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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: HannahB92 on Wednesday 18 November 20 09:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I am hoping that you all may be able to help me. I am a beginner and have had wonderful help from the forum before so i thought i would ask for help again. When researching my mother's family i have come across some Scottish heritage that i am not able to find complete information for and unfortunately a lot of them have the same name! Here is what i have so far:
My 2nd great-grandfather, Walter Gibson Fraser, was born in Glasgow on 22nd April 1864.
He married Ellen Mary Frizzell sometime in Ireland in 1891.
They had i believe 7 children? (Thomas, Mary Hamilton, Walter G, Alexander Frizzell, Henry, Annie and Norman) - i have not been able to find any complete records confirming the children and only have census records to go from.
Mary Hamilton is my Great Grandmother and was actually born in Ireland. I had thought she was Irish but her family all originate from Scotland.
I believe Thomas Fraser may have gone into the army and died there in 1915 but have no records to confirm it is the same Thomas Fraser.
Walter may have died in Belfast but i cannot trace a death certificate for him.
Walter's father was William Fraser who was born sometime around 1841 in Wigtownshire? (again, cannot find a definitive record to confirm date of birth)
He married Mary Hamilton on 2 Feb 1864. She must have already been pregnant at this time as Walter Gibson was born in April of 1864.
It looks like William & Mary had 6 children? (Walter Gibson (man above), Mary Jane Hamilton, Marjory Hamilton, Margaret, Jessie and William)
I cannot find a definitive date of death for him.
William's father was also a William Fraser and was born sometime around 1815 in Dundee. I have no records and can only find him on later census with estimated year of birth.
He had maybe 6 children with a woman named Janet (maybe Jennet?) McDowall but i cannot find a marriage certificate or parish record so this may not be accurate as i took this from census records. Children named as follows: Helen, Jessie Logan, William, Alexander, Archibald and Isabella.
I have no date of death for him either and cannot find any record of his birth to find his parents.
If anyone can fill in any gaps or point me in the right direction i would be most grateful. It is very confusing with so many William Frasers! I am very eager to find out about my Scottish Heritage and possible Clan. My mother had this gorgeous woollen blanket tartan since she was married at 19 and it was a gift from my Grandfather who told my mother it was the family tartan colours and i now know it must be from the Fraser family.
Sorry if any of this seems confusing by the way!
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The family in 1841 census?
William Fraser 16 months old. His father is absent.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a158fd9f4040b9d6eac2803/william-fraser-1841-wigtownshire-portpatrick-1840-?locale=en
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Walter may have died in Belfast but i cannot trace a death certificate for him.
There is this on find a grave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/183469658/walter-fraser
And searching here. https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ for the death reg Gives just 1 result. I haven’t registered to look more closely.
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Do you have the 1864 marriage certificate for William and Mary Hamilton?
What are all the details on this record?
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Thomas Fraser may have gone into the army and died there in 1915 but have no records to confirm it is the same Thomas Fraser.
Ancestry has a record on Fold3 that has Walter Gibson Fraser as Thomas’s father. Indexed thus:
Thomas Arthur Fraser
Rank: Private
Record Type: Card
Death Date: 25 Sep 1915
Service Number: 7750
Corps, Regiment or Unit: Scottish Rifles Cameronians
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Died Fraser J-Freeman E
Reference Number: 13/D/9754
Next of Kin:
Name Relation to Soldier
Thomas Arthur Fraser
Walter Gibson Fraser. Father
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Hi Neale1961,
I did not find this census but the names and ages seem to match up to the details that I have. Not sure why he would be classed as absent, I am assuming he was living elsewhere when the census was done. Thanks so much for posting that for me!
Mckha489,
I saw this on findagrave also and assumed it could be him but there where no details to confirm it and there seem to be a lot of Frasers haha.
Neal1961,
I do not have the marriage certificate for William and Mary Hamilton, i just have a basic transcript which lists the place as: Tradeston,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
Mckha489,
Thanks so much for the info about Thomas! This must be him as the father name is an exact match!
