RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: BLSstory on Thursday 09 July 20 10:22 BST (UK)
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Good Morning !
I have found my family's births in St.Mary's/Clonmel Parish. Yet when I try to search for them in 1901 census, St.Mary's/Clonmel doesn't exist. Pleasse advise. Thank you. Barbara.
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I presume you have tried by name?
Is there a townland in the baptism records?
Does this help?
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=2295&county=Tipperary&civilparish=St.%20Marys,%20Clonmel
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Thank you for responding.
No townland was given in the baptisms. In Griffiths, I think I have the father narrowed down to 4. Those townlands are Thomas St, Shelmaden's Lane, Irishtown and Healey's Lane. It's the 1901 that is giving me trouble. When I type those in, I get nothing. Thanks for your help.
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Change the county to Waterford.
St Mary's is/was in or near to Irishtown.
Maggsie
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I just tried that and still nothing. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Is there any chance that by 1901 the parish was extinct, aka gone?
Or, I see Clonmel, not St.Mary's/Clonmel. Any chance they are the same?
Thanks.
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St Mary's Civil parish is in 2 RC Parishes
This the the Civil parishes for St.Mary's RC
https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=1102&county=&church_name=St.%20Mary%27s,%20Clonmel
This is the Civil Parishes for SS Peter and Paul RC
https://www.johngrenham.com/places/civil_in_rc.php?churchid=1103&county=&church_name=Ss%20Peter%20and%20Paul,%20Clonmel
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Do you have a name to search? Could we help?
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I would love you to help. This is so confusing to me. Thank you !!!
Michael Ryan and Catherine Keating have 4 children in St Mary's/Clonmel, Tipperary: James, John, Timothy, Maria:1835-1843. THEN, I discover that they actually had 3 more but these children got listed under St. Mary's/Clonmel, Waterford !! Brigid, Catherine, William, 1837-1849. That totally confused me.
Then I went to look for Michael Ryan in Griffiths. I find 4 possibilities in St. Mary's/Clonmel, Tipperary, living in townlands Thomas Street, Shelmaden's Lane, Irishtown, and Healy's Lane.
Next I tried to find all 4 of these in the 1901 census. Here's here I got really confused. There is no St.Mary's/Clonmel at all in the 1901 census. There's Clonmel alone, but isn't that a separate town somewhere else? What happened to St. Mary's/Clonmel?
I just want to find the family in Griffith's and the censuses and at some point the Revision books to see if the homestead stayed in the family. (I need to figure out who stayed and who is here in USA.)
Thank you so much for the offer to help. Anything you can offer will be greatly appreciated.
Barbara
:-)
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First you have to understand that there are 3 types of Parishes in Ireland
The Civil Parish which is usually but not always the same as the Church of Ireland Parish
St.Mary's Clonmel Civil Parish
https://www.townlands.ie/waterford/st-marys-clonmel/
Than you have the Roman Catholic parishes which are usually much bigger than the Civil or COI parishes
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1102
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Added to the confusion in this case is the fact all3 types of parishes straddle the border of counties Tipperary and Waterford.
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St.Mary's Clonmel is not a place it's a parish, for the sake of your family it is a Roman Catholic parish which includes among other places Clonmel town.
Your family lived somewhere in the parish, can you give us a date and name for some or all of the children so we can look at the record in the parish registry, sometimes we can pick up hints you might miss as we look at them so much.
Even better a link to the page on the NLI site
The St.Mary's in the Census is the Civil Parish
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As I posted earlier the RC Parish of St Mary's Clonmel is made up of two Civil Parishes, St Mary's and Inishlounaght
This is Inishlounaght as you can see it's quite a big area and your family could live somewhere in it or somewhere in St.Mary's Civil Parish.
https://www.townlands.ie/waterford/inishlounaght/
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Thank you. I posted names and dates on an earlier post.
How does that help me in the 1901 census though? After I go to Tipperary, what parish do I look in?
Thank you for your time.
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you need to search the census by street or townland or the names - not by parish
you can also search by the Electoral Districts or DED - Clonmel Rural, Clonmel East Urban, Clonmel West Urban etc
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We’re your family still alive in 1901 and more importantly living in Clonmel area?
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You gave names and a date range can you give one name and exact date please.
You don't look for parishes in the Census you look for townlands or streets, that is why we want to see the parish register to see if there is anything to give a clue where they lived.
