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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: suzyvan on Saturday 03 October 20 09:02 BST (UK)
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I have a Death certificate stating the person was buried at Fidler's Point near Taree.
I cannot find any information on Fidler's Point, let alone a burial ground/Cemetery. I am wondering could it be a lonely grave?
Does anyone have any ideas?
Thanks Kaz
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There are some Trove newspaper results that associate places or properties where the name includes Turee with a Fiddlers Point
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18776977
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110731533
M
Add - who is the death cert for?
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TUREE Vale Cemetery :) Coolah, 2843 NSW .... I am on E reader, so cannot do live links, but there is a heritage protection status on that cemetery - nsw govrnment listing.
Hope there's clues there, otherwise could be couple of days before I can look up properly.
JM
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Thanks to Matthew and majm.
Is Turee and Taree the same place? It is Taree on death certificate.
The name is Patrick Carr He was killed in a horse and buggy Accident.
Fatal Accident.--Sunday last, when the down coach from Albury to Sydney was about 60 miles from the former place, the horses became unmanageable, and bolted ; after tearing along for some distance, the coach was dashed against a log, and completely smashed to pieces ; nor was this, unfortunately, the worst of the accident. The driver Patrick Carr, by name, formerly employed on Osborne's station, and well known at Yackandandah, and received such injuries that he died from the effects of them.
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NSW Death reg 3597/1860 Patrick CARR says 'Died Cassilis' which looks to be close to Turee Creek
M
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More accounts of the accident. It was 3 miles from Kiamba. He was taken to Adams's Hotel - where was that?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5679818?searchTerm=%22albury%22%20coach%20accident
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111785433?searchTerm=%22albury%22%20coach%20accident
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Cassilis .... hundreds of miles north of Albury and Taree is many more hundreds north ....
To get from ALBURY to Sydney by coach in 1860s you would NOT go anywhere near either TUREE or TAREE. Even in this century there's around 7 hours driving from Sydney to ALBURY. :)
JM
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That is the mystery with this whole record. It was a mail coach from what I can understand and the registration at bmd NSW has been checking on it as well as the registration date is different to newspaper clipping and his wife's records.
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I did google a while back and found that the coach did go north of Sydney across to Cassilis and down to Albury.
The coach had just been purchased from Bendigo. The witness was William Robinson/Robert Elliott
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NSW Death reg 3597/1860 Patrick CARR says 'Died Cassilis' which looks to be close to Turee Creek
M
This one was 45 years old
A tree has a Patrick Francis CARR married to Emma FIELD in Albury 1859
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According to this report, the mail coach was on its way from Tarcutta to Albury. That ties in with the other report that mentions Kiamba (Kyeamba?).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114837563?searchTerm=mail%20coach%20accident
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This report also places the accident on the road from Tarcutta: Adams' hotel must have been on that road:
"FATAL MAIL ACCIDENT.-On Friday afternoon, at about two o'clook, a Mr. Carr, the mail driver, was returning from Tarcutta, on the gap between Mr. Stachan's and Mr. Adams', the horses became frightened, and the driver of the coach lost all control over them. The coach came down the hill at a fearful pace, over logs, stumps, and all obstacles which presented themselves. The coach was brought to a standstill in a deep creek at the bottom of the hill, where the vehicle came in contact with the limb of a tree. The shock overturned the coach and smashed it to pieces. The driver sustained injuries of such a nature that he died shortly afterwards. Some diggers who were passing by, conveyed the unfortunate mailman under the shade of a tree, where everything was done that could be thought of, to restore animation. Deceased, when picked up, was black in the face ; the blood running very fast from his left ear. As soon as possible he was removed in a spring cart to Adams' hotel, but he continued insensible until ten o'clook, when he died. The only outward mark of injury was a slight scratch on the right temple. Deceased was burled on Sunday.-Albury Border Post, March 28"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18675807?searchTerm=mail%20coach%20accident
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I did google a while back and found that the coach did go north of Sydney across to Cassilis and down to Albury.
The coach had just been purchased from Bendigo. The witness was William Robinson/Robert Elliott
Very interesting. Back in the 1830s the road to ALBURY went from Sydney, South. It still does. Hume Highway :)
Cassilis even in the 1870s was often reached from Sydney via the Hunter -boat then coach.
