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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: darianb on Monday 07 September 20 22:43 BST (UK)
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Due to some close DNA matches, I have a hypothesis that my great grandfather, Frederick William MOORE had a daughter out of wedlock, named Cathleen in 1888.
On Ancestry there is a birth for Cathleen MOORE, Auckland, 1888 folio 2276 but that doesn't show up on BDM. What I can see though is the birth of Cathleen HUTCHISON, mother Margaret, father Frederick in 1888. This birth is another one of the seven births on folio 2276 in 1888 on Ancestry. The reason I believe these could be the same people is that when Cathleen marries Percy ALLPORT in 1910, her name is MOORE. They then move in with Margaret SCHILLER/SCHULER (nee HUTCHISON) in 109 Richmond Rd according to the 1911 electoral roll.
On folio 2276 five of the seven names have BDM numbers 1888/16578-16582 but two are missing, including Cathleen MOORE.
Frederick William MOORE lived a road away in Parnell from Margaret HUTCHISON, who also lived a road away from Frederick William SCHILLER/Frederich Wilhelm SCHULER (a German immigrant whose name changed over the years) who she married in 1894, meaning they could easily have known each other.
Question: In 1888, how would a birth be recorded if the parents were not married or if the father was not involved? Could it be mother's surname but father's first name listed? Has anyone seen a situation where a birth shows up on Ancestry but not BDM?
Thanks
Darian
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Death
1975/39675, ALLPORT, Cathleen, 24 May 1888
Birth
1888/16579 Hutchison Cathleen Margaret Frederick
Interpolating the date for this birth gives 24 May 1888
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Question: In 1888, how would a birth be recorded if the parents were not married or if the father was not involved? Could it be mother's surname but father's first name listed? Has anyone seen a situation where a birth shows up on Ancestry but not BDM?
Hello Darian
To answer your question(s) firstly .....
* Despite whatever the legal requirement was at the time of a birth, (any birth), there was always the capacity for "false" information to be provided to the registrar. [e.g. In many a case, where the parents weren't married to each other, it may simply have been a desire on, say, the mother's part, to have her child's birth record show "a father's name. ]
Please refer to following which shows the "data collected" for birth registration in New Zealand :
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/birth
Obviously you would need to view the Birth registration record for Cathleen HUTCHISON (1888) to ascertain what further information appears.
[If purchasing this record from NZ BDM, be sure to request the "printout" version of same, which will give the maximum amount of information available. ]
* Yes, I've seen many a birth registration listed on the ancestry.com website, but not similarly listed on the NZ BDM online index. In some instances this has been due to spelling errors.
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Can you tell us when your great grandfather Frederick William MOORE, married, please ? (There are several men of that name.)
~ Lu
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Hi Darian
Had just been about to add similar info to that of Twiggy Tree :) ....
Of course you will already know that Cathleen married as "Kathleen Mabel MOORE" to Percy ALLPORT in 1910.
In the Will of Percy ALLPORT dated 31 March 1949, he does however clarify that his wife "Cathleen" is also known as "Kathleen".
~ Lu
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Just for the record here ...
The NZ Birth Index at ancestry.com, has >
1888
HUTCHISON - Cathleen
MOORE - Cathleen
both Folio 2276 ... both registered 3rd Quarter ... at Auckland
[Darian --- It may be worthwhile either phoning or emailing NZ BDM to get their take on why these two records exist ??? We here, can only speculate. You'll probably still have to purchase the birth printout to get all the info, though . :) ]
~ Lu
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In my experience 2 (or more) entries on a birth folio (microfiche) indicate that a formal adoption has taken place. Then there is usually also a later birth folio entry at the adoption date too.
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1888/16579 Hutchison Cathleen Margaret Frederick**
**A clue??
Minniehaha.
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Hi Darian
Not sure if you are interested in having additional information for Margaret HUTCHISON (SCHULER) ?
At this link you can see some details of her death >
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/138828195/margaret-schuler#source
Have some other links I'll post shortly confirming that Margaret SCHULER moved with her second family, to Canada.
