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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: CelticMom on Monday 03 August 20 19:16 BST (UK)
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I have an ancestor James McLaren who ends up in Waterford, he was a shoemaker and Protestant. He married a Catholic lady Mary Murray in 1837 in Kilkenny.
I’ve found prison records for him and poor house records. But last trace of him is serving time in 1883 in Waterford. I can’t find his death anywhere.
He is in a Dublin workhouse in 1880 but back in Waterford In 1883, maybe the poorhouse sent him back there.
I also can’t find a birth/baptism, one prison record states he was born Belfast (fanning institute) does anyone know what this is/was.
I don’t need children, prison records etc as I’ve researched those extensively, it is just his birth/death I am struggling with.
McLaren as has many variations. Mclawrence, mclaurence etc
There are quite a few unknown deaths I suppose any of those could be him, no way of knowing really, as most have no ages and are just found in the river suir.
(sorry after posting this I realized I’ve already posted for help with this over year ago now but it is still frustratingly not solved), but it didn’t come up when I searched, just the one I posted in the Waterford group, so if you want to merge this with my old one that’s fine)
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I think there was a Fanning Institute in The Glen, Waterford
https://books.google.fr/books?id=QR9RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA491&lpg=PA491&dq=fanning+institute,+belfast&source=bl&ots=ftEUs8hptb&sig=ACfU3U3VCpRDQ30xNlWYtLvvrZJEx5HqqQ&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWjonr2P_qAhWIy4UKHSxcCfsQ6AEwEHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=fanning%20institute%2C%20belfast&f=false
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I think there was a Fanning Institute in The Glen, Waterford
https://books.google.fr/books?id=QR9RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA491&lpg=PA491&dq=fanning+institute,+belfast&source=bl&ots=ftEUs8hptb&sig=ACfU3U3VCpRDQ30xNlWYtLvvrZJEx5HqqQ&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWjonr2P_qAhWIy4UKHSxcCfsQ6AEwEHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=fanning%20institute%2C%20belfast&f=false
Ahhh right, it’s in his place of birth Column - it has Belfast and then fanning institute underneath so wanted to make sure that didn’t refer to somewhere in Belfast too. Perhaps that was where he was sent but they added it the same Column as his place of birth.
I’m guessing it’s unlikely baptisms would exist for that time of Birth for Protestants? Unless I know exactly what area in Belfast?
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Please contact me
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Two earlier threads on James McLaren-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800052.msg6574600#msg6574600 (Antrim)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=798044.msg6552267#msg6552267 (Waterford)
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I did find a Dublin Workhouse entry in 83 that is a candidate for our James. Details are few but indicate the administrator was not making too much effort being accurate. Anyway in the last colum for discharge date / death it reads died in 1892
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Haven't heard from Celtic mom in some time...shevy
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I did find a Dublin Workhouse entry in 83 that is a candidate for our James. Details are few but indicate the administrator was not making too much effort being accurate. Anyway in the last colum for discharge date / death it reads died in 1892
Dublin North or Dublin South?
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South
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Are you related to James btw
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South
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I remember looking the other day for the death you found in Dublin Workhouse but couldn't find it online to see what details are listed. Have you found it? if so, please post the link.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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https://search.findmypast.ie/record?id=IRE%2FNAI-WRKHS%2F007635006%2F00138&parentid=IRE%2FNAI-WRKHS%2F00336364
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That link only works with a subscription to Find My Past which I and many others do not have. I was searching for the death on Irish Genealogy and unable to find it which is why I asked for a link to the actual death record.
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the link is to a page of the Admission and Discharge registers for North Dublin Union, it includes a 60 year old James McLaren, married Protestant of 'no fixed residence', admitted on 15th August 1884 and reported as 'Died' 6th March '92
His death is indexed as JAMES MLAREN on Irishgenealogy (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/4d18ed3747472), death in NDU Workhouse, residence also Wokhouse, informant is a Patk.Callaghan, 'inmate'.
p.s. the workhouse registers show several likely additional admissions for the same person, a mix of Dublin north and South.
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I think the Glasnevin entries are taken directly from the Workhouse information when he was admitted in 1884.
The case for the 1884 North Dublin Workhouse entry, 1892 death and subsequent burial in Glasnevin being the Waterford James McLawrence, originally from Belfast, born appx 1808.
