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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: marrle on Friday 17 July 20 16:28 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Does anybody have a copy of the above looking to find the following names ;
Bonny/Bonney
Swarbreck
Crookall
Thanks Margie
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John Crookall aged 67 landlord,lived in parish 37 years
Alice aged 61 wife of John,lived in parish 39 years
Elizabeth aged 23 born in parish daughter
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Richard Crookall aged 29 years born in Parish a butcher and landlord
Jane aged 33 wife of Richard,lived in Parish ten years
Alice daughter born in parish aged 9
John son aged 8 also born in parish,
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Thomas Crookall aged 73 husbandman born in parish
John Crookall aged 37 born in parish also husbandman
Betty aged 33 wife of John lived in parish 15 years,
Thomas aged 14 son of John born in parish
Margaret aged 13 daughter of John born in parish
Mary aged 9 daughter of John, born in parish
Richard aged 7 ,son of John born in parish
William aged 5,son of John born in parish
Agnes aged 1 ,daughter of John born in parish
Betty Crookall aged 46,born in parish
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Betty Swarbrick aged 21 servant, lived in parish a year
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George Swarbrick aged 55 lived in parish 5 years
Eleanor aged 54 wife to George lived in parish 5 years
James aged 20 son to George and Mary lived in parish 5 years
John aged 16 son to George and Mary lived in parish 5 years
perhaps George married Ellin Hall of Inskip,in St Michael on the Wyre 10th August 1767
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Have you also tried looking at the Margaret Higgins database of Catholics 1607-1840 on the Catholic family history website?
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No Bonney mentioned in the Papist returns but I can see plenty of them in St Cuthberts Lytham church records
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Thanks Radcliff
Will check out the names tomorrow where are all my Bonneys ?? Yes I have all those at St Cuthberts most of them were Baptised in the RC church in Lytham from 1750 onwards so it seems strange that they are not listed ??
Clayton
Yes I have the database some \Bonneys are listed but none of mine
Your Bradley family any connection to the Carr surname
Thanks Margie
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Although Richard & Jane's children were included in St. Cuthbert's baptism register as most Lytham Catholic babies of the time were, they were actually baptised by the Catholic chaplain, resident at Lytham Hall. Their baptisms are in register of St. Peter R.C. Mission. (Transcriptions published in a volume of "Lancashire Registers" by Catholic Record Society and freely available online.) Lady Jane Clifton, lady of the manor was godmother to 3 of Richard & Jane's children, 2 of whom died young and were buried on the same day.
Richard & Jane's marriage is one of the earliest in the register begun by the R.C. chaplain. They also had a legal ceremony at St. Cuthbert's.
Mary, daughter of John Crookall, landlord, is on the Return with her husband & young children. Her husband was a servant at Lytham Hall at the time. Catherine Anderton, younger half-sister of Thomas Clifton, lord of the manor was godmother to Mary's eldest daughter, named Catherine in her honour. Cath Anderton and her brother (godfather to one of Richard's children , I think,) are on the Return at Lytham Hall.
John Crookall, landlord, died late 1767. I have a copy of his will. Mary was his main heir. Elizabeth got her choice of best bed, some other furniture and her choice of cow or heifer.
Richard and Jane were my ancestors. I've not been able to confirm a relationship between Richard and landlord John. May have been nephew & uncle? Richard was a posthumous son of another Richard. John Crookall left a small bequest to a daughter of a "Richard Crookall, late of Lytham" but the relationship of the late Richard's daughter to John wasn't stated.
Radcliff has added the other Crookall names while I was typing. John Crookall of this household may have been an executor of John the landlord's will.
Agnes Crookall was my 4xGGM. She married John Crookall, butcher and later landlord. Mary, one of their daughters married a descendent of John Crookall, landlord, through his granddaughter, Catherine, daughter of the afore-mentioned Mary of Papists' Return.
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No Bonney mentioned in the Papist returns but I can see plenty of them in St Cuthberts Lytham church records
Was it a complete version? 4 pages, 373 names. I only have a partial transcription with 194 names on 2 pages from Fylde branch of Lancashire FH & Heraldry Society.
Bonny names are on the page after Crookall. I did a search for Bonny in the copy on Hathi Trust Digital Library Website. I don't have a sub. so couldn't see the page. 10 hits for Bonny on page132. Lytham Return is pages 130-133.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015004183201
Mary Hampson was daughter of John Crookall, landlord. She was listed with husband James + daughters Catherine and Nancy.
