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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Poole Conundrum on Monday 17 August 20 16:59 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I have been doing my family tree for years and quite well versed in my area (North West) so not sure if this is due to family being out of area that I am struggling but could really use a 2nd pair of eyes on the situation.
Annie Chant (b. 1881 Manchester) has on the baptism/census/wedding certificate her dad as
Henry Chant (b? Somerset) ''married'' to
Mary Ann Poole (b. 1843 Long Ashton, Somerset) - On the census she is often listed as 'Mary Ann P Chant' or Mary Anne Poole Chant' leading me to believe they married.
They had children in somerset & Gloucester prior to coming to Manchester.
The 2 children they had in Manchester (Annie & Florence) both have mothers maiden name as Butcher - not Poole.
I cannot find a marriage for Mary Ann Poole & Henry Chant
or Mary Ann Butcher & Mr Poole (prior to marrying Chant)
I ordered Mary Ann Chant's death cert. and it doesn't list a maiden name.
The Chant children have all been baptized as young children rather than baby/toddler once they moved to Manchester (unsure if this means anything in the grand scheme of things - just unusual to not baptize early on)
At a total loss as to who Annie Chant's parents actually are...or why they would move so far to Manchester.
A rough guess would be Mary Ann Butcher married Mr Poole, had children and then married Chant - changing her childrens surnames to suit.
Does anyone have any ideas or a point in the right direction?
TIA
???
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Marriages Jun qtr 1873
CHANT Henry
POOLE Mary Ann
Clifton 6a 274
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Henry Chant - Father William Chant
Marital status Widowed
Marriage 21 May 1873 at St Andrew, Clifton, Bristol
Mary Ann Poole - Single - Father William Poole
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Image for the marriage is available on Ancestry - details as given by rosie99. Both fathers given as William, and both Labourer. J and Margaret Ralph are the witnesses.
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CHANT, DAVID mmn POOLE
GRO Reference: 1873 Dec Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 71
CHANT, SUSAN BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1876 March Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 61
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Thankyou for the quick responses!
I'm glad you've been drawn to the same thing I have as I've seen that marriage between Poole & Chant before but can't figure out how the 'Butcher' element comes into it so was reluctant to say with certainty this is them. Especially as he is listed as widowed - seems strange she wouldn't be listed as the same if previously a Butcher.
The maiden name on Annie Chant's birth certificate definitely is Butcher - however on the census she is the daughter of Mary Ann P Chant and Hy Chant (assume this is Henry).
CHANT, DAVID mmn POOLE
GRO Reference: 1873 Dec Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 71
CHANT, SUSAN BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1876 March Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 61
I'm unsure what these would relate to?
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CHANT, DAVID mmn POOLE
GRO Reference: 1873 Dec Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 71
CHANT, SUSAN BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1876 March Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 61
I'm unsure what these would relate to?
They are their birth registrations from the GRO website.
Registrations for other children
William in 1877 MMN Poole
Florence in 1880 MMN Butcher
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CHANT, DAVID mmn POOLE
GRO Reference: 1873 Dec Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 71
CHANT, SUSAN BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1876 March Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 61
I'm unsure what these would relate to?
They are their birth registrations from the GRO website.
Registrations for other children
William in 1877 MMN Poole
Florence in 1880 MMN Butcher
Sorry I see what you mean now. That just deepens my confusion as the maiden name flits between Poole and Butcher. So as she was 'single' and not widowed on the suspected marriage certificate why would she be switching between 2 names?
Perhaps her mother was remarried and is using a step-fathers name?
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Perhaps you need to purchase one of the birth certificates - your choice which one - to see what it says. :-\
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I have Annie's birth certificate which states mothers maiden name as Butcher with no amendments or asterisk to indicate anything unusual. I suppose I should order David's as he has maiden name 'Poole' to see if there is any difference on that.
