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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Naizam on Friday 07 August 20 22:43 BST (UK)
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Good day all,
Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like some help on Christening vs Baptisms. Depending upon which website I choose to use, events are labeled as one or the other. For example:
Ancestry/Find My Past: Robert Meiklejohn was baptized on 29 May 1825
Family Search: Robert Meiklejohn was Christened on 29 May 1825
I've googled and relive i understand the difference but it seems that sites / others use the terms interchangeably?
I use the following naming convention from my media files
Surname_Forename_Middle Initials-event year-event type
and now have files that are identical but one is a baptism (BAP) and the other a christening (CHR)?
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They are one and the same, in essence the welcoming of a child into the family of the church.
There was a lot of superstition in days gone by that to my certain knowledge
lingered into the 1950’s.
Often you hear the term “ unchrisomed child “ ie not Christened.
Would it go to heaven or stay in Limbo?
Baptism follows when John The Baptist symbolically washed away sins in the River Jordan,notably Jesus .
In the Service in the Church of England the Minister says “ I baptise thee—-.
Christening is the lay person’s term often but both involve blessings, naming, renouncing sin The Church has it we are all born in sin!!!
The water is the symbolic washing away if that sin.
The naming part is really secondary.,well to the minister but not to the parents for example .
Perhaps The Baptist Church,where total immersion is practiced uses Baptism all the time whereas you do hear Christening used in the C of E.
EViktoria.
sYs
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Technically, baptism refers to the sprinkling of or immersion in water. In effect, in records, there is no difference between baptism and christening. Maybe Family Search prefers the word "christen" as the site is maintained by a religious organisation. In the Church of Scotland registers "baptise" is the usual word.
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I’ve been under the impression that baptism is a sacrament performed in some Christian churches, and that christening is part of the process of receiving a name, being part of the same ceremony, but not a sacrament, and am not sure all churches refer to baptism, marriage, etc. as sacraments.
Also always thought a baby, in danger of dying at birth, could be baptized by anyone present? In the past, the midwife, for example.
My oldest brother was born in a RC run hospital in Quebec and my mother declined nun’s suggestion of baptizing him right away. My the time my other brother and I came along, there was a new city-run hospital where baptism was not automatically done and we all subsequently made it to the font of our local Anglican Church.
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The Roman Catholic Church believes an unChristened /Baptised child ,should it die, would not go to heaven but remain in Limbo- the borderland of Hell!
Assigned to the unbaptised,and those born before Jesus-Christ- so unCHRISTened .Not heaven but not as bad as hell.
Out of concern for such children the R.C. Church baptises new born babies as soon as possible.
The C.of England is not so concerned about Limbo and is better known as the welcoming into the Church.our zMinister always says to the parents at a Christening ( or baptism) “ You have named your baby ,we welcome him/ her into the family of The Church”.
It is not a legal requirement , and now not so many people attend church many parents don’t bother,some do because they want the child to attend a Church School, which have good reputations , and those schools do require it.
Other parents want the family get together and do believe the baby will then be part of the Church family.
Others—— well honestly it is often just an excuse for a knees up.
We mostly never see them again but they are made most welcome at the time.
There is superstition attached ,older generation women really
believed babies did not thrive if not Christened!
My mother in law was of that opinion ,I was almost scared to say my son had gained twelve ounces in weight the first week of his life, and him not Christened until three weeks old !
How dare he!
Often Roman Catholic babies are Christened whilst still in hospital and just a day or two old.That is certainly common in Catholic European countries, it is the worry of them being in Limbo you see.in days gone by neo natal deaths were very common.
Sorry but that is a strong belief ,which I don’t believe.
If there is such a place as heaven an innocent baby is the most likely one to go there but I respect the age old beliefs of others.
So I am pretty sure Baptism and Christening ,especially for lay people are interchangeable words, but you are correct in saying Baptism is a sacrament whilst Christening is not ,so the welcoming of the baby by the use of water( back to John the Baptist) -Baptism and it’s washing away of original sin ie the sins we are born with- is the sacrament and the naming during that rite is
Christening.
The child is then “ known to Christ”.
Most people say a baby is being Christened very few say Baptised.
, Even Church magazines etc list Christenings ,ours is one such.
You don’t get a Baptism without the naming also and not the naming without the Baptism,well not in Church.
I don’t think I have made it any clearer have I!
Viktoria.
Viktoria.
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Limbo is not now part of Catholic teaching, thankfully.
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Really, gosh I did not know that, I did know every effort was made to baptise babies in the belief that otherwise they would be there for ever , hence Baptisms in hospital ,a matter of course in Catholic countries.
It was offered to me in Belgium, two days after the birth of my daughter,she was not in any danger ,but the Maternity Clinic was run by Nuns .
