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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: trystan on Tuesday 23 June 20 18:05 BST (UK)
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From the beginning of July, in about a week, many aspects of life in England are going to be looking more sort-of normal.
What a activities are you most look forward to?
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Well, as the Significant Other was identified as high-risk at the start, we'll still be keeping ourselves very much to ourselves.
At the moment I'm trying to work out if and when our Local History Group can meet again - most of our members are elderly, and the room we normally use isn't very big, so one metre distancing may prove a problem.
I'm very much looking forward to buying a decent pair of shoes, as my favourite pair have collapsed: and a pint in a riverside pub.
Things that I hope won't change: during lockdown I managed to persuade the afore-mentioned Local History Group to start a monthly newsletter (I've been pushing for this for two years!) and I'm hoping we can continue with this once we're back to normal.
Cati
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Something I still won't be allowed to do!!
I will be able visit my daughter and family, even stay overnight. But I won't be able to give my grandaughter a big hug, something I haven't done for nearly 4 months. And I will have to keep 1 metre away from them all at all times, even suggested that a face covering might be advised.
But it's a lot better than what we've been used to since 23 March.
Regards Margaret
Modified: I wish this had been brought in before said grandaughter returned to school. The family had all been at home for the past 3 months, she started school last week. So the risk has increased already when we meet up.
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A haircut not had mine done since December. I had surgery in the new year followed by lockdown so I was unable to get it done.
Regards
Panda
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A haircut not had mine done since December. I had surgery in the new year followed by lockdown so I was unable to get it done.
Regards
Panda
The week before lockdown started I was thinking about having my hair cut ( for the first time in ten years), but I don't think I'll bother!
Cati
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We are still wondering if it is possible to waltz, quickstep and tango whilst remaining 1 metre apart. ;D;D
Mike, and Mazi.
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We are still wondering if it is possible to waltz, quickstep and tango whilst remaining 1 metre apart. ;D;D
Mike, and Mazi.
The back sway in the tango could be particularly challenging!
(A move known to my parents, who taught ballroom dancing, as "Dip your head in my cocoa")
Cati
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I can't say that I'm ready yet to come out of hibernation fully. Up to now we've abiding by all the guidelines getting all our groceries by click and collect. We only open the front door to ourselves.
I went to the butcher's today again, for the second time. He has a "one in, one out" system. That was very good.
I imagine we have to ease ourselves back into near-normality. I must admit, it's a bit scary, but I understand that we need to do it.
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We are still wondering if it is possible to waltz, quickstep and tango whilst remaining 1 metre apart. ;D;D
Mike, and Mazi.
As a couple, who presumably live together, the 1 metre + rule doesn't apply to you does it? You just won't be able to take part in a Gentleman's Excuse Me. ;D
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I'm looking forward to getting to my static caravan on the coast. I didn't manage to open it up after the Winter, so everything is still covered and wrapped up. I will be just as safe there as at home, as the caravans are all further than 12 feet apart and the paths are wide enough to keep 2 metres away from anyone. I won't need to use any communal area as the caravan has a shower and toilet (well 2 toilets!). I can sit on the balcony or patio there and watch the sea. Bliss.
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It will certainly be strange to resume some sort of normal life again...
We've already seen our daughter and grandchildren in the garden at 2m distancing... but really be lovely forvthem to all come and stay overnight... it will be hard not to give them a cuddle though.... but just to spend time with them we'd love..
I'm not worried about going on holiday, visiting shops... would be nice to go to museum, galleries etc but think I'll wait some time before that happens.
Having a hair cut would be a treat...
Caroline
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We WERE looking forward to going out to local English Heritage and National Trust etc gardens, but now the 2 metre distance has been reduced to 1 metre and no requirement to wear face covering in public spaces, we no longer feel safe to go out after 4th July. Independence Day it may be for some but not for the elderly with medical conditions.
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I'm looking forward to getting to my static caravan on the coast. I didn't manage to open it up after the Winter, so everything is still covered and wrapped up. I will be just as safe there as at home, as the caravans are all further than 12 feet apart and the paths are wide enough to keep 2 metres away from anyone. I won't need to use any communal area as the caravan has a shower and toilet (well 2 toilets!). I can sit on the balcony or patio there and watch the sea. Bliss.
2 toilets. That's just showing off!! :D :D
Margaret
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We WERE looking forward to going out to local English Heritage and National Trust etc gardens, but now the 2 metre distance has been reduced to 1 metre and no requirement to wear face covering in public spaces, we no longer feel safe to go out after 4th July. Independence Day it may be for some but not for the elderly with medical conditions.
I'm sure it will be flouted by many, but the actual advice is still to keep 2 metres distance where possible, e.g. in outside spaces.
Where 2 metres is not possible, it can be relaxed to 1 metre +, as long as mitigation is made, e.g. face coverings, side by side rather than face to face etc.
So in the gardens, where there is usually room to keep apart, there should be no problem, face coverings won't be worn by many. These gardens are usually acres in size, easy to find somewhere quiet.
If you wanted to go in the house, I would expect the National Trust and English Heritage to set up one way systems etc. Government has mandated that it must be Covid secure. I would also expect them to enforce face coverings.
Having said that, we have been taking walks from our house over the last few months. Pleasant, not many people, all of them socially distancing. A few weeks ago we decided to drive a mile or so to where we used to walk before lockdown. A canal side walk, popular with young families and dog walkers, but never crowded. This time it was heaving with people, we haven't been back since.
A quandary for us vulnerable over 70s with health conditions. We will carry on as we have been doing for the past few months, certainly for the moment. We might see family indoors on a cold and rainy day, nothing much else will change.
Regards Margaret
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....caravan has a shower and toilet (well 2 toilets!). I can sit on the ......
Well having said 'it had 2 toilets followed by I can sit on...' I really dd wonder what you were going to sit on and see the sea?
Pheno
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With our borders still locked - until the infection rate in England falls drastically - we had news yesterday of a potential Air Corridor between the Isle of Man and Channel Islands (Guernsey in particular).
I might get a holiday after all! ;D
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There will be no major change for my Wife and I.