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1851
William Buchers 30 Labourer bn Wraxall, Somerset
Caroline Buchers 33 bn Barrow Gurney, Somerset
Mary Ann Buchers Dtr 8 bn Long Ashton, Somerset, England
Jane Buchers Dtr 6 bn Long Ashton, Somerset, England
William Buchers Son 2 bn Long Ashton, Somerset, England
BUTCHERS, WILLIAM POOL
GRO Reference: 1848 Dec Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 74
ADDED Census reference
HO107
Piece 1946
Folio 26
Page 4
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Marriages Jun qtr 1843
BUTCHERS William
POOL Caroline
Bristol 11 167
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POOL, MARY ANN - (No mothers maiden surname on index)
GRO Reference: 1842 Sept Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 11 Page 75
If this is her then she was born as Pool but brought up as Butcher (and variants)
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That would definitely make sense. I have her as 1843 on the census's but is only approx.
Would make sense that she is using her mothers and (step) fathers surname interchangeably if he came into her life at such a young age.
You've been such a fantastic help and have given me lots to look at! (and certificates to order ;D)
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The children Jane & William were baptised at Long Ashton, I can't see anything for Mary though.
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Just a thought. The maiden name given on the children's birth registrations may depend on who registered each of the births. For example, mother may have said Butcher, father may have said Poole.
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Thinking about it - on the suspected wedding certificate for Henry Chant & Mary Ann Poole, it lists her dad as William Poole. I assume then this would mean her mother (Caroline) was married to William Poole prior to William Butcher then?
Even more confusing with everyone having similar given names :P
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Just a thought. The maiden name given on the children's birth registrations may depend on who registered each of the births. For example, mother may have said Butcher, father may have said Poole.
That's a thought! Could be something so simple and we would never really know what was happening back then, only speculation.
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Gosh I am driving myself mad with this one now!
On the census' I have a
Emily Poole Chant (1869)
Caroline Poole Chant (1870)
Mary Jane Poole Chant (1872)
All born before the suspected wedding of Henry Chant and Mary Ann Poole.
As Henry was married before these could be children from his previous marriage (and all of these children are baptized later once the family move to Manchester).
'Caroline' would appear to be a family name of Mary Ann Pool/Butcher (her mother) so could be relevant there.
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CHANT, EMILY BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in AXBRIDGE Volume 05C Page 602
CHANT, CAROLINE BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 05C Page 751
CHANT, MARY JANE BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 68
Maybe Henry was living with Mary Ann but wasn't free to marry until 1873?
ADDED : Maybe for the back burner?
Marriages Mar 1851
Brown Jane Wincanton 10 821
Burge Hannah Wincanton 10 821
Chant Henry Wincanton 10 821
Hooper William Wincanton 10 821
Mitchel Ann Wincanton 10 821
Ancestry shows marriage on 16 Feb 1851, Henry's father William labourer, Henry made mark.
CHANT, JOSEPH MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 10 Page 577
CHANT, ANN MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 511
CHANT, SUSAN MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 576
CHANT, WILLIAM MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 577
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CHANT, EMILY BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in AXBRIDGE Volume 05C Page 602
CHANT, CAROLINE BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 05C Page 751
CHANT, MARY JANE BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 68
Maybe Henry was living with Mary Ann but wasn't free to marry until 1873?
ADDED : Maybe for the back burner?
Marriages Mar 1851
Brown Jane Wincanton 10 821
Burge Hannah Wincanton 10 821
Chant Henry Wincanton 10 821
Hooper William Wincanton 10 821
Mitchel Ann Wincanton 10 821
Ancestry shows marriage on 16 Feb 1851, Henry's father William labourer, Henry made mark.
CHANT, JOSEPH MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 10 Page 577
CHANT, ANN MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 511
CHANT, SUSAN MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 576
CHANT, WILLIAM MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 577
It gets weirder and weirder each time someone finds something ;D
I know on Henry & Mary Ann's wedding certificate there is approx 20years between them, so possibly waiting for existing spouse to pass away prior to marrying.
Would explain why all the older children were baptized with the surname 'Poole Chant' at a much later date in Manchester. Possibly finally had opportunity to make it 'proper'.
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But I can't find that Henry & Ann or children in 1861 [yet] so don't know if Ann was alive then.
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Thinking about it - on the suspected wedding certificate for Henry Chant & Mary Ann Poole, it lists her dad as William Poole. I assume then this would mean her mother (Caroline) was married to William Poole prior to William Butcher then?