Have you got anything after the 1901 Census?
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Nothing after 1901.
Ryans parents Michael and Catherine Keating
James 1835
Brigid 1837
John 1839
Timothy 1841
Mary 1843
Catherine 1845
William 1849
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I see - in indexes
James- 1835
Bridget - 1837
John- 1839
Timothy- 1841
Mary- 1843
Cath - 184william - 1849
As you have. Do you have any/all of them later?
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Who do you have in 1901?
Do you have their marriages?
Were they in Clonmel?
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John and Catherine come to Rhode Island.
I suspect that all of them may have come. But I don't want to spin my wheels looking for them here if they really did stay behind.
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Sinann, for the first time, your mention of a parish straddling Tipperary and Waterford gives me some clue concerning some of my hard to find Irish ancestry! I'll set about them again, I think - not that I've much hope, but one gave both places as where they were born, in different English censuses. Thank you.
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I think it is too difficult without information on the other siblings and parents.
Civil registration began in 1864 and you can search here
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
The earlier deaths are only indexed but marriages are online.
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I see - in indexes
James- 1835
Bridget - 1837
John- 1839
Timothy- 1841
Mary- 1843
Cath - 184william - 1849
As you have. Do you have any/all of them later?
Is there a month for any of them?
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John and Catherine come to Rhode Island.
I suspect that all of them may have come. But I don't want to spin my wheels looking for them here if they really did stay behind.
When did they travel to America?
Do they give anything for place of birth at any time other than Ireland, ie Waterford or Tipperary or anything else.
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Sorry, Sinann. I was in a rush. Here you are.
James- 1835. 3rd December https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632164#page/61/mode/1up
Bridget - 1837 17 May https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632164#page/76/mode/1up
John- 1839 25th January (can’t find yet in nli site)
Timothy- 1841 2nd May https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632164#page/104/mode/1up
Mary- 1843 30th December https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632165#page/13/mode/1up
Cath - 1845 5th December https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632165#page/31/mode/1up
William - 1849 20th February 1849 https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632165#page/57/mode/1up
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Thank you
What an annoying priest even when they have a big wide page they don't put any address on anything. Disgraceful.
The only way would be to find marriages for the children but looking for Ryan's in Tipperary, you might as well be looking for a particular grain of sand on a beach.
Only chance would be if the mother was named on the marriage in a church record but there are no marriages late enough on NLI and RootsIreland don't have them either. Wonder was the register lost.
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Ahh Waterford
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?churchid=1102&parish=St.%20Mary%27s,%20Clonmel
Yep there they are in Waterford on RootsIreland
https://rootsireland.ie/waterford/online-sources.php
I had looked in Tipperary.
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Thank you, everyone, for all of your help.
No one ever said this was easy!!
I hope that you all stay safe and that this pandemic goes away quickly.!!
:-)
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To all of the kind people who helped me yesterday.....
May I ask you one final question?
Attached is one of four hits that I got on Griffiths, for my Michael Ryan family in St. Mary's/Clonmel. All four have the same heading at the top of the page.
Yesterday, when I was searching the 1901 census for these families, I was using the street address as the townland. Now I see that I should have been using Burgagery-Lands as the townland.
Now my question: When I search the 1901 for anybody living in the Burgagery-Lands townland, I get 0 Ryans. Is that possible? Could it really be true that a mere 50 years after Griffiths, that all four families (potentially 40 people) have disappeared, or am I still doing something wrong?
Thank you, one more time, for your help.
Barbara
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Seems to be correct, have you looked where each of the Ryans were living on GV, the two I looked at were both in the basement of a house.
Most of the people living in the town would be transient tenants, some families could stay for years in the one house other might only stay a few weeks.
The people living in rural areas could be labourers with just a house and garden, they would move where there was work, the people who stay are the farmers. How many of the Ryan families on GV were leasing land?
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Hmmmm That makes sense.!!
Thank you.
:-)
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Don't forget there are two Civil Parishes in the RC Parish of St.Mary's Clonmel
The other civil parish has lots of Ryans living there in 1901
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pp7/
These are all Head of Family
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Interesting !!
Thanks !!
:-)
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The baptism for William in 1849 has (I think) Paupers written beneath it. It may be the Ryan baptism or the next one :-\
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Thank you. You have all been so helpful !!
:-)