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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: pigletlovesfamily on Wednesday 25 November 20 00:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
My cousin twice removed died aged only 25, in 1908, so I was intrigued to see what killed him. Appendicitis, in hospital, but the informant of his death was an unknown person who was living at the family home. His death cert said he was "a Valet of Burton U.D. " in Staffs. However his burial notice, only 3 days later said he was a Licenced Victualler. Could this have been a mishearing, or was it possible? The only other evidence I have for him was in 1901 when he was a footman at Armathwaite Hall, Bassenthwaite, Cumberland.
Many thanks in anticipation.
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Are you willing to divulge his name? That might assist us in helping you.
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Was he Joseph Finlay, aged 22, b. York?
RG13/4879/78/16
I did an address search.
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Maybe post a snip just incase it reads different to others?
Annie
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Are you willing to divulge his name? That might assist us in helping you.
He was Charles Edward Howard, born Sep Q in Chesterfield, died 9 Oct 1908 in hospital in Burton upon Trent.
Note his name was reversed, but the family address was on his death cert. Also his family made a habit of swapping their names around.
I looked a bit more and wondered if the informant was Edward Philip Ashcroft as he was still in Brook Street in 1911 C E Howard's mother, Herodius, had moved to Leafield Place, New Scarboro, Yeadon, Wharfedale, Yorkshire by 1911 as she was now widowed. She was here with her son, Walter. I hope the snips help you to make a decision.
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Was he Joseph Finlay, aged 22, b. York?
RG13/4879/78/16
I did an address search.
No. Thanks for looking. This whole line have been a confusing mystery.
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Well, your man was not at the Armathwaite Hotel on the 1901 census.
The only other evidence I have for him was in 1901 when he was a footman at Armathwaite Hall, Bassenthwaite, Cumberland.
He might have been there before or after but not then. How did you find him there in 1901?
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Well, your man was not at the Armathwaite Hotel on the 1901 census.
The only other evidence I have for him was in 1901 when he was a footman at Armathwaite Hall, Bassenthwaite, Cumberland.
He might have been there before or after but not then. How did you find him there in 1901?
Sorry, Gadget, but he was indeed at Armathwaite Hall in 1901.
Annette
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Yes, I saw him later as a 'do' :-[
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Well, your man was not at the Armathwaite Hotel on the 1901 census.
The only other evidence I have for him was in 1901 when he was a footman at Armathwaite Hall, Bassenthwaite, Cumberland.
He might have been there before or after but not then. How did you find him there in 1901?
Sorry, Gadget, but he was indeed at Armathwaite Hall in 1901.
Annette
He is getting us all to tear our hair out, isn't he? His father was even worse and involved a Will made in 1895 which may never have been proved. I have the original but it is not listed in probate anywhere. The family who should have inherited knew nothing about it. Very strange. I only tackle this family in small doses!
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I expect that he was hiding in the broom cupboard when I first found the census entry and came out when I was working on a photo restoration ;)
I looked through the newspapers of the time but couldn't find anything. I'm assuming that the person giving the occupation to the registrar for his death cert was different from the one giving the info for his burial. Do you know who he valeted for?
Gadget
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This is when you wish the DC was a Scottish one as it would not only give the place of death but also the usual residence.
What was the occupation of Edward Philip Ashcroft, could he have worked with Charles Edward, if not, he may have got his 'V's mixed up :-\
Annie
Add...Just noticed his address for burial was Richmond Street :-[
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This is when you wish the DC was a Scottish one as it would not only give the place of death but also the usual residence.
What was the occupation of Edward Philip Ashcroft, could he have worked with Charles Edward, if not, he may have got his 'V's mixed up :-\
Annie
Add...Just noticed his address for burial was Richmond Street :-[
I did wonder this too when I searched last night for the informant. But in 1911 he was a Cooper.
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This is when you wish the DC was a Scottish one as it would not only give the place of death but also the usual residence.
What was the occupation of Edward Philip Ashcroft, could he have worked with Charles Edward, if not, he may have got his 'V's mixed up :-\
Annie
Add...Just noticed his address for burial was Richmond Street :-[
I had added this new address to his notes but not taken any notice. Maybe this was where he worked.
All of this points to me having made an error, until I bought his burial details and discovered Howard, Herodias Drury 4 November 1924
Howard, Edward Charles 12 October 1908
Howard, George Frederick 26 December 1897
Howard, Alfred George 4 February 1894
This grave had been purchased.