JM ,
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Have you read this last post of ShaunJ?
It is very informative. I am starting to question the validly of my death certificate now. I have been querying it ever since I received it 2004.
Cannot find another registration that would fit. and am told nor do NSW registry.
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What is the cause of death on the certificate?
M
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Matthewj64 most fields are unknown as is cause of death.
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Matthewj64 most fields are unknown as is cause of death.
Thanks, does it have a date that agrees with the accident?
M
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3/7/1860 no does not correspond except for the year. that is why I started the query with BMD.
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A tree has a Patrick Francis CARR married to Emma FIELD in Albury 1859
'The Wagga Wagga Express reports.....The unfortunate man leaves a young wife. to whom he had only been married five months ago'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article114837563
NSW reg 1202/1859
Patrick Francis CARRE to Emma Elizabeth FIELD, District Albury
M
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Have you read this last post of ShaunJ?
It is very informative. I am starting to question the validly of my death certificate now. I have been querying it ever since I received it 2004.
Cannot find another registration that would fit. and am told nor do NSW registry.
The civil registration process for registering bdm in NSW commenced in 1856. So a sudden death after Feb 1856 in any regional area should be registered with NSWBDM ...but .... and it is a huge B U T .... not all sudden deaths in that era were formally registered. If a coroner or police magistrate authorised a burial prior to a formal enquiry then that burial order should have been followed by the next step ... formally registering a death. However, sudden deaths were not a frequent event.
To me, the death registered in Cassilis has absolutely no connection with the sudden death in a coach accident in the Tarcutta / ALBURY area.
I have written many posts across a number of years on many threads on the Australia board, noting that NSWBDM processes in the 1850s through to WWI were based on verbal advice to local deputies. Missing rural or regional death registrations when the death was a sudden/accident/police enquiry/coroner is not unusual in those early years of the civil process.
JM
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A tree has a Patrick Francis CARR married to Emma FIELD in Albury 1859
'The Wagga Wagga Express reports.....The unfortunate man leaves a young wife. to whom he had only been married five months ago'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article114837563
NSW reg 1202/1859
Patrick Francis CARRE to Emma Elizabeth FIELD, District Albury
M
And
This report also places the accident on the road from Tarcutta: Adams' hotel must have been on that road:
"FATAL MAIL ACCIDENT.-On Friday afternoon, at about two o'clook, a Mr. Carr, the mail driver, was returning from Tarcutta, on the gap between Mr. Stachan's and Mr. Adams', the horses became frightened, and the driver of the coach lost all control over them. The coach came down the hill at a fearful pace, over logs, stumps, and all obstacles which presented themselves. The coach was brought to a standstill in a deep creek at the bottom of the hill, where the vehicle came in contact with the limb of a tree. The shock overturned the coach and smashed it to pieces. The driver sustained injuries of such a nature that he died shortly afterwards. Some diggers who were passing by, conveyed the unfortunate mailman under the shade of a tree, where everything was done that could be thought of, to restore animation. Deceased, when picked up, was black in the face ; the blood running very fast from his left ear. As soon as possible he was removed in a spring cart to Adams' hotel, but he continued insensible until ten o'clook, when he died. The only outward mark of injury was a slight scratch on the right temple. Deceased was burled on Sunday.-Albury Border Post, March 28"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18675807?searchTerm=mail%20coach%20accident
So it is possible that the mail driver was based in ALBURY, and drove it back and forward between Tarcutta and ALBURY never venturing further into any other regions of NSW ...
I will be back home in several days, but perhaps a wild card search on the week for date of death with surname as Ca* would help.
JM
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Thanks majm
This has confirmed my suspicion...…. I have an incorrect Certificate!
I just spent ages replying to your post...….It disappeared when I pushed send, it told me someone had a reply.....then it vanished...so annoying!!!
I wonder where the burial took place? I did a check of places named of available burials online.......no luck....guessing there is no headstone so would be hard to track down....
Thanks to all the RC's that have produced these news clips to narrow things down and putting him in the correct areas.
I have searched Trove many times and have never found these latest ones!!!
Thanks again Kaz
ps The trees online have used my incorrect certificate..... I shared it with one another person, next I know it is in everyone's tree...my tree is not online.
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Using NSW bdm online features and wild card etc ...