Coronavirus has not gone away, the BMA is concerned about the latest Government actions and we share their concerns.
Yes there are valid economic requirements to kick start the Country but for those of us at risk the risk has not changed sufficiently for us to change our present way of life.
Really missing our trips to the seaside to walk our dog on the beach and visit my family who live in the town, they are only 30 minutes away but they are at very high risk.
Stay safe, do what you know to be right for you.
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We have decided that we will continue the way we are for a while yet. We spend most of our time in the house and garden. We have ventured to a small market town a few weeks ago and it was horrible with queues everywhere and no atmosphere - and that was before shops were open. I don't like the idea of going to a pub or restaurant and giving them my contact details every time I go in.
We did venture into Dunelm at the weekend. We were told to follow the arrows which we did and found ourselves very quickly back in the carpark. I won't bother with that again.
There is nothing I want to buy in shops except groceries. I will continue to work from home because my employer is not planning to open fully until at least September.
So we will stay in lockdown and carry on doing what we have been doing for the past three months.
Rishile
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I would love to walk on a beach and collect sea glass, my favourite pastime.
In Scotland we are still on the ‘no more then 5 miles from home’
I’d also like to go out for dinner with my girl friends and have a good bleather.
Not to be negative but I have realised several things I used to do, haven’t missed and won’t be resuming :D
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My hairdresser phoned and I'm booked in for the 4th July. :) I have short hair and I've been trimming it myself, but can't wait for it to be done properly!
Unfortunately my main hobby apart from genealogy is choral singing and that's not allowed. Something that was cited as good for one's chest, breathing and mental health before covid, is now regarded as dangerous so we wait, as do churches as you can't sing in there either.
I was puzzled about a remark about cricket not being safe and it was the ball that was the issue. I'm not a cricket fan, but presumably all the bowlers having their own balls and sanitising before bowling and between contact by the fielders with said ball (s) isn't sufficient? Otherwise the players are fairly well spaced out.
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We're staying the same:
Letter from Medical and Nursing Colleges:
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2514
Add - list of affiliations of signatories, include presidents of Royal Colleges :
1House of Lords
2Royal College of Surgeons
3Royal College of Psychiatrists
4Royal College of Radiologists
5The BMJ
6Royal College of Physicians
7Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh
8Royal College of Emergency Medicine
9The Lancet
10Royal College of General Practitioners
11Royal College of Pathologists
12Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists
13BMA
14Faculty of Public Health
15Royal College of Nursing
16Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Glasgow
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Our Dentist just phoned us to set up an Appointment our checks which were cancelled back in April
Needless to say we are not going down that route for a routine checkup
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I'm not a cricket fan, but presumably all the bowlers having their own balls and sanitising before bowling and between contact by the fielders with said ball (s) isn't sufficient? Otherwise the players are fairly well spaced out.
Doesn't make sense - according to the guidelines re tennis
"Players from different households can now play doubles together as long as they stay two metres apart as far as possible, and small group coaching for up to six people (including coaches) can resume."
Surely tennis involves a lot of picking up the ball in probably sweaty hands? Given the material of a tennis ball I would have thought it was an ideal surface for the virus to stick to? Then of course you have the fact that Novak Djokovic has tested positive along with other players after organising that tournament!
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I was puzzled about a remark about cricket not being safe and it was the ball that was the issue. I'm not a cricket fan, but presumably all the bowlers having their own balls and sanitising before bowling and between contact by the fielders with said ball (s) isn't sufficient? Otherwise the players are fairly well spaced out.
Cricketers use just 1 ball between them ;D
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I was puzzled about a remark about cricket not being safe and it was the ball that was the issue. I'm not a cricket fan, but presumably all the bowlers having their own balls and sanitising before bowling and between contact by the fielders with said ball (s) isn't sufficient? Otherwise the players are fairly well spaced out.
Cricketers use just 1 ball between them ;D
and they spit on it :-X
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I'm overjoyed that we're finally moving towards normality again. I have a hairdressers appointment booked for 4th July - bye bye 2" grey roots :D - and afterwards I'm off to the nearest beer garden, weather permitting 8)
We're also contemplating a few of these drive-in concerts where you have an area adjacent to your parking space where you can sit, have a picnic, or even dance etc, as I've so missed hearing live music and I'm lucky that one of the venues is only 7 miles from my house.
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Given the material of a tennis ball I would have thought it was an ideal surface for the virus to stick to?
I don't know as fact, but would guess that this property might be one of the reasons why tennis is ok.
Using Trystan's "rainforest" analogy from the scientific thread the other day, a tennis ball is possibly one of the best ball surfaces to 'trap' the virus and make it harder to spread by touch. The cricket ball surface being smoother - and deliberately polished during play - would mean the virus is more easily dislodged onto other surfaces (e.g. fingers and clothes)
...and they spit on it :-X
An essential part of the game. ;D
The condition of the surface of a cricket ball is critical to the way it behaves in flight when bowled. I could imagine that a ball liberally dosed in sanitiser each time it is returned to the bowler might behave very unpredictably when bowled - being potentially dangerous, and possibly opening up the possibility of cheating by the creative use of sanitiser on parts of the ball.
So if I've guessed right, although the game could be made safe from a viral point of view, it could be physically less safe, and impossible to have a 'fair' game.
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I was puzzled about a remark about cricket not being safe and it was the ball that was the issue. I'm not a cricket fan, but presumably all the bowlers having their own balls and sanitising before bowling and between contact by the fielders with said ball (s) isn't sufficient? Otherwise the players are fairly well spaced out.
Cricketers use just 1 ball between them ;D
and they spit on it :-X
I suppose they could make all the players wear surgical gloves. After all the wicket keeper
wears gloves!
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Don't think I can remember "normal"....
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I suppose they could make all the players wear surgical gloves. After all the wicket keeper
wears gloves!
The gloves wouldn't help much - unless taken off before touching your face or picking your nose - they are just another surface which could be contaminated from contact with a contaminated ball.
