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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: frirish on Friday 31 July 20 18:15 BST (UK)
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Hello all!
I am searching John born circa 1848 in Portsmouth. He was a sailor, a winch man in fact and emigrated to Everton where he married the lovely Pauline Vale. Here is what I need to make sense of: I thought it seemed reasonable that he might have been from Dorset, Wareham to be exact, but is that really feasible?
If truth be told I am praying this is not the case, as the trees covering those generations are well, a dog's breakfast! (Children from couples with the same names are intermixed despite the fact that one couple is C of E and the other Dissenters!)
Now John and Pauline had some not so common names for their children which I hope may catch someone's attention. Gladys and Gertrude being the most uncommon.
Thanks to Jed, he discovered maiden name of Baggs in Warehnam for his mother!
While I agree the Tollerfield surname often got mangled, it has been my experience that more often than not it was written correctly for the older generations I researched. ( John and Jane Courtney for example, whom I now believe are not a correct branch.)
Can someone be so kind as to suggest if I ought to remain in Alverstoke or head back to Dorset? One other clue: the Dorset crew, understandably did not have any mariners in the family! Thank you in advance for any advice. Cheers!
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Who's his father?
When,where, and with whom is he in official records and census?
Pauline
TOLLERFIELD, JOHN BAGGS
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in WAREHAM AND PURBECK Volume 08 Page 117
TOLLERFIELD, EMMA BAGGS
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in WAREHAM AND PURBECK Volume 08 Page 135
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No marriage between a Tollerfield & a Pauline Vale
In fact - no marriage for a Pauline Vale until 1953
No birth registrations for a Gladys or Gertrude Tollerfield??
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ANNIE Gertrude Tollerfield b 9.4.1884 was baptised 4.6.1884 Christ church Everton. Parents John & Pauline
Mothers maiden name was Lethbridge - where did you get Vale from?
All you needed to do to establish his birthplace is to look up the family on the 1881/1891 censuses
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Other births - all mmn Lethbridge
Pauline 1879
Margaret Jane 1881
Marion 1889
Charles 1887
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1881 - birthplace Hampshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-DHV2
1891
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:737L-C6Z
In 1871 she is Pauline Vale
Marriages June qtr 1873 www.freebmd.org.uk
John Tolerfield (one L) to Pauline Mary JS Leathbridge
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk marriage was at St Mary's Walton & her surname is shown as Lethbridge
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Marriage 9.4.1873
John Tolerfield bachelor - full age- mariner - father John occ bricklayer
Pauline Mary Joan Lindell Lethbridge - spinster - father Benjamin Alexander occ book keeper
Witnesses Edmund Chisters? & Marie Rigby
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
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Pauline Leathbridge and Pauline Vale are two different ladies. So if Leathbridge is the mother I need to find the correct children. Pualine Vale may have only had a daughter Pauline then. Thank you for your research anyhow! I found John's dad in Wareham and all is good! Oh and yes Baggs is the correct mother. Job well done! :D
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They are not 2 different people. Look at the mother in law on the 1881 entry.
Either Pauline was illegitimate - born as Lethbridge then mother married Vale
Or - she was legitimate - father died & mother remarried
See also my reply 2
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Lancashire OPC
Christ Church Everton
Parents John and Pauline Tollerfield
Agnes Gertrude born 9 April 1884
Charles born 21 March 1887
Marion Gladys baptized 25 September 1889 (only one without a birth date)
Benjamin born 23 January 1891
Harry Augustus born 4 March 1893
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St James the Less Church
John Edward Tollerfield baptized 16 April 1876 parents John and Pauline
Margaret Jane Tollerfield baptized 11 August 1881 parents John Tollerfield and Pauline
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So you have the baptisms/births of the 2 children you quote in your opening post - Gladys & Gertrude and both have mothers maiden name as Lethbridge
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Another Marriage same Father;
3 Feb 1873 St Mary, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire
Benjamin Sudell Leathbridge - Minor, Fireman, Bachelor, Everton
Esther Allen - Minor, Spinster, Everton
Father: Benjamin Anderson Leathbridge, Deceased****, Book Keeper
Father: Thomas Allen, Boiler Maker
(LancsOPC)
Looks like Esther remarried 22 Oct 1877 to Samuel LLOYD, Widow, Father Thomas ALLEN
(Anc.)