Even more confusing with everyone having similar given names :P
It was not unusual for a child in this situation to invent a father with the same first name as the man their mother married
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This could be Caroline’s bpt mother Dinah Pool
Baptism 27 Jun 1819
Denomination Anglican
Place Barrow Gurney
Is this Caroline Pool on 1841 c, single woman crossed out for Caroline & B*d for William
Place Named Arch Grove, Long Ashton, Bedminster
William Say Somerset
Mary Say Female Somerset
Charles Say Somerset, England
Caroline Pool Somerset, England
William Pool Somerset, England
Thomas Smith -
HO107 Piece 944 Folio 32 Page 22
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Marriages Jun qtr 1843
BUTCHERS William
POOL Caroline
Bristol 11 167
Marriage 03 Apr 1843 Bristol, St Mary Redcliffe
Caroline Pool, single
William Butchers Single father John
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Henry Chant Single Father William, labourer
Spouse Ann Mitchel Single
Denomination Anglican
Residence Henstridge
Marriage 16 Feb 1851 By Banns
First witness George ?
Second witness George Crocker
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https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58184547e93790eca3c87f2e/henry-chant-baptism-somerset-henstridge-1827-12-23?locale=en
Possible 1827 bpt Henry Chant father William labourer mother Susan
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Can you find the 1861 for Henry/Ann/children Chants, Ladyhawk?
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Can you find the 1861 for Henry/Ann/children Chants, Ladyhawk?
Apologies Josey didn't notice that you had given the details of Henry & Ann's marriage ::)
I had a look last night and this morning but found nothing ??? Found him on 1841 census I think - not sure if details were posted
Plott, Henstridge, Wincanton, Somerset
William Chant Ag Labourer
George Chant
Henry Chant
Emily Chant
William Chant
David Chant
Hannah Eavis
James Eavis
1841 census HO107 Piece 945 Folio 31 Page 24
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No worries Ladyhawk. No we didn't have the 1841.
This could be Joseph's marriage but cannot find details online
Marriages Jun 1885
Chant Joseph Wincanton 5c 812
Gillett Eliza Wincanton 5c 812
But doesn't get us any further.
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This could be Joseph's marriage but cannot find details online
Marriages Jun 1885
Chant Joseph Wincanton 5c 812
Gillett Eliza Wincanton 5c 812
Somerset marriage index
Joseph's father named as William, labourer, age 24 (1861), porter
But doesn't get us any further.
No it doesn't but always worth looking may discover a clue.......
Henry Chant & Ann married 16 Feb 1851 have they been found on 1851 census ?
census night Sunday 30 March 1851
Very strange that Henry, Ann & family can’t been found on 1861 census ???
Although no relationship given on 1841 census presuming that his brother is named David Chant he married 6 Jul 1858 age 24, labourer a Susan Coffin age 18 , his father named William Chant labourer
D & S can be found living at Bowden Hill Street Henstridge in 1861
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Could this be them?
1851 Henstridge
Henry Chant Head 30 Sawyer Henstridge
Ann Chant Wife 27 Glover(poss) Henstridge
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Maybe this baptism, but it’s the only one of the children I can see, so maybe not.
Henstridge 08/06/1851
Joe (?) Chant parents Henry and Ann Henstridge Sawyer
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Maybe this baptism, but it’s the only one of the children I can see, so maybe not.
Henstridge 08/06/1851
Joe (?) Chant parents Henry and Ann Henstridge Sawyer
Josey posted this birth entry
CHANT, JOSEPH MITCHELL
1851 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 10 Page 577
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That 1851 [well found Lily M] HO107; Piece: 1931; Folio: 372; Page: 21
Maybe but said to be Unm & different occupation
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1650; Folio: 58; Page: 2 Henstridge
Henry Chant 41 Unm Hair dresser born Wincanton
ADDED: If Ann was a glover, maybe Henry learned the trade too?
Admin with will 1919 Henry Chant otherwise Richardson of 13 Stars Lane Yeovil leather dresser to Thomas Hoare leather dresser £201 6s.