Thanks so much everyone, this is great so far thanks
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You need to register on Scotlands People, purchase some credits, and start to collect your family information.
Start with William’s 1864 marriage in Tradeston
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
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Here’s Walter & Ellen’s marriage in 1891 in Belfast:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1891/10681/5892782.pdf
I see he was a riveter. The big shipbuilders like Harland & Wolff had yards in places like Glasgow, Belfast, Liverpool & Southampton and you often see folk from one location working in another, presumably because of local shortages. So that’s possibly what took him to Belfast.
I haven’t checked them individually but I see some births in Belfast as follows:
Mary 17.9.1892
Alexander 4.2.1894 (presumably died as name re-used)
Walter 6.4.1896
John 25.1.1898
Alexander 13.3.1900.
You can use the GRONI site to search for others. Here’s the first Alexander:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02275/1854704.pdf
Walter Fraser is in grave I3 61 in the City Cemetery. Belfast. Also buried there are Alexander died 23.10.1896, Ellen Mary 7th May 1923, John Frizzell Fraser 21.11.1907 & John Frazer 26.5.1900.
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saw this on findagrave also and assumed it could be him but there where no details to confirm it and there seem to be a lot of Frasers haha.
19 October 1945 - Belfast Telegraph
The family of the late Walter G Fraser desire to thank etc.....
Address is 14 Ravenscroft Street
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I have registered for scotlands people but for alot of the info i put in it comes up with no results but i will certainly keep checking it.
Thanks so much Elwyn!
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saw this on findagrave also and assumed it could be him but there where no details to confirm it and there seem to be a lot of Frasers haha.
19 October 1945 - Belfast Telegraph
The family of the late Walter G Fraser desire to thank etc.....
Address is 14 Ravenscroft Street
Occupants of grave I3 61, City Cemetery
Walter Fraser died 12th October 1945
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=I3&GraveNumber=61&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery
KG
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Kiltaglassan, thanks so much for the list! The date of death for Ellen is the same that i have so this is definitely them. I am assuming the other 3 named are their children but i haven't found records of them so i will try and look for them next!
Everyone is being so very helpful! Thank you so much!
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From CWGC
Private Thomas Fraser, Service Number 16844
9th Bn, Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Died 25 September 1915
Commemorated at The Loos Memorial, panel 57 to 59.
25th Sep 1915 was the first day of the battle of Loos, sometimes referred to as the Scottish Somme. There are three Thomas Frasers killed the same day.
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From http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
Residents of a house 6 in Keatley Street (Pottinger, Down)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Keatley_Street/1262498/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003996120/
KG
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...... John Frizzell Fraser 21.11.1907 & John Frazer 26.5.1900.
Death of John 1900
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05763/4628648.pdf
Death of John Frizzell 1907
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05516/4546096.pdf
KG
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Thank you so much Kiltaglassan, i will try and find their births in the registers. All the help is much appreciated! At least now i have some definite answers. Didn't realise how hard it would be to find scottish information as the rest for my english relatives i have found quite easily and been able to match up. My Scottish and Irish ancestry has definitely been the hardest so far haha
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I have registered for scotlands people but for alot of the info i put in it comes up with no results but i will certainly keep checking it.
Thanks so much Elwyn!
Well, this is the marriage Neale recommended you download and look at fully. It should have way more information on it than a paltry English one! Like Mothers!
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&dl_cat=statutory&dl_rec=statutory-marriages&surname=Fraser&surname_so=exact&forename_so=starts&spsurname=Hamilton&spsurname_so=exact&spforename_so=exact&from_year=1864&to_year=1864&record_type=stat_marriages
FRASER
WILLIAM
HAMILTON
MARY
1864
644/9 71
Tradeston
Buy credits
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Family in 1911 with Walter’s son by his previous marriage:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Montrose_Street/222383/
I would take the total number of children (7 born and 7 alive) with a pinch of salt. There’s no mention of any dead children whereas we know there were several. I looked for births 1901 - 1911:
Henry was born 27.9.1902
Annie 10.10.1904
John 15.10.1906
Thomas 22.2.1909
I don’t see a Norman but perhaps that’s Thomas. Possibly he was Thomas Norman. Check the birth cert and see. I didn't see any further children after 1911.
