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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: nicdigby on Wednesday 04 November 20 20:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am helping my 85 year old cousin find out more about the info he has found on his newly-acquired birth certificate and he would like some help from you knowledgable people about the location of his birth as his certificate does not line up with where he was told he was born.
He was told he was born in West Ham hospital, London in the summer of 1935.
His birth cert states as location: 202 St Mary’s road and then the letters UA or VA.
The birth was registered in West Ham central.
I have googled without success and used google maps too. There is a suggestion of Plaistow being the location of st Mary’s road but his mother never lived in Plaistow or anywhere particularly close to it.
The locations that would make sense are:
1) his Mother was apparently living with her sister at time of birth in Kingston on Thames.
2) the father was based in Hornchurch, Essex at the time.
3) The birth was registered in West Ham central. The fact that the birth cert just states the road name would indicate perhaps that it’s a road local to there? But I can’t find one.
4) The rest of the family were based in Pimlico until the year before his birth, and then relocated to Wandsworth SW18 but it seems she was the black sheep of the family for being pregnant to a man married to someone else so it may be that she was not welcome there.
I can see no members of the family who lived outside of London at that time so doubtful that she was shipped off to the Home Counties to have the baby , and surely the birth cert would have given an area or town name if that was the case?
Any help with regards to the location would be much appreciated.
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St Mary's Road Plaistow is very close to West Ham - not far away from West Ham park.
West Ham Hospital may now be the Newham Hospital, and that's just over a mile away.
Edited: no, Newham Hospital was opened in 1963, so not that one. What about St Mary's Hospital Plaistow,
"This hospital was founded in 1888 as a Day Nursery by Rev. T. Given-Wilson, (d. 1916), Vicar of Plaistow, who presented a site in 1892. A Day Nursery, with ward for child in-patients was erected at the expense of Rev. Henry Blisset and opened in 1893 . In 1895 the name was changed to St. Mary's Day Nursery and Hospital for Sick Children. This changed again in 1905 when the day nursery was discontinued and it became known as St. Mary's Hospital for Women and Children, Plaistow. Joseph, Lord Lister, served as president of the Charity from 1899 to his death in 1912. A new Hospital intended to provide 66 beds was begun in 1909 and completed in 1911, although only 38 beds were provided. A nurses' home was begun in 1922, by which time 58 in patient beds were provided, whilst the first section of the Out-Patients department was opened in 1928. The hospital was incorporated into the National Health Service in 1948 transferring to the control of the Regional Hospitals Board. In 1974 the Hospital, which had by now had 100 beds, became part of Newham Health District under the City and East London Area Health Authority (Teaching). The hospital closed in 1983 under the then management of Newham Health Authority and services transferred to the newly opened Newham General Hospital"
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St Mary's Road Plaistow is very close to West Ham - not far away from West Ham park.
West Ham Hospital may now be the Newham Hospital, and that's just over a mile away.
Thank you. I see why you mean, it’s only a mile from st Mary’s road Plaistow to West Ham.
He was told he was born in West Ham hospital and not Plaistow though.
Can anyone find out whatmbuikding was at 202 st Mary’s road Plaistow? Was there a maternity hospital or cottage hospital. Google is not revealing much.
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Plaistow maternity hospital was apparently on Howard’s and Chesterton roads, not st Mary’s road.
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St Mary's was Upper Road, Plaistow. That's just half a mile away from St Mary's Road
Can't see anything for 202 St Mary's Road - but googling!
I think West Ham is the larger area, not surprising that Plaistow wouldn't be mentioned, in my view
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This is likely to have been extensively bombed - not much there now at number 202.
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Have found a previous rootschat thread which states that the OP’s location of birth was “26 Howard’s road” which she states was Plaistow maternity hsiotial.
So it’s not that.
What was at 202 st Mary’s road?
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St Mary's was Upper Road, Plaistow. That's just half a mile away from St Mary's Road
Can't see anything for 202 St Mary's Road - but googling!
I think West Ham is the larger area, not surprising that Plaistow wouldn't be mentioned, in my view
Thank you for googling. I’m not getting very far.
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Oh! Google.....
London gazette 1932. Hm land registry “ state guaranteed titles to land”
The following land is about to be registered.....freehold ...
202 st Mary’s road , Upton Park, Essex, by caroline Millard of that address.
