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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Elaine01 on Friday 24 July 20 23:09 BST (UK)
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I would appreciate getting more information on the birth of Charles Winter.
The following is the information that I know so far:
1. Middle name might be “Leo”
2. Born January, 1902 in Leeds, Yorkshire.
3. Mother’s name is Mary Winter nee Hughes. She was born in Ireland.
4. Mary is married to Thomas Winter but I don’t think he is the father. They have eight children.
I have ordered the Death Certificate. I was wondering if the certificate states the cause of death.
Thank you for any information. I am trying to determine who is father is and whether Mary is actually his mother.
Elaine
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Hello and welcome to Rootschat.
Here is the birth info.You should be able to find him on the 1911 census.
WINTER, CHARLES LEO mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 493
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Thank so much for the information. Do you know if the father’s has been left blank?
Elaine
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Welcome to Rootschat, Elaine.
Did Charles marry? If so, did he name a father on the certificate?
His birth certificate should show his father’s name. He was registered, it seems, with Mary as his mother (with maiden name Hughes).
Why do you think Thomas is not his father?
Did Mary and Thomas split up?
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Hi
Charles did get married. I didn’t think of looking at his Marriage Certificate. Thank you for that suggestion.
In the 1911 Census, Thomas isn’t living at the house with Mary. Mary is shown as Head of the household but as still married. She is living with Charles who is noted as her son, together with some of her other adult children and her widowed mother, Annie. It is noted that she had 8 children, but only 7 survived. But, if you include Charles, she actually had 9 children. She would have had Charles when she was in her early 40’s. But the interesting thing is I found Thomas who was living with one of the married sons and his wife and he was listed as married.
I wonder if Charles was not Mary’s son, but one of her daughters or whether she became pregnant by another man and they separated. They were devout Catholics and perhaps that is the reason they did not divorce. But, I can’t imagine her lying on the birth certificate.
Sorry to be long winded.
Elaine
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Welcome to Rootschat.
For reference, 1901, 1911:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9RW-MTQ
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWV3-1TT
Father in 1911: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW53-YPT
They are at a variety of residences in 1891. :D
Why do you assume that mother and father are separated because they are not at the same address on census night?
Mary would have been 41 at time I’d Charles’ birth. It’s possible.
Jamjar
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You'd be surprised at how much dishonesty was about back then relating to recording of information.
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Yes partly because of the Census. I realize Thomas could have been visiting his son, but why was Mary listed as Head of the household.
And in Ancestry I found two FamilyTrees that show Charles as being a half brother of the other siblings. So I have to assume that Thomas was not the father. But, that is why I wanted to confirm that Thomas was not listed as the father in the birth certificate.
And why does it show in the Census that Mary had 8 children but in reality she would have had 9 if you included Charles..
Thank you for the link to Family Search.
And thank you for your help.
Elaine
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Sep 1880 Leeds 9b 666
WINTER Thomas
HUGHES Mary
1881: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27R-LC5M
WINTER, VINCENT AUSTIN mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD Volume 09A Page 342
Married: Mar 1906 Pancras 1b 137
WINTER Vincent Austin
BERRY Alice Tooke
WINTER, FRANCIS mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 161
WINTER, AGNES MARY mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 213
WINTER, GERTRUDE JOSEPHINE mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in BARNSLEY UNION Volume 09C Page 209
WINTER, THOMAS ARTHUR mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 656
WINTER, JOSEPH ALOYSIUS mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1892 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 525
WINTER, WILFRED ANTHONY mmn HUGHES
GRO Reference: 1893 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 527
1902: Charles
Who is missing?
Jamjar
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Thomas A. is her son. Missing: Frank, Cissy,
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Thomas A. is her son. Missing: Frank, Cissy,
I have listed the births on the previous post. There is no Cissy, or other appropriate female with mother Hughes, in that date range/area.
Cissy is listed as a granddaughter, 1891, does not say who’s daughter she is:
1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7F6Q-DZM
Can you see Francis/Frank after 1891?
Jamjar
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Cissy is listed in the 1891 Census as follows:
Hughes, John
Hughes, Annie
Hughes, Joseph (son)
Winter, Frank (Grandson)
Winter, Cissy. (Granddaughter)
Winter, Gertrude (Granddaughter)
John and Annie are Mary’s parents. Cissy was listed as 4 years old. All three grandchildren were born at Barnsley.