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Maybe but different occupation
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1650; Folio: 58; Page: 2 Henstridge
Henry Chant 41 Unm Hair dresser born Wincanton
Looks as if the above Henry is on 1851 census with his mother
Ann Chant Head Widow Laundress Pauper Wincanton, Somerset
Henry Chant Son Hairdresser Wincanton, Somerset
HO107 Piece 1931 Folio 541 Page 4
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OK not the same Henry. Good to eliminate.
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I wonder if those Chant/Mitchell registrations were the children of this couple.
Marriage Henstridge - 1847
George Chant labourer father William a labourer
Fanny Mitchell (no father given)
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Oh it gets complicated ::). Could be - but
1851 HO107; Piece: 1929; Folio: 236; Page: 8;
George Chant 33
Ann Chant 32
Benjamin Chant 8
Joseph Chant 3 [so born ca 1847
Nathaniel Chant 1
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1640; Folio: 97; Page: 9; Middle Chinnock
George Chant 43 ag lab
Ann Chant 42 leather glover
Joseph Chant 13 ag lab
Nathaniel Chant 11
Fanny Chant 2
Wish my knowledge of Somerset geography was better!
And the 1851 Joseph [baptised Joe] was definitely Henry and Ann's.
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Baptisms in Henstridge parents George and Fanny Chant
Henry 14/06/1850
Charles - ditto -
Ann 25/12/1852
William 19/04/1857
Susan 27/071858 (age 3 years)
I think this is them. Fanny died in 1858 and George remarried. (Are we supposing that George Chant and Fanny Mitchell are siblings of Henry Chant and Ann Mitchell?)
1861 Henstridge
George Chant head 33 Ag.lab Henstridge
Sarah wife 23
Charles 13
Henry 11
Ann 9
Susan 7
Henrietta 5
Following through on the previous family mentioned, living in Middle Chinnock, their marriage came to a gruesome end in 1871, so glad they don’t appear to be related.
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Oh my gosh! I was away for a few hours and it's got so big - I wasn't expecting such a fantastic response.
So from this search are you saying the first lot of children (Joe, Emily, Caroline & Mary Jane) belong to Henry Chant & Ann Mitchell?
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No it was Joseph 1851, Ann 1852, Susan 1854 & William 1857 but until we find any of them on the 1861...we're not sure. BUT Lily M [reply #39] found baptism for Ann, Susan & William as children of George & Fanny so that only leaves Jo[e]seph as definitely Henry & Ann's. We're a bit like terriers here on rootschat .
Good thinking LilyM - now to prove it .....
ADDED: Maybe showing Henry & George are brothers? As well as 1841 census-
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58184546e93790eca3c87e02/george-chant-baptism-somerset-henstridge-1825-07-31?locale=en
Baptism George Chant s/o William labourer & Susanna 31 Jul 1825, Henstridge.
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I wonder if this is baby William.
Burial of William Chant aged 11 months on 27th February 1858 at Henstridge
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Looks likely - any burial for Joseph 1851 of Henry & Ann?
Any of these likely deaths for Ann?
CHANT, ANN 20
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 10 Page 410
CHANT, ANN 38
GRO Reference: 1852 M Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 393
CHANT, ANN ELIZABETH 25
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 409
1851 states she's 27 so born ca 1823.
ADDED:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5e4c114cf493fd542eca05bf/fanny-mitchell-baptism-somerset-merriott-1824-01-24?locale=en
Baptism of A Fanny Mitchell 24 Jan 1824 d/o Joseph carpenter & Joanna, Merriott
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Ah I see - so there is potential for those children to be nephews/nieces.
On my 1881 Census for Henry & Mary Ann Poole I have
Emily Poole Chant(b.1869)
Caroline Poole Chant(1870)
Mary Jane Poole Chant (1872)
No Joe on the 1881 census but may be too old to be living at home or passed away
These are all born prior to Henry & Mary Ann getting married so I assumed were from a previous relationship. They are all baptised as older children with the middle name 'Poole' in the local parish in Clifton
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Baptisms in Henstridge parents George and Fanny Chant
Henry 14/06/1850
Charles - ditto -
Ann 25/12/1852
William 19/04/1857
Susan 27/071858 (age 3 years)
I think this is them. Fanny died in 1858 and George remarried. (Are we supposing that George Chant and Fanny Mitchell are siblings of Henry Chant and Ann Mitchell?)
