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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: DudelsackHogg on Tuesday 20 October 20 14:04 BST (UK)
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First post here. Great website with lots of links for me to follow up. So thank you.
I seem to be from the black sheep side of the Hogg family. On one side there is the Poets, Reverends, Majors etc and on my side the poachers, alcoholics and murder suspects. Well.
I have be using Ancestry, FindMyPast and Scotland’s People to piece together my tree but I have hit a wall. I am new to this and would appreciate your help.
I came across a couple of news articles about a murder trial and I was hoping it might lead to some more information regarding my family.
1851 Trial
Articles from the:
Kelso Chronicle 13 June 1851 -page 6 and 7
Edinburgh Evening Courant 10 June 1851
Trial of Thomas Hogg for Murder.
The High Court of Justiciary, Edinburgh
Thomas Hogg - Accused
Agnes Hogg (Laidlaw) - Victim
“Thomas Hogg was placed at the bar charged with the crime, in so far as (in terms of the indictment) on the 12th day of February 1851, in or near the house called the Boat-House, in the parish and county of Roxburgh, then occupied by him, he did wickedly and feloniously attack and assault the now deceased Agnes Laidlaw or Hogg, his wife, and did with his hands, or with some kind of ligature, violently compress the throat, or did press it against some piece of furniture, or other hard substance to the prosecutor unknown, and did thus strangle and suffocate the said Agnes Laidlaw or Hogg, in consequence whereof she soon thereafter died, and was thus murdered by the said Thomas Hogg.
The prisoner pleaded not guilty; and a Jury having been empanelled, the case went to trial.”
Three day drinking binge. Agnes fracture of the larynx, suggested strangulation. Accused admits to hitting his wife on occasion.
Found not guilty.
Key names that appear in the article. Witnesses who gave evidence:
Elizabeth Hogg or Yeoman - Also referred to Betty Yeoman (Hogg) and Betsy - First cousin of the accused. Also lives adjoining the Boathouse - next door.
Betsy Legget - 12 years of age - niece of the prisoner - has lived in the house since she was 5
Grace Laidlaw - sister of the deceased. Servant at Spylaw.
John Hogg - joiner in Roxburgh - Am a relation of the accused.
I have pdf’s of both articles if anyone wants me to send them. The Kelso Chronicle is a bit more balanced and the Edinburgh Evening Courant reads like Thomas got away with murder.
My possible connection to this story.
Andrew Hogg 29.10.1776 - (unverified - not found on Scotlands people)
Ancestry gives me the following information for Andrew Hogg:
Birth date: 29.10.1776
Baptism Date: 01.12.1776
Baptism place: Associate Congregation OR Free Church Jedburgh, Roxburgh
Father: Andrew Hogg
Mother: Elspeth Thomson
FHL Film number: 559522
Reference ID: 2:18NPW7M
I cannot find him on Scotlands people. How accurate is the Ancestry information? And how can I follow this up and verify the information given.
Married:
Elisabeth Davidson 30.07.1777 (birth date assumption based on only record on Scotland’s people)
They had 3 Children:
William Hogg b 20.06.1809 d 25.02.1890 (my direct descendant)
Elisabeth Hogg b 26.11.1810
Elspeth Hogg b 18.01.1813 d 29.04.1896
The 1841 Census
House Name: Boathouse
Janet Hogg 80 Birth year 1761 Roxburghshire Sp dealer
Thomas Hogg 36 Birth year 1805 Roxburghshire Labourer
Elizabeth Hogg 30 Birth year 1811 Roxburghshire F Servant
(No relationships listed)
Title Trial papers relating to Thomas Hogg
Name Thomas Hogg
Role Accused
Designation married
Age 49
Approx Birth Year 1802
Crime Murder
Crime Location the "Boathouse", Roxburgh
Trial Date 16 April 1851
Trial Location Jedburgh
Verdict Not called
NRS Reference JC26/1851/184
Notes
Case remitted to the High Court, Edinburgh (see JC26/1851/547).