~ Lu
Edit : addition to existing text
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Darian, if you have access to ancestry (*worldwide), then there is a Canadian Expeditionary Force record WW1 for Margaret's son (Gustave Adolphe John SCHULER) known as "Gus".
Born Auckland, 10 February 1896 / Next-of-Kin : (Mother) Margaret SCHULER, Powell River, British Colombia, Canada.
Death:
Gustave Adolphe J. SCHULER
Died - 16 January 1976 aged 79 - Vancouver BC
Obituary date - 21 January 1976
[Info: at ancestry.com ]
~ Lu
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Margaret SCHULER (HUTCHISON)
Travelled with daughter Anstina, via Sydney and Honolulu to Vancouver, Canada.
Vessel : "Makura" - departed Sydney
Arrived : Vancouver BC 23 June 1914
Mrs Margaret SCHULER - 52 - born : Scotland - Race : Scotch ;D
Miss Anstina SCHULER - 16 years - born New Zealand - Race: German
[@ancestry - Canadian Passenger Lists ]
~ Lu
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Margaret SCHULER
Margaret's other daughter Pauline, travelled to Canada in 1913.
Seems she was accompanied by her brother Gustave (Gus).
Again, info from Canadian Passenger Lists (@ancestry) - some spelling variations occur too in Canadian records - SCHAULER / SCHULES :
Paulina M.A. SCHULER - aged 19 years - born NZ
[this is Pauline Margaret Alma* SCHULER b. 1894 - NZ ]
G. SCHULER - 17 years -- (b.1896 - no place given - but am assuming this was Gus SCHULER along with his sister Paulina ? ) UPDATE Found further information which confirms "Gus SCHULER aged 17 years - born New Zealand" was on this voyage.
--- arrived per "Marama" at Honolulu 17 June 1913
Entry into to Canada for both is at "Alien Arrivals Canada - 1904-1944" (indexed as "SCHAULER" and "SCHULER" ).
~ Lu
Edited to correct name at *
Further edit to insert UPDATE.
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I believe the indexes on Ancestry are the old microfiche ones, whereas the ones on the BDM website are totally new and taken from the original registers, hence some not very good attempts at getting the right spelling. The folio numbers are not the same between the two either.
Sometimes if there are two surnames one has been added later if the parents have later married, but were not married at the time of the child's birth.
Ian C
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Brief visit to Auckland, arrived "Orcades" - 26 September 1956
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X3FG-8F?i=6&cc=1609792&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQJDV-YZ8N
SCHULER - Gustave J
SCHULER - Gertrude F. (b. Canada - probably his wife? )
Also on this voyage >
HUTCHISON - Mrs. Paulina
(other passenger records show her as P.M.A. HUTCHISON and give age 62 (bc 1894) so fairly safe to assume this is Paulina SCHULER b. NZ 1894 - sister of above Gustave.)
The SCHULER's returned to Vancouver per "Orcades" arriving 21 October 1956 -
Paulina HUTCHISON departed Auckland per "Oronsay" in late December 1956 for Canada.
~ Lu
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Question: In 1888, how would a birth be recorded if the parents were not married or if the father was not involved? Could it be mother's surname but father's first name listed? Has anyone seen a situation where a birth shows up on Ancestry but not BDM?
Can you tell us when your great grandfather Frederick William MOORE, married, please ? (There are several men of that name.)
~ Lu
Thank you everyone for everything so far. I hadn't managed to connect the Canadian Schulers yet.
Interesting that Paulina was going by the name Hutchison. I wonder if it was because it was shortly after the war or if it was related to her birth date being only about six months after the wedding as far as I can tell.
I've contacted BDM to see why there might be two records. Twiggy mentions possible adoption so I'm hunting for that but I couldn't see Mr Schuler/Schiller adopting her as yet.
