posted, but I'll add the other info...
Agreed, admission record notes Nellie as RC. There's a Catholic baptism 9 Oct 1910 at St Mildred, Ramsgate for Cecilia Nellie daughter of Nellie Doughty, godmother Maria Knight.
Date of birth from her Nellie's death registration is 22 May 1878.
Baptism 16 June 1878 at St Anne, Limehouse for Nellie Doughty daughter of Thomas George, shipwright, & Jane, date of birth noted as 22 May 1878. But this is a C of E baptism, not a Roman Catholic one.
???
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1) Your Nellie Hicks died in 1972; is that correct?
2) Is that her death in the FreeBMD index, listed by Josie in Reply #3, which says she was born on 22 May 1878?
3) Does that date (22 May 1878) match the birth record that your great-aunt gave you?
4) Have you searched for an obit for Nellie, in case it named her parents?
5) Have you searched for a burial or cemetery record for Nellie, which might have named her parents?
Regards,
Josephine
Added: I hope the above doesn't sound grumpy; that's not how it was intended. :)
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There's a Catholic baptism 9 Oct 1910 at St Mildred, Ramsgate for Cecilia Nellie daughter of Nellie Doughty, godmother Maria Knight.
Maria Knight might be a name to follow up to help determine Nellie 1883's family.
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As this is a Catholic record 'Maria' may actually be a 'Mary' Knight.
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Sorry, was typing when you posted, but I'll add the other info...
Agreed, admission record notes Nellie as RC. There's a Catholic baptism 9 Oct 1910 at St Mildred, Ramsgate for Cecilia Nellie daughter of Nellie Doughty, godmother Maria Knight.
???
:)
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,,,
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Extra Islington workhouse records for Nellie Doughty
St. John's Road Workhouse weekly admissions and orders of the board, December 1909-December 1910
Two images
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1R-Q31W-7
Religious creed register (last entry, two images)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1T-29QX-2
On ancestry (uk link)
Islington Orders of Removal, Outwards, 1910
Nellie Doughty to Isle of Thanet
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31363_a109559-00532?ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Or if the link doesn't work, in London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1738-1926
Islington / Islington / Settlement Papers / Orders of Removal, Outwards, 1910 / Image 533
Poorly filmed. And a bit disappointing, content wise. Ends image 536. There may be an exam somewhere of course.
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There may be an exam somewhere of course.
In luck! Pat on the back for myself here (sorry!), first time I've managed to find one in those 19,945 images!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31952_a014964-00579?ssrc=&backlabel=Return
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1738-1926
Islington / Islington / Settlement Papers / Settlement Examinations, 1892-1917 / Image 580
Ends with cover on image 583
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Names father of her child.
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That’s brilliant Jon - sister Kate Hicks too :)
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In luck! Pat on the back for myself here (sorry!), first time I've managed to find one in those 19,945 images!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31952_a014964-00579?ssrc=&backlabel=Return
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1738-1926
Islington / Islington / Settlement Papers / Settlement Examinations, 1892-1917 / Image 580
Ends with cover on image 583
Awesome!!!
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Maybe the birth certificate was not the correct one? why would it have been ordered in 1937?
It does seem that this is what has happened, Nellie had the wrong birth certificate.
Debra :D
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Maybe the birth certificate was not the correct one? why would it have been ordered in 1937?
It does seem that this is what has happened, Nellie had the wrong birth certificate.
Debra :D
I'm so confused. The 1939 Register gives Nellie's d.o.b. as 22 May 1878. Wouldn't she have known her birth date prior to ordering it in 1937? Meaning, even if she ordered it for some reason unknown to us in 1937, if it was for the wrong girl, born on the wrong date, why would she have used the same d.o.b. in 1939? Or is the thinking that there were two Nellie Doughtys born on that date in the London area?
An obit and/or cemetery record might come in handy.
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I don't think she knew who she was. She was at school in a convent from the age of 11 and then in service. She thought she was born c1883 and she is aged 19 in 1901 when she was with the PRITCHARDs.
I'm so confused. The 1939 Register gives Nellie's d.o.b. as 22 May 1878. Wouldn't she have known her birth date prior to ordering it in 1937? Meaning, even if she ordered it for some reason unknown to us in 1937, if it was for the wrong girl, born on the wrong date, why would she have used the same d.o.b. in 1939?
