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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Buffnut453 on Tuesday 18 August 20 14:45 BST (UK)
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I have another Ireland problem that hopefully someone can help me overcome.
One of my Great-Great-Grandfathers was a James Gamble who was born in Ireland but moved to St.Helens, Lancashire, sometime before 1841. His year of birth is incredibly vague, as shown by the following records and the corresponding identified birth year:
• 1841 Census lists age as 25 so born in 1816
• 1849 Marriage Certificate lists age as 32 so born in 1817
• 1851 Census lists age as 31 so born in 1820
• 1861 Census lists age as 49 so born in 1812
• 1869 Death Certificate lists age as 57 so born in 1812
The 1841 Census records that James worked as a chemical labourer (St.Helens was well-known for its chemical industries) but he later took ownership of a 'flat', a type of canal barge, and worked on the Sankey Canal that ran between St.Helens and Widnes. James married Hannah Ellis in 1849 at St.Thomas' Church, Eccleston (Hannah's father was also a boatman, and Hannah was living at Widnes Dock at the time of the marriage).
James' marriage certificate identifies his father as Baptist Gamble, a factory manager. I can find no record of any birth of a James Gamble with a father Baptist Gamble, nor can I find any records for a Baptist Gamble living anywhere in the UK in the timeframe in question. From what I can gather, there seem to be a few Baptist Gambles originating from County Fermanagh. Many of the Gambles from that area seem quite well-to-do, indeed there's a well-known Gamble family in St.Helens who originated from there. However, "my" James Gamble was illiterate (signing "X" on his marriage certificate) so it seems he came from much humbler stock.
A few other potential clues came from likely relatives recorded in the England Censuses. In the 1841 Census, James is living with a nephew, also James, aged 3, who was born in Manchester. It seems that the younger James' father was a Joseph Gamble because Joseph and son James (the younger) appear together in the 1851 Census. Joseph is listed as a widower aged 32 (giving a birth year of 1819) and was born in Ireland. Joseph's birth year is repeated in his 1881 Census record. His death certificate in 1889 gives an age of 75, so a birth year of 1814.
The younger James Gamble appears again living with the older James Gamble's family, together with a niece of James the elder, named "Sahrit Crop", listed as a 16 year-old house servant who was born in Manchester. All attempts to find any formal records for Joseph, James the younger, or "Sahrit Crop" have failed. The closest I have come is a possible marriage of Joseph to a Mary Livesley in 1835 but that's far from certain (plus, if his age from the 1851 Census is correct, he'd be rather young to be marrying in 1835).
Is there any way to identify the actual father of James Gamble (the elder)? Since I don't even know where to start looking within Ireland, it seems an impossible task given the relative paucity of online resources.
Any and all help would be HUGELY appreciated!
Many thanks in advance,
Mark
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...... a niece of James the elder, named "Sahrit Crop", listed as a 16 year-old house servant who was born in Manchester.
The surname is CROSS and the first name is perhaps supposed to be Sarah with the letters mixed up.
It isn't a lack of online records that is the problem but a lack of any records at all when you get back to that period in Ireland. What religion were they?
Debra :)
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Hi Dundee,
It could be Sarah Cross...although it's quite a mix-up. :)
James Gamble appears to have been Protestant. He married in a CofE church and all his children (who survived into adulthood) also married in CofE churches in St.Helens.
Cheers,
Mark
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The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html
Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html
Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
Hi Sinann,
Unfortunately, the only records I have uncovered all relate to his time in England, and they just give Ireland as the location. About the best option I can come up with is trying to work through County Fermanagh records but that will be prohibitively time-consuming if they aren't digitized (not to mention, getting there from Germany would be problemmatic).
Kind regards,
Mark
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previous topic for reference
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=816780.0
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have you looked at this
Pedigree of the Gambles of Fermanagh [microform]
Gamble, David, 1823-1907; Gamble, J. W. (John William), 1798?-1873
https://ia800303.us.archive.org/1/items/cihm_34171/cihm_34171.pdf
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have you Googled "baptist gamble fermanaugh"
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other than that, it might be a matter of waiting and slogging through them, as mentioned:
The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html
Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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regarding "Many of the Gambles from that area seem quite well-to-do, indeed there's a well-known Gamble family in St.Helens who originated from there."