No idea what this means, does it suggest it’s a private house? The mother was unmarried so perhaps she had to find lodgings and had the baby there and told the son it was West Ham hospital to hide his illegitimacy (which he only found out about 50 years later)
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Here is St Mary’s Road:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.820536127669868&lat=51.53231&lon=0.02824&layers=168&right=BingHyb
You can zoom in and out and select different maps, though this one is one of the clearest despite not being in your 1930s time frame.
If 202 was just a normal house it is possible that the mother was staying with relatives or friends when she gave birth.
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Here is St Mary’s Road:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.820536127669868&lat=51.53231&lon=0.02824&layers=168&right=BingHyb
You can zoom in and out and select different maps, though this one is one of the clearest despite not being in your 1930s time frame.
If 202 was just a normal house it is possible that the mother was staying with relatives or friends when she gave birth.
Thanks for this. He will like the old map, so that’s great, cheers.
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If you have FindMyPast you can search for St Mary's Road, West Ham C B , Essex in the 1939 Register.
The closest is 201 or 203 but you can look at the map from 1939 as well as a recent map.
The full address is St Mary's Road, Upton Park, Newham, West Ham C B , Essex, England
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I don’t think this link will take you to the right area, but if you enter Plaistow into the search box and locate St Mary’s Road, select the 1939 map. It is not too different from the earlier map. There don’t seem to be any obvious institutions and no numbering so it doesn’t really help:
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/540500/182500/12/101204
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If you have FindMyPast you can search for St Mary's Road, West Ham C B , Essex in the 1939 Register.
The closest is 201 or 203 but you can look at the map from 1939 as well as a recent map.
The full address is St Mary's Road, Upton Park, Newham, West Ham C B , Essex, England
Thank you. I can’t work out how to narrow it down from 16000 results. I’ve put in the house number and exact road name but can’t work out how to narrow or down to to sort them in house number order?
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Choose search for address then put St Mary's Road and West Ham CB
2 results, it's the first one, go right to the end.
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Choose search for address then put St Mary's Road and West Ham CB
2 results, it's the first one, go right to the end.
Sorry, I’m not very good with FindMyPast yet. How do I search for address? I am clicking search but it brings up the general box with boxes for names etc. I’ve tried the horizontal stripes top right ‘search” but it doesn’t have a search an address section. Can you explain slowly please? (Apologies)
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I click search at the top of the page then choose 1939 Register
At the top of the 1939 Register page it says search for person/address
click address then fill in street and borough
ADDED
When you get the map up, an icon bottom left shows different years
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related thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839759.msg7056573
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I click search at the top of the page then choose 1939 Register
At the top of the 1939 Register page it says search for person/address
click address then fill in street and borough
ADDED
When you get the map up, an icon bottom left shows different years
Thank you, I’ve done it. Like you say, there is not a number 202 on there though.
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I haven’t searched much on the 1939 register so this suggestion may be way off, but if you have found a 201 and 203, might 202 be listed elsewhere? Have you looked for a 200 and 204 - even numbers?
What sort of households were 201 and 203, as 202 is likely to be similar in size.
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I haven’t searched much on the 1939 register so this suggestion may be way off, but if you have found a 201 and 203, might 202 be listed elsewhere? Have you looked for a 200 and 204 - even numbers?
Yes, can’t find 200, 202 or 204
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Um, that seems odd. I wonder if it relates to your find at reply #8 mentioning freehold land at no 202 in 1932? No mention of house. (Unlessthat was the terminology used)
It makes me wonder why there are no even house numbers along that stretch of the road.
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I haven’t searched much on the 1939 register so this suggestion may be way off, but if you have found a 201 and 203, might 202 be listed elsewhere? Have you looked for a 200 and 204 - even numbers?
What sort of households were 201 and 203, as 202 is likely to be similar in size.
I noticed there are only odd numbers listed for St. Mary's Road on that Enumeration District, I scrolled through all of the pages. The evens must be on another Enumeration District, I am just having a look now on Ancestry (I don't know how to change the district on FindMyPast ::))
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London gazette 1932. Hm land registry “ state guaranteed titles to land”
The following land is about to be registered.....freehold ...
202 st Mary’s road , Upton Park, Essex, by caroline Millard of that address.
No idea what this means, does it suggest it’s a private house?
"What is a freehold? The freeholder of a property owns it outright, including the land it's built on."