Ah well, times change don’t they ,there has been a topic about Churching women ,which is now essentially a thanksgiving but as even in the Baptism service it says babies are conceived and born in sin ,and there was even in 1957 when my first baby was born part of the Churching service which mentioned that ,and infuriated me!
Why only me there in that case!
Never mind .
Good luck with your research.
Viktoria.
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It is not a legal requirement , and now not so many people attend church many parents don’t bother,some do because they want the child to attend a Church School, which have good reputations , and those schools do require it.
I went to a church school with a very good reputation and it was a requirement that I underwent confirmation first.
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Also always thought a baby, in danger of dying at birth, could be baptized by anyone present? In the past, the midwife, for example.
I cannot speak for other Denominations, but the Church of England will accept that ANY Christian may baptise another person if there is a danger or belief that the person might die without.
Regards
Chas
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Baptism as an "adult" - that is, old enough to understand what you are promising, was an important part of at least earlier Baptist Chapel rituals. Usually by total immersion, I think.
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They are one and the same, in essence the welcoming of a child into the family of the church.
There was a lot of superstition in days gone by that to my certain knowledge
lingered into the 1950’s.
Often you hear the term “ unchrisomed child “ ie not Christened.
Would it go to heaven or stay in Limbo?
Baptism follows when John The Baptist symbolically washed away sins in the River Jordan,notably Jesus .
In the Service in the Church of England the Minister says “ I baptise thee—-.
Christening is the lay person’s term often but both involve blessings, naming, renouncing sin The Church has it we are all born in sin!!!
The water is the symbolic washing away if that sin.
The naming part is really secondary.,well to the minister but not to the parents for example .
Perhaps The Baptist Church,where total immersion is practiced uses Baptism all the time whereas you do hear Christening used in the C of E.
EViktoria.
sYs
Some Vicars obviously though Baptism & Christening were two different things there are a number of entries showing baptisms & christenings for the same child at Bottesford and in other parish registers across the country.
Here are just two examples from the Bottesford, Leicestershire register.
11 April 1798 Thomas son of Demetrius Judson & Ann labourer Baptised at Long Bennington, Christened at Bottesford Apr 12 1798 born 18 Sep 1797
29 Apr 1798 Zebedee son of William Hallam and Elizabeth Baptised and Christened Apr 29 1798 born 4 Apr 1798
Cheers
Guy
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I cannot speak for other Denominations, but the Church of England will accept that ANY Christian may baptise another person if there is a danger or belief that the person might die without.
Catholic Church: "In imminent danger of death ... when no priest or deacon is available, any member of the faithful, indeed anyone with the right intention, may and sometimes must administer baptism"
(Rite of Baptism, No. 16)
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I cannot speak for other Denominations, but the Church of England will accept that ANY Christian may baptise another person if there is a danger or belief that the person might die without.
Catholic Church: "In imminent danger of death ... when no priest or deacon is available, any member of the faithful, indeed anyone with the right intention, may and sometimes must administer baptism"
(Rite of Baptism, No. 16)
My mother-in-law, a Roman Catholic, was told by her priest that she could baptise my baby son, her grandson, herself, by taking a little Holy Water from the Church and carrying out a small ceremony. This was not dependent on my son's health at the time.
I wanted both my children to make the choice to be baptised into the Christian Church if they chose to do so, and therefore my son had not been christened (and neither was my daughter).
My mother-in-law incautiously told me that this was what her priest had said, and I told her that we, as parents, strongly disapproved. I respect others' religious views, but if a religion states a baby is condemned to Limbo, a dreadful place, if not baptised, then I question that religious statement and urge adherents to do the same.
However, my son and I have always wondered whether he was 'done' on the kitchen table whilst I wasn't looking.
I am glad to hear Heywood's comment that Limbo is not now part of Catholic teaching.
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I wonder if the two different ones are
a) Church of England
b) Non Conformist
Or the other way round .
However Baptist’s believe that it is an adult decision and the person needs to know and appreciate exactly what is happening so only adult Baptisms there.
Especially as Baptists as I and someone else said,require total immersion .
Marriages were another sort of case, C of E were considered the “strongest”
among Protestants ,so there there might have been two,Cof E and a Methodist or Baptist one if the couple were among those following Methodist and Baptist breakaway religions.
Just surmising.
Viktoria.
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IgorStrav. There are questions from people like your mother-in-law on Catholic Answers website. "Can I baptise my granddaughter?", "Can I baptise my nephew?" &c.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-we-have-our-granddaughter-baptized-if her-parents-wont
"Unless in danger of death canon law does not allow you to have her baptised against both her parents' will".
