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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Quarryman on Tuesday 14 July 20 16:29 BST (UK)
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Trying to find the death of Annie Hughes in Caernarfon in the late 1890s. She was living with her two daughters, Annie Roberts, nee Williams (who married lodger John Henry Roberts) and Frances Williams. daughters from a previous marriage. They were living in Uxbridge Square, Caernarfon, until at least 1891. The Robertses moved to Liverpool in 1896/97 and I lost track of Annie Hughes.
Any help gratefully received.
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Where and when was she born
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Could this be her ? (From Carnarvon Traders) :
Ann Hughes 7 Prussia Street, Liverpool 18 OCT 1898 52
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Hi Rosie 99,
Born in Caernarfon. She was one of 16 children, and gives her home as Is Helen, Llanbeblig, at the time of her first marriage in 1845. She is not at Is Helen in the 1841 census and neither was her elder brother Robert. Bit of a mystery. They keep cropping up in my delving.
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Approx what year was she born
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Hi Rosie99
My best guesstimate is 1815-1817. She is "of age" on her wedding certificate.
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What about her ages on census, do they tie in with that
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Age on 1891 census is given as 67
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Even more confused as dates and ages don't make sense. However going down another path.
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Another brick wall! Started looking in 1841 for Griffith Williams (Ann Thomas' first husband) who is said on his marriage certificate to be a farmer of Dolwenith, Llanllyfni, and father William Williams, also a farmer, plus witnesses at wedding in 1845 - Ellen Williams and Ellis Williams. There are three Griffith Williams, but all seem too young to be widowed. Also looked for Anne/Jane Thomas, but can't find her anywhere. Apart from trawling the whole of the 1841 census, I can't see how I can find her or nail down Griffith Williams.
Any suggestions.
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Back on Annie Hughes - she may still be with us in 1895. The family was at no 2 in 1891
Mrs Hughes, 2, Uxbridge square, wrote asking the Council to put in a water supply at No. 12, and stating that she would pay the cost next May, and that she would sign an agreement to that effect. Ordered that water be laid on.
Carnarvon and Denbigh Herald 4th October 1895
The house was for sale in 1897, following an auction of household furniture etc in August 1897
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Hi,
There is a burial of Ann Williams of Dolwenith on 6 Jan 1875 age 59 (grave number 197) at Salem Chapel, Llanllyfni.
Is this of interest?
Alan
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Hi,
Some additional information from the Salem Chapel Booklet (1866-1992) that may interest you for the Dolweinith address. Burials -
12/1876 - Thomas Williams age 29 (0248)
2/1888 - Enid Roberts age 7 months (0634)
3/1889 - Aled Roberts age 6 months (0823)
9/1896 - Meredydd Roberts age 5 months (0892)
12/1896 - Cadfan Roberts age 8 months (0903)
7/1902 - Rice Roberts age 49 (0983)
1944 - Robert Jones age 70 (1363)
There are also burials for Ellen Williams; Ellin Williams; Jane Thomas and Ann Thomas but can you give an address or dates of birth so I can see if any of the entries may be relative to you.
Presumably if they are buried at Salem Chapel, Griffith Williams and his father William died pre 1866. The Gwynedd FHS booklet for the earlier period may be helpful to track them down.
Alan
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Thanks to all Rootschatters who have (and still are) helping me get back on track after burglary and subsequent fire destroyed most pf my research.Can I impose on your generosity one last time and asked if someone could give me the inhabitants of 2 and 12 Uxbridge Square, Caernarfon, in 1861, 1871 and 1881. Will be eternally grateful, and apologise for the imposition.