I suppose it is harder to pick your nose when wearing wicket keeper's gloves though. ;D
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I will miss watching cricket though. WI squad are here but the Pakistan team are going down with the dreaded virus :(
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I suppose they could make all the players wear surgical gloves. After all the wicket keeper
wears gloves!
The gloves wouldn't help much - unless taken off before touching your face or picking your nose - they are just another surface which could be contaminated from contact with a contaminated ball.
I suppose it is harder to pick your nose when wearing wicket keeper's gloves though. ;D
That's why I can't see the point of gloves unless you can be 100% sure you won't touch your face whilst wearing them. Better to just wash your hands properly.
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How about playing cricket with a tennis ball? 8)
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I picked up that deep in the regs there are restrictions on shouting and singing loudly. The droplets travel further at full voice
Need a Fact Check
(I mean that there's a need to check the regs, not that the droplets travel further!)
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I picked up that deep in the regs there are restrictions on shouting and singing loudly. The droplets travel further at full voice
Need a Fact Check
(I mean that there's a need to check the regs, not that the droplets travel further!)
Haven't they banned singing in church?
(Had to correct that, as it came out as sinning! )
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I'm overjoyed that we're finally moving towards normality again. I have a hairdressers appointment booked for 4th July - bye bye 2" grey roots :D - and afterwards I'm off to the nearest beer garden, weather permitting 8)
only 2 inches, mine are more than 3". last done 7th Feb
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I picked up that deep in the regs there are restrictions on shouting and singing loudly. The droplets travel further at full voice
Need a Fact Check
(I mean that there's a need to check the regs, not that the droplets travel further!)
Haven't they banned singing in church?
(Had to correct that, as it came out as sinning! )
;D
It's covered in Section 2.1
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/the-visitor-economy#shops-4-1
There is an additional risk of infection in environments where you or others are singing, chanting, shouting or conversing loudly. This applies even if others are at a distance to you. You should therefore avoid environments that require you to raise your voice to communicate with anyone outside your household. All venues should ensure that steps are taken to avoid people needing to unduly raise their voices to each other. This includes - but is not limited to - refraining from playing music or broadcasts that may encourage shouting, including if played at a volume that makes normal conversation difficult. This is because of the potential for increased risk of transmission - particularly from aerosol transmission. We will develop further guidance, based on scientific evidence, to enable these activities as soon as possible. You should take similar steps to prevent other close contact activities - such as communal dancing.
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It's covered in Section 2.1
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/the-visitor-economy#shops-4-1
There is an additional risk of infection in environments where you or others are singing, chanting, shouting or conversing loudly. This applies even if others are at a distance to you. You should therefore avoid environments that require you to raise your voice to communicate with anyone outside your household. All venues should ensure that steps are taken to avoid people needing to unduly raise their voices to each other. This includes - but is not limited to - refraining from playing music or broadcasts that may encourage shouting, including if played at a volume that makes normal conversation difficult. This is because of the potential for increased risk of transmission - particularly from aerosol transmission. We will develop further guidance, based on scientific evidence, to enable these activities as soon as possible. You should take similar steps to prevent other close contact activities - such as communal dancing.
Oh dear. Better hadn't visit family later today. Was hoping for a freshly prepared sourdough pizza with a good variety of toppings of my choice, in the shade of a large parasol, drink in hand.
The only thing is, my hearing is practically non-existent at present. Everybody will have to shout for any meaningful conversation.
If they give me plenty of wine I'll probably fall asleep, so the problem will be solved. Now there's an excuse (if one were needed).
Regards Margaret
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..............and no morris dancing either ;D
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I've just been looking at a large self-catering cottage booking website. They are advertising holiday lettings starting from 3rd July, not just in England but Scotland too. How many people might be confused by the different dates in the different countries and assume the holiday letting agent knows best, so they go ahead and book.
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I was puzzled about a remark about cricket not being safe and it was the ball that was the issue. I'm not a cricket fan, but presumably all the bowlers having their own balls and sanitising before bowling and between contact by the fielders with said ball (s) isn't sufficient? Otherwise the players are fairly well spaced out.
Cricketers use just 1 ball between them ;D
I did know that, but was suggesting a way round it if they wanted to keep playing.
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hibernation definitely over in Bournemouth yesterday
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1688A/production/_113089229_daily-telegraph-front-page-.jpg
And in Southend
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/CC4A/production/_113089225_daily-mail-25-june.jpg
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hibernation definitely over in Bournemouth yesterday
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1688A/production/_113089229_daily-telegraph-front-page-.jpg
And in Southend
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/CC4A/production/_113089225_daily-mail-25-june.jpg
It's ridiculous isn't it? I feel a bit as if at least 50% of the country think it's all over and that the government are almost shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Get on with it, do as you like."
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Hurrah, just heard from my hairdresser, who has offered me an appointment on July 9th! :D
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Hurrah, just heard from my hairdresser, who has offered me an appointment on July 9th! :D
I had mine done last week! I have mine cut at home by Kim, who has been doing it for over 12 years. She came, fitted out with mask etc and did it in the garden! ;D ;D As I hadn't been out and neither had she, we decided it was safe.
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It's ridiculous isn't it? I feel a bit as if at least 50% of the country think it's all over and that the government are almost shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Get on with it, do as you like."
For large parts of the country it is "all over" (for the time being at least), or rather the rate of infection appears to be at a level where banning people from going to the beach is not going to make much difference.
The Government also needs to consider the potential for a second wave and the need for the majority of the population to go back into stricter 'lockdown' at some point in the future. It will be far easier to get people to comply with a second strict 'lockdown' if in the interim they have had the opportunity to live in a way approximating to normal.
Besides, a significant proportion of the population have always been sceptical about the need (and wisdom) of social distancing and isolation and even if the Government recommend an activity shouldn't restart there will always be some people who will do their own assessment of risk and decide it is "safe" - or as you say, they will believe they are entitled to "do as you like" regardless of any guidance or legislation.
There comes a point where it is pointless to try and enforce the rules.... at that stage you have to switch your efforts into preparing for the consequences instead.