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William Fraser (Junior) SCOTLAND
Hannah, The 1841 census was taken on Sunday 6 June. Here the age given for William, 16 months, is unusually specific for this census where ages are often vague due to rounding down. The absence of the father is not really anything to be concerned about. On a Sunday in summer, he may well have been either away for work, or at the pub.
The family in 1851 census is at 17 Malta St, Gorbals Lanarkshire:
• William Frazer – head – 38 yrs – Mason – born Dundee, ANS
• Janet Frazer – wife – 41 yrs – born Glenluce, WIG
• Jessie Frazer – daughter – 13 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• William Frazer – son – 11 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• Alexander Frazer – son – 9 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• Archibald Frazer – son – 7 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• Isabella Frazer – daughter 5 – born Dundonald, AYR
It would appear that the daughter Helen (aged 5 in 1841 census, has either died by 1851, or has left home.)
Below are the birth/ baptism records for the children that I could find on SP.
Nothing found for Alexander. :'(
EDIT Yes i did find Alexander 1842 PortPatrick.
here https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=%28B%20OR%20C%20OR%20S%29&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_births&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-births-baptisms&surname=Frazer&surname_so=fuzzy&forename=Alexander&forename_so=fuzzy&from_year=1840&to_year=1843&parent_names=William&parent_names_so=exact&parent_name_two_so=exact&county=WIGTOWN&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
Jessie has a second name “Logan”. This is worth keeping in mind as it could be a surname from a previous generation; could be a grandmother- either mother of the father, or mother of the mother. Same thing for Alexander who has a second name “Kirkl....”?
Just a hint when searching on SP to use the search option “fuzzy matching” or “wild card” or name variants to pick up on different spellings
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William Fraser (senior) SCOTLAND
To find the parents names for William Fraser (senior) and the parents for his wife Janet McDowall, you need to find their death certificates. If they died in Scotland after 1855, the record will give you very useful information about their parents.
Do you have them in the census in 1861, 1871? When is the last time you find them in the census, and where are they?
This a possible death for Janet (McDowall) Fraser. The age would certainly fit. But check it fits with when she was last seen in the census before purchasing the record.
MCDOWALL JANET 67
1874 646/3 598 Partick
Mothers Maiden name - BARFOOT
There are about 4 possible deaths for William – 1866 Tradeston is perhaps the most likely, because Tradeston is where his son was married in 1864. However before taking a punt, find which looks like the best fit from the census records you have.
When you have these records, post ALL the information here, and let’s see what else we can find.
Cheers, Neale
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It is possible that this is the birth record for Janet McDowall. Check that these are her parents from the death certificate.
MCDOWALL JANET ADAIR (FR205) F
14/07/1807 894/ 10 196 Old Luce or Glenluce
Parents - ARCHIBALD MCDOWALL/ELIZABETH BROADFOOT FR205
Janet’s siblings: Andrew 1804 Glenluce, John 1805 Glenluce, Robert 1817 Inch.
The marriage of her parents:
MCDOWALL ARCHIBALD ELIZABETH BROADFOOT/FR363 (FR363)
22/03/1803 894/ 20 91 Old Luce or Glenluce
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Thomas 22.2.1909
I don’t see a Norman but perhaps that’s Thomas. Possibly he was Thomas Norman. Check the birth cert and see. I didn't see any further children after 1911.
Here's Norman's birth record - born 22nd February 1909
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01627/1651485.pdf
From Belfast Telegraph 8th May 1923
FRASER – May 7, 1923, at her residence, 92 Montrose Street, Ellen Mary, the dearly-beloved wife of Walter G. Fraser, and eldest daughter of the late Alexander Frizzell, Portstewart. Her remains will be removed for interment in the City Cemetery on to-morrow (Wednesday), at 2-30 p.m. Friends will please accept this (the only) intimation.
