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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: KeithMcNulty on Thursday 20 August 20 23:15 BST (UK)
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Hello, I am seeking to delve deeper into a family mystery. My great great grandfather was Denis (Dennis) COLLINS who lived with his wife Margaret (nee McMahon/McMann/McMachon) in Greenock - they had four daughters Eliza, Mary Ellen, Alice and Matilda as of the 1881 census at 2 East Blackhall St, Greenock.
Margaret died suddenly on 4th January 1884, and by May 1884 Denis had moved to Waterford, Ireland and had married a much younger woman and started a second family. There is no indication in the records that any of his daughters came with him. I want to try to find out more about these daughters and what happened to them, but for some of them I can't seem to find any records at all:
Eliza - she married William Williamson on 7th July 1881 at St John's Greenock. He was living with the Collins family during the 1881 census and is indicated in that census as being from Ireland. After this point, I can find no further record of this couple or any children they may have had.
Mary Ellen - she was present at the wedding of Eliza and William and signed as a witness. However I can find no record of her after this point.
Alice - I found Alice in Smyllum Orphanage in the 1891 census and I found a death record for her, still at Smyllum in 1895 which confirms her parents identities as Denis and Margaret (her father is marked as deceased but this is false).
Matilda - I find no record for her after the 1881 census.
I am particularly interested if finding out anything about Eliza Williamson (nee Collins), Mary Ellen Collins or Matilda Collins and I am hoping someone might be interested in helping me crack this and can offer some inspiration?
Many thanks!
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Birthyears/Birthplaces needed for tracing purposes
1881 shows as follows
Eliza 20 (1861) b Mauritius??
Mary Ellen 14 (1867) b England
Matilda 5 (1876) Greenock
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Many thanks for the quick response.
Eliza was indeed born in Mauritius - Denis was serving with the British Army at the time there and his wife was with him. c1860 is the most information I have here. She is listed as 21 in her marriage certificate dated 7th July 1881.
Mary Ellen I believe was possibly born in Lancashire c1867. Denis was discharged from the Army around this time and his papers say he was intending to live in Preston. However I have not found a record for Mary Ellen's birth.
Matilda Collins was born on 24/10/1875 at 6 Spring Hill St Greenock.
Hope this helps!
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Matilda - I find no record for her after the 1881 census
On your tree on Ancestry you show Matilda in Glasgow in 1891 aged 17. That Matilda is shown as b Glasgow but there is no birth on SP for any other Matilda Collins between 1873-1876
A Matilda Collins married a William C Murray in 1911 - have you checked that marriage
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The entry in the ancestry tree is a placeholder for further investigation, but now I am convinced it is not my Matilda, precisely because of your point about her place of birth.
I have checked the Collins-Murray marriage and it's not her.
I have also considered it possible that she was put in Smyllum alongside her sister but find no records. I contacted the archivist for the religious order some years back and all records prior to 1910 or so have been lost I am told. That is not to say that she did not die there and went unrecorded, but I am hoping that's not the case.
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Its a fair point you make that there is no other birth of a Matilda Collins, which is why I have kept the placeholder there. But I cant find a marriage or death for her, so tracing this individual has been difficult.
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Just in case you havent tried already
Searchimg for Matilda under Tillie or Tilly might throw up something .
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Could this be Mary Ellen's birth? Mary Collins, mother McManus, born Liverpool, 1866, March quarter, Vol 8b, page 54.
On the other hand the 1871 census (from a transcription) lists Dennis, 40, born Ireland; Margaret, 32, born Greenock; Eliza S, 10, born Ireland; Mary E, 4, born Mauritius.
Is Denis the 22-year-old private in the 95th Regiment, born Cork, Dunaway in the 1851 census in Portsea, Hampshire?
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Eliza - she married William Williamson on 7th July 1881 at St John's Greenock. He was living with the Collins family during the 1881 census and is indicated in that census as being from Ireland. After this point, I can find no further record of this couple or any children they may have had
William Williamson and Eliza Collins had
Alexander, born 22 May 1899, Belfast
Andrew, 8 November 1900, Belfast
1901 census lists at Kenbaan Street, Co Down
William Williamson, 47, engineer; Eliza, 40; Mary Ellan, 14; William, 12; Bella, 7; Andrew, 6 months; all (allegedly) born Belfast.