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What the consequences may be, doesn't bear thinking about. I wonder if it's simply:
a) to get all those furloughed people back to work, and off the balance sheet, and
b) to hope all the expensive "oldies" are so desperate to get on with what's left of life, go out, and succumb, thus reducing the pensions bill
-No, it couldn't be the second, could it?
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Hurrah, just heard from my hairdresser, who has offered me an appointment on July 9th! :D
I had mine done last week! I have mine cut at home by Kim, who has been doing it for over 12 years. She came, fitted out with mask etc and did it in the garden! ;D ;D As I hadn't been out and neither had she, we decided it was safe.
You did a risk assessment and decided that was fine. Others would decide it was not. I suppose that’s what it is about.
hibernation definitely over in Bournemouth yesterday
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1688A/production/_113089229_daily-telegraph-front-page-.jpg
And in Southend
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/CC4A/production/_113089225_daily-mail-25-june.jpg
It's ridiculous isn't it? I feel a bit as if at least 50% of the country think it's all over and that the government are almost shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Get on with it, do as you like."
I am going to wait a while, I think. ;)
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I’m not quite in the ‘do as you like’ category, but I do think it’s ridiculous and unnecessary to impose the same restrictions on a 25-year old as on an 85-year old, so long as sensible steps are taken to prevent cross-infection between the generations. Even at its peak, relatively few hospital beds were taken up by otherwise healthy young people. The issue isn’t, and never was, about the level of infection – around 80% of people are asymptomatic – it’s always been about controlling it within the population that are likely to be adversely affected.
Having said that, I do question whether there was a deliberate strategy to send the virus into care homes – were the Government working on the basis that you can’t kill the same people twice, so if a second wave comes then the death rate will be lower by design?
Crass, cruel and impractical, I know - and I’m not actively suggesting we should do it - but if we were to continue a total lock down for those known to be most at risk, eg the elderly & those with certain pre-existing conditions, including obesity, then the rest of the population could pretty much get on with life without overwhelming the NHS. There would still be deaths, but not excessively so.
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-No, it couldn't be the second, could it?
Probably not.
The cost of paying state pensions to those people is peanuts compared to the total economic cost of having a second full lockdown for an extended period.
Not to mention the additional cost of running the NHS through a second wave.
And the likely (not insubstantial) costs of long-term treatment and benefits paid out to younger people whose health is permanently adversely affected by having had Covid. We don't yet know what (if any) long-term impacts this novel virus might leave people with - not even for the luckier ones who got away with relatively minor symptoms.
On that basis I'm fairly sure the Government would rather carry on paying (and taxing) the "oldies" (especially as part of that pensions bill will be another government's problem) - instead of picking up another immediate bill dealing with a second Covid wave.
The ultimate problem is the majority of the population simply won't put up with their lives being significantly disrupted until (if) a vaccine is widely available. The Government and their advisors said that right at the start (when 'herd immunity' was being discussed) but the "clever" people of the kind working for the BBC and the Guardian said there was no evidence for that and it wasn't true. :-X
Now we do have the evidence.
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Having said that, I do question whether there was a deliberate strategy to send the virus into care homes – were the Government working on the basis that you can’t kill the same people twice, so if a second wave comes then the death rate will be lower by design?
Interesting thought, but I'm not sure the logic works. If the care homes (concentrations of people most likely to die) were entirely sealed up (staff living on site, no visits at all, not even compassionate ones) then the overall death rate would be lower in the first, second and any subsequent waves.
I think the answer is far simpler. The images from elsewhere in Europe (not shown on UK media) of people being triaged and effectively left to die caused such alarm that the decision making became focused on "protecting the NHS". The media hype about lack of ventilators and ICU beds then led to a clear-out of hospital beds to prepare for armageddon.
The result - and I'm sure it was entirely unintended - was to send infected people out and into the very environments where the maximum risk actually existed.
Hindsight is great. We are talking about deaths in care homes now primarily because they make up a very significant proportion of the total number of deaths. In another scenario - say where the older people were not sent from the hospitals to care homes - then if the NHS had been overwhelmed and the total death toll was ~100,000 (but very few in care homes) the inevitable public inquiry would be examining why the "bed blockers" weren't moved out to maximise NHS capacity to treat the younger people who 'needlessly died'.
An event like Covid-19 is always judged through a prism manufactured after the event.
Crass, cruel and impractical, I know - and I’m not actively suggesting we should do it - but if we were to continue a total lock down for those known to be most at risk, eg the elderly & those with certain pre-existing conditions, including obesity, then the rest of the population could pretty much get on with life without overwhelming the NHS. There would still be deaths, but not excessively so.
This would only work in a society where each and every death doesn't result in the seeking of someone or something to blame. Unfortunately we've lost touch with the notion that death is a thing that happens to us all, that the best we can do is to postpone it.
It would be a very brave politician that enacted your proposal against that background. :(
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/major-incident-declared-as-people-flock-to-england-south-coast
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1. I'm going to lobby the BBC for a rerun of Hancock's Half Hour - the real one! An arm full!!
2. I'm looking forward to Alan Cummings playing the part of his namesake in 'Return To Barnard Castle'. Let's hope its as funny as the original.
3. I'm going to watch as BJ's nose gets longer and longer...and longer.
4. I shall pray that, in future, the NHS won't need protecting because it will have been reorganised to include social care and will be fully funded.
5. I must watch out for flying pigs.
6. I shall make a will stipulating that I should never, ever, not in a million years be placed in a British care home.
7. Rather, I will be moving from my current location here in Cloud Cuckoo Land and relocating to No 1, Sunny Side Of The Street, basically anywhere but Britain.
Oh, and
8. I must clear out the garage.
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It would be a very brave politician that enacted your proposal against that background. :(
I didn't propose it, I was merely hypothesising, but I agree with your comment about attitudes to death in general. I loathe it when people say things like "if it saves just one life, its worth it", as it usually means a permanent curtailment of the rights & freedoms of the majority for the potential benefit of a tiny few.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/major-incident-declared-as-people-flock-to-england-south-coast
And on BBC website too
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53176717
Further down there is a mention of Durdle Door again. They had to close access roads to DD again yesterday.