The name Baptist ran in the family, so his father might not have been from the well-to-do branch.
Or he was named after one of the well-to-do branch, giving him high hopes, something to work for, or maybe hoping for a bit of inheritance from the man he was named after :)
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Couple of probate abstracts:
The Will of Baptist Gamble late of Graan County Fermanagh Esquire who died 1 December 1890 at same place was proved at Armagh by Baptist Gamble M.D. and Thomas Elliott Architect both of Enniskillen said County the Executors.
The will itself is on-line on the PRONI wills site and Dr Baptist Gamble is the deceased’s nephew.
Gamble Baptist William of 2 Elmwood Terrace Lisburn Road Belfast retired railway official died 10 December 1928 at Enniskillen Probate Belfast 5 April to Mabel Gamble the widow. Effects £732 8s. 7
The above family was Methodist in 1901 but would have been Church of Ireland in the early 1800s (Methodism didn’t really get going in Ireland as a separate denomination till the 1820s, and even then many Methodists continued to use the Church of Ireland for baptisms and especially marriages for many years after that):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor/Tates_Avenue/966600/
Baptist Gamble is not a common name. There’s only 1 in the 1901 & 1911 Irish censuses, so you might expect them all to be related.
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There are a few Gamble burials in Old Rossory cemetery at the link below, note the reference that further detail on the family is in volume 3 of William Copeland Trimble's 'History of Enniskillen' (pages 1124-1125):
https://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/fermanagh/cemeteries/old-rossory-cemetery-1.txt
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previous topic for reference
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=816780.0
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have you looked at this
Pedigree of the Gambles of Fermanagh [microform]
Gamble, David, 1823-1907; Gamble, J. W. (John William), 1798?-1873
https://ia800303.us.archive.org/1/items/cihm_34171/cihm_34171.pdf
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have you Googled "baptist gamble fermanaugh"
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other than that, it might be a matter of waiting and slogging through them, as mentioned:
The COI records will be online at some point the project was started a while back.
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/09/church-of-ireland-parish-registers-to.html
Meanwhile if you can figure out where he was from this list tells what registers survive, where they are held and if online
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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regarding "Many of the Gambles from that area seem quite well-to-do, indeed there's a well-known Gamble family in St.Helens who originated from there."
The name Baptist ran in the family, so his father might not have been from the well-to-do branch.
Or he was named after one of the well-to-do branch, giving him high hopes, something to work for, or maybe hoping for a bit of inheritance from the man he was named after :)
The Pedigree of the Gambles of Fermanagh is well-known where I come from as it includes Sir David Gamble who donated the Gamble Institute in St.Helens for the betterment of the population. My Mum clings onto a family legend that Sir David came to open a school near where her Grandparents lived and came over for tea, starting the rumour that we were somehow related to him. However, intense scrutiny of the available records has revealed nothing.
Given that the Gambles of Fermanagh were clearly educated going back to the 17th century, I have a hard time believing that my Great-Great-Granddad, who was illiterate, is in any way related. Even if one of the offspring was a black sheep, I find it hard to believe that the ability to read would be lost within a generation or two. I suppose stranger things have happened but it certainly would be a little odd.
The other snag with the genealogy as listed is the complete lack of any viable candidates for Baptist Gamble, the father of James Gamble. I'm aware of a Baptist Gamble who drowned in 1839 who might be a candidate but, alas, I can't find any confirmation that he was married or had children.
