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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Jadea55 on Tuesday 20 October 20 05:50 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Could anyone help me with the names (or anything written) below in the red box?
I know the husbands name is Edwin McPherson Clark and the wife to be Annie Robertson.
I believe Annie's fathers name is Duncan McNicol (from what's written) and Edwin's dads name is possibly James. I really can't read anything else, any help with anything written is greatly appreciated!
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Annie Robertson McNICOL
Her father is Duncan McNicol. Not sure of his occupation but could be Slater
Her mother is Catherine McNicol M.S (maiden surname) ROBERTSON
at 27 or 37 Oswald Street, Glasgow.
By Declaration in the presence of
James McNicol, Catherine McNicol and Nigel someone. I can’t be sure of their addresses.
You could ask Scotland’s people to provide a better image than this.
Edwin McPherson Clark is some sort of Fitter
His father is James Thomas Clark, a Tea Box maker
His mother is Sarah m.s. Wi- - e. Possibly WISHE. But I am not confident
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Annie Robertson McNICOL
Her father is Duncan McNicol. Not sure of his occupation but could be Slater
Her mother is Catherine McNicol M.S (maiden surname) ROBERTSON
at 27 or 37 Oswald Street, Glasgow.
By Declaration in the presence of
James McNicol, Catherine McNicol and Nigel someone. I can’t be sure of their addresses.
You could ask Scotland’s people to provide a better image than this.
Edwin McPherson Clark is some sort of Fitter
His father is James Thomas Clark, a Tea Box maker
His mother is Sarah m.s. Wi- - e. Possibly WISHE. But I am not confident
Thank you for your repsonse!
Would you know if it was it common for someone to change their middle name once they got married?
I have other documents from after their marriage that shows 'Annie McNicol Clark' Not Robertson, I had assumed Robertson was her maiden name for sometime now.
I will definitely ask Scotland's people for a clearer image!
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The Scots will be awake soon, and might have a different view but I think when she goes by Annie McNicol Clark she is referring to her maiden name.
And at her marriage Annie Robertson McNicol obviously refers to her mother’s maiden name, and is probablY how she was registered.
Perhaps here.
Birth
MCNICOL
ANNIE ROBERTSON
F
1902
564/1 962
Greenock East
Death
CLARK
ANNIE ROBERTSON
44
1947
644/6 808
Townhead
Same registration
MCNICOL
ANNIE ROBERTSON
44
1947
644/6 808
Townhead
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I am wondering about the witnesses to the declaration. Perhaps not Catherine McNicol. She may have died in child birth?
MCNICOL
CATHERINE
33
1902
564/1 460
Greenock
ROBERTSON
CATHERINE
33
1902
564/1 460
Greenock East
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I concur with Mckha489. Request a better image from Scotland’s People, they are very obliging! Column 7 reads “ Warrant of Sheriff Substitute of Lanarkshire dated February 20th 1923 “
Sarah’s maiden surname possibly “ Wylie “.
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The Scots will be awake soon, and might have a different view but I think when she goes by Annie McNicol Clark she is referring to her maiden name.
And at her marriage Annie Robertson McNicol obviously refers to her mother’s maiden name, and is probablY how she was registered.
Perhaps here.
Birth
MCNICOL
ANNIE ROBERTSON
F
1902
564/1 962
Greenock East
Death
CLARK
ANNIE ROBERTSON
44
1947
644/6 808
Townhead
Same registration
MCNICOL
ANNIE ROBERTSON
44
1947
644/6 808
Townhead
Thank you!! I found her death certificate!!
Honestly, I need to check Scotland's People more, at least this document is clear.
It has her parents information on it so at least that answers one question :)
But I will request a clearer copy from them of the marriage certificate!
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I read the certificate as follows:
1923
On the twentieth day of February at 27 Oswald Street, Glasgow
By declaration in presence of James McKay of ?? Street Glasgow and C?? McM ?? Road, Glasgow
Edwin McPherson Clark 23
Edwin M. Clark / Engine Fitter / Bachelor
Annie Robertson McNicol 21
Annie R. McNicol / Spinster
400 (or 460?) Cumberland Street, South Glasgow
10 Caithness Street, Glasgow
James Thomas Clark / Tea Box Maker
Sarah Clark ms (maiden surname) W?