I assume the Thomas in 1841 census is the same as the accused. I have not found a marriage Thomas Hogg/Agnes Laidlaw. I could buy a copy of the trial papers and minutes but it costs £45.00. Does anyone have experience purchasing such information? Is it likely to give family details - parents of the accused etc. I am quite tempted as I am already quite invested in the story.
I would like to find out. If the Elizabeth Hogg residing at the boathouse in 1841 is the daughter (born 1810) of Andrew Hogg and Elisabeth Davidson. I have looked for marriage records for Hogg / Yeoman but can’t find anything.
Any additional information on Janet Hogg also residing at the boathouse in 1841 - possibly the grandmother of Thomas and likely to be the sister of Andrew Hogg. Also, any idea what Sp dealer is?
I also cannot find any further mention of Elizabeth Hogg (1810) - death certificate/marriage etc so any pointers would be great.
It may well not be connected at all. I am working on the assumption that the Elizabeths are the same.
And finally any additional information on Andrew Hogg - if the ancestry information is accurate and why it is not on Scotland’s People (user error)?
I’ll post updates of any progress.
Thanks for your help.
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Hi , welcome to RC :)
Thomas Hogg , 1851 & 1861 -
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=79209002
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302025
Have you looked for a death cert. for Thomas Hogg ?
Janet Hogg 80 , noted as spirit dealer on 1841 Census transcription at FreeCEN.
You would need to look at the original to verify.
ev
Added-
Betsy Legget-
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302030
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTN6-NBF ?
Elizabeth Hogg or Yeoman ?
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302029
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Thanks for the fast reply. And for the links - I haven't heard of FreeCEN, found the entry. Great resource and that answers that question.
I did find a death certificate that matches but it didn't get me much further.
District of Jedburgh in the county of Roxburgh
Thomas Hogg
29th September 1877 - age 74 years.
Name of father Thomas Hogg - Shepherd
Name of mother Margaret Hogg (Young)
Informant John Neil (difficult to read - could even be Reid ) - Nephew in law
Thomas Hogg and Margaret Young were married in Eckford 16.02.1798
On a side note - after every entry on that List of Marriages 1797 page it says "Given to the poor". Does anyone know what that means? I assume the Church suggests a donation.
Thanks again.
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Fantastic. Good work.
So it would seem that Elizabeth Hogg from the 1841 Census is not the one giving evidence at the trial.
Elizabeth Hogg/Yeoman (the spelling from the newspaper) was born around 1831.
I'm really glad I posted here.
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Andrew Hogg 29.10.1776 - (unverified - not found on Scotlands people)
Ancestry gives me the following information for Andrew Hogg:
Birth date: 29.10.1776
Baptism Date: 01.12.1776
Baptism place: Associate Congregation OR Free Church Jedburgh, Roxburgh
Father: Andrew Hogg
Mother: Elspeth Thomson
FHL Film number: 559522
Reference ID: 2:18NPW7M
I cannot find him on Scotlands people. How accurate is the Ancestry information? And how can I follow this up and verify the information given.
Never trust anything you find online, especially on Ancestry, MyHeritage and similar commercial web sites unless it is an image of an original document - and even then be wary.
I think it is an indexing omission by SP because the original is in fact there on SP. I looked for other baptisms in 1776 in the Jedburgh Associate Register, and viewed the baptism of Hellene Cook on 27 October 1776. Sure enough, Andrew's baptism is there, a few lines further down. See attachment. You owe me six credits :)
Elisabeth Davidson 30.07.1777 (birth date assumption based on only record on Scotland’s people)
Never make that assumption. It could be the right person but there could be another Elizabeth Davidson whose baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived. It looks like a reasonable working hypothesis but you need to find additional evidence to confirm it.
The 1841 Census
House Name: Boathouse
Janet Hogg 80 Birth year 1761 Roxburghshire Sp dealer
Thomas Hogg 36 Birth year 1805 Roxburghshire Labourer
Elizabeth Hogg 30 Birth year 1811 Roxburghshire F Servant
(No relationships listed)
Relationships are never listed in the 1841 census.