The 1884 Workhouse admittance entry is minimal and any detail is questionable, his age (born 1824) and marital status in particular. His Protestant religion and having no fixed residence are in our favour.
An earlier entry in 1879 also described our James, the shoe maker from Waterford as married even though his wife had died in 1876.
The page that contains the entry, the page before and the page after had an occupation assigned to every adult male. James is the single exception. For the 1884 entry 'none' is recorded. One of his other confirmed workhouse entries had 'none' also recorded. Anyhow the minimal effort to establish a trade, even a labourer, would indicate to me that they guessed at his age also. James as we know was a tramp and was probably treated as such by some administrators.
There are only a few James McLaren entries (including other surname variants) for the Dublin workhouses. These entries show that there was two elderly James McLarens active in the system. One was a weaver from Dublin and one was a shoemaker from Waterford. An entry is found for the weaver a few years after 1892 so this would rule him out. In any case a Dublin native is less likely to have no address than the tramp from Waterford. That just leaves our James.
I can see from the few confirmed workhouse entries that the age is inconsistent on the admittance and suggests its likely to be an estimate.
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Thanks for the death certificate, this matches the 84 admission and 92 Glasnevin burial. Ive tried to send the Workhouse file but file size is too big.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99L4-CSTD?cc=4496114&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A6J7B-8DKD
You should be able to see record on the free site
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Further evidence the 92 death in Dublin is the Waterford James McLaren
From 1879 first admittance to 1884 final admittance we have 5 Dublin workhouse (north and south) entries for James McLaren. There is no other James McLaren in the system at this time. It was helpful to place all information in table format.
Table format shows there was no date overlaps with the 5 Dublin entries. Had there been an overlap then we would be dealing with a second James McLaren which would be difficult to explain.
In the attached table you can see for the 5 Dublin entries that it’s the one person. On 2 occasions his discharge date from south Dublin workhouse corresponds with an admittance date for north Dublin workhouse. In one example from 23 July 79 his trade is a shoemaker and married. On the same day he is discharged from south Dublin workhouse he is admitted to the north Dublin workhouse this time with no trade and widowed, 6 years older too. Whether James was concealing information or administrators were guessing the table shows how variation in the records exist while at the same time recording enough evidence to suggest this is the same person on the move from Waterford to Dublin workhouses and back. One admin can record no fixed residence while another would use the label ‘tramp’.
There is a gap in the Dublin records for 2 years between 82 and 84 which can be explained by his return to Waterford. He appears in the Waterford prison records for 48hrs in 1883 and in the Waterford workhouse minutes in June 84 before his final admittance to the north Dublin workhouse in August 84.
Another peculiar entry, potentially scandalous, is the South Dublin admittance in June 79. Here James the shoemaker presents himself in Dublin for the very first time. He is accompanied by a younger lady, Ellen McLawrence, who is described as James wife even though James wife Mary had died 3 years earlier in 1876. Both James and Ellens entries show they were from Waterford and described as tramps. Records are showing only one Ellen McLawrence in existence in Waterford at this time. This Ellen was married to Thomas McLawrence, James son.
Does this entry capture Ellen leaving her family back in Waterford to be with her father in law? It only lasted a few summer weeks. In July they were both discharged and on that same date James is admitted to the North Dublin workhouse, this time alone, no trade and widowed (as discussed above). No further entries are found for Ellen until a Waterford baptism record for her son Joseph appears in April 1880. Josephs birth registration could not be found nor was his date of birth recorded on the baptism record.
Single line entries in the history records can be too readily dismissed if some of the detail is not what we would like to see. Historical records are not always accurate or consistent. But if they are mapped carefully on the same page they can reveal a strong likelyhood that all 5 Dublin workhouse entries including his death in 1892 belong to our James from Waterford and Belfast originally.
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table attached
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Glasnevin Entry
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Just one other point on age recordings. I checked a good few workhouse admission pages for ages ending in zero digit. You would expect accurate record keeping to have 1 in 10 age recordings ending in zero. Instead what you find close to half of all adult age entries end in a zero which indicated a lot of rounding and estimating. The final Dublin admission age estimation in 1884 was a poor one (born 1824) and it seems eight years later the admission error was copied directly for the workhouse death cert and burial cert where the workhouse would have provided the information to the cemetery. So while it looks like 3 distinct age entries they all stem from one erroneous entry for the final workhouse admission in 1884.