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in case something helps
starting in 1588 listed in family trees in Genes Reunited see https://www.GenesReunited.co.uk
Josias Gamble Ireland. ... treeholder Stephen
Solomon Gamble County Fermanagh, Ir... treeholder Stephen
Josias Gamble 1588 Unknown ... treeholder Christopher
Solomon Gamble 1628 County Fermanagh, Ir... treeholder Christopher
John Gamble 1755 Enniskillen, Fermana... treeholder Derek
David Gamble 1758 fermanagh ... treeholder Rachael
1723 Baptist Gamble listed in family trees in genesrenited
https://www.GenesReunited.co.uk ree/results/gamble/baptist?memberkey=0&yearofbirthrange=0
Baptist Gamble 1723 Ireland. ... treeholder Stephen
Baptist Gamble 1723 ... treeholder Christopher
Baptist Gamble 1723 Ireland. ... treeholder Lillian
1796 Flax Growers of Ireland https://www.failteromhat.com/flax/fermanagh.php
Gamble David Derryvullan Fermanagh
Gamble Maurice Rossorry Fermanagh
Gamble William Derryvullan Fermanagh
1834 Tithe-Applotment-Books http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/fermanagh/tithe-applotment-books/parish-of-cleenish.php
Gamble, Baptist, Esq.-Townland: Mullygarry Year: 1834-Cleenish-Fermanagh
Gamble, John-Townland: Coolyermour Year: 1834-Cleenish-Fermanagh
Gamble, Mr. Townland: Maybawn Year: 1834-Cleenish-Fermanagh
if you search wikitree https://www.wikitree.com/ wikitree under James Gamble you have 204 entries, then make tour own search for Ireland as place of birth , you have 16 matches. you are searching births between 1805 and 1821 the nearest is
James Gamble 1825 Magheralin, County Down, Ireland - managed by Allan Stuart
ancestryireland .com has births you need to buy credits to see more detail the fathers name is listed in each entry
James Gamble 1813 Arthur Antrim
James Gamble 1816 David Antrim
James Gamble 1817 Samuel Antrim
James Gamble 1822 Andrew Down
James Gamble 1826 James Down
also try emerald ancestors
good luck
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in case something helps
starting in 1588 listed in family trees in Genes Reunited see https://www.GenesReunited.co.uk
Josias Gamble Ireland. ... treeholder Stephen
Solomon Gamble County Fermanagh, Ir... treeholder Stephen
Josias Gamble 1588 Unknown ... treeholder Christopher
Solomon Gamble 1628 County Fermanagh, Ir... treeholder Christopher
John Gamble 1755 Enniskillen, Fermana... treeholder Derek
David Gamble 1758 fermanagh ... treeholder Rachael
1723 Baptist Gamble listed in family trees in genesrenited
https://www.GenesReunited.co.uk ree/results/gamble/baptist?memberkey=0&yearofbirthrange=0
Baptist Gamble 1723 Ireland. ... treeholder Stephen
Baptist Gamble 1723 ... treeholder Christopher
Baptist Gamble 1723 Ireland. ... treeholder Lillian
1796 Flax Growers of Ireland https://www.failteromhat.com/flax/fermanagh.php
Gamble David Derryvullan Fermanagh
Gamble Maurice Rossorry Fermanagh
Gamble William Derryvullan Fermanagh
1834 Tithe-Applotment-Books http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/fermanagh/tithe-applotment-books/parish-of-cleenish.php
Gamble, Baptist, Esq.-Townland: Mullygarry Year: 1834-Cleenish-Fermanagh
Gamble, John-Townland: Coolyermour Year: 1834-Cleenish-Fermanagh
Gamble, Mr. Townland: Maybawn Year: 1834-Cleenish-Fermanagh
if you search wikitree https://www.wikitree.com/ wikitree under James Gamble you have 204 entries, then make tour own search for Ireland as place of birth , you have 16 matches. you are searching births between 1805 and 1821 the nearest is
James Gamble 1825 Magheralin, County Down, Ireland - managed by Allan Stuart
ancestryireland .com has births you need to buy credits to see more detail the fathers name is listed in each entry
James Gamble 1813 Arthur Antrim
James Gamble 1816 David Antrim
James Gamble 1817 Samuel Antrim
James Gamble 1822 Andrew Down
James Gamble 1826 James Down
also try emerald ancestors
good luck
Many thanks BallyaltikilliganG...that's certainly a lot of info to go through.