With the failed attempt on the address, have you found Caroline Millard in 1939?
It doesn't seem to be a common combined name & may hold a clue?
There's always the possibility '202' was a misprint?
Annie
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201/203 and other odd numbers for St. Mary's Road are on West Ham Enumeration District CBNT. District CBNS has some even numbers for St. Mary's Road low 30's to 148 but nothing higher. Maybe the even 200's (probably on the other side of the road) were bombed and destroyed ???
ADDED: Just realised they would not have been bombed pre 1939 ::) maybe pulled down.
Ancestry allows you to change the district from a drop down menu at the top of each page of the Register.
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I think Caroline Baker was married to Edward T Millard 1906 Marylebone, if I have the right person i.e. not sure if there's any clue in there?
Annie
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Caroline Millard may be a clue. Could she be a Matron, Owner, Proprietor of the St. Mary's Road building.
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Good thinking about the enumerations districts Jool. Could the higher numbers be in yet snouther district.
Hi Annie. :) Yes, Caroline Millard’s occupation might give a clue (even if she was not living at that address). Though many years earlier, has anyone found her in the 1911 census or elsewhere? Maybe she is listed as a “midwife”.
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District CBNS has some even numbers for St. Mary's Road low 30's to 148 but nothing higher.
I hope this link to Old Maps works. If you don't see a map click the minus button a few times, top left of the map. The map will appear
As far as I can see, 148 was the highest even number in St Mary's Road Plaistow.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/540791/183511/13/101329
Edit see jonw's posting, which indicates I was wrong about the numbering!
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PO London Directory 1940
The number 202 is listed in St. Mary's Road
Horace Harding, tile kerb maker
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Looking at the cutting jon has supplied, number 202 is after the junction with Rochester Road, so must be about here https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/541067/183656/12/101068
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Thank you all for your continued help with this, I have just logged on this morning.
So we have:
1932: caroline Millard applied for freehold of 202
1936: my cousin’s birth was registered and the address given as his birth in summer of 1935 was 202
1939: no mention of number 202 in that road
1940: a tiler lives at 202.
I’m not sure where to go from here. Did his mother make up an address that did not exist as his birth place perhaps?
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202 must have been where this new build is located on the corner of Rochester Avenue:
https://tinyurl.com/y4hyn7jh
There was something there in 1939: https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194803#zoom=7&lat=9034&lon=8877&layers=BT
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202 must have been where this new build is located on the corner of Rochester Avenue:
https://tinyurl.com/y4hyn7jh
There was something there in 1939: https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194803#zoom=7&lat=9034&lon=8877&layers=BT
I can’t make out the numbers on the map : which building is 202, and how have you worked this out pls?
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202 must have been where this new build is located on the corner of Rochester Avenue:
https://tinyurl.com/y4hyn7jh
There was something there in 1939: https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194803#zoom=7&lat=9034&lon=8877&layers=BT
I thought it might be on the other side of the road (see my previous reply) as that is where the even numbers were.
Here's number 162, which precedes number 202 in the snip jon provided
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/540870/183525/13/101329
In any event, we are both looking at the same end of St Mary's Road :)
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I think this single dwelling house could well have been number 202.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/541070/183644/12/101068
It seems to be the next house along after number 162.
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Um, that seems odd. I wonder if it relates to your find at reply #8 mentioning freehold land at no 202 in 1932? No mention of house. (Unlessthat was the terminology used)
It makes me wonder why there are no even house numbers along that stretch of the road.
It doesn't mention freehold land in relation to number 202.
Here's a link to the actual page so you can check the wording https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33811/page/2041
I read it that number 202 was an already existing freehold property (and I used to work at the Land Registry :) )
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It's clear that there was a residential property at 202.
As to who was there in the mid-1930's, the electoral registers should hold the answer. They are at Newham https://www.newham.gov.uk/libraries-arts-culture/local-history-archives/1
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202 must have been where this new build is located on the corner of Rochester Avenue:
https://tinyurl.com/y4hyn7jh
There was something there in 1939: https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194803#zoom=7&lat=9034&lon=8877&layers=BT
sorry to be dense, but how do you which way the numbers run on that road? I cannot see any numbers on the map at all.
I thought it might be on the other side of the road (see my previous reply) as that is where the even numbers were.