Some of the debris left by the "visitors" and cleared up by local volunteers yet again who are abused and spat at for trying to manage traffic.
https://www.facebook.com/cllrlauramiller/
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6. I shall make a will stipulating that I should never, ever, not in a million years be placed in a British care home.
Bit late by then, as by the time it is read you'll be dead! ;D ;D Perhaps let your relatives know now
that there is a clause in the will that says that they've put you in a care home all your money goes to the local Cats'Home.
What I can't understand is why on earth do people want to go and sit on a crowded beach in temperatures of about 30 degrees? My idea of hell.
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Fully agree. I never did like crowds, though I have been in plenty.
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Has this been posted, the Beta version of the Government site - easier to follow and compare with previous days?
https://coronavirus-staging.data.gov.uk/
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Unfortunately Covid19 will be back in force in the Autumn. Thanks largely to the bungling morons who put profit before life.
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I suppose we could think of this as a trial - IF cases don't rise dramatically in a week or so, then we will know that the chances of catching it are relatively low.
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Unfortunately Covid19 will be back in force in the Autumn.
How do you know that Redroger? I thought this was one of the unknowns about Covid19?
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On a cheery note, it was the second wave of Spanish Flu which did the damage!
Skoosh.
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How do you know that Redroger? I thought this was one of the unknowns about Covid19?
It is indeed an unknown. But if the first wave spread around the World due to people doing the things they normally do, then it is a valid hypothesis that people returning to doing the things they normally do may enable a second wave to spread around the World.
The difference however is that in the first wave very little was known about Covid-19. In fact several reports suggest Covid-19 was silently spreading long before the first Wuhan cases were reported and people simply weren't aware (me being one of them) that it could so easily spread rapidly through symptomless infection.
People now are generally being much more cautious that they were in November/December/January. As a result, the "it will happen again" hypothesis might turn out to be wrong.
Lots of people were predicting that the protests in London and elsewhere were going to cause a second wave - two weeks or so later I'm not aware of any news about localised or general increases in the infection rate. Perhaps it is still too early, or perhaps the concerns were misplaced.
The key thing to take from Redroger's post is that all he offers is criticism. There is no alternative strategy proposed.
It would be interesting to know if he has one, and whether any alternative strategy he has in mind has been adopted by any largish country (population >10M) and if so, what plans that country has to eventually allow people to return to a normal life.
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I suppose we could think of this as a trial - IF cases don't rise dramatically in a week or so, then we will know that the chances of catching it are relatively low.
I think there is something to be said for relaxing the restrictions now when pressure from seasonal flu will be at its lowest, and shortly before the schools will be on holiday anyway, rather than waiting until the Autumn when seasonal flu cases will be on the rise and children's education will be further impacted if we had to enter another period of 'lockdown'.
So perhaps it is better to have the start of a second wave (if there is going to be one) in the Summer months, rather than delaying it to October/November/December.
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The 'let's get the second wave over with' is fine if you decide to ignore all those tens of thousands of people who have been stuck in limbo since the end of March, awaiting life-saving surgery and/or cancer treatment. I reproduce below (with her permission) my daughter's post on another forum detailing her plight and her feelings. She's in her twenties, and today is her birthday. Not only is she in pain but she's also in despair at people's behaviour, and the total lack of concern for those who, like her, are desperate for the hospitals to commence surgery and treatment once again.
"It's my birthday tomorrow, and I probably should feel somewhat festive.
But I'm really not.
I am absolutely desolate.
This is far from how I'd hoped I'd see my year turn over.
The continual comments I see posing the very abrupt removal of coronavirus safeguards as some individualistic decision "Well just stay at home and take precautions and let other people do what they want" utterly ignores the impact you have on other people.
Even beyond the obvious fact that IT IS SPREAD BY PEOPLE, take my situation.
As most folks who know me know I've been waiting on some upper GI tract surgery since February, which was cancelled in March because of the need to free up resources for COVID-19. I was completely understanding about this even when the staff member telling me was extremely apologetic.
You know, you have to make sacrifices, it's a global pandemic.
It's been hard.
It's been cr*p.
In my initial illness I suffered from acute pancreatitis, which I have a high chance of developing again without surgery.
I've lost 18 kilos in weight, chunks of my hair have fallen out, and I have to go about my day in the knowledge that anything I eat could potentially send me on another trip to A&E.
And I'm by no means the only person in this kind of situation.
I have zero resentment towards the NHS. I was taken great care of when I was initially unwell in hospital, and I know that they are doing their best in extremely tough circumstances.
Who DO I resent?
People who are pushing and pushing for faster openings, faster reduction in distance, ignoring scientific advice and leaning on 'but the economy' argument as if another wave isn't going to tank it all over again.
The same people who've trotted out the idea of people like me waiting for treatment as a sympathy ploy numerous times.
Because here I am, months along, hoping to get a call for a reschedule, whilst I watch the R-rate creeping up.
And even aside from the needless death.
On top of the already needless death.
You know what hospitals will have to do again with a case rise?
Keep electives shut down.
Unwillingly signing me up for more months of trying to keep out of hospital, something I only wish was guaranteed.
But you know, people seem really pleased the pubs are opening again.
So.
Consequences be damned, I guess."
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Greensleeves
Your daughter's post is heart-rending. I, too, am waiting for a call for a hospital procedure, but for something fairly simple which doesn't have much impact on my life. Please send her our very best wishes and our hope that she will soon be recalled for the necessary treatment.
Gillg
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6. I shall make a will stipulating that I should never, ever, not in a million years be placed in a British care home.
Bit late by then, as by the time it is read you'll be dead! ;D ;D Perhaps let your relatives know now
that there is a clause in the will that says that they've put you in a care home all your money goes to the local Cats'Home.
What I can't understand is why on earth do people want to go and sit on a crowded beach in temperatures of about 30 degrees? My idea of hell.
I thought about that later - I'd have to make it a living will!! I might even check myself into a cats home: they seem to be better looked after than in some so called care homes! Maiow!!!