1861 Henstridge
George Chant head 33 Ag.lab Henstridge
Sarah wife 23
Charles 13
Henry 11
Ann 9
Susan 7
Henrietta 5
George Chant, widowed, labourer, father William labourer
married 30 Aug 1860
Sarah Hannah Tizard single father William Tizard coachmaker.
Witnesses John Chant & Susan Chant
Birth reg. Henrietta her surname Tizard no mmn
1851 census are James & Hannah Mitchell related to Fanny or Ann?
Henstridge Somerset
George Chant Head Labourer Henstridge, Somerset
Fanny Chant Wife Glover Henstridge, Somerset
Charles Chant Son. Henstridge, Somerset
Henry Chant Son Henstridge, Somerset
James Mitchell Lodger Widower
Hannah Mitchell Lodger Unmarried Glover
HO107 Piece 1931 Folio 362 Page 1
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Looks likely - any burial for Joseph 1851 of Henry & Ann?
Any of these likely deaths for Ann?
CHANT, ANN 20
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 10 Page 410
1851 states she's 27 so born ca 1823.
Still finding nothing for Henry, Ann & Joseph Chant on 1861 census ???
As mentioned above Ann's age is 27 on 1851 census so quite an age gap :-\
If it is her perhaps she died shortly after childbirth son Joseph Chant's birth was registered
1851 J Quarter Wincanton
Henry Chant - Father William Chant
Marital status Widowed
Marriage 21 May 1873 at St Andrew, Clifton, Bristol
Mary Ann Poole - Single - Father William Poole
Image for the marriage is available on Ancestry - details as given by rosie99.
Both fathers given as William, and both Labourer. J and Margaret Ralph are the witnesses.
Does it give an address, occupation / age on the m/c for Henry?
Don't know whether I've overlooked it has the 1871 census details been found for Henry Chant confirming occupation, address
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Don't know whether I've overlooked it has the 1871 census details been found for Henry Chant confirming occupation, address
Whoo big omission, somehow thought we'd had that from Gaynor early on! Will look now.
ADDED:Not 1871 but
1881 RG11; Piece: 3904; Folio: 104; Page: 37
Hy. Chant 57 b Henstridge gen labourer
Mary A. P. Chant 37
Emily Chant 12
Caroline Chant 11
Mary J. Chant 9
Henry Chant 7
Susan Chant 5
William Chant 3
Florence Chant 1
So between 1851 [census with Ann] & 1869 [conception/birth of Emily] Henry has not been found....maybe he went abroad/to prison/to an asylum Have tried looking for H C but none born in correct location.
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CHANT, EMILY BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1868 S Quarter in AXBRIDGE Volume 05C Page 602
CHANT, CAROLINE BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in BEDMINSTER Volume 05C Page 751
CHANT, MARY JANE BUTCHER
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 68
Maybe Henry was living with Mary Ann but wasn't free to marry until 1873?
ADDED : Maybe for the back burner?
Marriages Mar 1851
Brown Jane Wincanton 10 821
Burge Hannah Wincanton 10 821
Chant Henry Wincanton 10 821
Hooper William Wincanton 10 821
Mitchel Ann Wincanton 10 821
Ancestry shows marriage on 16 Feb 1851, Henry's father William labourer, Henry made mark.
CHANT, JOSEPH MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 10 Page 577
CHANT, ANN MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 511
CHANT, SUSAN MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1854 D Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 576
CHANT, WILLIAM MITCHELL
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in WINCANTON Volume 05C Page 577
It gets weirder and weirder each time someone finds something ;D
I know on Henry & Mary Ann's wedding certificate there is approx 20years between them, so possibly waiting for existing spouse to pass away prior to marrying.
Would explain why all the older children were baptized with the surname 'Poole Chant' at a much later date in Manchester. Possibly finally had opportunity to make it 'proper'.
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Are you looking for connections to Hannah Burge also? Because I am pretty sure she is one of my ancestors. Hannah Burge, from Somerset. I think there were a few generations of Hannahs as traditional naming customs prevailed. Or are you looking at a couple of generations of people with the same first and last name and that is what is throwing you? Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.