Thank you for getting me all the information with respect to Mary’s children in the previous post. I appreciate your help.
That is weird about Cissy.
Elaine
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I wonder if Cissy could be a pet name for Agnes Mary?
Can you see Agnes in 1891, I can’t?
Vincent in 1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7KYN-32M
Mother and son Thomas in 1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7223-22M
Father in 1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7NRJ-ST2
Possibly son Joseph in 1911: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7VW-7L6
Jamjar
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I am sorry I forgot to answer your question about Frank. No, haven’t seen him after 1891. I wonder if he is the child that died. I will try and find a death certificate.
That is a good point about Cissy being a pet name. But I have Cissy being born 1887 and Agnes being born 1885. But, I might be completely wrong. I will look into it and make sure I have the dates correct. I think you are right.
Elaine
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Frances wa born 1883, Agnes 1885, Gertrude 1887
1891 has them 1884, 1887, 1888.
Don’t rely on census dates.
What hard evidence do the online trees provide to prove the Charles wasn’t Mary’s son?
Jamjar
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Who did Charles marry?
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
WILLS, ESTATES & GUARDIAN RECORDS
Name: Charles Leo Winter
Death: 1970 England
Jamjar
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I can’t believe the dates are so different. In the future I will be more cautious and check the dates.
The other Family Trees don't question that Mary might not be the mother. But, they definitely must have proof that Thomas is not the father. Although I can’t find any evidence on their family trees of this fact to back this assumption. I am assuming that somehow they know for sure. I have emailed them twice and haven’t received a reply.
I was wondering if Mary was the mother only because on the census she states that she had eight children with seven being alive. I was thinking that with Cissie she had 8 and it would be 9 with Charles. But if there is no Cissie then it could be possible. And then of course it seems that she and Thomas separated after Charles was born.
I might have to order the actual birth certificate. I have ordered the death certificate.
Elaine
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If Charles was the son of Agnes, she was only 15/16 when she had him. It would have shamed the family.
There have been previous cases of a granny registering an illegitimate child in her name. My grandmother had an illegitimate child and she used her father’s name as the father on the registration. Folk lied to save face.
However, those with the Ancestry tree may be assuming what you are, that Mary was too old to have Charles. She wasn’t.
There is no evidence that Mary and Thomas were separated. He simply may have had to be where the work was available.
Where and when did Thomas and Mary die?
Jamjar
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He married Winifred M Wainwright in October 1945.
I can’t find that he had any children.
Is there any way I can look at his Will?
I should explain that it is important for me to find out the cause of his death. Mary Winter (Hughes) is my paternal grandfathers Aunt. But, I found out about ten years ago that he isn’t my grandfather because of a genetic disease that is passed from one generation to the next. My grandfather didn’t have it nor did my grandmother. And my grandfather’s family didn’t have it. But, I just recently received notification on Ancestry of sharing DNA with a Winter who turns out to be related to Mary Winter. So I was wondering if somehow I was related to Charles but with a different father than Thomas. Sorry, for sharing too much information and reading it back it doesn’t even makes sense to me...lol
Elaine
Elaine
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Someone from the UK will need to tell you about the Will.
Even if he had the genetic disease, it doesn’t mean he would have died from it alone.
Dec 1945 Wortley 9c 895
WINTER Charles L
WAINWRIGHT Winifred M
Sep 1970 Worthing 5h 1756
WINTER Charles Leo 14 January 1902
Jamjar
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So true about people lying. My father was brought up by his grandmother. He thought his grandmother was his mother and his mother was his sister..... and he didn’t find out till he was in his late teens. Then he had a new birth certificate issued and my grandfathers name was added as the father and the last name as changed. My grandparents married two years after he was born but the original birth certificate didn’t have a fathers name. So you are right about people doing what they think is the best thing to do in a difficult situation.
Mary died 28 Jan 1921 in Sunderland, Durham. Thomas died in 1918 in Barnsley.
I will see what the Death Certificate says for Charles and keep on looking.
Thank you so very much for your help. It is wonderful being able to discuss this with someone else and getting their ideas.
Elaine
Elaine
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Yes, it often helps sort things if we run them by someone else.
I think the sister being mother was also not uncommon.
You will pick up a lot of these situations after you’ve been on Rootschat for a while.
Are you living DOWNUNDER? I ask, because you are awake. ;D
Jamjar
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He married Winifred M Wainwright in October 1945.