Btw the Cowban surname below my posts was ancestor of Agnes Crookall but I don't know the connection. "Betty, wife of John" and mother to Agnes was born out of parish; I don't know her surname. Marriage was before Hardwicke's Act.
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For Maiden Stone,
Thank you so much for the information
Unfortunately St.Peters RC Records only start at 1750, especially the ones that are on line
I have Edward Bonney who married Elizabeth Crookall 1805 at St.Cuthberts, I presume Elizabeth would have been born c 1785.
Regards Margie
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My ancestors were Nicholas and Elizabeth Benson who are in the 1767 records at Lytham Hall. I don't have any Crookall or Bonney that I know of but then I still don't know who Nicholas and Elizabeth's son, William, married (so if you have any vanishing Anns born about 1730, I'd be thrilled!). Nicholas was the dogman at the hall and appears to have been born an Anglican as I have checked all alternatives.
I looked at the accounts at Lancashire Archives which have the records for the staff DDCL447. Might that have some information for you?
Did any of your Bonneys move to the Accrington area? There are a few later at Dunkenhalgh. If any of yours were servants they moved some distances round the country. Nicholas Benson's grandson Timothy became a lodgekeeper at Cleobury Mortimer.
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Thanks Clayton,
No Bensons that I know of will have to try and get to Preston as I know some of the bonneys worked at Lytham Hall.
My Bonneys were in Winwick, Wigan and St.Helens but I am sure we have a connection with the ones in Lytham
Thanks for your help Margie
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For Maiden Stone,
Thank you so much for the information
Unfortunately St.Peters RC Records only start at 1750, especially the ones that are on line
I have Edward Bonney who married Elizabeth Crookall 1805 at St.Cuthberts, I presume Elizabeth would have been born c 1785.
Regards Margie
Elizabeth Crookall was born August 1781. Birth is recorded as Betty in St. Cuthbert's baptism register.
Elizabeth was niece to my Agnes. Elizabeth was the only child of Richard, an elder brother of Agnes. Richard was aged 7 on Papists' Return. He was the second son named Richard, first one died very young. Richard married Alice Crookall on 2nd Feb. 1781 (R.C.) and again on 5th Feb.(Anglican, St. Cuthbert)*. Alice was possibly the Alice Crookall who was aged 9 on the Return but evidence is sparse. If it was the same Alice it means Elizabeth Crookall and my 3xGGF were double-cousins.
*I've noticed that Lytham Catholics liked to cock a snook at the marriage law then in force by having their Catholic wedding ceremony first and the legal, Anglican one later. Some couples visited St. Cuthbert's for their C. of E. marriage on the morning after their wedding night, others waited longer before doing the official part. The longest interval I saw was 6 weeks. Richard & Jane Crookall on Papists' Return had a lapse of more than a week between ceremonies. Jane married again after Richard's death, this time there was a gap of 5 weeks between the 2 wedding ceremonies.
An Edward Bonney was godfather to the 2 youngest children of Agnes. They were born after Edward & Elizabeth's marriage so I presume it was him.
I have a copy of Richard's will. He left almost everything to Elizabeth. There was a small amount of money to Elizabeth's eldest illegitimate son.
Births of children to Edward & Elizabeth Bonny in St. Cuthbert's baptism register were Alice (1806), "Jno" (7th Sept. 1808), Elizabeth (1810), Richard (1812). (Transcription on LANOPC)
Baptism of Edward & Elizabeth's eldest son in R.C register was James, "Jacobus" (7th Sept. 1808). (Transcription in "Lancashire Registers" published by Catholic Record Society)
There is a huge gap in Lytham R.C. mission marriage register for early decades of 19thC. There are also missing baptisms, most importantly for me, my 4xGGF Agnes (1765), some of her siblings and her grandson, John (c.1821) who trained for the priesthood at Maynooth and was vicar-general for 2 dioceses in southern England.
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You can download the 1767 book via this link (Excell, sometimes takes a while but it works )
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2020/01/check-margaret-higgins-database-for.html
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Thanks for that bevo.
Elizabeth Crookall's godmother was Agnes Crookall. Godfather was Thomas Crookall, probably eldest brother of Agnes.
Elizabeth Crookall's eldest son was Thomas Crookall.
St. Cuthbert, Lytham baptism register:
Birth 26th June 1800: Thomas Crookall son of John Edmondson & Betty Crookall.