1881 Census
Samuel Lloyd 23
Esther Lloyd 26 born Liverpool
Samuel Lloyd 3
Thomas Lloyd 1
Lucy J. Lloyd
Annie M. Hannah 23
Benjamin W. Allen 8
Benjamin E. Lethberg 6 Stepson (Benj G on image)
Darned if I can find Death Reg for Benj Jnr or Snr ???
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So could the Lindell in Paulines name really be Sudell or Ludell?
Birth Reg;
LETHBRIDGE, BENJAMIN ANDERSON mmn SUDELL
GRO Reference: 1853 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 149
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Help Carole W and amondg :)
Am I clutching at straws?
LETHBRIDGE, MARY JANE mmn SUDELL
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 211
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I think we need some input from frirish before putting any further effort in. Somewhat confusing reply from him #7
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Both children with mothers maiden name as Sudell say their father Benjamin Lethbridge is a book keeper and deceased when they marry.
Perhaps their mother told them that after being deserted by the father.
Benjamin Leithbridge died age 23 on 1 June 1875, drowned, crew member of the ship Vicksburg, his address 50 Epsom Street Liverpool.(ancestry has Bonjamin)
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:o :o :o :o
Words fail me you two! I don't know where to start. Well first I don't understand the assumption that I am male...
When I said the two Paulines were different people, I was told they were not.
My initial question was about geography which was not answered.
I did not give details precisely because I already had them. At no time did I ask that my efforts be duplicated. I have witnessed this phenomenon before and all it serves is to make me feel bad that someone would storm ahead and waste their time. Best to ask questions first.
As I have come to learn with public family history sites, mistakes are made by all involved myself included. But with the Tollerfield line I have encountered even more types of errors than I have experienced to date. I post this as a cautionary tale.
I have come across errors made by ancestry themselves. Here are some examples for the Tollerfield line.
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name: John Tollerfield
Gender: Male
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
Child: Charles Tollerfield
Is incorrectly denoted as a marriage record when it's actually a baptismal record.
The individual who transcribed the data on the Tollerfield families in Liverpool saw fit to interchange data between the two most liberally.
The two Paulines are indeed two people!!!
Emily Pauline Lethbridge
Birth: 9th August 1858 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Death: 1st Jun 1921 - West Derby, Lancashire, England
Marriage: 25 Dec 1876 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Richard Henry Mills
F:Benjamin Anderson Lethbridge M: Jane Lambert
Pauline Jane Lydia (not Ludell) Vale (Vail, Vaile) Lethbridge was added for some reason.
Bapt: June 4 1868 Everton
Death: Dec 9 1895 Everton
Spouse: John Thomas Tollerfield 9 April 1873
Parents William Vail and Lydia Jane Hartley
_____________________________________________
On all census records available, John Thomas is recorded as being from Plymouth, Hampshire. Which had me doubting his link to the Dorset Tollerfiedsm despite an abundance of family trees would have me believe. Hence why I posted my question about geography.
Long story short, he is actually from Postwick, Norfolk, Gloucestershire!
Now I can assure you that John Edward, Pauline, Margaret Jane, Annie Gertrude, Charles, Marion Gladys, Benjamin and Harry Augustus are all Pauline Vale's children. My sources just have Pauline with no surname listed as mother. You are saying Lethbridge was listed so I am curious as to where that what listed. Remember the other Pauline married a Mr Mills!
To rule out the notion that Pauline Lethbridge became Pauline Vale, look at the date Ms Lethbridge married - Christmas Day in 1976. Ms Vale gave birth to her first son John Edward Tollerfield the April of that same year.
I don't have the answer as to why Lethbridge was attached to Vale. or how Vale became Luddel!
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Hi frirish
Can I go back to your first post please, for some clarification?
You said that John Tollerfield was apparently born in Portsmouth (Hampshire) cir 1848, but then switched your focus to Dorset. Where did the possibility of Portsmouth or then Alverstoke first come from?
In your last post, you said that all census records indicate that John Thomas was born in Plymouth Hampshire. Is that an error? Plymouth is in Devon, the other side of Dorset which is where Wareham is.