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The 'let's get the second wave over with' is fine if you decide to ignore all those tens of thousands of people who have been stuck in limbo since the end of March, awaiting life-saving surgery and/or cancer treatment.
This is wrong. Nobody has to be ignored. People returning to a more normal level of living (e.g. visiting a beach) is not incompatible with the recommencement of elective surgery.
Since we aren't going to eradicate Covid any time soon - and eradication would be essential if the NHS is to return to its old way of working - then what needs to happen is a re-configuration of the NHS so it is able to perform elective surgery with a reasonable level of safety despite Covid.
Many frontline NHS staff will need a bit of a breather to recover from the unquestionably traumatic experience of dealing with the first wave, but the system as a whole should already be undertaking the necessary re-configuration and preparing for a resumption of elective surgery without delay.
Your daughter's anger is understandable, and I'm sure we all sympathise with her, but I feel her anger is possibly misdirected.
The issue is not with people who want to return to a 'normal' life, the issue is the delay in getting NHS services reconfigured to enable elective surgery to get back up to speed. The 'R' level should be largely irrelevant to that.
We were able to get temporary hospitals 'built' in a couple of weeks... so what are the barriers to being able to perform elective surgery several months later?
From what I've read I suspect the issue isn't the people sitting on the beach, but instead people sitting in NHS management offices. The businesses that have stayed open and reopened have had to radically change the way they work to do so, the NHS now needs to do the same.
But aside from that, I do hope your daughter gets good news about her operation soon.
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I find it all so difficult to make an informed decision.
I appreciate how very important surgery being delayed must be so hard to bear. I spoke with two friends yesterday, one waiting for cataract operations and another awaiting an appointment with a spinal consultant. Their lives have been affected considerably during this time.
Today, I read on a church newsletter about 5 members of staff in a local primary school who have tested positive for the virus yet schools are criticised by some and recommended by others.
One of my friends has lost her confidence during this time and is quite depressed after living this recent reclusive life. She is too afraid to go out just for a walk down the street.
Somehow, there has to be a balance between the medical, physical and mental effects of this hibernation and individual risk assessment.
By asking people not to go out or meet up to protect one section of the community, you are putting another group at risk.
On a personal note, I have met with immediate family for walks - distanced - but will not be going far for a few weeks until there is evidence of any effects from the recent crowds.
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I wholeheartedly agree.
The pandemic should have made ministers sit up and take notice - at last - that the NHS needs a thorough overhaul from top to toe (but mostly top). How often have we heard during this crisis that the main problems have been right hand not knowing what left hand is doing and vice versa, and the consequent slowness with which any new procedures or necessities are put into place (or fail to be put into place).
I've worked in local government and have a fair idea how these things go - lets set up a committee, working group, panel (call it what you will - it all amounts to the same thing) and sit around a table (with copious amounts of tea and biccies) and talk an absolute load of balls about mission statements etc. These meetings seem to consist of people whose sole objective in their working life is to talk something to death, kick it into the long grass and make sure it becomes someone else's problem. Oh, and talk about it even more at election time so that the voters really believe something will be done.
We owe it to the frontline people who have had to cope with the worst of this pandemic to make sure that this NHS reorganisation actually takes place. We need someone to take charge who is not a politician and will not just say 'I consider this matter closed' when it doesn't go their way. I have no idea who could carry that load but he/she will need broad shoulders and a thick skin as well as compassion and common sense.
What was the name of that chap a few years ago who did a tv doc on reorganising the NHS? Jerry something - a businessman I think. I liked him.
That was me with my 'serious hat' on - normal service will be resumed asap. ;D ::) ;D
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As Nick said all the Nightingale hospitals were set up in weeks and they are now standing empty, with all the expensive equipment inside. Why can't all the covid cases be moved to them, so freeing up the hospitals for elective surgery and other medical procedures? As covid patients aren't allowed visitors, it doesn't matter how far from home they are!
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That’s a good idea. Would there be enough staff? Would staff have to be far away from home too.
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Why can't all the covid cases be moved to them, so freeing up the hospitals for elective surgery and other medical procedures? As covid patients aren't allowed visitors, it doesn't matter how far from home they are!
From what I understand there are three issues around resumption of elective surgery, all of them based on the increased risks if a surgical patient catches Covid during their treatment.
1) The risk of the patient already being infected and bringing infection into the facility.
2) The risk of staff having the infection and passing it on to patients.
3) The risk of the NHS being sued for millions if someone catches Covid and dies.
The problem is that moving Covid patients elsewhere doesn't significantly reduce these risks. But one of the things which is being done is to establish "COVID-light" facilities in which minimising the risks is attempted.
In theory it should be possible to deal with the first risk - by isolating and testing patients before and on admission. The second risk can be managed, but to an extent it will require some personal sacrifice by staff (e.g. self-isolating, enhanced social distancing).
But it does require the reconfiguration of NHS services as I mentioned in my previous post.
And I suspect the third risk is the one receiving most attention from NHS management.
With hindsight I wonder how many policymakers are regretting the loss - due to progress - of the distinction between 'General' and 'Isolation' hospitals? Or the amalgamation of local hospitals into super-hospitals. Post-Covid there is some re-thinking required.
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One of my friends has lost her confidence during this time and is quite depressed after living this recent reclusive life. She is too afraid to go out just for a walk down the street.
Somehow, there has to be a balance between the medical, physical and mental effects of this hibernation and individual risk assessment.
By asking people not to go out or meet up to protect one section of the community, you are putting another group at risk.
That is absolutely the key issue.
Personally I am quite comfortable being at home, I have no desire to go and sit on a hot beach and shopping is something I do for essentials only at any time. (And it does perhaps help that my local library service is providing free Ancestry access at home ;) )
But I do follow several forums other than Rootschat and have observed (not surprisingly) that Rootschat is somewhat more conservative in the approach people think should be adopted, in comparison to some of the other forums.
I don't agree with a lot of what is said on those other forums (e.g. objections to wearing facemasks), but I do appreciate the wide variety of views.
Dismissing people as "idiots" and "stupid" just because they have a different perspective on the situation suggests there is a two-way lack of empathy and understanding.