I would say she had a search done and this was the only birth they could find.
Debra :D
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I would say we are talking 2 different Nellie Doughty's, one of whom is a Catholic.
The Nellie born 1878 Poplar is with her widowed mother in 1911 whereas Catholic Nellie is working as a servant in Ramsgate,Kent which ties in with the information found by jonw65.
Nellie bc.1882/3 had a sister 'Kate Hicks' (the Poplar Nellie had no sister named Kate or any variation thereof).
William Ernest Hicks married Katherine Cecilia Doughty in 1904 Hendon. No marriage details available online suggesting register office or Catholic service.
In 1901 when with the Pritchards in Margate she is listed as Nellie Dougherty (?) and shown born Chelsea (?). Where was her sister in 1901 I wonder?
Annette
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If I've identified the right listing for William Ernest Hicks and his wife Catherine Hicks in 1911, Catherine's birthplace is listed as unknown.
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There is this Kate but if it is her, not much help.
1891 97/156
Kate Dowty 12 yrs born London is in a ‘Home for Waifs and Strays’ in St Marylebone’.
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Great work jon & all; all beginning to come together. I agree that Nellie [mother of Cecilia] somehow got hold of the wrong birth certificate & assumed the birthdate. Overnight I was wondering whether Katherine & Nellie were born in Ireland & had determined to look for them there!! But overnight you've all been putting together the clues already provided & finding others. I think we're nearly there.
As Josephine says, it seems Kate did not know where she was born, so maybe the sisters were orphans or abandonned?
ADDED: Names father of her child.
Also says 'I expect confinement Sept next'.
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Blimey I’m shocked and can’t thank you guys and John enough for all your help you’ve literally been amazing I wish I could hug you all!
I’m in shock, we’ve had this mystery of Nellie and who Cecilias father even my great aunts said Nellie has no family and the family that were living in Manchester street as per the Nellie who died in 1918 had a big family with cousins sometimes staying with them. I just always had a feeling that it wasn’t her family.
I think my Nellie ordered a birth certificate and got hold of another Nellie by mistake and maybe just went with it?
I can’t thank you guys enough really I’m so bloody grateful for all your help.
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Just wanted to join in swiftly to say what great research :)
And how sad is it that someone really doesn't know who they are.......great glimpse into the lives of the late Victorians and the poor :(
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So unusual to get the father's name as well. That is a huge bonus.
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Literally no ones has EVER known the identity of Cecilia’s father not even poor Cecilia herself.
I’m so shocked in a good way.
Katie Hicks must be K-Catherine Hicks then.
Can anyone read the surname and profession for me I can’t quite make it out.
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It's William Clauss commercial clerk however if he is actually German it may be Willem Klaus
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Agree with Ivor - wonderful reseach and thread
For those with access to Anc this looks like Kate's admission to St Paul's Bentinck School was on 27 Aug 1889 and her birth date listed as 28 Nov 1878 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q2v/
Kay
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That's a good find - says Kate came from St Mary's - I wonder if Nellie is there in 1891? Also Kate entered under auspices of a Mrs Davies so no parents around.
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That's a good find - says Kate came from St Mary's - I wonder if Nellie is there in 1891? Also Kate entered under auspices of a Mrs Davies so no parents around.
The residence for Mrs Davies was 123 Marylebone Road. It was a "waifs and strays society" children's home.
http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/MaryleboneOldQuebecWS/?LMCL=Wkl63N
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I wonder if there are any archives of the Convent of the Daughters of the Cross? Maybe the Kent FHS may know. Might shed light on why she was there, parents etc.
Nellie had an amazing memory for names & addresses! Pity she doesn't say where she was before Margate at age 11.
Yes, I gathered Mrs Davies was a guardian for the waifs & strays.
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There is also this family but the age is out re Helen/Ellen
1881 84/53/4
Charles and Margaret Doherty with children Charles 9 yrs and
Catherine 4 yrs b Chelsea
Helen 1 yr born Chelsea
GRO shows mother as Healey - Ellen Dorthey
In 1891 727/38
There is a Catherine M Dogherty b 1879 Chelsea in the Children’s Convalescent Home, Grosvenor Place, Margate.
Looking this up, it seems to have been run by the Daughters of the Cross.