My Frederick William MOORE was born in Belfast in 1860 and came out to NZ in 1873 on the Hero, via Melbourne on the Ben Ledi in 1872. Still not sure why they were in Melbourne. He was with his mother, Victoria Moore (nee Brown), brother James Morgan MOORE, sister Amy Louse MOORE, and aunts named Haslett and Brown (the aunts eventually moved to San Francisco). He lived with his mother and sister (James Morgan moved to Australia) in Bradford St, Parnell. He ran a book/stamp shop for some time until selling up and buying an orchard in Henderson, West Auckland. In his late 40s, he married a widow, Florence Lucy GYLFE (nee HARRIS) and adopted her three children. He went on to have two daughters - another Kathleen (1915) and Hazel (1920). He died in 1951 having never hinted that he had another daughter.
He may have also been connected to the St George's Rowing club but I can't work out if that was him or his father-in-law now.
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Hi Darian
Thanks for the additional information ... it's helpful.
If you can hang in here for just a few minutes longer, I will post some further info re: Paulina for you to peruse.
~ Lu
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Paulina Margaret Alma SCHULER -- aka HUTCHISON
From FamilySearch >
This is Paulina's death record (no image unfortunately).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLTL-4Q5
I had gone in search of her because I was curious as to why she was using what essentially was her mother's maiden surname on her 1956 trip back to NZ.
Aside from this death record there is other data I'm still sifting through regarding Paulina. Will get back with an update shortly I hope.
~ Lu
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Paulina SCHULER (HUTCHISON)
This is a death record for a William HUTCHISON (born 1883) who has a mother named Margaret HUTCHISON and a wife named Paulina SCHULER ??
Something seems "fishy" here (but I only say that because I haven't at this stage been able to pinpoint what's what). ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL25-Z7P
~ Lu
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This is a marriage record for Edna Margaret HUTCHISON who was the daughter of Paulina M. SCHULER and William HUTCHISON :
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MR-B5RB
~ Lu
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At following link is the marriage record (image available) for Austina* SCHULER.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DRP3-ZR?i=475&cc=1307718
Looking at bride's signature her name certainly looks like "Austina" (and is also indexed as such).
Other records show "Anstina" ??
William Blair HUTCHISON and Paulina Margaret Alma HUTCHISON both of Powell River, BC, are witnesses to the marriage.
~ Lu
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Children of Paulina SCHULER and William HUTCHISON :
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL1Z-LBF
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL1D-GVS
Mmm ...is it just a coincidence that Paulina "married" a HUTCHISON ???
Cannot find births for any of her children ... and there doesn't appear to be a record of her marriage either. Was this William HUTCHISON a relative ?? And his "supposed father" William Blair HUTCHISON - can't see a death record ?
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Thanks, this is all very helpful. The possibility of fishy family relationships could make tracing my connection through DNA a bit complicated but I'll search for some descendants of the Schulers now that I know they went to Canada. The number of half siblings should hopefully mean that I can pinpoint exactly how I'm related to them. I'll post here once BDM gets back to me with an answer about what happened to Cathleen Moore's birth registration and depending on what they say, I'll buy Cathleen Hutchison's birth print out and perhaps Cathleen Moore's wedding print out.
With some luck, once I've solved this, I can then start to work out what happened to Fred Moore's father, the family brick wall!
Thanks again for all of your digging.
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Hi Darian
There is a "tree" at ancestry.com for Frederick William SCHULER (d. 1899) which appears to focus on Cathleen MOORE. Not sure if it's of any help to you ?
~ Lu
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Hi Darian
There is a "tree" at ancestry.com for Frederick William SCHULER (d. 1899) which appears to focus on Cathleen MOORE. Not sure if it's of any help to you ?
~ Lu
Yes, I had seen a couple of them, one by my DNA connection. I suspect the owner saw Frederick as the father and decided it was Frederick Schuler rather than Frederick Moore. That is possible but that wouldn't explain her Moore surname nor my DNA connection to Cathleen's descendants.
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As an answer to the original question that I posted, I've had a response from BDM NZ and they confirmed that the registration for Cathleen Moore's birth was replaced by the registration of Cathleen Hutchison, with her mother's surname. I haven't ordered the print out yet but with this information, DNA evidence, and the fact that Fred Moore and Margaret Hutchison were neighbours, I'm fairly sure that Cathleen's father was Frederick William Moore.
Since my last post, I believe I have found another child of Fred's to another woman but that still needs to be confirmed.
Thanks everyone for your help.