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I can do 1881 easily as I can search by address
2 Uxbridge Sq
John G. Davies 21 - b Bettws Garmon, private school teacher
Jane Davies 23 - sister, housekepper
David Hughes 23 - lodger, assistant schoolmaster
Catharine Jones 19 - servant
William Hughes 15 - scholar
Hugh Hughes 12 - scholar
George J. Johnston 13 - scholar
William Hemar 10 - scholar
12 Uxbridge Sq (all b Llanbeblig except as shown)
John H. Roberts 33 - prof of music, b Llandegai
Annie Roberts 28
John H.W. Roberts 3
A.E. Roberts 1 - daughter
Robert H.J. Roberts - 3 months
Annie Hughes 59 - widow. No relationship or occupation given
Ann Williams 20 - sister in law
Jane Jones 17 - servant
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I've been digging in the Welsh Newspaper archive instead. 1873 is the earliest I can find for either address - not sure if that's because of the newspaper on the Welsh database, or that's when they were newly built
No 2
I can see an HH Davies in 1873, and a George Siddons in 1879. The former isn't easy to track down. The latter is still in Caernarvon in 1881, an unemployed schoolmaster living with his wife & schoolmistress sisters in law (all from Yorkshire)
No 12
May 1875 - Mr. J. C. Getley, North and South Wales Bank (wife has baby)
Sept 1875
NORTH WALES TRAINING SCHOOL OF MUSIC, 12, UXBRIDGE SQUARE, CARNARVON.
PROFESSOR: MR JOHN HENRY ROBERTS (PENCERDD GWYNEDD), Pupil
of Sir W. Sterndale Bennett, Mus. Dr., M.A., D.C.L.; Associate of the Royal Academy of Music, London; Local Examiner, by appointment, of in- tending candidates to the Royal Academy Holds a first-class diploma from the above Institution; Composer of the Chief Prize Musical Composition, Cantata, "The Gorsedd Ode" at the Bangor Royal Eisteddfod, awarded twenty Guineas and a Gold Medal.
THIS SCHOOL has been established for the purpose of encouraging the study of music in the Principality, and of enabling ladies and gentlemen to obtain sound Musical Instruction. The Branches taught include- PIANOFORTE HARMONIUM ORGAN SINGING HARMONY COMPOSITION
The system of teaching is based on that of the ROYAL ACADEMY- OF Music LONDON. Composers Every advantage will be given to students anxious to excel as Pianoforte-players, Singers, and composers.
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Have found a useful site
1871
2 Uxbridge Square
Humphrey Davies Head U 29 School Master (employing 1 assistant) Llanddeiniolen
Mary Owen Servant U 25 General Servant (Domestic) Amlwch
William Cook Assistant U 19 Assistant Master SCOTLAND
Thomas Jones Boarder U 15 Pupil Llanddeiniolen
Richard Cadwalader Boarder U 20 Pupil Llanwnda
12 Uxbridge Square - familiar!
John Hughes Head M 69 Retired Master Mariner Llanddyfnan
Anne Hughes Wife M 51 Retired Master Mariner's Wife Llanbeblig
Annie Williams Daughter U 18 Retired Master Mariner's Daughter Llanbeblig
Frances Williams Daughter 14 Retired Master Mariner's Daughter Llanbeblig
Margaret J. Jones Servant U 16 General Servant Domestic CAE Llanbeblig
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Hi Mabel Bagshawe,
Thank you so much for all the information you provided. I am deeply grateful.
John Henry Roberts became a lodger at 12 Uxbridge square late 1874 early 1875 after he set up a music school in Bethesda following his graduation from the Royal Academy of Music. He subsequently got the widow Hughes' daughter Annie pregnant, marrying her in Bangor well away from prying Caernarfon eyes, and giving his address as Mynydd Llandegai, where the Roberts family home was. He later bought No 2 Uxbridge square and everyone moved there, the widow Hughes letting out No 12. The Roberts family plus sister-in-law Francis (not Ann as it is on the 1881 census) but not sure of the widow Hughes, moved to Liverpool in 1896/97. The widow Hughes seems to have been independently wealthy; I remember a newspaper cutting in a scrapbook (now gone) saying she had built three house in Caernarfon for sale. Don't know where the money came from as she came from a relatively poor family. Perhaps money from her late husbands.
Once again, many thanks for all your help.
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PS. Can't get my head around the Annie Hughs age discrepancies in varying census. To the best of my knowledge she was born in 1817. Annie's family, the Thomas', seem to have had a child every 12/18 months, and Annie being birn in 1817 fits in neatly.
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Hi,
1861 census at 130 Segoutium Terrace (is this the right spelling - finding it difficult to decipher) -
Griffith Williams age 48 Master Joiner employing 4 men born Caernarvonshire Llaniestyn
Annie Williams wife age 43 born Llanbeblig
Annie Williams daughter age 9 also born Llanbeblig
Frances A daughter age 2 also born Llanbeblig
Catherine Roberts servant age 17 also born Llanbeblig
Image on Ancestry
Does this help?