On a quick recce, there is no John Tollerfield in the 1851 census born around 1848 in Hampshire - or Devon.
Do you have the information on the births in Dorset? There is a John Thomas Tollerfield b 1843 (mms Courtney) as well as the John born in 1849 (mms Baggs).
Since all three counties are on the south coast, I would not rule out any links between the various Tollerfield groups. I personally have ancestors who move from Dorset to Portsmouth and then some of their children married in Plymouth.
But what I would do is check, check and check again against original records rather than trees found on Ancestry. They may provide clues that might be worth following up, but that would be my limit.
My brain is definitely fried here - the heat is just too much to pick my way through this!
Nell
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From your last post:
Pauline Jane Lydia (not Ludell) Vale (Vail, Vaile) Lethbridge was added for some reason.
Bapt: June 4 1868 Everton
Death: Dec 9 1895 Everton
Spouse: John Thomas Tollerfield 9 April 1873
Parents William Vail and Lydia Jane Hartley
The original parish register entry for that marriage can be found on FamilySearch here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYZR-85N?i=390&cat=488464
The father's name is not William Vail and I can't see Vale or Vail on the entry. Do you actually have this? I have attached the record, just in case you don't have it. Her surname is very definitely Lethbridge, and there is no Lydia either. It does look like Ludell to me.
May I ask where the information on her parents come from? The appearance of Vail/Vale seems to be causing no end of confusion. :-\
Nell
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The occupation of Benjamin Lethbridge, the father of Emily Pauline who married Richard Mills is apparently a dancing master.
Nell
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1881 RG11/ 3661/90 p 12
21 Seacome St Everton
John Tollerfield Head 33 Seaman Winchman S F S S M b Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Pauline Tollerfield 26 1855 (ACTUALLY 1853)
John Edwd. Tollerfield 5
Pauline Tollerfield 2
Mary A. Vale 48 mother-in-law.
It stands to reason that Pauline the 26 year old has the surname Vale.
What year was Lethbridge born in? Was her mother in law a Mary Ann?
And did her John Thomas Tollerfield from from Porstmouth?
Moderator comment: edited to remove cut & paste. Please transcribe what you see. Thanks
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This line is making me dopey and obvious things are confusing me! I have researched the Dorset line up until 1790's when Poor laws were forcing them to move for town to town in Dorset. ( I did not research the Lethbridge line.)
My rule of thumb is to disprove other people's trees and that has served me well for over 20 + years!
The geography is what is tripping me up as this is my first foray into southern England. It is hard to get data on migratory patterns.
I do know it was relatively easy to get employment in Portsmouth so it certainly could have been a magnet for Tollerfields in every county. More background research required on my part.
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Help Carole W and amondg :)
Am I clutching at straws?
LETHBRIDGE, MARY JANE mmn SUDELL
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 211
I would say not.
Fits with that marriage if you read it as Pauline Mary Jane Sudell Lethbridge. Which I think you can.
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In 1891 in this household
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:737L-C6Z. (John & Pauline and family)
Are also
William Vale Husband Male 56 Mariner. Warwickshire
Mary Ann Vale Wife Female 56 Lancashire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:737L-1PZ
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Let's look at it from a different angle as nothing found by anybody who has replied supports a marriage of John Tollerfield to Pauline Vale. There are no Tollerfield births with a mmn of Vale either
Where does John Tollerfield fit in your FH?
Are you descended from one of his children? If so - please give full details - name/birthyear/birthplace
Have you found that child's birth reg on freebmd.
Have you then checked GRO online for the mothers maiden name or have you bought a copy of the child's birth cert?
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Hi frirish
OK, granted 1881 says born Portsmouth Hampshire, but what about 1871, 1861 and 1851? Is there a birth in Hampshire for John Tollerfield or variant between 1845 and 1850?
Mary A. Vale 48 mother-in-law.
It stands to reason that Pauline the 26 year old has the surname Vale.
Not necessarily. The relationship is to the head of the household, so it would seem that Mary A is Pauline's mother. But what if she was widowed and had remarried to become Vale? Have you ruled that out. CaroleW raised this possibility before.