A few candidates for John Edmondson, one had died the previous October. There was an Edmondson family whose father was huntsman at Lytham Hall. Edward Bonney, Elizabeth's future husband was employed as gamekeeper by Clifton of Lytham Hall. Coincidence or did Betty prefer the outdoor type?
The baby's godfather in R.C. register was Thomas Hamson, probably son of James Ham(p)son & Mary (nee Crookall). Richard Crookall (the butcher & innkeeper one from Papists' Return) had been godfather to 2 children of James & Mary Hampson.
Richard Crookall (7 years old on Papists' Return) and father of Elizabeth, paid for education and apprenticeship of his eldest grandson, Thomas Crookall.
Richard Crookall and John Crookall were born only 1 month apart, both turning 8 in 1767. Richard was a year younger on the Papists' Return. The list may have been compiled between their birthdays. Agnes was 2 in November 1767. A curate in another Lancashire parish put ages in years and months when he compiled the Return.
A witness at wedding of Edward Bonny & Elizabeth Crookall was another Edward Bonny. Possibly a cousin?
There were a few Edward Bonny births in St. Cuthbert's registers.
Birth 1776 Edward son of Robert
Birth 1777 Edward son of James the Younger
Birth 1778 Edward son of James
A burial 1777 Edward son of James
and a much later burial 1807 Edward aged 30, son of Robert & Grace.
The Catholic baptism register shows:
1776 Edward - parents Robert & Grace
1777 Edward - parents James & Elizabeth, godparents were Swarbreck, Richard & Ann
1778 Edward - parents James & Elizabeth, godfather Richard Swarbreck
Marriages at St. Cuthbert, transcriptions on LANOPC:
19th Feb. 1770 James Bonny & Elizabeth Eaton, Witnesses: C.L.L.?, Richard Malley, by licence. (Might 1st witness have been Crookall?)
24th Jan 1774 there were 2 Bonney weddings:
John Bonney of Lytham & Elizabeth Swarbreck of Kirkham, witnesses Wm. Walker & John Simpson
Robert Bonney & Grace Malley, both of Lytham. Witnesses Richard Malley, John Simpson.
(Robert & Grace had a Catholic ceremony the previous day)
Another Malley- Bonney marriage was Richard Malley & Mary Bonney, witness Grace Malley. (I didn't note date.)
Malley and Crookall families were connected further back. Grace Crookall married a Malley.
Was there a connection to the Bonny blacksmiths of Lytham, one of whom allegedly lived to the age of 102?
*** P.S. Sorry for length of post. I daren't leave in case I can't get back in. When trying to access the site today I've been getting a message: "Your connection is not secure. .... The connection used to load this site ISTLS 1.0 or TLL 1.1 which are outdated and will be turned off in future. When these are turned off you won't be able to load the site. The server should use TLS 1.2 or later."
There's a red warning sign & message at the top of this page in red type "Not secure" and https is in red and is scored through. ****
I know other people have had problems. When I tried to go from this thread to the forum to look for the other complaints I just got the same warning message. It seems I can access only replies to threads I've already replied to.
Will someone please report my post to a moderator and ask to have the P.S. part of it moved to the technical board or explain what I should do? as far as I know I can't report my own post. Thanks.
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No Bensons that I know of will have to try and get to Preston as I know some of the bonneys worked at Lytham Hall.
One of them is on Papists' Return with other staff at the hall.
James Bonny age 23, waiting man, born in parish.
He's immediately after John Lawrenson, groom of hunters.
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My Bonneys were in Winwick, Wigan and St.Helens but I am sure we have a connection with the ones in Lytham
Here's one Lytham Bonny with a St. Helens connection although she didn't need to leave Lytham to make it.
Quarter Sessions Petitions Preston Michaelmas 1809
Lytham. Order of filiation & maintenance of Betty, bastard child of Thomas Shepherd of St. Helens, coach-driver, and Peggy Bonny singlewoman. (Lancashire Archives)
(The Crookall's hotel was a coaching-inn. The other big hotel, Clifton Arms, was situated opposite. Convenient haylofts for amorous coachmen.)
A witness to wedding of Edward Bonny & Betty Crookall was a Peggy Bonny.
Marriage bond for Edward Bonny & Elizabeth Crookall is at Lancs. Archives. Both aged 24 according to the bond.
There's a will of James Bonney, gamekeeper, Lytham 1824.
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Maiden Stone,
Thank you so much for all the information you have sent me just sent you pm
Regards Margie