Alan
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Hi,
Not sure if you have this or not, but found on Carnarvon Traders (Parish Chest) the burial of Griffith Williams of Segontium Terrace age 53 - burial on 14 August 1867.
Alan
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So grateful, Tall Al. I can't tell you how much you have helped me. Thanks a million.
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Hi,
No problem - not sure where everything currently stands but if there are other "loose ends" we can help with just ask.
Alan
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1851? Pool St
Griffith Williams 37 - joiner, Llaniestyn
Ann Williams 35 - Llanbeblig
Margaret Williams 15 - Milldwrn (?), daughter, housemaid
Catherine G Williams 9 - llaniestyn, daughter
However this doesn't fit a marriage to a farmer in 1843
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I suggest that the place is 'Mellteyrn' , a neighbouring parish to Llaniestyn. A Margaret was baptised there to Griffith Williams, named as a labourer of 'Pennant'(?)/'Penrallt' (?) , and Jane, on 15/11/1835.
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Hi,
There is a baptism of Griffith Williams at Llaniestyn showing on Free Reg on 2 Feb 1813 to parents Robert and Jane. They appear in 1841 and 1851 censuses at Llaniestyn -
1851
Robert Williams age 72 Stone Mason
Jane age 67
Mary daughter age 32
(Baptism of a Mary Williams 24 June 1821 to Robert and Jane at Llaniestyn)
1841
Robert Williams age 60
Jane age 55
Griffith age 25
Elinor age 25?
Worth investigating further?
Alan
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Getting confused (and sidetracked) over Griffith Williams. His marriage (in 1845 to Ann Thomas) certificate says he was a farmer living at Dolwenith, Llanllyfni, and that his father was William Williams, also a farmer.
But in the 1861 census (thanks Alan) he is a master joiner, with his own business!
I wonder if he 'built' 12 Uxbridge Square for the family prior to his death in 1867.
Any chance of finding them in 1851?
Thanks everyone (massively) in helping me out on this.
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Hi,
I am struggling to find a Griffith Williams with father William in the Caernarvonshire censuses that tie in to Llanllyfni.
The 1851 census found earlier (Mabel Bagshawe) seems to tie in with the 1861 census and death I found in Segontium Terrace, so regrettably it looks like it could be a different family. The 1851 census details does not tie in with the 1845 marriage you mention -was Griffith single or a widower when he married Ann Thomas?
I tried to concentrate on Frances Williams to find the census details but on checking the GRO register for her birth the only likely candidate didn't show Thomas as her mothers name - if fact is was blank.
This gets stranger and stranger
Alan
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Hi Alan
Not strange but weird! Griffith Williams is stated as a widower on the marriage certificate I am looking at now.
My gut feeling is to go with the Segontium Terrace family as THE one. Daughters are right, Annie's age on the 1861 census ties in with what I know of her birth date (1817/18) despite odd ages in future censuses, my grandfather John Henry Roberts married Annie's daughter Ann, and can follow them right up to1901 in Liverpool. Full history.
Can't seem to find 1851 Caernarfon address from Mabel Bagshawe.
So many things that are inexplicable in this saga.
Regards
Bradley
Think I am going to have to forget Griffith Williams roots.
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Hi Bradley,
Don't give up!
Trying to Look at this from a different angle (working forward from William (a farmer) - only found one in Llanllyfni
1851 census at 62 Bron y Foel, Llanllyfni -
William William age 67 Farmer of 19 acres
Elinor - wife age 65
Both said to be born Llanllyfni
Found a baptism of Griffith Williams (with a father William and mother Elinor) at Pwllheli on 18 April 1814.
1851 census for Griffith and Ann at 95 Pool Street, Caernarvon -
Griffith Williams age38 Joiner born Llaniestyn
Ann age 35 born Llanbeblig
Margaret age 15 born Milllteyrn
Catherine G age 9 born Llaniestyn
Will look for a first marriage for Griffith as the children are probably not Ann's as they only married in 1845.
Keep going - perhaps a chink of light!
Alan
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I think that the mother of Margaret was called Jane. I cannot find a baptism for Catherine in either Llaniestyn or Mellteyrn. There was a baptist chapel not far from Mellteyrn, so they might have been members there and a baby would not have been baptised.
A Jane Williams was buried at Mellteyrn on 29/02/1844.