You can check these out, and look for the births of the older children, at https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ and http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
Denis died in Waterford on 20 July 1912.
You might even find the missing sisters there yet.
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Thank you! That Belfast record is clearly the Eliza I am looking for. That's given me a great lead - really appreciate it.
I have a record for Denis Collins on Ancestry here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/58238411/person/32042472339/facts, including various censuses, military, death. No record of his first and second family mixing. Its seems that they were completely separate.
That 1871 census transcription is erroneous, the actual document clearly lists Eliza as being born in Mauritius and Mary Ellen in England.
Denis was in the 55th regiment so I am not minded to think that the one in Portsea is the same one - the name is not uncommon in Ireland around the time.
Really appreciate your help! Still trying to better understand context for why at least one of the girls would end up in an orphanage given she wasn't short of immediate family.
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Denis was in the 55th regiment so I am not minded to think that the one in Portsea is the same one - the name is not uncommon in Ireland around the time.
No, but according to the 1901 census he was born in Co Cork, and his discharge papers say tht he was born in Dessart, near Bandon, Co Cork. Could he have transferred to the 95th? Or is there a transcription error? I wouldn't dismiss him out of hand.
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Lots of Belfast records are online s it was fairly easy to trace the Williamson family there (more children than in 1901 census) and unfortunately makes for very sad reading.
William Williamson (c1858-24 Apr.1912, 59 Kenbaan St.) m. Elizabeth Collins (c1860-13 Dec.1908, 46 Epworth St.)
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Kenbaan/1261651/ (all born Belfast)
1903- 61 Spring St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05481/4535058.pdf
(Elizabeth) https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6135.34125
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Kenbaan_Street/221742/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05367/4496874.pdf
(William) https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7927.7504
1. Mary Ellen Williamson (c1887-16 May 1903 Workhouse)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05664/4595136.pdf
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6433.21602
2. William Williamson (c1889-aft.1912)
3. Albert Williamson (8 June 1891, 48 Chatsworth St.-19 Apr.1895 Ulster Hospital)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02381/1888610.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05934/4685561.pdf
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6361.9290
Belfast Newsletter, 20 Apr.1895: FATAL ACCIDENTS. An inquiry was held into the circumstances attending the death of Albert Williamson, aged four years, who succumbed to burns yesterday morning, received on Wednesday night, at his parents' residence, 8 Calvin Street…
4. Bella Williamson (24 Sept.1893, 8 Calvin St.-20 Mar.1908, 46 Epworth St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02285/1857886.pdf (Eliza Bella)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05507/4543394.pdf (Isabella)
(Eliza Bella) https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6127.33478
?5. Rebecca Williamson (31 Dec.1895, 32 Solway St.-19 Sept.1897, 32 Solway St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02186/1827419.pdf (father- James Williamson fitter, mother- Elizabeth Jones)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05858/4660517.pdf note: listed as daughter of James Williamson engineer but informant father William Williamson
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6475.10788 (buried in same plot as Elizabeth (Collins) Williamson)
6. Jane Williamson (6 May 1897, 24 Epworth St.-1 Jan.1900, 17 Beechwood St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02132/1809865.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05774/4632465.pdf
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6511.15139
7. Alexander Williamson (22 May 1899, 42 London St.-23 Nov.1899, 42 London St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02032/1779067.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05783/4635491.pdf
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6509.14949
8. Andrew Williamson (8 Nov.1900, 7 Kenbaan St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01968/1758984.pdf
The son William was alive in 1912 but haven't found any further trace of him in Belfast. Youngest child, Andrew, not spotted in Belfast deaths & I can't see him in 1911 Irishcensus (even under initials in case in some institution)
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William born 17 Feb.1889, 40 Newcastle St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02488/1923327.pdf
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Yes, I'm starting to see all these death records - looks like pretty close to a whole large family is just wiped out. What a sad story. Thanks for all the details. This might also give some leads on where Mary Ellen and Matilda (Eliza's sisters) might have ended up. Certainly Eliza seems to have named one of her daughters after her younger sister.