Here's number 162, which precedes number 202 in the snip jon provided
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/540870/183525/13/101329
In any event, we are both looking at the same end of St Mary's Road :)
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Um, that seems odd. I wonder if it relates to your find at reply #8 mentioning freehold land at no 202 in 1932? No mention of house. (Unlessthat was the terminology used)
It makes me wonder why there are no even house numbers along that stretch of the road.
It doesn't mention freehold land in relation to number 202.
Here's a link to the actual page so you can check the wording https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33811/page/2041
I read it that number 202 was an already existing freehold property (and I used to work at the Land Registry :) )
thank you
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I'm looking at the map links but it says I have to subscribe to get close up views.
I can't see any house numbers - am I looking at the Rochester Road end of St Mary's Rd? In which case, how do you know this please? Are there numbers on the maps cos I cant see any (dense!).
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I'm looking at the map links but it says I have to subscribe to get close up views.
I can't see any house numbers - am I looking at the Rochester Road end of St Mary's Rd? In which case, how do you know this please? Are there numbers on the maps cos I cant see any (dense!).
Please re-read reply #20 :)
If you don't see a map click the minus button a few times, top left of the map. The map will appear
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I can see the map but I can't see any house numbers to know what end of the road to look at - but you guys seem to know. Am I missing the obvious house numbers?
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What we have done is to look at the map in conjunction with the snip provided earlier by Jon in reply #29
If you do this, and look at the street names, then it follows that number 202 must have been between the junctions with Rochester Avenue and Queen's Road (reply #30)
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What we have done is to look at the map in conjunction with the snip provided earlier by Jon in reply #29
If you do this, and look at the street names, then it follows that number 202 must have been between the junctions with Rochester Avenue and Queen's Road (reply #30)
thank you
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We can see numbers in St Mary's Rd on this OS map from 1950
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.53333&lon=0.02956&layers=173&b=1
If we scroll along to the right, and move up, we quickly get to where no. 202 should be, but it appears to be no longer there? Under Queen's Road.
We also notice the map is a different shade, and is now dated 1959!
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Thanks jon
An earlier map, (I'm getting so lost with links that I don't know if I've already posted this :-X ) shows the whole of that corner area has gone, including the house which I believe to have been number 202
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/541066/183643/12/101204
As Shaun has already observed, it's quite clear that there was a residential property there at the relevant time.
Is Caroline Millard of any relevance? It's quite possible that she was simply the freeholder and that the house was tenanted at the time that nic's relative was born.
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There was a property there in the 30's, not sure if it was a different kind of property on an earlier map :-\
It's listed in the 1940 directory, but not in the few years preceding, it's fairly elusive. Horace Harding was living nearby on the 1939 Register.
Yes, perhaps the electoral registers might help.
Jon
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East London Observer September 1907.
Block of freehold dwelling-houses being offered for sale.
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Well spotted!
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Hi Annie. :) Yes, Caroline Millard’s occupation might give a clue (even if she was not living at that address). Though many years earlier, has anyone found her in the 1911 census or elsewhere? Maybe she is listed as a “midwife”.
Hi Ruskie ;),
I did find her in 1911, wasn't sure if I could post, she had no occ. & hubby was a Caffcutter & in 1939 she was a housewife, he was a Horse Keeper so no clues there although I'd wondered if they were possibly related?
Nic...Could you ask your cousin if his mother had an occ. on his BC?
Annie
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Hi Annie. :) Yes, Caroline Millard’s occupation might give a clue (even if she was not living at that address). Though many years earlier, has anyone found her in the 1911 census or elsewhere? Maybe she is listed as a “midwife”.
Hi Ruskie ;),
I did find her in 1911, wasn't sure if I could post, she had no occ. & hubby was a Caffcutter & in 1939 she was a housewife, he was a Horse Keeper so no clues there although I'd wondered if they were possibly related?
But how do you know you have found the same Caroline Millard named in the notice in 1932?
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Thanks everyone for your continued help.
Caroline Millard : she is not a member of my family as far as I am aware.
The mother of My cousin was listed on his birth certificate as a dairy assistant.
His mother told him he was born in hospital and that he only weighed 2.5 pounds. She told him the hospital sent her home with him with a hot water bottle to keep him warm, but it seems he was not born in hospital at all...which begs the question as to why she said he was.
Possibilities:
He was 2.5 pounds because he was a twin. My cousin’s father had a set of twins just a couple of years before my cousin was born so twins were in his genes, it seems.