I'm taking an interest in Baptist Gamble who was buried in Old Rossorry Graveyard in 1839. I'm guessing he's the Baptist Gamble Esq in Mullygarry, Cleenish, in 1834 per your list of records. Looking at various online records related to him, it appears his father's name was Moses Gamble and he had an elder brother named Samuel.
He's listed as having a son, John, born in 1791 but there's no record of his wife or of that first marriage. He apparently married a second time to a Miss MacPherson in 1830.
Clearly there are a lot of holes in the records, and he probably had more children. However, he seems a likely candidate to be James Gamble's father. Now to see if I can uncover any additional records that help build the picture.
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keep going Buffnut453
good luck Bally....G
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keep going Buffnut453
good luck Bally....G
Many thanks...now to see if I can locate any parish records. Not holding my breath, though. :(
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PRONI has church guideto records downloadable here is an incomplete copy as a starter.
its missing mirvfiche numbers etc
C.I. Cleenish (Clogher diocese) [Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]
Baptisms, 1886-1947; marriages, 1845-1934; burials,
1886-1922.
MIC1/224
Vestry minutes, 1823-; registers of vestrymen, 1886-;
preachers’ books, 1896-; Sustentation Fund account
book, 1893-.
R.C. Cleenish (Clogher diocese)
Baptisms, 1835-9 and 1859-81; marriages, 1866-81.
[See also under ENNISKILLEN as part of the parish
forms part of the Roman Catholic parish of Enniskillen]
C.I. Lisbellaw (Clogher diocese) [Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]
Baptisms, 1877-; marriages, 1845-; burials, 1877-; vestry minutes, 1827-; registers of vestrymen, 18701930;
preachers’ books, 1889-.
In local custody
C.I. Mullaghdun (Clogher diocese) [Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]
Baptisms, 1819-36 and 1878-99; marriages, 1819-34
and 1845-1921; burials, 1819-35 and 1878-1927. MIC1/245
Vestry minutes, 1871-; registers of vestrymen, 191834;
preachers’ books, 1905-.
In local custody
M. Letterbreen Enniskillen Circuit records may include baptisms, 1823-1953, and marriages, 1864-1906,quarterly meetings, 1877-93.
for Letterbreen; circuit schedule book, 1866-80; minutes of quarterly meetings, 1877-98.
MIC1E/15
M. Lisbellaw [Primitive Wesleyan Methodists] Baptisms, 1872-8.
MIC1E/9
M. Lisbellaw [Wesleyan Methodists] Baptisms, 1823-78; marriages, 1866-70; circuit schedule book, 1866-80.
MIC1E/15
M. Lisbellaw (post 1878) Baptisms, 1879-1953; marriages, 1891-1937; circuit schedule book, 1880-93.
MIC1E/10, 15
P. Lisbellaw Baptisms, 1851-1984; marriages, 1846-1936.
MIC1P/284
MIC1
dontforget parish borders are obsolete if you can walk to church ine neighbouring parish th
good luck
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Resurrecting this old thread because I just stumbled across an interesting possible clue. On a whim I googled Baptist Gamble and one results was this link:
https://www.dib.ie/biography/gamble-josias-or-josiah-christopher-a3417
It includes this text regarding Josias (or Josiah) Christopher Gamble:
In February 1804 he resigned from his congregation and spent some time in Belfast. A textile business in Dublin was owned by Baptist Gamble (probably a relative), and Josias seems to have moved to Dublin to establish a chemical manufactory in Meath St. about 1806, and in new premises in Lurgan St. from 1815; he produced chlorine-based bleaching powder, sulphuric acid, and also alum, used as a mordant in the textile industry.
The marriage record for my Great-Great Grandfather, James Gamble, lists the occupation of his father, Baptist Gamble, as a factory manager. I started wondering if "my" Baptist Gamble was a manager at a textile factory.