The marriage date that you quoted in 1873, 9th April clearly shows John Tolerfield marrying Pauline Lethbridge. I can't see Vale/Vail on that record. It stretches credulity that there is another Tollerfield marriage on the same date in the same registration district to another Pauline. So I'm wondering where the information that her parents were William Vail and Lydia Jane Hartley come from that you quoted? And Lydia Jane is obviously not Mary A Vale.
I can see William Vale (mariner) and Mary A Vale his wife listed in 1891 in the same household as the Tollerfields. But it doesn't give the relationship to the head of the household, so that doesn't really help. I've not been able to find William prior to this with any certainty or Mary A.
The children's birth registrations are in the official GRO indexes https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
I've managed to check three of them, but the site is having a melt-down this evening and keeps throwing up a time-out error
John Edward mms Vale
Pauline mms Lethbridge
Marion (1889) mms Lethbridge
So this would seem to be where the confusion arises. Someone gave the registrar that information when they registered the births. Unfortunately, without sight of the certificates to see who the informant was in each case, it is very hard to tell why that information was given.
However this does not help you with your original query about Hampshire versus Dorset Tollerfields. I'm still looking for the Hampshire John in the GRO indexes and he just isn't there.
You are correct in thinking that Portsmouth was a magnet for those looking for work, but it was largely connected with Royal Navy vessels rather than commercial ships.
Nell
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1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDD1-1WZ
“Miriem” a sailor’s wife. But a considerable age difference for Miriem Compared with Mary Ann in 1881 & 1891
Miriem Vale Wife Female 48 Liverpool, Lancashire
Pauline Vale Daughter Female 15 Liverpool, Lancashire
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John Tollerfield cannot be found in Portsmouth because he was born elsewhere. Am currently researching Postwick, Norwich as a possibility. If that pans out then Gloucestershire will be next.
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1872 Crewlist says Dorset
1881 census says Portsmouth
1891 is indexed as Postwick, but I think it says Portsmouth.
Added. An 1876 Irish merchant navy crew list says Portsmouth.
There are agreements up to 1906. I’ve not looked at them all, but the ones I did...Portsmouth.
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Good find Mckha.
I also note from frirish's post on Friday 7th (reply #17) that Pauline was not baptised as a baby but in 1868 when she was considerably older. Have you found that baptism to see if that provides any additional confirmation of her birth etc.
And - frirish - you state quite clearly that in 1881 Pauline was actually born 1853 not 1855 as implied by her age. May I ask how you know this?
At the moment, all I can think is that there are quite a few participants in this little puzzle who might have been telling porkies in the 19th century.
Returning to your recent statement:
John Tollerfield cannot be found in Portsmouth because he was born elsewhere. Am currently researching Postwick, Norwich as a possibility. If that pans out then Gloucestershire will be next.
Does this mean that you are no longer interested in Tollerfields in Alverstoke?
Nell
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Good morning Little Nell,
The baptism At St James the Less doesn’t mention her birth at all.
Name Pauline Mary Jane
Parents are given as William & Mary Ann Vale
14 Hankin Street
Dock Gate Man.
Benjamin William (same details) was baptised the same day.
They both have a A in the margin.
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Oh dear. I have found this death
LETHBRIDGE, MARY JANE 4
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 134
Burial record says from Sidney Street, Islington. (Liverpool)
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Good morning Little Nell,
The baptism At St James the Less doesn’t mention her birth at all.
Name Pauline Mary Jane
Parents are given as William & Mary Ann Vale
14 Hankin Street
Dock Gate Man.
Benjamin William (same details) was baptised the same day.
They both have a A in the margin.
Hello
Was the baptismal in 1868 by any chance?
I was wondering what the A in the margin referred to and the lack of birth dates for the two.
There was a practice in the Catholic Church in Quebec for performing what was known as a conditional baptism to children born out of the diocese. The mother's word was not good enough and they required proof of baptism form the church were the child was actually first baptized.
My ancestors were in the US and refused to have their children baptized there and waited until they returned to Quebec. I wonder if there is a similar situation with the Vales. Their children could have been born in Devon.
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That was the baptism you referenced in reply#17.