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Who are listed as parents of William Williamson on marriage certificate? this might help track down sons William & Andrew. Andrew was certainly might have gone to stay with relatives as he was only 7 when his mother died and she was likely unwell a good while before that.
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Parents listed as Alexander Williamson, Stone Cutter (Deceased) and Jane Williamson (MS Giles) (deceased) - so that's probably a no go.
Fascinating that Rebecca's parents are listed so specifically as James Williamson and Elizabeth Jones, but then the informant is actually William Williamson and the child is buried with with the family. Was the registrar just bluffing his way through it?
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I think this is high probability for William Junior (died 18 October 1932 aged 43 years): https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialSearch.aspx?GraveSection=J1&GraveNumber=121&CemeteryName=City%20Cemetery%20-%20Glenalina%20Extension
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1932 Belfast directory lists 11 Station St. as Model Lodging House so no clues there.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1932.htm
William' parents married 1850-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1850/09384/5398885.pdf
Don't know how Family Search are now messing up records that used to be accurate but this reference gives place of marriage "Belfast, Belfast, Transvaal, South Africa" in the collection Ireland Civil Registration, 1845-1913 ::)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL34-3NGP
You can view the 1932 death certificate for William Williamson on GRONI's site (5 credits=£2.50)
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OK, he is listed as 47 years old at death on 18/10/32. A bachelor, labourer and the informant is A Williamson, Brother, of 3 Crossley St. That sounds like it might be Andrew.
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OK, he is listed as 47 years old at death on 18/10/32. A bachelor, labourer and the informant is A Williamson, Brother, of 3 Crossley St. That sounds like it might be Andrew.
A. Williamson not listed at that address in 1932 but 1943 directory has an Andrew Williamson at 6 Sandhill Parade-
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/alphanames1943TUVWXYZ.htm
Street page narrows down the location and gives Andrew's occupation as fitter!
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1943.htm
Still there in 1951 directory-
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1951.htm
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Andrew Williamson, fitter, still listed at 6 Sandhill Parade in 1960 directory-
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1960.htm
Found possible son who might still be alive so will send you private message with details.
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Thanks so much - Andrew Williamson, 6 Sandhill Parade died in 1970 and is recorded as being 56 years old at this point, which is considerably off from a birth year of 1900: https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=8741.6526
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Unless that death is for a son with same name
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Unless that death is for a son with same name
The correct Andrew Williamson was born 1900 (see family tree- reply #11) so he wouldn't be the father of someone born 1914.
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Just had one of those oooooh! moments. I was wondering why 10 year old Andrew was not with his Father and Brother in the 1911 census, and went to ScotsPeople and searched for him in the 1911 census in the hope that he might be staying with one of his aunties. A number of Andrew Williamsons were returned but I purchased one speculatively and it was 50 Greenfield St, Govan.
Andrew Black. Head 44 Born Stirling
Mary Ellen Black Wife 43, Born England
Elizabeth Black Dau 17 Born Lanark
Janet Black Dau 8 Born Lanark
Andrew Williamson Nephew 10 Born Ireland
Found the marriage certificate (3 June 1892) and confirms the parents.
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So now I have a very strong and intriguing hint on Matilda Collins. It's quite strange.
As per my previous post I discovered Mary Ellen Collins in Govan, now Mary Ellen Black. One of her Daughters was Janet. Janet was married on 17 July 1922 in Govan to Henry Dobbin.
Henry Dobbin lists his parents as Henry Dobbin (Confectionary Work) and MATILDA (MS COLLINS) (Deceased)
Could Henry and Janet be cousins?