63 deaths registered in the BDM district of ALBURY (included more than the town ) for all of 1860 (ref no. 2727 for John WATTS d.d. 7 Dec 1859 to 2789 Henry DILLON d.d. 14 Nov 1860.
#2739 drills down to a death in the second week of February 1850. ... Oops ... edit ... 1860. It is for an unknown male, aged 40.
JM nb one finger typo #2739 / 1860 is for a death registered ALBURY District in 1860, not 1850. Sorry.
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Thanks majm.....I will be onto that on Tuesday morning! fingers crossed... won't hold out too much hope as if they didn't know his name....who knows maybe I will get burial place?
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Using NSW bdm online features and wild card etc ...
63 deaths registered in the BDM district of ALBURY (included more than the town ) for all of 1860 (ref no. 2727 for John WATTS d.d. 7 Dec 1859 to 2789 Henry DILLON d.d. 14 Nov 1860.
#2739 drills down to a death in the second week of February 1850. ... Oops ... edit ... 1860. It is for an unknown male, aged 40.
JM nb one finger typo #2739 / 1860 is for a death registered ALBURY District in 1860, not 1850. Sorry.
I have just edited my post.
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Thanks majm.....I will be onto that on Tuesday morning! fingers crossed... won't hold out too much hope as if they didn't know his name....who knows maybe I will get burial place?
Please do NOT order that d.c. it is not for the mailman who died late March 1860.
JM
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Wasn't going to order.... I am in communications already with NSWBMD's and we are trying to work this problem out, will ask them to check this record, I know burial day so maybe I can eliminate from that. They have all the proof of what I have so these two new news clipping will narrow it down further'
BMD's have been very helpful so far so fingers crossed.
I have 2 incorrect certificates for this death already fortunately back 2000 and 2004 so not as expensive as they are now. ???
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More accounts of the accident. It was 3 miles from Kiamba. He was taken to Adams's Hotel - where was that?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5679818?searchTerm=%22albury%22%20coach%20accident5
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111785433?searchTerm=%22albury%22%20coach%20accident
Three miles from Kyeamba ... steep hills, many creeks.
Please do post any info from NSWBDM ... it is unusual for them to provide a deep search without charging a fee. The newspaper findings would have been easily accessed by researchers going to the National Library or the NSW State Library decades ago, long before internet. :) My living ancient rellies, former senior officers with NSWBDM eagerly await to hear how this progresses.
Wasn't going to order.... I am in communications already with NSWBMD's and we are trying to work this problem out, will ask them to check this record, I know burial day so maybe I can eliminate from that. They have all the proof of what I have so these two new news clipping will narrow it down further'
BMD's have been very helpful so far so fingers crossed.
I have 2 incorrect certificates for this death already fortunately back 2000 and 2004 so not as expensive as they are now. ???
JM
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NSW BDM has appointed official transcription agents .... there are 3 at present. Each provides excellent service, well respected by all family history groups. Much easier to conduct research when someone is professionally trained and very familiar with the handwriting scripts of the deputy registrars, and cheaper as well.
JM
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:) still one finger typing into tiny box.
Go to NSW archives ... Publicans ... look for Harry or Henry ADAMS who had a hotel about 10 miles west of Kyeamba for much of the 1850s into the 1860s. ... Little Billabong Creek. ;D
Thanks to one of my ancient rellies :D looking from his armchair through online indexes ;D
Add The Woolpack Inn a/or Australia Arms...
JM
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Hi,
On the 1865 marriage image from Vic BDM, what details re her widowhood (date etc) did Emma give? Ref 1427/1865.
JM
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Right, watch my spelling ...
Historic civil parish maps, ;D for NSW
Parish of Little BILLABUNG
County of Goulburn
Land district of ALBURY
On the main road from Kyeamba, South, to quite a few parcels of land for Alexander and John ROSS.
On western side of that main road ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 50 acres in name of Henry ADAMS,
Lower Right hand corner A.O. map no. 113976 or perhaps 11396. Goldfields maps. (Hopefully that's enough to help my ancient rellies sort further...)
JM
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There is a burial ground immediately south of Henery ADAMS 50 acres.
Also on same map is Lunt's Vale Cemetery, formally dedicated 1873.
JM
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There is a burial ground immediately south of Henery ADAMS 50 acres.