Inserted by her sorrowing Husband and Family.
D/1923/58/1007/35/315 Ellen Fraser 7th May 1923 51 Female Belfast
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
KG
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Thanks everyone for the information! i have spent last night and this morning researching to try and confirm the information given so far. I can confirm that it all matches up so far!
William Fraser (senior) SCOTLAND
To find the parents names for William Fraser (senior) and the parents for his wife Janet McDowall, you need to find their death certificates. If they died in Scotland after 1855, the record will give you very useful information about their parents.
Do you have them in the census in 1861, 1871? When is the last time you find them in the census, and where are they?
This a possible death for Janet (McDowall) Fraser. The age would certainly fit. But check it fits with when she was last seen in the census before purchasing the record.
MCDOWALL JANET 67
1874 646/3 598 Partick
Mothers Maiden name - BARFOOT
There are about 4 possible deaths for William – 1866 Tradeston is perhaps the most likely, because Tradeston is where his son was married in 1864. However before taking a punt, find which looks like the best fit from the census records you have.
When you have these records, post ALL the information here, and let’s see what else we can find.
Cheers, Neale
I do have Janet in the 1871 census living with her daughter Isabella living in Glenluce and then i have nothing after that. The death record in 1874 is hers. I was the able to check for a birth record which confirms her parents were Archibald McDowall and Elizabeth Broadfoot.
I didn't realise to use the fuzzy match option on SP so this has been super helpful!
William Fraser (Junior) SCOTLAND
Hannah, The 1841 census was taken on Sunday 6 June. Here the age given for William, 16 months, is unusually specific for this census where ages are often vague due to rounding down. The absence of the father is not really anything to be concerned about. On a Sunday in summer, he may well have been either away for work, or at the pub.
The family in 1851 census is at 17 Malta St, Gorbals Lanarkshire:
• William Frazer – head – 38 yrs – Mason – born Dundee, ANS
• Janet Frazer – wife – 41 yrs – born Glenluce, WIG
• Jessie Frazer – daughter – 13 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• William Frazer – son – 11 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• Alexander Frazer – son – 9 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• Archibald Frazer – son – 7 yrs – born Portpatrick, WIG
• Isabella Frazer – daughter 5 – born Dundonald, AYR
It would appear that the daughter Helen (aged 5 in 1841 census, has either died by 1851, or has left home.)
Below are the birth/ baptism records for the children that I could find on SP.
Nothing found for Alexander. :'(
EDIT Yes i did find Alexander 1842 PortPatrick.
here https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=%28B%20OR%20C%20OR%20S%29&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_births&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-births-baptisms&surname=Frazer&surname_so=fuzzy&forename=Alexander&forename_so=fuzzy&from_year=1840&to_year=1843&parent_names=William&parent_names_so=exact&parent_name_two_so=exact&county=WIGTOWN&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
Jessie has a second name “Logan”. This is worth keeping in mind as it could be a surname from a previous generation; could be a grandmother- either mother of the father, or mother of the mother. Same thing for Alexander who has a second name “Kirkl....”?
Just a hint when searching on SP to use the search option “fuzzy matching” or “wild card” or name variants to pick up on different spellings
I have been unable to find Helen Fraser in any other records so i am now going to try and find a death record for her.
Thanks everyone for the info so far, this helps me try and find the right ones so thank you all!
I did find a possible father for William Fraser (1815-1866). He was Alexander Fraser and his wife was Helen Kirkland. I feel this must be correct as William named his son Alexander Kirkland Fraser! I also found a marriage transcript from the parish register for Alexr Frazer and Helen Kirk in 1811 in Dundee so i am hoping this will be the correct parents for William but will know for sure when i can find his birth record with his parents name on.
