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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Designer Jeans on Monday 07 September 20 17:37 BST (UK)
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I am interested in
Date of Receipt 25/9/1919
Applicant: Patrick Freeman
Address: Secretary LGB, Whitehall (Local Government Board?)
Father and mother of applicant: John Freeman and Mary Merryman
Residence in 1851: Roscommon
County: Roscommon
Barony: Frenchpark
Parish: Tibohine
Townland: Cloonbunny
Does anyone know if this definitely confirms that Patrick was living in Ireland in 1919 please? Could he have applied if he was living in England?
Many thanks
DJ
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It looks like he was living in England to me.
I tried putting just London in the "Applicants present address" search box and it brings up 412 results lots of which are the same address as you have found
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Is this what you mean?
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246699/007246699_00892.pdf
I'm interpreting this that someone in the Local Government Board in Whitehall was making this enquiry in relation to Patrick Freeman and that outside of this origin of the enquiry, no specific address for Patrick in 1919 is to be inferred.
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Thank you both. Yes, that is it. It seems the Irish Local Government Board was located in Whitehall in 1919. It would narrow down my search for Patrick to know where he was living at the time.
I have tried researching the history of the Irish State Pension, but so far haven't found the small print on residency requirements.
Patrick was born circa 1846 and was in England by 1851. Do others feel that I am correct in thinking that Patrick must have returned to and lived in Ireland to qualify for a state pension?
DJ
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No, he was just trying to prove his age to qualify for a pension, in which he was unsuccessful. It doesn't tell you where the pension would have been paid.
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Where was Patrick living in 1911?
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Pass
Only sightings of Patrick are
1851 census Low Bankside, Stockport, Cheshire
John Freeman 40
Mary Freeman 40
Patrick Freeman 5
Daniel Freeman 1
all born Ireland
1861 census peel's Row, Lichfield, Staffs
John Freeman 40 b Ireland (bur Lichfield 1870 aged 55)
Mary Freeman 50 b Ireland (nee Merryman/Merriman)
Patrick Freeman 15 b Lichfield
Daniel Freeman 11 b Lichfield (emigrated to St Louis, Missouri in 1883)
Ann Freeman 2 b Lichfield
Anthony Merryman 50 b Ireland Boarder
Thomas Grefton 25 b Ireland Boarder
William Meacham 30 b Ireland Boarder
I have dead ends on Mary, Ann and Patrick, until Patrick popped up on the 1919 pension application
DJ
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It seems to me that when Patrick gave information in 1919 he was under the impression that he and his parents were living in Roscommon at the time of 1851 census. He may not have been able to recall how long he had lived in England, if he'd been there since he was a small child.
Are you sure it's the same family on 1851 & 1861 census, reply #6 ?
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Bear in mind that Irish partition was 1921 so in 1919 he may well have been seeking to prove his age and entitlement to a UK pension and the old census searches were used as unlike England where Birth registration commenced 1837 it only commenced 1864 in Ireland. However the line towards the bottom "Family not found" implies no entry could be found on the 1851 census and his claim would have been rejected. The Irish 1841 and 1851 census were subsequently lost 1922 in the Dublin Record Office fire.
The address at the top was eg sometimes a minister or official who filled in the form as the person was illiterate.
If the family was in Low Bankside, Stockport, Cheshire 1851 the fact they could not be found in Roscommon, Ireland is hardly surprising.
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/home.jsp
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-pension-records.html
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I am assuming that the Patrick applying for a pension in 1919 who gives his parent's name as John and Mary Merriman, abode Cloonbunny, Roscommon, is the same Patrick who was on the 1851 and 1861 census returns in England with parents John and Mary Merriman born Ireland (probably Roscommon). Patrick was born circa 1846 and his brother Daniel was bpt 1849 in Lichfield, so he was very young when he left Ireland.
I hadn't thought of him trying to claim a UK pension, good thinking outside the box Jon_ni Great links too. Thank you
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Perhaps your family moved to Lichfield because of family connections.
In 1851 there are several Roscommon Freemans. Lots of Roscommon people around there.
1881 2772/68/19
There is an Edward Freeman 64yrs from Cloonbun...
lodging with other folk from Roscommon.
I know it doesn’t help but it is interesting.
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It does help. In the beginning of this search that was all there was to go on. I have researched the Lichfield Freemans and several of the other Irish folk round and about. They are probably all connected in some way, but I am finding Irish records extremely hard going. Still, onwards and upwards. Now to try and pin down Patrick ...
Many thanks for all the help and interest
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The Old Age Pension was introduced in the UK & Ireland in 1909. To qualify you had to be 70 or over. Proof of age was required. However since birth certificates were only introduced in Ireland in 1864 (in contrast to 1837 in England), many applicants couldn’t produce one. So in Ireland other documents were acceptable, eg baptismal certificates, marriage certificates (if they established your age satisfactorily) and military discharge documents which normally contained the person's age. However if you had none of those, another approach was to check the 1851 (and sometimes the 1841) census. Obviously if a pension applicant in say 1917 was 4 or older in the 1851 census, then they’d be over 70 and so eligible. So there was a system whereby applicants without proof of age could complete a form stating where they were living (or thought they were living) in 1851, and where relevant, in 1841. This information would then be sent to the Public Record Office in Dublin and checked against the censuses. If their family was found in the relevant census and the age accurate, then they’d get their pension.
The pension was non-contributory, with the cost being borne by taxpayers generally. It was enacted in 1908 and was to pay a weekly pension of 5s a week (7s 6d for married couples) with effect from 1 January 1909. The level of benefit was deliberately set low to encourage workers to go on making their own provision for retirement. In order to be eligible, claimants had to have an income less than £31. 10s. a year, and also had to pass a 'character test'; only those with a 'good character' could receive the pensions. Claimants also had to have been resident in Great Britain and Ireland for at least twenty years to be eligible, and those who had not worked habitually were also not eligible.