Your m-i-l's priest may have been operating according to a different (or his own) interpretation of canon law.
New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law published 2000.
There is a distinction between a valid and a "licit" baptism.
Edit. Link doesn't work but the post exists.
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I have just checked the original record as I noticed an issue in my transcript where due to an interlineation I copied the entry wrong it should read
Sarah, Daughter of William Ravell (by Hannah his wife) born Sept 18th, baptized 7th Oct 1797 at Long Bennington, and Christened at Bottesford April 12th 1798.
The churches in question were two C of E churches
Cheers
Guy
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IgorStrav. There are questions from people like your mother-in-law on Catholic Answers website. "Can I baptise my granddaughter?", "Can I baptise my nephew?" &c.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/can-we-have-our-granddaughter-baptized-if her-parents-wont
"Unless in danger of death canon law does not allow you to have her baptised against both her parents' will".
Your m-i-l's priest may have been operating according to a different (or his own) interpretation of canon law.
New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law published 2000.
There is a distinction between a valid and a "licit" baptism.
Edit. Link doesn't work but the post exists.
Thank you very much Maiden Stone, for the clarification.
I have no idea whether she carried out her informal baptism on the kitchen table - my son (now nearly 30) says he doesn't feel different either way.
But I think I was fairly forthright in my expression of what I thought about her proposal.
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I think it all depends on which religious denomination you belong to, local traditions and quite possibly the phase of the moon or which way the wind is blowing. You pays your money and you take your choice.
I was bought up in a nonconformist, largely Baptist, tradition. As far as I am concerned christening is a naming ceremony whilst (adult) baptism (complete immersion) marks your entry into the church at an age when you can understand and accept the beliefs. A friend of mine who is a CofE lay preacher is horrified by this heresy and insists that baptism is a ceremony introducing someone into the church and that this is confirmed when they enter the church at an age when they are supposed to be able to understand the implications.
My stepchildren were dedicated in a Baptist church, that is as babies they were introduced to the congregation who promised to help bring them up in the Christian tradition and guard over them.
In practice the two terms are nowadays probably completely interchangeable
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I have just read through the chapter on baptism in a 1709 Church of Scotland handbook which I have here. The word christen never appears, only baptise.
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This happened to me. I was baptized by a midwife because she thought I was in danger of dying. She chose my name and my parents had to stick with it because I was baptized with that name. And yet here I am over 70 years later. Stuck with a name that was spelt in a different way to the usual spelling which still causes me problems.
Venelow
Canada
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robbo43, I agree with your view .... as I mentioned earlier.
Just remembered I've neither been baptised nor christened myself, because my Mum's sister made such a fuss about wanting to be there, .... and kept finding reasons why she couldn't make it.... and eventually my parents gave up trying to fix days!
Having said that, I attended a Baptist chapel and Sunday School as a youngster, and even acted as a Sunday School Teacher for years, there ... and everyone, including the minister, knew I'd never been either christened nor baptised!
-Do you think that might help me out of limbo, if I ever find myself there?
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Well, you are going nowhere ,there ain’t no such place as Limbo,unless you are addicted to dancing almost on the floor!
Handy if you ever get locked in a public toilet!
Viktoria.
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Now: that conjures up quite an image!
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Well, you are going nowhere ,there ain’t no such place as Limbo,unless you are addicted to dancing almost on the floor!
Handy if you ever get locked in a public toilet!
Viktoria.
lol, I agree with Yorky; ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well, you are going nowhere ,there ain’t no such place as Limbo,unless you are addicted to dancing almost on the floor!
Handy if you ever get locked in a public toilet!
Viktoria.
That's resurrected a memory of being stuck in the school outdoor lav. when I was a small child. An equally small classmate managed to get in and unlock the door. I can't remember whether she crawled under the door or partition or climbed over aided by a foot-up from a bigger girl. There were very few obese 5 year-olds in my day.
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And that reminds of jokers who used to put notices in toilets that had doors that did not reach the floor .
“ BEWARE LIMBO DANCERS”.
Viktoria.
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I think that christening was a naming ceremony and that baptism was the water from the font so maybe at that time it was sometimes separated but now the 2 things are interchangeable for infant baptism or christening.
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When in doubt I consult Oxford English Dictionary (Pocket edition)
baptism, Religious rite of immersing in or sprinkling with water in sigh of purification & (with Christians) admission to the Church, usually accompanied by name-giving; naming of ship &c. [French, Latin, Greek (bapto - dip)]
baptize, administer baptism to, christen; purify, elevate,
christen, Admit to a Christian Church by baptism, give name to or name so & so (esp. person at baptism, also ship, animal, person by way of nickname) [Latin Christianus CHRISTIAN]
chrism, Consecrated oil