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I did find a possible father for William Fraser (1815-1866). He was Alexander Fraser and his wife was Helen Kirkland. I feel this must be correct as William named his son Alexander Kirkland Fraser! I also found a marriage transcript from the parish register for Alexr Frazer and Helen Kirk in 1811 in Dundee so i am hoping this will be the correct parents for William but will know for sure when i can find his birth record with his parents name on.
It sounds like you are on the right track. A birth / baptism record for William may not be found - perhaps lost, or never made. You will know for sure about his parents from his death record- do you have it?
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So after a few hours of research i finally confirmed William's death record which was in Tradeston in November 1866. His parents listed as Alexander Fraser and Helen Fraser nee Kirkland. Wahoo! Feel like i am getting somewhere now. So the marriage transcript i found must be the correct one but i can only find the names and the date, i can't find a digital copy of it anywhere. Going to try and find their death transcripts as hopefully their parents names will be on there and i can go from there as i do not yet know Alexander or Helen's birth dates.
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You can purchase a digital copy of the 1811 Alex Frazer - Helen Kirk marriage from Scotlands People.
Unless they died after 1855 when registration commenced in Scotland, you will not get much from any burial record, except perhaps their approx. age and a parish name. Very often however, burial records were not made.
From the date of the marriage you can speculate that they were born about 1775 - 1790. You should see if you can find them in the 1841 or 1851 census.
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I couldn't find the digital copy on Scotlands People, kept saying not found even with the fuzzy matching and wild card so don't know if i am doing something wrong but i did get other records from there.
I haven't found them as of yet in the 1841 or 1851 census :(
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Link to marriage
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=M&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_marriages&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-banns-marriages&surname=Kirk&surname_so=exact&forename=Helen&forename_so=starts&spouse_name_so=exact&from_year=1811&to_year=1811&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
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Death- burial for Helen Kirkland in 1836, age 48.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=D&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_deaths&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-deaths-burials&surname=Kirk%2A&surname_so=wild&forename=Helen&forename_so=starts&parent_names_so=starts&from_year=1836&to_year=1836&county=ANGUS&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
This might be her birth. No way to be sure.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=%28B%20OR%20C%20OR%20S%29&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_births&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-births-baptisms&surname=Kirk%2A&surname_so=wild&forename=Helen&forename_so=starts&from_year=1787&to_year=1787&parent_names_so=exact&parent_name_two_so=exact&county=ANGUS&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
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I don't know how you found them but thanks so much! That's a huge help for me cause i was coming up blank, no idea what i'm doing wrong but sometimes SP just doesn't like me!
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Link to marriage
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=M&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_marriages&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-banns-marriages&surname=Kirk&surname_so=exact&forename=Helen&forename_so=starts&spouse_name_so=exact&from_year=1811&to_year=1811&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
Just a gentle reminder to use RootsChat's URL shrinker when posting a long link.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/
KG
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What is the occupation/ profession given for Alexander Frazer on his marriage and on his son’s death?
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Profession is down as stone mason but it also says journeyman
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Profession is down as stone mason but it also says journeyman
Journeyman isn't an occupation as such.
It means that he had completed his apprenticeship and was a qualified stone mason, but was employed. Originally journeymen were employed by the day, and the word has nothing to do with travelling, but is from the French journée, meaning a day's duration.
Once a man had served as a journeyman and gained enough experience, he could go on to become a master, train apprentices and employ journeymen.
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I was thinking Alexander might well be a mason, like his son. Masonry was a highly skilled trade, and in my experience was often passed through the family (sons) for a number of generations.
I think this is probably your Alexander in the 1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14107cf4040b9d6ef69e28/alexander-fraser-1841-angus-forfarshire-dundee-1791-?locale=en
1841 census: Georges Place, Union Street, Dundee
• Alexander Fraser, M. age 50; Mason, born outside Angus
• Isabella Fraser, F. age 20, Born Angus
• Helen Fraser, F. age 15, Powerloom weaver (Linen); Born Angus
These are possibly daughters of Alexander. Helen and Isabella are family names.