(Nellie’s statement gives this order of nuns)
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In 1901 when with the Pritchards in Margate she is listed as Nellie Dougherty (?) and shown born Chelsea (?).
This might possibly be her trail, possibly had a sister Catherine, but is it our Nellie Doughty :-\ Really don't know.
Both are a bit older on these records....
1881 in Chelsea are Catherine Doherty, 4, and Nellie Doherty, 1
Parents Charles, 31, and Margaret, 27. Also there is Charles, 9
Birth registrations?
DOHERTY, CATHERINE
Mother's Maiden Surname: HEALEY
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 318
DORTHEY, ELLEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: HEALEY
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in CHELSEA Volume 01A Page 371
Then we have the girls in the workhouse schools system, Chelsea
Catherine in 1884, Ellen in 1889 (mother Margaret Healey, workhouse)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1R-Q9MM-J
(Better image in those London poor law records on ancestry (Kensington and Chelsea / Chelsea / Register of Children / Schools and Children, 1885-1896 / Image 305)
They were discharged to Totteridge
And that is St Edward's School, which is further on in the book (image 353 on ancestry)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1R-Q9MM-F
Girls discharged to Lawn House, Margate. Catherine in 1891, Ellen in 1892
Could this be the Convent of the Daughters of the Cross? :-\
Ellen was there five and half years, before going to into service in 1898
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/31537_215001-00356?backlabel=Return
Kensington and Chelsea / Chelsea / Register of Children / Schools and Children, 1885-1898 / Image 357
Yet to find it on FamilySearch :(
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Just beaten to it by heywood! ;D
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Jon, you have given a lot more detail than me but backs up my finds - posted just before you ;)
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Lawn House is the Daughters of the Cross - Grosvenor Place
I’m off to collect our groceries now, Jon ;)
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Lawn House is the Daughters of the Cross - Grosvenor Place
That is promising. Well done!
John
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So Ellen (Nellie) should be Totteridge in 1891.
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This could be her in Totteridge in 91
Ellen Dogherty, 10
No place of birth given
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q6CF-33Z
Doghouly on ancestry.
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Maybe Charles snr's death?
Deaths Jun 1882
Dogherty Charles 32 Chelsea 1a 212
[age 31 in 1881]
And parents' marriage
Marriages Dec 1871
Doherty Charles Kensington 1a 340
Healy Margaret Kensington 1a 340
Joslin Eliza Kensington 1a 340
Mogford William Kensington 1a 340
ADDED: On ancestry there's a workhouse admission of a Charles Doherty aged 24 [Strand] 3 Jul 1895 Dead 28 Nov 1895 - could be Charles jnr.
Deaths Dec 1895
Doherty Charles 24 Pancras 1b 30
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Maybe Charles snr's death?
Deaths Jun 1882
Dogherty Charles 32 Chelsea 1a 212
[age 31 in 1881]
Margaret (widow), Kate and Ellen Doherty go into the Chelsea workhouse, 15 Feb 1884
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-WQ3J-Y
Well done for finding that marriage, I thought there wasn't one! Why did it say Ellen's mother was Margaret Healey on the school records?
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I've made an addition to previous post with possible Charles jnr's death. Wonder where he is in 1891?
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Oh great finds :)
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Marriage certificate of Charles & Margaret would be useful.....
Kate's son died in 1982.
Deaths Dec 1982
HICKS FRANK WILLIAM E 8JE1906 I O W 20 1966
Would be worth Caitie777 trying to find descendants. Address on probate 26 Colombus Hse, Sandown Road, Shanklin.
A quick browse of freebmd shows that Frank married in 1932, had a son born 1943 who married in 1983, 2 daughters born I O W 1984, 1985. Who knows they may be interested in hearing from descendants of Kate's sister.
ADDED: I have pm'ed Caitie with names.
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I thought Charles Jr poss died in 1885 :-\
Charles Doherty Age 12
1885 March Qtr J Brentford Vol 3a Page 41
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Wow I’m not being rude not replying I’m just trying to take all this in.
Can I just go back to the 1911 census. I did think it was odd Catherine said birthplace unknown but also her birth year would be 1880. The Catherine and Ellen on the school records etc is a different birth year?
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Ah maybe he was in an orphanage in Brentford? Only the death certs can sort it out although even those may not state father or mother.