Herodias was his mother, Alfred George his father and GF his brother.
So I do have the right man. Now what? Trace the informant backwards? He was widowed by 1911 and was a Cooper aged 77.
Thanks for your observations.
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Thinking aloud here...
If Edward delivered his barrels to an hotel & Charles took delivery then it would seem they knew each other but the person dealing with the burial may have assumed Charles to be more than 'just' a valet?
What is the distance between both addresses?
Annie
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Thinking aloud here...
If Edward delivered his barrels to an hotel & Charles took delivery then it would seem they knew each other but the person dealing with the burial may have assumed Charles to be more than 'just' a valet?
What is the distance between both addresses?
Annie
I have now traced Ashcroft. In 1841 his mother was living on her own and called Elizabeth Philip, hence his full name, They lived in Shadwell, London. His parents married in 1838 and he was born the previous year.
1856 he married and had 9 kids.
1861 he was a Cooper living in Deptford, Kent
In 1871 EPA was a Cooper, married to Amelia Gray on 30 Jul 1856 in Bethnal Green, and living in Moor St., Burton with their children. His marr. cert says his father was a Cooper, like him.
1881 marr to Frances Greatorex in Burton, married in Jun Q
Shadwell had many Coopers because of the proximity to London Docks, but I suppose any barrel would suffice if he actually made them. In Burton they would be used to store beer. BTW I cannot yet trace a death for either wife!
Google says the two addresses are a fraction under a mile apart. Roll on the 1921 census. This line lived mainly in London, but Charles' father moved up to Burton. To my great surprise hubby's relative was living next door, almost, to them in 1891. They were not from Burton either.
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Thinking out loud again. I thought that Ashcroft made the barrels, being a Cooper, not delivered them, especially as it was his father's trade. I came across several Coopers in the Shadwell area when I was tracing another line. I do not think he ran an hotel though as he was only a Licensed Victualler. This was not a wealthy family.
Thanks for helping.
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Yes, you're correct, I'd been back in 1901 at the 'hotel' ::)
This is odd to me as I haven't seen an English DC where someone other than a relative was the informant, however, I've seen countless Scottish ones & usually, if the informant isn't a family member, details of some sort are recorded e.g. neighbour/friend/occupant/inmate etc. & often their address so it's odd there's no 'qualification' info. on EPA?
It would be good to find out just what the address at Richmond Street was, except there's no number on the burial record, however, it's worth finding out if there was a pub in the street if nothing else?
Have you found both on ERs?
This is by my reckoning...
You have Charles on 2 occasions as a 'servant' type occ...
1901 - Footman (hotel)
1908 - Valet (on death cert)
1908 - Licenced Victualler (on burial)
Could Charles have been a Valet to Edward as well as being a Licensed Victualler :-\
Annie
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Yes, you're correct, I'd been back in 1901 at the 'hotel' ::)
This is odd to me as I haven't seen an English DC where someone other than a relative was the informant, however, I've seen countless Scottish ones & usually, if the informant isn't a family member, details of some sort are recorded e.g. neighbour/friend/occupant/inmate etc. & often their address so it's odd there's no 'qualification' info. on EPA?
It would be good to find out just what the address at Richmond Street was, except there's no number on the burial record, however, it's worth finding out if there was a pub in the street if nothing else?
Have you found both on ERs?
This is by my reckoning...
You have Charles on 2 occasions as a 'servant' type occ...
1901 - Footman (hotel)
1908 - Valet (on death cert)
1908 - Licenced Victualler (on burial)
Could Charles have been a Valet to Edward as well as being a Licensed Victualler :-\
Annie
I looked at other dcs, but if it was not a family member then the relationship to the deceased was not given, although the address was. I have quite a few who died in hospital. One cert, for my gt grandmother, was verified by a coroner of no address as a post mortem was carried out after misadventure during an operation.
Both Richmond St and Brook st were mid terrace houses. In those days people did sell alcohol from their home, but I did not realise this late as prior to this I found them in the 1850s
As a servant.
In 1901 he was living at Armathwaite Hall where he was employed as a footman to look after the Hartley family. 14 staff were employed here.
It is now a listed building, courtesy of English Heritage
Never an hotel when he worked there.
1908 a valet...my husband roared with laughter when mentioned this. A valet in Burton??? He would have lived in if so, so I wonder if the informant had no idea. A cooper would not have had a valet if he was living in the family terrace house. He would be living in something far grander.
Now to search for a place where he could have been a Victualler.