Also, in the 1841 census adults' ages are supposed to be rounded down to the nearest five years. So for example Janet, aged 80, could be any age from 80 to 84, and as the 1841 census was taken on 7 June, and assuming that her age is accurate, she would have been born any time between 8 June 1766 and 7 June 1771. Similarly Elizabeth Hogg, age recorded as 30, could have been born any time between 8 June 1806 and 7 June 1811, assuming that her age is accurate. The original UK census never gives a year of birth. Transcription web sites that subtract the age from the census year do you a disservice because it gives the wrong year more often than the right year.
any idea what Sp dealer is?
Spirit dealer, i.e. seller of whisky and probably gin.
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On a side note - after every entry on that List of Marriages 1797 page it says "Given to the poor". Does anyone know what that means? I assume the Church suggests a donation.
The kirk charged a fee for proclaiming a couple's banns, and the money went into the fund for looking after the poor of the parish.
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in the 1851 census, not surprisingly, Thomas Hogg, 49, widower, fishmonger, born Roxburghshire, Roxburgh, is recorded in Jedburgh Prison.
In 1861 he is a labourer, widower, aged 59, born Roxburgh, living alone in the Boathouse.
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Forfarian.
Thank you so much for looking up the baptism record. I really can't thank you enough. If I can return the favour and look something up for you I'd be more than happy to.
I certainly don't want to make assumptions, which is why this missing record was bugging me.
Thank you also for the extra information. I probably should also read the beginners board thoroughly-not just skim it.
Have a good night everyone.
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Hi
I am struggling to see any connection between your Andrew Hogg and Tommy Hogg, boatman of Roxburgh Boathouse, though the story is fascinating. Thomas Hogg died in 1866, and his parents are named as George Hogg, fisherman and Janet Hogg, née Atchiston. Just in case you do find a connection, here is Tommy, photographed by the young ladies of Sunlaws House in the 1850s, and the boathouse demolished not long after his death as the ferry boat was redundant since the coming of the railway and the footbridge attached to the railway viaduct so the people of Heiton no longer needed the services of a ferryman to get to church on Sundays.
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Yes, the more I look at the names in the article it looks less likely there is a direct connection.
How I got to this article was searching for Elisabeth Hogg (1810).
I know what happened to William (1809) and Elspeth (1813) but not Elisabeth.
Searching for her led me to the 1841 Census that has an Elizabeth Hogg living at the Boathouse. The dates roughly worked but as Forfarian pointed out the 1841 census dates are rounded down so the dates probably don’t tie in so well as I first thought.
In all likelihood she married and that is the reason I can’t find her easily. A positive, is that I can eliminate that connection, and focus elsewhere.
I think it’s a case of wanting a good story to tell, and to have a connection to it. Although, I would imagine that it was a very big story at the time, especially for my relatives living down the street and sharing the same name.
I’m really enjoying this journey. When things click together it’s great, it’s a detective mystery and really quite addictive.
Being able to put a face to this story is wonderful, thanks for posting the photographs. It really brings things to life. Tommy looks like quite a distinctive character.
I'm really impressed with the response from everyone. Thank you.
I’ll continue to piece the puzzle together.
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Elisabeth Hogg found.
She married a Henry Taylor - she appears in the 1841 Census as Betsy Taylor
Died 13.05.1872 - Age 60
Death certificate confirms parents as Andrew Hogg (Land Steward) and Elisabeth Davidson
So I can now say for certain that the Elizabeth Hogg at the Boathouse is not the daughter of Andrew.
Still looking at the Boathouse case and their trees.
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Just a note to say that I reported the missing index listing of Andrew Hogg's baptism, and Scotland's People replied to say that they agree that he is missing from the index and the omission will be corrected soon.
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Thanks for that. I hope they gave you your 6 credits back for reporting the error.
Fantastic to see the actual record.
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I have hit a wall in my family tree so I looked again at the Thomas Hogg trial to see if it helps with my family tree. It ultimately didn’t, but I did get a pretty clear picture of Thomas and the Roxburgh Hogg’s.
I thought I would share what I found to help anyone else who may be connected to this line.
To recap the names in the Kelso Chronicle Article - Trial of Thomas Hogg for Murder dated 13th June1851
Thomas Hogg, tackman of fishing at Roxburgh
Agnes Laidlaw or Hogg wife of Thomas and alleged victim
Betsy Legget a girl of 12. Was the niece of Thomas Hogg and has lived in the house since 5.