As the ages were rounded down to the nearest 5, Alexander’s real age might between 50-54. This would put his date of birth somewhere close to his deceased wife Helen Kirkland – about 1788. It also puts his birth in another county. Does it say on his marriage record of 1811 what town or Parish he was from?
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Moving on to the 1851 Census we find Alexander living with his daughter Helen/ Ellen in Glasgow. https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1500d6f4040b9d6e0aaf05/alexander-fraser-1851-lanarkshire-glasgow-1788-?locale=en
1851 census: 78 McAlpine St, Glasgow
• Robert McIntosh, head, 23 Blacksmith, born Bernethy, PER
• Ellen McIntosh, wife, 24, born Dundee
• Alexander Fraser, father-in-law, 63, Mason, born Nairn
This is the marriage of Helen/ Ellen to Robert McIntosh, which confirms we are on the correct trail.
MCINTOSH ROBERT HELEN FRAZER
10/08/1849 282/ 230 287 Dundee
Here is a possible birth for Alexander. This is only speculation and you need more confirmation.
FRASER ALEXANDER M 21/04/1789 123/ 30 154 Nairn
Parents - ALEXR. FRASER/JANE FRASER
Did Alexander die between 1851 and 1855 or was he still alive after 1855 and can we find a death certificate for him??
I did not find a burial record for him 1851-1855, but that does not confirm anything really.
Can you find him in the 1861 census? He does not seem to be in Dundee. Is this him in Lanarkshire in 1861 – can you find a transcript or download it from SP. If it is our man, he seems to be there still in 1871. What does the record for 1871 give?
FRASER ALEXANDER 1861 census M 72 648/ 14/ 2 Lanark Lanark
FRASER ALEXANDER 1871 census M 83 648/ 10/ 8 Lanark Lanark
There are a couple of possible deaths depending on what you find in census records. I think the 1871 death in Lanark looks promising.
FRASER ALEXANDER 85 -----
1871 648/ 140 Lanark
OR
FRASER ALEXANDER 76 -----
1863 282/1 579 Dundee First District
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Abernethy!
Skoosh.
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FRASER ALEXANDER 1861 census M 72 648/ 14/ 2 Lanark Lanark
FRASER ALEXANDER 1871 census M 83 648/ 10/ 8 Lanark Lanark
This one is a gardener in 1861, and a retired gardener in 1871, born in East Lothian, though a look at the original would be necessary to decipher where. In 1861 he is listed as married, though he's not with his wife and/or family, and in 1871 he's a widower. Can't find him in 1851, but he might be the one who was a farmer at Mousebank, parish of Lanark, in 1841.
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Does it say on his marriage record of 1811 what town or Parish he was from?
I can't find any mention of which town or parish he was from on his marriage record but then it is quite difficult to read. I will post a copy of it. The marriage took place in Dundee.
I have been unable to find any death record for him so can't say if this is him on any of the census records. I am also struggling to find any other children Alexander and Helen had.
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It does say - it says "both in this P" - P being short for Parish. But that is only where he was living when he married. Only in 1855 marriage certificates do you get any indication of a couple's parishes of birth.
It also says "in L Militia" - not sure which Local Militia this would be, but it does hint at the possibility of finding him in militia records, if they have survived.
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So does that mean they are both from that parish? I just assumed it was customary saying they wer both married in this parish. As i say i am still very new to this and trying to understand records.
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So does that mean they are both from that parish? I just assumed it was customary saying they wer both married in this parish. As i say i am still very new to this and trying to understand records.
Apologies - I amended my post to say no to that.
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Ahh ok haha! I did wonder what Militia was referring to and have been trying to find out more but no luck so far.
I do think i may have found a birth entry for him which lists his mother as Elspat Holm and father as Alexander Fraser in Resolis, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland. No way to confrm this yet but i hsve made a note so i can come back to it if i need to.
