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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Jennyb1 on Tuesday 06 October 20 06:40 BST (UK)
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Elizabeth Smith b 1799 (date from her headstone death age) was thought to be part Aboriginal but a mtDNA has disproved that and her Haplogroup is H1bb. We are searching several of her children's descendants and have found many links to Charles Buckland and Mary Hearne,Buckinghamshire through their daughter Mary b 1790 who married Henry Cooper. There are also DNA matches with other Bucklands in Devon, Kent and many other areas in England. Some of these matches are in England, USA Australia and New Zealand. Does anyone know of people from this family who may have some to Australia as convicts from 1788 to 1798?
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You may get more views and replies if you transferthis topic to australia forum
many people do not look at DNA forum but may recognise these names and be able to contribute something even if they have not tested DNA .
Good luck
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Thanks for your message, and hint, I have asked for it to be moved to the Buckland Romany topic, which may be more appropriate than the Australian forum
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Do you have any evidence that these Bucklands were Romany or Convicts? If you do, it might give a starting point for further research.
Whereabouts in Australia did Elizabeth live/die?
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Hi Jenny,
Is it this topic ? https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=507832.0
Regards
Sarah
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yes give that a try
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I personally don’t think that moving this thread and attaching it to the other Buckland thread would be too helpful.
See what Sarah advises, but I think you could just post on that thread that you are looking for a Buckland or Heard descendant who went to Australia and see if anyone has any information that might help. Maybe leave this DNA query here on the DNA board? :-\
Have you or your contacts traced all the descendants of Charles Buckland and Mary Hearne? I think you might need to work on constructing family trees for these people and their descendants to see if you can find their connection to Elizabeth Smith.
I know almost nothing about mtDNA tracing, and I am sure someone will be able to advise further, but as the mtDNA follows the female line, could the rumoured aboriginal component be from her father? :-\
Have you considered an autosomal DNA test? They are a lot more popular than mtDNA tests so you might find you get more matches that with your mtDNA test.
Do you have any evidence that these Bucklands were Romany or Convicts? If you do, it might give a starting point for further research.
Whereabouts in Australia did Elizabeth live/die?
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I think it better if you take the post off and I will rewrite it again, we have made trees for Buckland, we have had autosomal tests, that is how we found two romany connections to Buckland, and we know there was no aboriginal father or mother. thanks for your help
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There are two threads on the Australia board re this particular Elizabeth SMITH and John BAILEY. :) :)
Add ... she was born and raised in NSW. :)
JM
Elizabeth Smith b 1799 (date from her headstone death age) was thought to be part Aboriginal but a mtDNA has disproved that and her Haplogroup is H1bb. We are searching several of her children's descendants and have found many links to Charles Buckland and Mary Hearne,Buckinghamshire through their daughter Mary b 1790 who married Henry Cooper. There are also DNA matches with other Bucklands in Devon, Kent and many other areas in England. Some of these matches are in England, USA Australia and New Zealand. Does anyone know of people from this family who may have some to Australia as convicts from 1788 to 1798?
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Freely available online from the NSW Archives is the index of CONVICT indents for 1788-1801. Around 12,000 names, fully digitised. :)
JM
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There are two threads on the Australia board re this particular Elizabeth SMITH and John BAILEY. :) :)
Add ... she was born and raised in NSW. :)
JM
That helps give some background to the search - thanks JM. :)
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:)
Elizabeth is currently detailed at Ancestry on 1094 trees.. yes, over one thousand !
JM
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Hi there,
I am not a descendant of Elizabeth SMITH.
So if I am understanding this, you are currently thinking that Elizabeth SMITH (born 1799 as her info based on her headstone) was the daughter of Mary HEARNE (born 1790) who married Henry COOPER.
May I ask about how and when Mary HEARNE arrived in New South Wales. (add, as either Hearne or Buckland, as Elizabeth was noted on a NSW 1820s General Muster as born in the colony).