I can’t find that he had any children.
Is there any way I can look at his Will?
Elaine
Elaine
Order his will here.....https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar
Make sure you use the correct band (1858-1996) they will send you it via PDF in a short while and it will cost you £1-50.
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Mary died 28 Jan 1921 in Sunderland, Durham. Thomas died in 1918 in Barnsley.
Do you have proof of these deaths?
Free BMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ shows no death for Thomas Winter in Barnsley.
There is this death
1912 Leeds March quarter vol 9b pg 522
Thomas Winter, 59 yrs
With regard to Mary’s death, did one of the family move to Sunderland?
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Here is the headstone of Thomas who died in 1912. You can see it shows February 1912 which fits with the death already mentioned.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/188766660/thomas-winter
The other person is Thomas Winter who died July 25th 1905 (I think) which fits with this death
1905 September quarter vol 9b pg 290
Thomas Winter 77 yrs
I think this could well be Thomas with his father which can be checked in censuses.
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Thomas Jnr 1861, 1871 with folks, brother and step-brother Richard SUGDEN:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7NS-99T
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBC6-3NJ
1851: Father as unmarried lodger in DOBBINGS household -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SPMJ-NFJ
Sep 1838 Hull 22 247
SUGDEN Richard
DOBBINS Harriet
1841: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQPZ-LDM
1851: Harriet SUGDEN is HEAD and married - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SPMJ-NFP
SUGDEN, MARY JANE mmn DOBBINS
GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 23 Page 353
SUGDEN, SARAH ANN mmn DOBBINGS
GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 23 Page 349
SUGDEN, ELIZA mmn DOBBINGS
GRO Reference: 1843 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 23 Page 344
SUGDEN, AMELIA mmn DOBBINGS
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in LEEDS Volume 23 Page 458
Death: SUGDEN, AMELIA 83
GRO Reference: 1929 J Quarter in BARTON UPON IRWELL Volume 08C Page 672
1861: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7N3-8PQ
1871: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBCD-TVT
1881: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27T-LGWZ
1891: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7KTX-XW2
1901: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9TV-5S4
1911: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBD-22L
SUGDEN, RICHARD mmn DOBBINGS
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in LEEDS Volume 23 Page 383
SUGDEN, THOMAS WINTER -
GRO Reference: 1852 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 381
SUGDEN, ARTHUR WINTER -
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 386
Note: She was in her 40s when she had Arthur.
I wonder if Richard Snr was a tailor - 1851: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SPMX-C23
Jamjar
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Thomas Winter death 1912 Leeds:
Cemetery Leeds Catholic Cemetery (Killingbeck)
BurialType
Forename(s) Thomas
Surname WINTER
Abode 9 Kendal Place
Burial (Month) February
Burial (Day) 5
Burial (Year) 1912
Age (Years) 59
Age (Months)
Age (Other)
Died (Month) February
Death (Day) 2
Died (Year) 1912
Birth (Year) 1853
Grave Type
Grave Section A
Grave Number 207
2nd occupant of A207:
Cemetery Leeds Catholic Cemetery (Killingbeck)
BurialType
Forename(s) Thomas
Surname WINTER
Abode 28 Cavendish Street
Burial (Month) July
Burial (Day) 28
Burial (Year) 1905
Age (Years) 77
Age (Months)
Age (Other)
Died (Month) July
Death (Day) 25
Died (Year) 1905
Birth (Year) 1828
Grave Type
Grave Section A
Grave Number 207
Brian
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That’s good - the right address too. :)
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Other Winter memorials for Leeds available.
Brian
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I can’t say thank you enough to everyone for all the great information. I will go through everything today and piece everything together. This is the best site that I have ever been on and appreciate everyone taking the time to help me. Jamjar, I was born in Scotland and now live in Canada. I just stayed up very late... I am so happy and thankful
to be getting all this information. 😃
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He married Winifred M Wainwright in October 1945.
I can’t find that he had any children.
Elaine
Have you searched FreeBMD?
No birth entires for the district of Wortley
There are four male and one female WINTER/WAINWRIGHT
births registered in Sheffield between Jun qtr 1947 to Jun qtr 1957
However there is another WINTER/WAINWRIGHT marriage entry in Jun qtr. 1950 Sheffield
so some of those children could relate to them
Use FreeBMD to see their full names https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
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Thank you. I will look right now.