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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Foxhunter on Tuesday 18 August 20 19:42 BST (UK)

Title: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Foxhunter on Tuesday 18 August 20 19:42 BST (UK)
I’ve reached a brick wall trying to find my g-g grandfather, his name is William Thomas Grace ( poss Thomas William)
I have located his marriage record to Rose Cooper in on 22/3/1886 at Holy Trinity church in Chelsea and he is named on his children’s birth, baptism and marriage records but as he never appears on a census with the rest of the family I am unable to find a date/ year of birth.
He was a groom and later coachman in domestic service so presumably lived elsewhere but I cannot find anyone that fits the bill! Rose is a widow on the 1911 census but I’m again unable to locate a relevant death record.
Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 18 August 20 22:59 BST (UK)
What's the last date you have for him?
Last child's birth?
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:45 BST (UK)
On the 1886 marriage cert he is just William Grace occ groom - father was Thomas occ coachman

Both William & Rose are just shown as full age
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:45 BST (UK)
1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:35MX-S3Z

1901: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9HH-HHB

GRACE, THOMAS  WILLIAM mmn COOPER 
GRO Reference: 1887  J Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 370

GRACE, EDITH  BERTHA mmn COOPER 
GRO Reference: 1891  J Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 372

GRACE, ALICE mmn COOPER possible death Mar 1893
GRO Reference: 1893  M Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 409

GRACE, JAMES mmn COOPER 
GRO Reference: 1894  D Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 362

Jamjar
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:47 BST (UK)
1901 Rose is aged 39 & a charwoman b Belgravia - shown as married but I suspect they are separated given her occupation
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:51 BST (UK)
1881 has a William Grace b 1868 Corsley Wood Surrey occ stableman groom.  Father Thomas has same occ
RG11 Piece 800 Folio 64 Page 25
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:55 BST (UK)
1881 has a William Grace b 1868 Corsley Wood Surrey occ stableman groom.  Father Thomas has same occ
RG11 Piece 800 Folio 64 Page 25

1881: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-GZKW

Jamjar

Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:56 BST (UK)
Possible death??

Deaths March qtr 1903   
Grace    William    35    Edmonton    3a   257


IGNORE - matches a married man in 1901
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Jamjar on Tuesday 18 August 20 23:57 BST (UK)
Birth?

GRACE, WILLIAM  THOMAS mmn WOOTTEN 
GRO Reference: 1867  J Quarter in PANCRAS  Volume 01B  Page 95

Jamjar
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 19 August 20 00:08 BST (UK)
Where have you seen him as William Thomas?

Marriage - William
Baptism of Edith Bertha - William
Baptism of Rose 1897 - William

Births June qtr 1897   
Grace    Rose  Chelsea    1a   383 mmn Cooper

Deaths Sep qtr 1897   
Grace    Rose    0    Chelsea    1a   261
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 19 August 20 00:25 BST (UK)
1891/1901/1911 - No husband on census just Rose & children
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Jamjar on Wednesday 19 August 20 00:52 BST (UK)
1881 has a William Grace b 1868 Corsley Wood Surrey occ stableman groom.  Father Thomas has same occ
RG11 Piece 800 Folio 64 Page 25

1881: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-GZKW

Jamjar

Jun 1865 Newport P. 3a 690
GRACE Thomas
MORRIS Emma

Death:

GRACE, EMMA  45 
GRO Reference: 1889  D Quarter in REIGATE  Volume 02A  Page 96

1871: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB6P-2HX

GRACE, ALICE mmn MORRIS 
GRO Reference: 1865  D Quarter in NEWPORT PAGNEL UNION  Volume 03A  Page 497
1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3YWK-T6Z

GRACE, WILLIAM mmn MORRIS 
GRO Reference: 1868  J Quarter in TICEHURST  Volume 02B  Page 87

GRACE, GEORGINA mmn MORRIS 
GRO Reference: 1870  S Quarter in SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE  Volume 01A  Page 303

GRACE, JAMES mmn MORRISS
GRO Reference: 1872  D Quarter in REIGATE UNION  Volume 02A  Page 154
1901: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9X2-B8P

GRACE, FRANK mmn MORRIS 
GRO Reference: 1875  J Quarter in REIGATE UNION  Volume 02A  Page 153
1901: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSF4-38H

Jamjar
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 19 August 20 08:13 BST (UK)
Baptism of William at Wadhurst
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DT83-KP7
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Foxhunter on Wednesday 19 August 20 09:11 BST (UK)
Wow, thank you everyone! I’ll try and answer all the questions.

The last trace of him is on the baptism of daughter Rose in 1897, his wife Rose is married in 1901 census but widowed in 1911, she and the children end up in the workhouse a number of times after 1901, as I’ve been unable to locate a likely death record around that time I suspected he may have left rather than died?
 
On Roses death certificate in 1919 she is described as widow of William Thomas, coachman in domestic service, he is also William Thomas on one of the children’s marriage certificates but Thomas William on his son Thomas’ marriage certificate ( he is also variously known as William Thomas or Thomas William)

 William Grace b 1868 of ticehurst was my chief suspect for a while, the fathers name and occupation matches that on Williams marriage certificate and he also lived briefly in the same area of Chelsea in 1871 census. It would mean William was only 18 at marriage but I guess this could be why they married by licence? I’m sure I then discounted him but cannot now remember for what reason?
 
Why cannot I find him on any censuses to confirm it’s the right one? This man has lost me so many hours!!
 

Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: jonwarrn on Wednesday 19 August 20 09:33 BST (UK)
Don't forget the 1903 Chelsea settlement exam of Rose Grace!
Age 40
Edith B Grace, 11, James Grace, 7
Wife of Wm Grace
Deserted 2½ years
Husband a coachman, 11 years at Sydenham, General Knight is mentioned.

Brief second write up/exam just a few pages later
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Foxhunter on Wednesday 19 August 20 09:44 BST (UK)
Thanks jonw65! I’ve never found that! Gosh looks like another day re- investigating for me!😩
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Wednesday 19 August 20 09:50 BST (UK)
William in 1891 is at RG12; 524;  35; 5 in Sydenham;  - servant/groom, b c1869, pob unknown. Enumerated with a Barnes family. Address - The Stables, Horner Grange

Says he's single
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Foxhunter on Wednesday 19 August 20 10:07 BST (UK)
Thank you!
I might have finally had a breakthrough! This site is amazing! I wish I had posted on here before! 😘
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: jonwarrn on Wednesday 19 August 20 10:44 BST (UK)
I'll add the second one! Feb 1903
Good luck!
Title: Re: Brick wall help! William Thomas Grace
Post by: Foxhunter on Wednesday 19 August 20 11:05 BST (UK)
Thank you so much, I thought I had searched everything! He was obviously a total scoundrel!