Duncan McNicol / Slater
Catherine McNicol ms (maiden surname) Robertson (deceased)
Warrant of Sheriff Substitute of Lanarkshire / Dated February 20th 1923
1923 February 23rd / At Glasgow / Signature
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Sarah’s maiden surname possibly “ Wylie “.
Marriage
CLARK
JAMES THOMAS
WYLIE
SARAH
1886
564/2 10
Greenock
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This was what in Scotland was called "an irregular marriage." Prior to 1940, it was not possible to marry in a Registry Office in Scotland.
Irregular marriages were legal in Scotland until 1st July 1940 and could be registered by obtaining a Justice of the Peace's or Sheriff's warrant. These show up in marriage certificates as marriage 'by declaration' or by 'warrant of sheriff substitute'.
From http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-EDINBURGH/2006-08/1156284811, a further explanation:
There were two types of marriages in Scotland the 'regular' and the 'irregular.' The regular marriage was done by a clergy member of the Church.
An irregular marriage did not require the presence of a clergyman. Irregular marriages were by exchange of promises before witnesses, by betrothal and consummation, or by cohabitation and repute, and were forms of marriage recognised by Scots Law, yet may have taken place without any official record of the event. They remained a lawful form of marriage until the Marriage (Scotland) Act of 1939, which effectively replaced them by register office ceremonies. (Not previously an option in Scotland).
See:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/
In a 'warrant of sheriff substitute' a couple would go to the office of the local Sheriff (Sheriff-Substitute) with two witnesses. The form of contract generally adopted was a simple written declaration of acceptance of each other as husband and wife before two witnesses - and that form was
often drawn up by the Sheriff's office. The Sheriff (or his representative) would then issue a "warrant" (certification of the marriage) which the couple would present to the Registrar who would officially record the marriage and issue a certificate.
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Elwyn Soutter's explanation might benefit from a little clarification; the sheriff-substitute was the judge for the local area (the term is now simply "sheriff", with the former post of "Sheriff" now held by the Sheriff Principal).
In a 'warrant by sheriff substitute' a couple would go to the local Sheriff Court with two witnesses. Prior to 1916 they had to pay a fine for entering into an irregular marriage, but that was abolished by the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1916. The form of registration was specified in the schedule to the 1916 Act, so all of the information entered into the register had to be provided before application to the sheriff (1916 Act, s.1). The sheriff would then issue a "warrant" (certification of the marriage) which the sheriff clerk (the official who recorded all judicial and administrative decisions) would present to the Registrar within three days (1916 Act, s. 1 (3), who would officially record the marriage and issue a certificate.
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SP has a marriage of Edwin Mcperson Clark to URQUHART 1948 so presumably
Straight after Ann Mcnicoll CLARK nee ROBERTSON died
Have you understood the naming system now ?
McNicoll was a middle name not sn alternative surname
Usually first daughter is named after maternal grandmother first name then grans surname then fathers surname
Second daughter after fathers mother
and third daughter after the mother
So you could predict 3 daughters to be called :
Catherine Robertson CLARK
Sarah Wylie Clark
Ann nicols Clark
First son would be called james clark (some families repeat surname as middle name)father's father
second son would have wife.s fathers name so duncan mcnicoll, clark
Third son same name as father edwin Clark
My hunch from names youve told me in pm.is
You may find children from a previous marriage & third marriage with first name and surname of those wives mother might be worth looking for child deaths too.
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Also you could make an educated guess that Annie mcnicoll ROBERTSON
Could be named after a grandmother...
First daughter of her mother s mothet
second daughter of duncan ROBERTSON so named after his mother Annie Nicoll or wife if third daughter
Which could take you back another generation
But you have to watch out for births outside marriage which skews predictions
Hope that helps
Ps Edwins death confirms his mother was Sarah WYLIE
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If you are lucky you might strike a person with two surnames for their middle name, which is a bonus, especially as the certificate can not be ordered.
Cheers
KHP
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Maybe:
Witnesses James McKay, 61 Camden Street, Robertson and Christina? McAndrew? 10 (70?) New City Road Glasgow
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I agree that first witness could be james McKay
Does it say camden street London ?
Second witness definitely Glasgow cant see an upstroke for a T it begins with Ch I thought maybe Cherise
Surname looks short Mc_____
Was second witness automatically a woman ?
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No city stated, so it will be the Camden St in Glasgow.
Re second witness being a woman, no not automatic, but my reading was that the last two people were a couple at the same address.