Lorna
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Is it possible EPA was related in some way as he was 'present at death'?
I've seen DCs with 'Procurator Fiscal' as the informant but it's self explanatory without an address.
Is it possible he hadn't seen Charles since his 'Footman' days at Armathwaite Hall where he possibly then became a 'Valet' there prior to becoming a 'Licenced Victualler' which Edward was unaware of?
It's a hard one to work out to be honest with the odd combination.
Annie
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"the informant of his death was an unknown person who was living at the family home"...
But it reads as though Charles lived at Richmond Street & Edward lived at 8 Brook Street?
Do you know which family member was living at Richmond Street in 1911?
Annie
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"the informant of his death was an unknown person who was living at the family home"...
But it reads as though Charles lived at Richmond Street & Edward lived at 8 Brook Street?
Do you know which family member was living at Richmond Street in 1911?
Annie
Is it possible EPA was related in some way as he was 'present at death'?
I've seen DCs with 'Procurator Fiscal' as the informant but it's self explanatory without an address.
Is it possible he hadn't seen Charles since his 'Footman' days at Armathwaite Hall where he possibly then became a 'Valet' there prior to becoming a 'Licenced Victualler' which Edward was unaware of?
It's a hard one to work out to be honest with the odd combination.
Annie
Related? EPA was born in Stepney, London, my man in Derbyshire, and his ancestors from St Albans, so very unlikely. I wonder if Mrs Herodius maybe asked EPA to pop along for her to register the death. Just seen that in 1901 she was living in Brook Street with another lodger. As her husband had died in 1894 she must have needed another income, although she was 45 and may have worked elsewhere. Being a landlady is far easier. Two of her sons married after 1901, leaving just Charles to help, so no wonder she moved north, to Yorkshire, by 1911 to live with one of her sons.
If I could find the missing wives that might help. I did wonder if the first one went to New York, with their children. This is turning into rather a long saga, isn't it?
Family members were at Brook Street, but no idea who was at the other address. Not brother Alfred as his children were born in Hartshorne and the other brother was also married then. The problem with this family is that they seemed to move house far too frequently.
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I haven't looked at any census' i.e. no idea when Herodias was born but this looks a possible...
Deaths Dec 1924
Howard Herodias D 76 Wharfedale 9a 185
Annie
Add...I'm now confused with who's deaths you can't find & I'm now assuming you already have the above from the details on the burial records?
Can you please give their names & approx. yob?
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I haven't looked at any census' i.e. no idea when Herodias was born but this looks a possible...
Deaths Dec 1924
Howard Herodias D 76 Wharfedale 9a 185
Annie
Add...I'm now confused with who's deaths you can't find & I'm now assuming you already have the above from the details on the burial records?
Can you please give their names & approx. yob?
Yes that is right re Herodius and her death. I was looking for the deaths of the two wives of Edward, in the hopes that I would get more information about where they were all living. He was married in the 1871 census, then I found another marr in Burton, but in 1911 when he was at Brook Street, the Howard family home, he said he was widowed. The Howards lived here from the 1891 census onwards. Charles' father and brother both died here, in 1894 and in 1897. In 1901 another brother was a milkman and living in Wyggeston St, Burton. I did find a biggish pub in this area, abut did not feel convinced. Herodius was here in 1901, and Edward in 1908. Where though was Edward in 1881, 1891 and 1901?
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In order to have a look at the Edward situation can you please do a summary of him to include all you know to save scrolling to find everything?
Annie
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In order to have a look at the Edward situation can you please do a summary of him to include all you know to save scrolling to find everything?
Annie
I did not save anything re Edward as I thought he would be easy. Obviously not! I shall do it tomorrow now as we are about to go to bed.
Thanks a lot for sticking with me on this trip.
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Not sure if I am following this correctly but perhaps Mr Ashcroft was lodging with Herodias or living with her.
Amelia died in NY where she and the children had emigrated to in 1880.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WY6-DTS
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Not sure if I am following this correctly but perhaps Mr Ashcroft was lodging with Herodias or living with her.
Amelia died in NY where she and the children had emigrated to in 1880.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WY6-DTS
Hello, I thought I had seen Amelia in New York, but needed to check on her kids before deciding that it was her. This is not right as this Amelia was born the same year as her husband, and says her father was Edward and mother Amelia. Plus she was widowed, which ours was not, until 1930. Only just woken up so need a coffee to get my brain working! At first I thought it was a child of Edward and Amelia. Maybe a typo for her age. This is so so confusing.