Caitie - it seems neither sister know much about their origins/birth dates & place. I have to say I am intrigued by the name Cecilia, wonder if the girls used it as a tribute to someone they knew? Or was it a baptismal name given in the RC church?
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I wondered if it was a confirmation name and they both took whilst in the home.
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Ah yes, that's the correct term & occasion, thanks.
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Just to add a bit about Charles.
He was the first into the workhouse in Chelsea, on 21 Aug 1882
It says Mother Mrs Doherty, 3 Wickham Place. Which is their address in the 1881 census.
And that Charles was to go to "North Hyde Schools" (so there may be more records for him)
Images on FamilySearch (and is on ancestry in the workhouse records)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-4Q4T-Q
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Another triumph of persistence, jon ;).
North Hyde Schools from wikipaedia
"Before the 18th century, North Hyde formed part of the infamous Hounslow Heath. In 1842, the former barracks were taken over by the Belgian Catholic order of the Brothers of Our Lady of Mercy and turned into an orphanage for Roman Catholic boys (St Mary's Orphanage). In 1914 it was reconstituted as an Industrial School; it closed in 1934 and the buildings were later demolished."
So near Brentford then....and probably in that reg district.
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Margaret states b 1854 Marylebone in 1881.
1871 86/24/39
Margaret Healy 17 yrs b Marylebone with parents Michael and Margaret and siblings
Birth
1854 Marylebone
Margaret Healey mmn Connor
I was wondering if there was a Cecilia around but can’t see one.
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Wow I’m not being rude not replying I’m just trying to take all this in.
Can I just go back to the 1911 census. I did think it was odd Catherine said birthplace unknown but also her birth year would be 1880. The Catherine and Ellen on the school records etc is a different birth year?
I can't speak for everyone else but it looks like they're following leads and sharing information as they find it so others can search, too. When they've found all they can, I expect someone will put it all together and examine the discrepancies, give you some advice on where to look for more info, etc.
It's not unusual for ages to vary in different records over time. I've got an ancestor who got younger with each census. I've seen cases of women making themselves younger when they married a younger man. And some people didn't know exactly when they were born.
Regards,
Josephine
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It's William Clauss commercial clerk however if he is actually German it may be Willem Klaus
This could be the beginning of a fascinating DNA journey.
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I wonder if there are any archives of the Convent of the Daughters of the Cross? Maybe the Kent FHS may know. Might shed light on why she was there, parents etc.
I was wondering the same thing. That would be so awesome.
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This William looks a good candidate - in 1911 he was a Commercial Traveller - and also married!!
1901 Tooting Graveney
Marie Klaus 60 b Germany
William Klaus 23 son Lambeth
Caroline Klaus 21
William Goebel 43 Boarder
Added - I think he was born Clemens Wilhelm Klaus 1877 June Qtr Lambeth Vol 1d Page 414 mothers maiden name VON LEHENNER
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27Q-KM6J
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:o :o hadn't even thought of looking for him!!
ADDED: If he is Clemens Wilhelm Klaus - he may have died in Florida
Clemens Wilhelm Klause
Death 1952
Orange, Florida, United States
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Wow I’m still trying to take all this info in, I did find this immigration record.
Name: W Clauss
Port of Departure: Baltimore, Maryland, United States
Arrival Date: 18 Oct 1908
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: New York
Ship Name: Mobile
Shipping Line: Atlantic Transport Co Ltd
Official Number: 97855
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Can anyone read the first couple of lines I can’t quite make it out.
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Why do you think Nellie gave William Clauss name on the workhouse documents but not on Cecilias birth certificate it says father unknown
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Can anyone read the first couple of lines I can’t quite make it out.
I read it as...
"Woman states above address 6 weeks next before 29 Barron Street Pentonville 3 months next before 80 Queens Road Finsbury Park"
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Why do you think Nellie gave William Clauss name on the workhouse documents but not on Cecilias birth certificate it says father unknown
I understand that an unmarried father has to be present to sign the register for him to be listed on the birth cert
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=790269.msg6460885#msg6460885
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Why do you think Nellie gave William Clauss name on the workhouse documents but not on Cecilias birth certificate it says father unknown
I understand that an unmarried father has to be present to sign the register for him to be listed on the birth cert
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=790269.msg6460885#msg6460885
Plus, she might not have done it if she knew he was married. (It's a possibility.)