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Dismissing people as "idiots" and "stupid" just because they have a different perspective on the situation suggests there is a two-way lack of empathy and understanding.
Having a different perspective is one thing, but breaking the law isn't a matter of personal choice. If people want to go to the beach, then they should respect social distancing rules. They should use the public toilets (they were open in Bournemouth) not urinate and defecate on the beach and behind beach huts. But of course they have a different perspective on hygiene and decent behaviour and the rest of us should have empathy and understanding. A record number of parking fines were handed out for people parking illegally, but of course we must understand people must park somewhere and when the official car parks are full, they need to park across people's drives, restrict the highways, impede the emergency services, because that is their right and we must empathise with their difficulties. Three people were stabbed yesterday and needed hospital treatment (all from London according to Dorset police). A few weeks ago at Durdle Door beach, there were four injuries, mostly due to "tombstoning", an incident that required Lulworth coastguard rescue team, Kimmeridge coastguard, Hill Head Coastguard RT (Gosport), one of the Weymouth lifeboats, Dorset and Somerset Air ambulance and two SAR coastguard helicopters, one from Lee-on Solent and the other from St Asath in Wales. This is in addition to the local police and land ambulance service. Two casualties had to be taken to the major trauma unit in Southampton (a different county) because there was none available in Dorset. All those resources for four people in the middle of a pandemic, whose injuries were entirely down to their own behaviour. But of course I must have empathy and understanding because they have a different perspective on what is reasonable behaviour. At least this week Durdle Door didn't have any incidents like that, it was just litter and excrement they left.
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It is beyond understanding that some people behave in such a destructive and filthy way with regard to the beaches and there seems, at the moment, to be no consequence to their actions.
Members of the government have ‘warned’ that beaches will be closed and ‘warned’ about rises in infection if we don’t conform.
The PM has said today:
“it's crucial that people understand that on 4 July we get this right, that we do this in a balanced way, and we recognise the risks”
It’s 26th June today- we have a while to go until his easing of the lockdown should begin.
Downing Street has ceased the briefings and the PM has given details of where we can find the charts etc via a tweet. ::)
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I long ago accepted that this country is becoming full of selfish, uneducated morons who don't give a toss for anyone else but would be absolutely horrified if anyone did to one of theirs what they happily do to others.
But even I am disgusted if they really are doing their business on the beach and in people's gardens? Really? My cat manages to do his in his litter tray - mind you, he's probably more intelligent than half a dozen of these excuses for human beings put together.
What on earth is this country coming to? Even if the police did arrest them, they'd get off with a caution or a puny fine, so why should they bother? (and I don't care that I sound like Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells!!).
I have no empathy with these people - none at all.
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One of my friends has lost her confidence during this time and is quite depressed after living this recent reclusive life. She is too afraid to go out just for a walk down the street.
Somehow, there has to be a balance between the medical, physical and mental effects of this hibernation and individual risk assessment.
By asking people not to go out or meet up to protect one section of the community, you are putting another group at risk.
That is absolutely the key issue.
Personally I am quite comfortable being at home, I have no desire to go and sit on a hot beach and shopping is something I do for essentials only at any time. (And it does perhaps help that my local library service is providing free Ancestry access at home ;) )
But I do follow several forums other than Rootschat and have observed (not surprisingly) that Rootschat is somewhat more conservative in the approach people think should be adopted, in comparison to some of the other forums.
I don't agree with a lot of what is said on those other forums (e.g. objections to wearing facemasks), but I do appreciate the wide variety of views.
Dismissing people as "idiots" and "stupid" just because they have a different perspective on the situation suggests there is a two-way lack of empathy and understanding.
I totally disagree with your last statement
These people have nothing between their ears so no point in saying about Empathy and Understanding their actions have demonstrated that they care only about themselves.
Raves, cramming outside Liverpool's football ground when asked by the Club not to, and just look at the Beaches where they crammed themselves in like sardines and what rubbish these Morons left behind 20 tonnes on Bornemouth Beach alone.
It also dismisses all the hard work that NHS and critical staff have been doing these past few months as practically worthless to them.
As has been shown this last couple of weeks there is a massive breakdown in Social Caring and adherence of criteria that has been put in place for the the purpose of limiting the cases of CV19
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I would agree with most of what Nick said. The Government and some of the media have greatly exaggerated the severity and infectiousness of the current virus to the extent that some people have become absolutely and irrationally petrified believing that we are dealing with something akin to the Black Death. This is in itself scandalous as it is blighting the lives of many people. As more real data has emerged based on worldwide experience of this particular virus it is clear that it is not as serious a threat as at one time feared and indeed for much of the population the risk is very low. Despite this we still have unprecedented restrictions on our liberty rather than targetting protection and resources for those most at risk. After three months of relentless propaganda it is hardly surprising that very many people are rebelling.
As regards English beaches clearly those who behaved with little respect for the environment and the property of others deserve our condemnation but I would think that this is likely to be a very small minority. It is completely ridiculous and a gross misuse of language to suggest that all who go to beaches on a hot summer day are morons.
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Having a different perspective is one thing, but breaking the law isn't a matter of personal choice.
Agreed. But going out, even travelling to a beach (in England), is not against the law.
If people want to go to the beach, then they should respect social distancing rules.
Agreed. But failing to comply with social distancing "rules" is not against the law.
They should use the public toilets (they were open in Bournemouth) not urinate and defecate on the beach and behind beach huts. But of course they have a different perspective on hygiene and decent behaviour and the rest of us should have empathy and understanding. A record number of parking fines were handed out for people parking illegally, but of course we must understand people must park somewhere and when the official car parks are full, they need to park across people's drives, restrict the highways, impede the emergency services, because that is their right and we must empathise with their difficulties.
Either you've misunderstood, or you are deliberately misconstruing my point. The activities you describe in this paragraph are illegal and/or unlawful and/or antisocial at any time, the pre-existence of Covid has no bearing on their acceptability or otherwise.
In case it was unclear, my reference to "the situation" was in response to heywood's point about "asking people not to go out or meet up".