I posted the details of it for Nell (I assumed you had already seen the image)
It is common for there to be no date of birth on the baptism register, but sometimes it IS there and a bonus. In this case there is no date of birth.
I think the A indicates they were “Adult” baptisms, which I have always interpreted as being “not babies” but not necessarily adult as we think of it today. So older children = adult baptism.
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This is all very curious.
The Vales children were not born in Devon - births are supposed to be registered in the district in which they occur. Baptisms can take place elsewhere. There is a birth registration entries for Mary Vale in West Derby RD June qtr 1853 vol 8b 364.
The official GRO indexes give the mother's maiden name for this entry as Murphy.
There is no birth registration for Benjamin Vale with the same mms, but there is one for a William Vale in 1865, Liverpool RD Dec qtr vol 8b p 242
William Vale married Ann Murphy in Sept qtr 1852 vol 8b p 259 (from GRO index). From Lancashire BMD the marriage took place at Our Lady St. Nicholas & St. Anne, Liverpool. The original register entry says the following:
11th July 1852
William Vale of full age bachelor black smith of Lambert Street, father Thomas Vale, labourer
Mary Murphy minor spinster of St Vincent Street, father Peter Murphy labourer,
by banns
William & Mary both made their mark
Witneses: George Evans (signed) & Sarah Evans (made her mark)
p 115 entry 229
So there is a birth registration for a daughter of William Vale and his wife Ann ( who might have been Mary Ann, but definitely not the Lydia Jane Hartley as in reply no 17 from OP - I'm still wondering where that came from).
These people are living at the same address at John Tollerfield and his wife Pauline in 1891, although no relationships are shown. In 1881 it is just Mary A Vale.
The implication is that Pauline is the daughter of Mary A Vale and therefore William, although she only acquires the name Pauline at baptism.
The first child John has the mms Vale in 1876 and he can be found in the household in 1881.
The second child Pauline in 1879 has mms Lethbridge, as does Margaret Jane in 1881, Charles in 1887 etc It seems a fair conclusion that Pauline decided to use the mms Lethbridge after John's birth. And that is also the name under which she married in 1873 - see the marriage entry. As I said before no mention of William Vale at all.
One wonders why she did that.
Anyway, since my question about whether you are still interested in Tollerfields in Alverstoke remains unanswered, I shall leave this query now.
Good luck.
Nell
Added: I agree with Mckha, th 'A' probably indicated adult or older child baptisms
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Hello,
I think I now have it sorted. Benjamin Anderson Lethbridge b 1830 had a relationship with Mary Ann Vale the wife of William. William was a sailor and often away. Benjamin`s father John was a tailor in Copperas Hill a specific area of Everton. Lo and behold William Vale`s father was a Hat-maker on the same strip in Copperas Hill. West Derby was a small rural back water at the time with about 4000 souls to speak of. They as merchants in the same trade had to have known each other. When Ben was younger he lived near a watch case maker and made chains for them. He would have sold his wares I would think in a haberdashery shop.
Benjamin was a dance instructor and possibly met Mary Ann Vale that way. Her husband was often away come census time. She had a son and a daughter with him. Benjamin Anderson II was born in June of 1853 and Mary Jane in Sept of 1855. Both were under Lethbridge.
Mary Jane was the name of Benjamin`s mother.
She becomes Pauline and the Luddell or Suddell ( latter could be Mary Ann`s surname and Suddell is an old clan name from Yorkshire where the Lethbridges were originally from .) is added to her name as evidenced by her marriage record which included her father`s name. Clearly Ben and Pauline lived with Mary Ann as Benjamin snr married Jane Lambert in 1856. His choice of names for his first two children are telling- Emily Pauline and Benjamin Anderson ( II). Was he living a double life? Perhaps if he was present at Pauline`s wedding. I find British parish records give scant information as to what took place. I image both sets of children must had a surprise to learn they has step siblings almost the same ages and names! But they may have never crossed paths.
As far as the Tollerfields go, I am on the right path with Alverstoke and am relieved they are not from the Dorset branch after all.
Thank you for your input on this challenging family. Much appreciated! BTW the name Pauline was used down the generations and a Pauline is my link to this line.
Cheers!
Frirish