Elizabeth Yeoman or Hogg - neighbour - Betsy Hogg - ‘Thomas Hogg is a first cousin of mine’
Charlotte Lamb - servant to Thomas Landreth - knew Thomas lived a little from the boathouse. Bought whisky for her master.
Agnes Grey - neighbour
Elizebeth Heron - lived at Roxburgh Cottage
John Hogg - joiner in Roxburgh - ‘am a relation of the prisoner’
Walter Mitchel - mason at Roxburgh - was called to the boathouse by Mrs Yeoman,
John Campbell - was with Walter Mitchel and saw body lying on the floor.
Mr William Laidlaw - the schoolmaster
Grace Laidlaw - sister of the deceased and servant at Spylaw
Here is what I found out:
Agnes Laidlaw. Her parents were William Laidlaw and Helen Waldie. I think this is her in the 1841 census. Which would put her at 20-24 in 1841. So 30-34 when she died.
1841 - Agnes and Helen Laidlaw
https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=80304011
I was able to find her sister Grace Laidlaw, who was described in the article as servant at Spylaw.
1851 - Grace Laidlaw
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=79309019
Conveniently it says in the entry ‘to marry Andrew Miller’. I then looked up her death certificate to get the names of both Agnes and Grace’s parents. I don’t see any connection to William Laidlaw the schoolmaster.
Grace Laidlaw did go on and marry Andrew Millar.
1861 - Andrew Miller - Grace Miller married 18 April 1856 at Sprouston
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=79305043
Thomas Hogg, the accused, was born in Roxburgh on 10 Oct 1802. He was the son of George Hogg 17 Sep. 1758 and Janet Cranston 8 Oct. 1762. Thomas died 28 March 1866.
1841 - Thomas Hogg
https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=80305031
Janet 80 - Thomas’s mother - Spirit Dealer
Thomas 36
Elizabeth Hogg 30 - I believe this Elizabeth is actually Thomas’s sister Betty, born 11 July 1805 Roxburgh and died 29 April 1847 Roxburgh.
1861 - Thomas Hogg - widower.
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302025
Betsy Legget was the daughter of Janet Hogg 26 Aug 1798 - Thomas’s sister. Betsy was born 15 Jan 1838. It looks like Janet died in 1845 so would explain why she was living with her uncle. Janet married Robert Leggat in 1829. Betsy Leggat married John Lang 23 Dec 1859. They stayed at the boathouse.
1851 - Elizabeth Leggat
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302030
1861 - Elizabeth Lang
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302026
Elizabeth Yeoman (Hogg) - was born around 1832, the daughter of John Hogg 04 Apr 1790 and Elizabeth Hume 18 Sep 1794. She was not a ‘first cousin’ rather the ‘first cousin once removed up(m)’. Elizabeth was married first to Thomas Yeoman and later William Sawers. She died 16 Jun 1902 in Roxburgh.
1851 - Elizabeth Yeoman and Thomas
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302029
1861 - Elizabeth Yeoman and William Sawer
https://www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80302018
John Hogg, joiner ’ am a relation of the prisoner’. Was the father of Elizabeth Yeoman (Hogg) and the first cousin of Thomas Hogg. John was born 04 Apr 1790, the son of William Hogg 10 May 1750 and Agnes (?). John died 16 Feb 1875 in Roxburgh.
1841 - John Hogg
https://www.scottishindexes.com/41transcript.aspx?houseid=80305008
1861 -John Hogg
https://www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80302008
(The 1861 census also shows William Sawyers as a lodger here. Almost certainly the same William who later marries Elizabeth Yeoman.)
William Hogg, also a joiner (1750) - was John’s father and the brother of George Hogg, fisherman (1758- Thomas’s father). Their parents were Henry Hogg (abt. 1830) and Margaret.
It seems Thomas Hogg and Agnes Laidlaw were not married for very long before her death in 1851. They must have married some time between 1841 and 1851 and Agnes appears to be much younger than I thought when reading the newspaper article. If that census entry is the correct one, then she would have been only 30-34 at the time of her death. I had pictured her as much older.