I can see that Joseph SMITH arrived Sydney NSW per the Neptune 1790, and had been tried at the Old Bailey in Sept 1789. I cannot find Mary HEARNE or Henry COOPER arriving to NSW before 1800. I can find Mary FLANIGAN who arrived 1815 per Francis & Eliza, she was born about 1790 in Dublin, Ireland. in the 1828 NSW census she was recorded as mary HEARN, free by servitude, with John HEARN, Lower Portland Head (the then local name for what is now referred to as Macdonald River).
JM
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We we see what the OP says, but I understood that there was no known connection between Elizabeth Smith in Australia and the Hearne/Bucklands in Bucks.
I believe that the descendants of Elizabeth Smith have taken DNA tests. They have connections with a number of people who all have Buckland and Hearne in common, but they can’t work out the lineage from Elizabeth Smith to Mary 1790, the daughter of Charles Buckland and Mary Hearne.
I might have got that wrong though.
As all parties related to these families seem to have done a lot of research, it is possible there was an NPE somewhere back in time, or perhaps a missing child whose descendants have not yet been traced.
As mentioned I am not up with with mtDNA tests, so I can’t offer anything related to that connection, but what kind of relationship do you share with your autosomal matches who have Mary 1790 in their trees? How many cms for example? It might give an idea how far back you might need to go. As I understand it, mtDNA matches could be thousands of years ago.
What do you know about Charles and Mary and their descendants? Were you able to trace them all and did they remain in England?
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Cannot find BUCKLAND in NSW prior to 1800, but .... I can see a Henry BUCK arriving August 1791, :) trial Bristol on 18 Jan 1790, 7 year sentence.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convict-indents-digitised-index
Could Mary be Mary HEARNS alias KEARENS? (as per the Convict Indents digitised index linked in this post).
JM
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There's been two more trees uploaded .... now at 1096.
So here's some info gleaned...
Elizabeth "Lizzie" SMITH was
:) born 25 November 1799, Hawkesbury NSW
:) married 8 March 1820, Windsor, NSW (JM notes this is same district as Hawkesbury). Husband : John Thomas BAILEY (alternative spelling BAYLEY)
:) Daughter born 5 November 1821, Portland NSW (so still in same broad district of Hawkesbury)
:) and errrrrrrr .... same tree .... Elizabeth and John marry (again ?) about 1823, St Albans
:) :) :) :) :) :) A large number of children born
:) 27 March 1846, Inquest at Wollombi for death of Elizabeth SMITH.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66379149 Hawkesbury Courier 16 April 1846. Mrs BAILEY...
ADD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228065013 The Star 10 April 1846
ADD
Info on Mary KEARNS 1768-1826 ... born Ireland, transported to NSW in 1793, .... settler in the Hawkesbury district ...
https://chalker-charker.com/mary-kearns.html
JM
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First of all, most of those thousand odd trees with Elizabeth Smith have been copied and are incorrect but no way to get people to change. Why it is incorrect? no descendants of Elizabeth have Aboriginal in their autosomal ethnicity that can be traced back to Elizabeth. The mtDNA shows a common English haplogroup H1bb. Among the thousands of matches I have checked, in the range of 6-11cm there are two people who have Romany from England. Many of Elizabeths descendants have south Asia, or Iberian Peninsula which is suggestive of Romany. Cooper is one of the common names we are finding in trees with matches in England. I have checked Elizabeths who married a Smith, with no clues to show someone who may have left their husband. Elizabeth Smiths who married other Male names, again no clues, I have a list of all the Elizabeths born in Australia between 1790 and 1800. I am in the process of working through that list. There is also the possibility she was a child of a convict, and normally there are no details of their arrival.
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This might give an indication of your connection with a 6/11cm match:
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4
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Yes Ruskie, DNA painter is good, but when people don't answer their emails, and are not on gedmatch or my heritage, that doesn't really work.
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I messaged on Ancestry using the message from profile function and got replies when I hadnt got replies using
speech bubble method
Also sometimes make contact rewording my question .have had some replies months later from people who s subs had lapsed .
Good luck