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Does this help?
Immigration records show:
Amelia 40 yrs wife
James 10 yrs
Mary 8 yrs
Alice 7 yrs
Walter 6 yrs
Herbert 4 yrs
Amelia is born abt 1840 in this record
Her death record shows birth abt 1837
1861 census shows abt 1839
If the couple separated, she might refer to herself as a widow - or her family did.
There is a separate entry on the same ship for Amelia 21 yrs with 5yr old Alfred.
This Amelia marries in 1887
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2434-R4F
There are records for the others.
I can’t see an immigration record for Edward. :-\
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Does this help?
Immigration records show:
Amelia 40 yrs wife
James 10 yrs
Mary 8 yrs
Alice 7 yrs
Walter 6 yrs
Herbert 4 yrs
Amelia is born abt 1840 in this record
Her death record shows birth abt 1837
1861 census shows abt 1839
If the couple separated, she might refer to herself as a widow - or her family did.
There is a separate entry on the same ship for Amelia 21 yrs with 5yr old Alfred.
This Amelia marries in 1887
There are records for the others.
I can’t see an immigration record for Edward. :-\
Thanks. I have now found all the births. In 1911 father said he had had 9 children. He could not count!
ASHCROFT, AMELIA SIBILLA
GRO Ref: 1857 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C
ASHCROFT, EDWARD JOHN
GRO Ref: 1859 J Q in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST
ASHCROFT, WILLIAM JAMES
GRO Ref: 1861 M Quarter in GREENWICH
ASHCROFT, ESTHER ALICE
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in STEPNEY
ASHCROFT, ALFRED CHARLES GRO Ref: 1867 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN
Henry Ashcroft born 2 9 1869 in St Botolph, London twin to James
ASHCROFT, ALICE ELIZABETH
GRO Ref: 1871 D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT Volume 06B
ASHCROFT, WALTER ERNEST GRO Ref: 1873 D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT
ASHCROFT, HERBERT GRO Ref: 1876 M Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT
ASHCROFT, WALTER ERNEST GRO Ref 1873 D Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT
ASHCROFT, LEONARD
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in BURTON UPON TRENT Volume 06B
This roughly ties up with the shipping manifest for Amelia. Who was Mary though?
What I thought was a 2nd marr for Edward was for his son, Edward John, in 1881
I also found Amelia the wife in the workhouse in 1859 with Edward and Amelia, her children. No sign of hubby, yet they were together by 1861. Maybe he went in search of work, as proved by the census and by the birthplaces of their children.
The 1929 death in NY is definitely the daug Amelia as this time her parents are correct, unlike the death record for her mother Amelia.
In 1925 Amelia was living in the same building as her brother Walter, so I think we can safely say that she and all her children emigrated permanently.
So timeline for Edward: born in Shadwell abt 1837
1841 with Elizabeth Philips...possibly an aunt
1851 in Tower Hamlets with his parents, father a cooper
1856 married to Amelia Gray in Bethnal Green. He was a Cooper
1859 wife discharged from workhouse with eldest two children. Edward had a possible acquittal for larceny.
1885 Edward, belonging to Bethnal Green, was discharged from Islington workhouse, having been admitted Dec 1884, if it is him as he had a different occup. However the Bethnal Green mention makes it seem likely that it is him. In 1884 he was in and out of the Workhouse.
Now found the Edward a block cutter who was in the workhouse, in 1881. He said he was born in Scotland, so not my one as I have now found this one in Scotland with his parents.
In 1901 Herodius Howard had two other lodgers living with her in Brook Street
No trace of him from 1871 until 1908 when he was the informant of the Howard death and was living with the mother of Charles Howard in Brook Street.
1911 he was an out of work cooper still living in Brook Street. Mrs Howard had by now moved to New Scarboro, Yeadon, Wharfedale to live with one of her sons.
Until we view the 1921 census we won't know Edward's address, or I could buy his death cert. As he is not my family I won't be bothering.
1930 died aged 96 in Burton as Edward P. Ashcroft which matches other docs., buried 22 Oct 1930 in Burton.
Now found school records for Charles. He attended 14 Oct 1889 - 6 Nov 1889 and was born 27 May 1883. He also attended a primary school shortly before this, so not well educated!
Thank you so much for all your help
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I have now closed this topic as I think we have gone as far as is possible, until the 1921 census is released. Thank you so much all of you for your input which was much appreciated.