I hope this helps anyone who may have a connection to the names.
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i enjoyed reading all that. Isn't Family History fascinating.
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Interesting story and fantastic research and contributions
I'm really impressed by how you lay out all the facts you know and queries then came back with a summary for each person .& Recap of the case
I hope you manage to tie up all your HOGG loose ends.
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Thanks. I have been slowly going through the Kirks Sessions hoping to find a clue to my family.
The boat house is mentioned a couple of times - the Hogg’s spirit dealing perhaps meant the boat house was a place that loosened inhibitions. I’m sure I read of boys fighting and drunkenness but I didn’t note down the entries and I can’t find them now.
I did note down the irregular marriage of Thomas and Agnes:
Roxburgh kirk session, Minutes (1843-1873), CH2/314/4
Image 23
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/virtual-volumes/volume-images?image=23&volume=CH2/314/4&volume_info=Roxburgh%20kirk%20session&volume_short_desc=Minutes%20%281843-1873%29%0D%0A&record_id=5617&rex_uid=REX00331&related_places=GAZ00961&placename=Roxburgh
21st November 1847 - Kirk Session compeared Thomas Hogg and Agnes Laidlaw for their irregular marriage at Coldstream Friday last.
So they weren’t married very long before Agnes died. Just over 3 years.
I also noted some of the other names:
Image 27 - 14th November 1848
Thomas Yeoman and Elizabeth Hogg - irregular marriage - produced a certificate of marriage dated 17th Aug 1848
Image 47 - 7th October 1855
William Sawyers and Elizabeth Hogg - anti-nuptial fornication
Image 49 - 1856
Andrew Millar - Grace Laidlaw - fornication
Image 61 - 3rd April 1859
Betty Leggat fornication with John Lang Blacksmith
As for my family, I found the irregular marriage entires of both my 5x and 6x ggf and the death certificate of Elisabeth (Betty) Davidson. The entry for Elisabeth I’d made an assumption about in my first post was wrong. She was actually born 20th October, 1782 in Kelso, the daughter of William Davidson and Elisabeth Redpath and died 27th May, 1860.
I found out she had and irregular marriage with Andrew Hogg dated Coldstream October 3rd 1808 and 8 months and 17 days later their son William was born.
This cast doubts on the Andrew (whose baptism is noted in my first post - born to Andrew and Elspeth in Jedburgh 1776) as being the father to my Andrew. The Elspeth fits - Andrew and Elizabeth were clearly following a naming pattern evidenced by them naming their daughters Elizabeth and Elspeth - but the first born is named William and I would expect it to be Andrew.
I have very little firm information on Andrew, he’s still a mystery. I have found him twice in the Kelso Kirk Sessions:
Kelso kirk session, Minutes (1800-1833), CH2/1173/19
The first - Image Number 157 - 1809
Is the irregular marriage of Andrew Hogg and Elisabeth Davidson. “having paid double fees they were declared married persons in presence of the session.”
Is that unusual to pay double?
The second is a bit more intriguing:
Image Number 159 - 1809
Andrew Hogg - where he stated the case of Anne Dickson. I do wonder why he is stating the case and how unusual this is.
“Anne Dickson a single person who being interrogated deponed that on the 16th Dec last she brought forth a child of which child she declares William Johnston Woodkeeper at Fleurs to be the father.”
Anne and the child she brought forth is also a mystery. I was hoping I could find a clue here but so far I haven’t been able to crack who she and her child are.
There is a Wiliam Hogg and Bettie Dickson ( I noted in a list of communicants an Elspeth Dickson but can't be sure it's the same person) who have two recorded children Bettie b.1743 and Alexander b.1745. I do wonder IF Bettie had an illegitimate son around 1775, and it is a concealed illegitmacy eg raised by the grandparents then the naming conventions would fit. It might explain why Andrew is sympathetic to the case of Anne Dickson. But really this is just a theory.
My next step is to try one of the DNA tests and see where that takes me.
Cheers.
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sounds like painstaking search but rewarding