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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: meadowbank on Thursday 23 July 20 20:17 BST (UK)
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I am trying to work out the surnames on this Scottish marriage certificate from 1874. The parents of the groom (John Walking) look like John Walking, labourer, and Mary Walking, maiden surname Mannerill.
I cannot find John Walking (father or son) on earlier records, nor can I find a Mary Mannerill, or anything similar, on any records.
There are various challenges: first, the bride and groom are illiterate so have signed their names with a cross; this means they must have told the registrar their names verbally rather than writing them down. Hence these could be phonetic spellings.
Second, I know that John Walking, the groom, was black and was almost certainly foreign. He was born about 1851 and is not in the 1871 census. In the 1881 census his name was recorded as John Walker, born in 'West India' and in 1891 as 'Spain, Naturalised'. [His wife Sarah Owens was born in Leith, Edinburgh, and I have her family background]
I've tried all sorts of searches on ancestry and findmypast without success. There is also a parish marriage record in the Catholic church, but it has the same spellings, albeit in Latin.
I would welcome any suggestions! For example, if he was of Spanish/West Indies origin, what surname might result in the phonetic spelling 'Walking'? Something like Joaquin?
And as for his mother, the surname Mannerill is virtually unknown, so what else could it be?
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Hi,
I'm afraid I can't really help, but maybe my musings might ignite a spark somewhere. ;D
I can't help but see an "e" on the end of the mother's MS, rather than "ll". Doesn't take us any further, though. ::)
Also, the other thing that occurred to me, if phonetic spellings are to be considered, is that Mainwaring is pronounced Mannering, so maybe her name was actually spelt more along those lines?
Just an idea...
Best regards,
Karen
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It certainly does look like
'Walking' and 'Mannerill' on the certificate.
Have you tried maybe something like 'Walken'.
Perhaps put 'Walk*' into whichever search engine you're using - some of them will then bring up any name that starts with 'Walk'.
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I agree with Karen - I think MS looks like Mannerile. The g in Walking is quite long and looks as if it extends down to meet the e.
Gadget
Problem is that the ls are quite loopy so that a second l could have overwritten the g above :-\
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".. I know that John Walking, the groom, was black " How do you know this?
Witnesses, 1874 marriage record.....John McMAHON Isabella McMAHON.......who are they?.....are they connected to the OWENS family?
Scotlandspeople births
WALKIN John 1876 South Leith
WALKIN Mary 1878 South Leith (is this your family?)
WALKIN James 1883 South Leith
Census 1881 - I see John and Sarah WALKER and son John, South Leith.
Census 1891 - I see parents John and Sarah WALKER , sons John and James at 8 Cable Wynd South Leith.
I do not see a death for Mary WALKER / WALKIN etc 1878 - 1881 Where is Mary?
Apart from the marriage record, 1874, what documents do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people named here?
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They have married in the Catholic church, South Leith.
This family would seem to remain in the same area.
Baptism records would be useful. Catholic baptisms will name godparents, who are often close family members.
That might lead to father John's family.
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Technically John Walking whatever country he was born in is either British or a Foreigner, West Indies or (the West) of British India he is still British. Well that is it in theory. Anything could happen.
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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
In answer to a few queries:
I know that John Walking/Walker b1851 was black through a newspaper report of him in 1884 being convicted of assaulting his wife 'A coloured man named John Walker ...'
However, their son, also John, was well known as a coloured footballer. I have his birth (Walkin) and death (Walker) certificates and loads of info about his life but nothing that sheds any further information on his parents. As a quick summary of his life (albeit with wrong dob) there is a wikipedia page about him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(footballer,_born_1878) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_(footballer,_born_1878))
The marriage witnesses John and Isabella McMahon (both of Redhall, Bonnington). They were married in 1871 as McMahon-Perry but I don't know what their connection was.
Mary Walkin b1878 died same year, registered as Mary Ann Walker.
As for the possible spellings of Walking and Mannerill, I have indeed tried all sorts of alternatives and asterisks without coming up with any leads. I am currently unable to do much with Scotlandspeople as their search rooms are currently closed, and Walker is too common a name for online browsing.
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"Apart from the marriage record, 1874, what documents do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people named here?
Interesting...for all that John and Sarah would seem to be illiterate, the names for children at birth are consistent....WALKIN. Who are the informants for these births?
There is not much here to work with, so anything you have is important.
Can you please list all the information on the birth record for son John. Everything please.
Newspaper account of assault, 1884....what newspaper...and date please?.
Addresses are useful. what addresses do you see....for anything associated with this family......Census....BDM.......appearance in Court........... anything?
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Mary Walkin b1878 died same year, registered as Mary Ann Walker.
Are you sure that the Mary Ann Walker who died 1878 is the same Mary? The death cert, which I looked at earlier today, has her parents as George Walker(seaman, merchant service) and Ann Walker, MS Rennie
Gadget
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Ok, thanks - my mistake about Mary Walker, clearly not the same.
As for other info:
The assault is reported in the Edinburgh Evening News on 30 August 1884. Just a paragraph.
John Walker's birth was registered as John Walkin on 20 June 1876 at 20 Smeaton Close, St Andrew Street, Leith. Parents John Walkin, labourer in sugar house, Sarah Walkin MS Owens. Informant was the mother, signed by her mark. The registrar was Gilbert Archer (same as for the marriage).
For John Walker's death in 1900, again the informant was his mother, signed by her mark. He died on 1 August 1900 at 5 Queen Street, Leith. He was single. Parents John Walker and Sarah Walker MS Owens (neither of them marked as deceased).
Addresses:
1874 marriage: father at Redford's Close, Leith; mother at Vinegar Close, Leith
1876 birth: 20 Smeaton Close
1881 census: 48 Lumsdens Court
1884 newspaper report: Coalhill
1891 census: 8 Cable Wynd
1900 death: 5 Queen Street
Although there are many addresses, they are all within the same small area of Leith.
The mother, Sarah Owens, was born in Glasgow 30 June 1851, with Catholic baptism; in 1861 census in Glasgow with parents James Owens, labourer at coal hill, b1821 Ireland; Mary Owens, b1827 Ireland. She appears to be a mill worker in Dundee in the 1871 census with her mother.
I haven't found either parent in the 1901 census, or their death records.
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Thank you for giving the information about dates and places.
What happened to James? -
WALKIN James 1883 South Leith
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Is it Mannsell? Or Mannesell
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Thank you for giving the information about dates and places.
What happened to James? -
WALKIN James 1883 South Leith
I don't know. The name is too common to research easily, but once the Scotlandspeople centres reopen I should be able to find out.
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"..There is also a parish marriage record in the Catholic church, but it has the same spellings, albeit in Latin."
And check for baptisms for their children at the same church.....addresses and names of godparents will be useful.
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You do not have death for John WALKIN...or for Sarah WALKIN nee OWENS.......son John died 1900......Mary (dau?) is unaccounted for....you do not know what happened to son James.
Why are you interested in this family?
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You do not have death for John WALKIN...or for Sarah WALKIN nee OWENS.......son John died 1900......Mary (dau?) is unaccounted for....you do not know what happened to son James.
Why are you interested in this family?
Sorry, but do people making a post have to state their reasons? I made a simple request about the names on a marriage certificate.
All I am trying to do is establish the background to the father of John Walker (1876-1900) the footballer.