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I do think i may have found a birth entry for him which lists his mother as Elspat Holm and father as Alexander Fraser in Resolis, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland.
What makes you think that this could be his baptism? The 1851 census says he was born in Nairn, not in Ross and Cromarty.
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I do think i may have found a birth entry for him which lists his mother as Elspat Holm and father as Alexander Fraser in Resolis, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland.
What makes you think that this could be his baptism? The 1851 census says he was born in Nairn, not in Ross and Cromarty.
I'm just making notes on any that i find around the dates of 1785 so that if i do confirm it i don't have to search it out again. I don't want to rely on just census records. I do know that he was dead by 1866 so he died sometime between 1836 (after his wife died) and 1866 when his son died so i don't believe he will be on any census records after at least 1861.
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Lanarkshire Militia?
Skoosh.
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Lanarkshire Militia?
Perhaps.
But he was living in Dundee, so I'd have thought it would be difficult for him to serve in the Lanarkshire Militia, and the clerk would have written it out in full if he had been doing so.
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What lovely writing on the marriage record. If only all parish records were that easy to read! Something about the light & graceful style of the calligraphy makes me wonder if it was written by a woman – perhaps the minister’s wife did his clerical work. ;)
Anyway, the marriage record confirms that the birth for Helen Kirkland that I gave you in “post 28” was correct.
The family of William Kirkland and Jean Smith:
• David Kirkland b. 11/05/1777 Dundee
• William Kirkland b. 25/10/1778 Dundee
• Thomas Kirkland b. 02/04/1780 Dundee
• Robert Kirkland b. 21/09/1783 Dundee
• Helen Kirkland b. 27/03/1785 Dundee; d. 03/04/1787 Dundee
• Helen Kirkland b. 10/07/1787 Dundee; d. 04/02/1836 Dundee
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I don't want to rely on just census records. I do know that he was dead by 1866 so he died sometime between 1836 (after his wife died) and 1866 when his son died so i don't believe he will be on any census records after at least 1861.
What a shame you didn’t post this information before now; it would have saved me quite a lot of time.
If you don’t give all the information that you have available, those who are trying to help you are working in the dark, wasting their time, and in the long run are restricted in the assistance they can give.
It is important to rely on census records for information and leads. From the 1841 and 1851 census information that I have posted, you now know :
• Alexander was born about 1788 in Nairn
• He was still alive and working as a mason in 1851
• The names and approx. date of birth of 2 daughters, and the marriage information for the younger.
I strongly recommend that you search the 1861 census thoroughly for Alexander to see if you can reduce even more, the search parameters for his death.
In “reply 34” I have given you the most likely birth record I could find for him, based on information from the 1851 census. It is only a possibility; and it is quite likely that there is no record of his birth.
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From the death records on SP there is another son (apart from your William) from the Alex Frazer – Helen Kirkland marriage.
He is: Alexander Fraser - died 1863 in Clyde age 52. So he was born about 1811-12 and likely the eldest son in the family.
From his death record you might be able to get more information about the death of his father, or you might find him in the 1861 census.
In the 1841 census he is working as a mason in Cairnryan Village, Inch, Wigtownshire.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a158ea4f4040b9d6eaac171/alexander-fraser-1841-wigtownshire-inch-1816-?locale=en
In the 1851 census you will find him in Carrick Street, Glasgow, working as a mason, living with his wife and family.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1500d9f4040b9d6e0ab49c/alexander-fraser-1851-lanarkshire-glasgow-1812-?locale=en
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I had not previously known he was deceased by 1866 until i posted about it today. William's death record was hard for me to read (i have poor sight) for some parts of it but i had a lovely lady decipher it for me and let me know as at the time i could only make out the profession on the register. I would have passed this information on before hand otherwise.
Thank you so much for the information on Helen Kirkland's family i will certainly follow this up. I will be sure to also check the 1861 census to see if i can track down Alexander. I will look to get the birth record for him from SP also.
I did not know he had another son so that is a huge help! I will follow up on him and see what i can come up with.