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Interesting Klaus tree on Anc that might be worth looking at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/30889586/person/12375258347/facts
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The report ends abruptly re William. ‘He is now’ and then it looks like ‘in’ underneath that which is odd as that word would fit next to ‘now’.
Is that right? I haven’t misunderstood or missed something else.
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The report ends abruptly re William. ‘He is now’ and then it looks like ‘in’ underneath that which is odd as that word would fit next to ‘now’.
Is that right? I haven’t misunderstood or missed something else.
The rest is on the next page
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I was omitting the left had pages ::)
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I’m not a dna match to anyone with
Clemens Wilhelm KLAUS in their trees :(
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So did I until you mentioned it and I checked the page numbers :-\
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"He was a lodger at 80 Queens Road Finsbury Park"
Thomas Walter Paterson was the occupant of 80 Queens Road, Finsbury Park, in the electoral register of 1911, and the preceding years
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99FL-M34R?i=665
This might be him and his household in the free index to the last census (we can't do look ups)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWG7-ZZ6
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Hmmm I noticed Thomas Walter Paterson the building owners occupation was listed as “RETIRED TRAVELLER“ on the 1911 census.
In a previous message above it says William klaus profession was Commercial Traveller
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"He was a lodger at 80 Queens Road Finsbury Park"
Thomas Walter Paterson was the occupant of 80 Queens Road, Finsbury Park, in the electoral register of 1911, and the preceding years
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99FL-M34R?i=665
This might be him and his household in the free index to the last census (we can't do look ups)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWG7-ZZ6
Since 80 Queens Road was one of the places Nellie lived this was presumably where they met.
Annette
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Thank you all again for every comment and bit of research I really appreciate it. I will update you on my findings and this weekend I am putting everything together and hopefully will get a better idea of how all the evidence stacks up.
Thanks again x
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I’m not a dna match to anyone with Clemens Wilhelm KLAUS in their trees :(
Not everyone in the tree will have taken a DNA test I am sure, and he is 4 generations back.
AND - we only have Nellie's word for it that he is the father - he could be a scapegoat as had 'gone to Germany' & could not be questioned.
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👏Just popping in to say that this is a most fascinating thread. I am quite in awe watching all the help that has been forthcoming. Amazing work from all you RootsChatters contributing - this feels like being part of an audience to RootsChat at its finest!! :D
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Ah thanks, everyone has contributed something useful & it is a pleasure to be part of the unravelling of a mystery!! Still more to be revealed I am sure, Nellie's parents & their forebears need more research!!
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Totally agree with river Tyne lass
Re DNA have you colour coded location matches the DNA will be small to descendant of the birth father that far back but you may get a cluster that share with each other and /or have a common name on their tree
Have other members of your family tested ? My cousin and I match a descendant of gggfather at 11cm and 13 cm respectively some of our 2ndC1r also match but my mother who is a generation closer doesn't match.... occasionally there are blimps like that
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Stunning research. Looking forward to more revelations
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This is Nellie on the left with a friend- I wonder if this is Maria the godmother on her daughters baptism certificate
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Lovely to see the subject of all our research. Thank you.
Are you in a position to get the marriage certificate of Charles Doherty & Margaret Heal[e]y Caitie? Let us know when you are - it'll cost £11 from GRO.gov.uk
Marriages Dec 1871
Doherty Charles Kensington 1a 340
Healy Margaret Kensington 1a 340
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Yes I’ve ordered it already! X
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What an excellent thread with equally excellent combined sleuthing & effort, well done all.
Quite a sad life for the family when you see all the facts, it would make a good book.
Annie
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Update:
Death certificate for Catherine Cecilia Hicks,
Can anyone read what the cause is please. I can share the whole thing I’m not sure what the guidelines are x
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Peritonitis. Appendix bursr
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In full:
Syncope due to haemorrhage into peritoneal cavity following rupture of extra uterine gestation accelerated by shock of operation. Misadventure [then initials of doctor].
Sounds like an ectopic pregnancy which ruptured during an operation then haemorrhage & shock. How sad.
BTW you were quite right just to post a clip.
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Oh blooming heck that’s so sad :-[