Also on same map is Lunt's Vale Cemetery, formally dedicated 1873.
JM
yes 23 march 1860
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oops that didn't go where intended it....lol ???
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Also, clearly noted burial ground on Edward DUNN's 50 acres (adjoining Henry ADAMS 50 acres) at the following AO Map 41659 at the LRS historic parish maps website.
Also
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/about/environment/protecting-heritage/old-hume-highway/old-hume-hwy-home.html
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/about/environment/protecting-heritage/hume-highway-duplication/history-begins-with-a-road.pdf (130 book, very detailed). The section 9 covers from Tarcutta to Holbrook - so it includes Kyeamba and Little Billabong. pdf page numbers 92 - 93 have good details.
There is a burial ground immediately south of Henery ADAMS 50 acres.
Also on same map is Lunt's Vale Cemetery, formally dedicated 1873.
JM
yes 23 march 1860
So when Mrs Carr next married it was in Victoria. That is very fortunate for family historians, for the Vic BDMs are amongst the most detailed in the world. Hopefully that m.c. will have details about her parentage and her own origins that may not be on her NSW BDM 1859 m.c. So in 1865 she gave her widowhood had commenced 23 March 1860. To me, there is no need to search further for a NSW death certificate for Patrick CARR. I doubt that the Registrar General's Office processed any notification of it in 1860. The newspaper reports plus the 1859 NSW marriage and the 1865 Vic marriage are more than sufficient to confirm that the Mr Carr who died as a result of that Mail Coach accident and taken to Mr Adams Hotel where he succumbed at around 10 pm 23 March 1860 is all the validation you need.
JM
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Agh ... ;D ;D ;D much better ... as I am on a borrowed desktop puter with a 24" screen ...
here is a proper live link to the parish map at the National Library of Australia. You can zoom in and out .... There's Henry ADAMS acres ...
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-1271273079/view
Here is a further pdf, only 11 pages http://www.asha.org.au/pdf/australasian_historical_archaeology/02_04_WinstonGregson.pdf
JM
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Thank you majm for all the work you have put in on this post. The map was brilliant.
Happy to close the request.
Thank you all.
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Hi. Not sure how old this feed is but wanted to let you know that I researched and wrote a book on the Lunts Vale Cemetery at Little Billabong, NSW. This is the same cemetery that shows on the may adjoining Henry Adams's Inn where Patrick Carr was taken. The vast majority of the graves are unmarked. The cemetery is now in the median strip of the north and south bound lanes of the Hume Highway approx. 30 klms north of Holbrook. Did you ever have any luck obtaining a death certificate for him? I did not come across his name in my research. Cheers.
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Hi Cheryl, No was never able to locate a death or burial registration unfortunately. Was fortunate I managed to obtain the information I did. Thank you for your information, I like you am still keeping an eye out for some clue as to his whereabouts. Thank you for this information and should I ever find more information will let you know. Suzi
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I wonder if there are any details at the NSW Archives on the Inquest into Deaths index cards for him?
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I have been doing some more searching since your post ....😒😢.....time wasting!!!! You would think he would have been registered for a death as was well documented in papers. I am in the West so makes it difficult to search, the NSW register searched for me with no result (well hope they did!).
Do you have relative interest in the Lunt's Dale Cemetery? Reading the Winston-Dunstan Biography of Two Villages between 1847 and 1873 as many as 140 bodies are buried there in unmarked graves in this remote area, was suggest the strength of the beer could have been the cause. LOL.
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Hi Suzi. In my research I confirmed 47 burials for the Lunts Vale Cemetery and have all of their individual death certificates. When Jonathon Winston-Gregson did his groundwork for his thesis, he used what was called a "sounding stick". Unfortunately this method does not differentiate the difference between an old rabbit burrow/warren, tree root etc. so in the scheme of things now and with modern technology the sounding stick is not considered to be accurate at all. Even on the 1858 map the cemetery in todays measurement is 45m x 83m. In April of this year I launched my book "Stuck in the Median Strip .... Remembering Those Buried at Little Billabong, NSW" at the Little Billabong Public Hall. It was well attended. I also had two notice boards erected at the rest area. One is a brief history of the district and the second is all the names and dates of death of the confirmed burials. I will keep looking.