I think her home might be important : 'Llanllyfni late of Pennant"
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Hi Bradley,
Thanks to Huwcyn for the latest information. I thought Jane (Williams) had died in 1844 as the GRO has a death for her,, age 27 and that would likely fit the bill.
My current thinking is that she was called Jane Roberts but i will have to look into this more tomorrow.
Alan
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Just to note the address in 1851 & 1861 don;t actually have house numbers. The number on the left of the image is just an entry number
Have found a death notice - on 12 A8gust 1867, Griffith Williams, cabinetmaker, of 11 Segontium Terrace
1865
To be Sold by Private Treaty,
FREEHOLD HOUSE, situated in 11, Segontium Terrace, Carnarvon, containing two fine Kitchens, one Pantry, and Scullery, two Parlours, one large Sitting Room, one Double Bedroom, two Single ditto, thre fine rooms Attics. AIso, a YARD, with a DWELLING-ROOM attached, now occupied by the Cwmdyle Copper Mine Co, Apply to Mrs. GRIFFITH on the premises
Suggests they didn't live there that long before he died
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Hi Bradley,
Could this be Griffith Williams first wife? -
Jane Parry - baptised 5 Feb 1815 at Mellteyrn - with possible marriage to Griffith on 11 April 1834 at Llanystumdwy.
GRO shows a birth of Catherine Williams in 1841 with a mothers maiden name of Parry.
Alan
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Good morning Alan,
Think we are almost there. Still a few puzzles - labourer Llàniestyn, farmer Llanllyfni, master joiner etc Caernarfon?
Why was Segontium Terrace for sale in 1865'when Griffith didn't die until 1867? Where was Annie prior to 1841. She was not at Is Helen - the Thomas family home.
I am sure the answers are out there, but I think 99 per cent of the main story are in place
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Hi Bradley,
Yes I can think of a few questions for example who is the Ann Williams that died at Dolwenith in 1875 age 59? Also despite the age being so far out - why would an Ann Hughes from Liverpool be buried at Llanbeblig - was it because her first husband Griffith Williams was there? Was the age incorrectly transcribed? Only by getting certificates are the answers to be found.
Was Griffith persuaded to get a trade as his father didn't want him to follow at the farm after he remarried Ann in 1845?
Always many questions but never enough answers.
Anyway digest what you have and see if you have other questions that we may be able to address.
Kindest regards
Alan
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Hi Alan,
Got an 1841 census CD replacement this morning, but cannot find anyone remotely resembling my Griffith Williams (he would be about 27) in Llanllyfni, Llaniestyn or Lamystumdwy. Lots of pages illegible, so... There is a Griffith Williams (27) farmer with a 25-year-old Jane Davies (no relationships in 1841 census) in the same Lamystumdwy household, but... Shall cast the net a little wider. In the meantime have sent off for birth certificate copy for Griffith's second daughter Catherine, born 1841/42. That should provide some clues. Next stop parish registers.
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Hi Bradley,
I too have started to look at the 1841 census. First one was William and Elinor who were at Bron y Foel in 1851.
Found what I think are them, at Bron y Foel William William age 58; Ellin William age 50 and a Jane
William age 18.
In 1851 he was a Farmer in 1841 a Quarryman.
Have had computer problems but slowly recovering and hope to investigate the others shortly.
Alan
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Hi Alan
Also having problems - can't access Rootschat from my smartphonr. Keep getting message saying "this site uses an outdated security system" and is is unsecure with passwords, bank details etc exposed. Doesn't tell you how to fix it! Have high-end security on my mobile and computer.Can access Rootschat from computer! Possible scam?
Regards
Bradley
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Hi Alan,
Witrnesses at Griffith Williams marriage in 1845 were Ellen Williams and Ellis Williams.
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Hi Bradley,
I am having the same messages as you.
This will have to b my last response until Rootschat updates its security.
Alan
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Hi Alan
Hope this gets to you - no apparent problems getting on to Rootschat via my computer! Have reported Android smartphone problems to Rootschat.
Am in the process of getting Mary (Jane) parish register baptism entry as well as that of her elder brother Robert.
Still can't understand why she was baptised Jane (Perhaps Mary Jane) and married as Mary - there is no doubt they are one and the same person.
Will keep you posted.
Regards
Bradley