Or (given he was illegitimate and born only ten months after the birth of his father’s youngest child with his first wife) that they tried to hide the baby - they took a full year to register him. Perhaps telling him he was 2.5 pounds was part of this ruse?
But I can’t see how a single baby at 2.5 pounds - around 28/29 weeks - would have survived in what was a poor part of London; no NHS, his parents wouldn’t have been able to pay for a doctor or midwife.
The plot thickens!
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Meant to write, how did 2.5 baby survive in a poor part of London to parents who couldn’t afford a doctor, when he was born in a private dwelling and not in a Hospital. It doesn’t add up. My cousin is curious about the circumstances of his birth so thank you all for trying to help him settle a few questions this has brought up.
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But how do you know you have found the same Caroline Millard named in the notice in 1932?
Hi Jen, sorry missed your post...
From my earlier post...
Reply #25
"I think Caroline Baker was married to Edward T Millard 1906 Marylebone, if I have the right person i.e. not sure if there's any clue in there?"
Just going on that possibility i.e. the info. I posted is on the above which is still just a thought as I haven't found anyone else to fit the area around those times with those names?
Of course I could be wrong but it may help others too if they come across this thread in the future.
Annie
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Good thinking about the enumerations districts Jool. Could the higher numbers be in yet snouther district.
Hi Ruskie,
I checked 7 districts either side and couldn't find it (I had time on my hands ;D)
Maybe it is still redacted.
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Out of interest, does anyone know what the squares are on the (probable) location of No 202?
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.53406&lon=0.03225&layers=173&b=1
As they are by the Square, I wondered if they might be shop stalls of some sort.
Used to look like this before the corner was squared off:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/104194803#zoom=7&lat=9034&lon=8877&layers=BT
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Whipps Cross hospital in Leytonstone/Walthamstow was originally West Ham infirmary,not sure until when though....and there is also a St.Mary Rd in Walthamstow. (probably doesnt help but i thought i would mention it) :)
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Whipps Cross hospital in Leytonstone/Walthamstow was originally West Ham infirmary,not sure until when though....and there is also a St.Mary Rd in Walthamstow. (probably doesnt help but i thought i would mention it) :)
I have learnt that sometimes the registrars would write the address down instead of the hospital name. So if my cousin was in fact born in a hospital of some sort, we would expect 202 st Mary’s road to be the address of some sort of maternity hospital, but I’ve found nothing to suggest it was.
I’ve also checked the addresses of all the mother and baby secret clinics in east London (it’s on google) and none of them are st Mary’s road.
Thanks everyone for your continued help with this.
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The house in question was sandwiched between properties in Queen's Road and Rochester Avenue.
I've been able to find all the surrounding properties in the 1939 register, but not the one in question I'm afraid.
It is possible that it was a private maternity home. It's equally possible simply that she gave birth in a private house. She might have had a friend or acquaintance who lived there.
The only other thing I can think of, already been suggested by Shaun in reply #37 would be the relevant electoral registers, but for that you would have to go to Newham Library, which is rather impossible at the moment ::)
I have learnt that sometimes the registrars would write the address down instead of the hospital name.
That was mainly to do with births in the Workhouse
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/
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Not sure this is any help other than more confirmation the address did exist...
http://www.fadedgenes.co.uk/WilliamVINCETT.html
"Thomas VINCETT...census 1911 at 202 St Mary's Road, West Ham (Essex), occupation 1862 – 1912 Butcher, died 1916 in West Ham (Essex)...He married Hannah Margaret TURNER."
Edit to add...Others in the household who may lend a clue...
Phillis Piper 20
Leslie Aynor Bay 2 (It actually states '(Boy)'!
Mary Ann Eastwood 75
Annie
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I wonder if anything ever came of this old thread. I stumbled upon it searching for the address 202 St Mary's Road, Plaistow, as my great granduncle on my father's side has this listed as his Residence at time of marriage in 1916. He was Robert Thomas Don, marrying Nellie Ford.
The links folks here posted with maps, considering that the area no longer exists in that form (bombing?), was really interesting.
I think it was a residential house and my family were renters considering the 1907 sale; they were living elsewhere by 1939 Census.
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In fact, it was the Don family home as his sister Elizabeth Don noted the same address for her marriage in 1917 (as did her husband!)