I found Henry Dobbins born in Belfast in 1896 to Henry Dobbin (Confectioner) and ALICE (MS COLLINS) - not Matilda, strangely: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02153/1816737.pdf
I found the marriage of Henry and Alice (Matilda?) here in Belfast 30 Nov 1895: She was 20 at the time which is right in line with Matilda's age and gives her father's name as Adolphus Collins, which seems an unlikely name and indeed I can't find any record of an Alice being born to an Adolphus anywhere in the UK around 1875. She does give Adolphus's profession as Army though, which is consistent with Matilda's father Denis:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1895/10541/5839751.pdf
(Recall Alice was the name of Matilda's older sister who was confirmed to have died at Smyllum orphanage in June 1895, just a few months before this marriage).
All very mysterious. I am struggling to find further records of children of Henry and Alice/Matilda Dobbin, census records or records of Alice/Matilda's death in either Scotland or Ireland.
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I don't know if any of the following is relevant to the mystery or not.
There is a 25 year old Alice Dobbie in the following 1901 Ireland census return, married, birth place Scotland, with a 6 year old Belfast-born daughter named Alice:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Hanover_Street/934579/
When I tried to trace back to a birth for the daughter, the only speculative possibility I could come up with (given the story thus far), was the following illegitimate birth in 1894 for an Alice Collins, to the same named mother:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02253/1847604.pdf
When I tried to trace forward that daughter Alice to the 1911 Ireland census, the closest candidate I could find is the following 16 year old Belfast-born Alice Dobbin, boarding in Belfast:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Court/Trinity_Street/135731/
When looking for a potential marriage for the daughter Alice, I happened upon a transcript of a church record for a marriage that took place in St. Patrick's, Belfast, on 31 January 1923, the two parties were Michael McAlister of 41 Upton Street and Alice Collins of 31 Dawson Street, the witnesses were John Clarke of Monaghan and Susan Mulholland of 22 Nelson Street. What's interesting in the church record is that both parents for bride and groom were recorded. Michael's parents were recorded as Michael McAlister and Eliza English, both deceased. Alice's father's name was left blank and qualified as 'Deceased', and her mother was recorded as 'Matilda Collins Deceased'.
I also noticed the following 1900 birth in Belfast, which I'm struggling to explain away to other parents. It's for a Margaretta Dobbie, born to parents 'Harry' Dobbie and Alice 'Colins', the informant present at birth was a Margaret Sanlon - who may just have been the birth 'handywoman' in that local area (the 1901 Ireland Census shows such a person in the vicinity):
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/02010/1772331.pdf
Then there was the following 1904 death in Belfast of a 3 year old Maggie Dobby, described as the 'Daughter of Henry Dobby Watchman', it took place in Nazareth House:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1904/05621/4581272.pdf
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I feel that we are getting closer to the truth here. My interest started with the Dobbin family and I discovered early on that Henry Dobbin (b. 1896) did indeed marry his cousin Janet Allan Black in Glasgow's Govan in 1922. Their mothers were sisters Matilda Collins and Mary Ellen Collins. I eventually concluded that the 'Alice' Collins on the 1895 Dobbin/Collins marriage record and on young Henry's 1896 birth record was indeed Matilda Collins. Why she used 'Alice' as her own name I suspect we'll never know.
gaffy's contribution has been very powerful - in particular in locating the 1894 birth of young Alice Collins and tracking her through to her 1923 marriage to Michael McAlister (who btw was born on 27 Nov 1884 in Belfast). Young Alice would therefore have been the half sister of young Henry Dobbin.
In Govan in 1938, young Henry Dobbin and his wife Janet had a son named Michael McAllister Dobbin*. Up until now I had no idea where that name came from, but now it is clear. The child was named after Henry's half sister's husband. This suggests that young Henry and young Alice had kept in touch and possibly even had met.
Additionally, some of the addresses associated with young Alice, e.g. Hanover St., Trinity St. are very close to Stanhope St. where 'Alice' Collins was residing at the time of her marriage to Henry Dobbin Sr.
At first I thought that gaffy's findings just might have been put down to coincidences. However there comes a time when coincidences accumulate to a degree where coincidence must be ruled out.
Of course this does not help us establish the ultimate fates of Henry Dobbin Sr. and Matilda ('Alice') Collins. However, I now accept gaffy's findings as fact.
*I will not be satisfied until I see the birth record of Michael McAllister Dobbin which I have to wait until 6th September to do (thank you pandemic.)