FindMyPast has a record set of 19th century directories from Ireland which lists a number of records for a Baptist Gamble in the early 1800s in the textile industry. Records include:
- 1802 - Robert (perhaps mistaken entry for Baptist?) Gamble, Flax Dresser of 15 Francis Street in Dublin
- 1803 - Baptist Gamble, Flax Dresser of 15 Francis Street in Dublin
- 1804 - Baptist Gamble, Flax Dresser of 15 Francis Street in Dublin
- 1805 - Baptist Gamble, Flax and Cotton Manufacturer of 15 Francis Street in Dublin
- 1806 - Baptist Gamble, Flax and Cotton Manufacturer of 15 Francis Street in Dublin
Baptist Gamble disappears from the register in 1808 (there's no record for 1807). Josiah Gamble appears in the register in 1806. Perhaps Baptist started work in Josiah's chemical factory?
Interestingly, there are a number of other Gambles listed, including James (Stonecutter), Samuel (Linen Draper), and William (Merchant). All these names are common to children of "my" James Gamble.
This is all highly tenuous and still doesn't provide any provable family relationships. However, it might be the starting clue to help overcome this blockage in my family tree.
I'd welcome any ideas others may have to help me explore this possible clue.
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The business name of Samuel Gamble, linen draper, is listed as "Samuel and Son" of High Street, Dublin. There's a Christening record for a Samuel Gamble, son of Samuel and Mary Gamble, who was born on 19 March 1772. The family were Quakers, lived on High Street, Dublin, and the elder Samuel Gamble was a linen merchant.
Now to see if this family is somehow connected either to Baptist Gamble or Josiah Gamble.
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From a listing of names entered in Gilbert's Calendar of Ancient Records of Dublin that I have compiled there are references to Piers,Richard , Samuel, & Rev. Thomas Gambles. If you would like the references I can supply them upon request
FelixQuaxer
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From a listing of names entered in Gilbert's Calendar of Ancient Records of Dublin that I have compiled there are references to Piers,Richard , Samuel, & Rev. Thomas Gambles. If you would like the references I can supply them upon request
FelixQuaxer
That would be splendid, please. Looking at an old map of Dublin (circa 1837) shows Samuel Gamble & Son's premises on High Street, Dublin, must have been quite close to those of Baptist Gamble on Francis Street. Equally, the chemical business that Josias Christopher Gamble established on Meath Street was also very close at hand, within a few hundred metres.
The fact that Baptist Gamble and Samuel Gamble (& Son) were both involved in the fabric trade may be coincidental but it's more likely that they were related. Frustratingly, I've been unable to find any suitable records to confirm a family connection between Samuel, Baptist and Josias Christopher. Hopefully, other details may strengthen the likelihood of a family connection.
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Buffnut 453
Herewith the references in Gilbert's CARD Vol . Number/Page
Piers 17/227-228
Richard 4/92
Samuel 19/191
Rev. Thomas 14/465
There is also a reference to a Mr Gamble at 13/494. The relevance of all/any of these I must leave to you.
Happy Hunting
FelixQuxer
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Many thanks, Felix. Please excuse my ignorance but where can I access Gilbert's CARD? It's not a record set I've come across before.
In another interesting note, the Dublin Equity Exchequer Bill Books (1826-1827) mentions both a Baptist Gamble and Josias Christopher Gamble in the same record. I'm struggling to interpret the document from which I've captured the 2 sections that mention Baptist Gamble below. Any help to understand what the document covers would be hugely appreciated.
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Buffnut
Thank you. The Calendar of Ancient Records of Dublin was published in 19 vols. from 1889 -1944 and contains most of the surviving municipal records for the years 1169-1841.
As I am unaware of your location any statement of location might be irrelevant. National Libraries in these islands and many university libraries in the English speaking world stock them. There is an international catalogue which list such stockists . Unfortunately its title escapes me at the moment but I know that it can be viewed on the internet . Perhaps a librarian or kind reader might intervene.
Many reputable firms advertise reprint copies currently.
The set never was blessed with an index . Consequently, I compiled a listing of the Dublin material.
If you require anything further from the listing just come back
FelixQuaxer
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Thanks Felix. I'll head to my local library to see if they have the CARD volumes.
Do you know what the Dublin Equity Exchequer Books covered? I'm struggling to decypher the handwriting from the entries I found regarding Baptist Gamble.