Criticising people for leaving their rubbish all over the beach is perfectly fair. Criticising people for sitting on the beach in a household group or 'bubble' and observing social distancing is unfair.
Some of the media coverage and comments about Bournemouth (for example) is tarring everyone with the same brush. Everyone on the beach is being treated as an "idiot" or "stupid", regardless of what they individually or as groups are doing. The coverage - as has happened many times in recent months - appears to be exaggerated or blown out of proportion, and is conflating many different issues.
Three people were stabbed yesterday and needed hospital treatment (all from London according to Dorset police).
What is the relevance of them coming from London? Stabbing anyone, anytime, anywhere is illegal. Travelling from London to Dorset doesn't make it any more (or less) illegal.
A few weeks ago at Durdle Door beach, there were four injuries, mostly due to "tombstoning", an incident that required Lulworth coastguard rescue team, Kimmeridge coastguard, Hill Head Coastguard RT (Gosport), one of the Weymouth lifeboats, Dorset and Somerset Air ambulance and two SAR coastguard helicopters, one from Lee-on Solent and the other from St Asath in Wales. This is in addition to the local police and land ambulance service. Two casualties had to be taken to the major trauma unit in Southampton (a different county) because there was none available in Dorset. All those resources for four people in the middle of a pandemic, whose injuries were entirely down to their own behaviour. But of course I must have empathy and understanding because they have a different perspective on what is reasonable behaviour. At least this week Durdle Door didn't have any incidents like that, it was just litter and excrement they left.
Jumping off a cliff into water of unknown depth is stupid and idiotic.
But the incident you describe happened nearly a month ago when the situation with coronavirus was very different.
And tombstoning at Durdle Door is not a new activity related to Covid:-
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17752731.men-jumped-durdle-door-warned-tombstoning-danger/
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After reading all this I'd really prefer to go back into hibernation ... or would it be aestivation? (Sorry, can't manage dipthongs) than have to deal with the real world of today!
TY
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Having a different perspective is one thing, but breaking the law isn't a matter of personal choice.
Agreed. But going out, even travelling to a beach (in England), is not against the law.
If people want to go to the beach, then they should respect social distancing rules.
Agreed. But failing to comply with social distancing "rules" is not against the law.
But both of these things SHOULD be against the law!
That's what happened in the Isle of Man - Emergency Powers were enacted; people who ignored the rules were arrested, possibly fined, and repeat offenders were gaoled.
Guess what! No covid-19 cases for 35 days!! ;D
Result: No social distancing anymore; pubs and bars open; hairdressers and barbers open; most swimming pools open; gyms open; most shops now open!
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Interesting read: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53192532
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Jumping off a cliff into water of unknown depth is stupid and idiotic.
But the incident you describe happened nearly a month ago when the situation with coronavirus was very different.
And tombstoning at Durdle Door is not a new activity related to Covid:-
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17752731.men-jumped-durdle-door-warned-tombstoning-danger/
This doesn't only happen on the south coast, there have been a number of incidents in North Yorkshire. In May a man suffered spinal injuries after tombstoning at Goathland, which led to a large scale operation. Yesterday another young man suffered serious injuries after jumping into the same water. On Wednesday another suffered leg injuries after jumping into the reservoir at Osmotherley. A friend of mine told me that last night there were numerous young men jumping into the sea from the pier at Saltburn. Never a good idea jumping into the North Sea. The situation with coronavirus may have been different a month ago but these people still have to be rescued if injured or get into difficulties in the sea, then treated at hospital. I get that they're bored and frustrated but as many of that generation like to say - 'Get over it' without risking others' lives.
As for "targetting protection and resources for those most at risk" (sonofthom) - how exactly? A good start would be to stop those who are lucky enough to have a lower level of risk from behaving so irresponsibly.
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The situation with coronavirus may have been different a month ago but these people still have to be rescued if injured or get into difficulties in the sea, then treated at hospital.
Of course, but they won't need treatment for their spinal injuries etc because of Coronavirus.
If someone argues that jumping off a cliff places a burden on the NHS and needs to be stopped by forcing people of a certain age/gender to stay at home and not go to the seaside then they are arguing for that to become a permanent feature of our law.
It only becomes a valid Covid-related argument if the emergency services and NHS are so stretched that they don't have the capacity to deal with any additional cases that aren't Covid infections.
Various reports suggest with the tailing off of Covid cases, the suspension of elective surgery, and people avoiding going to A&E, most hospitals are now substantially quieter than normal.
So whilst it is valid to say that jumping of a cliff is idiotic, adding "because of Covid" would need to be justified with some kind of evidence. I doubt that evidence could be found.
There is a really serious issue here. The original 'lockdown' measures were some of the greatest peacetime curtailments of rights ever legislated for in this country. There were many people outraged at what the Government was doing, referring to it as "house arrest", a "police state", and plenty of conspiracy theories circulated about how the measures were being introduced to permanently control the masses.
The Government could only introduce the required measures because (a) The population accepted they were necessary and (b) it was promised they would only be in place for as long as necessary.
If it is now argued that the controls should be kept in place for some undefined period of time until everyone is happy for them to be removed then you are arguing that the Government should break what amounts to a covenant that rights would only be restricted by necessity.
And the reason why that is such an important issue is that the next time the Government wants us to go into 'lockdown' it will be just as vital that people believe it is (a) necessary and (b) temporary. Otherwise observance of lockdown will be poorer, and the beneficial effect will be weakened.
It is the same principle as over-use of antibiotics. Use it unwisely and excessively and you'll find it doesn't work when you need it.
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Here in Wales there has been of late a series of incidents on beaches between Cardiff and Swansea involving youths gathering and partying. Last night this culminated in a large scale disturbance to which the police were called, two arrests were made and the beach cleared of people, but not litter, two tons of which was collected by local residents this morning. To say the least, locals are not best pleased.
Today, at his daily briefing, our First Minister, Mark Drakeford, was asked about this incident. His response was not one of condemnation of the behaviour and the people involved. It amounted to a threat that, should this type of behaviour continue, the relaxation of "lockdown" may not happen. Quite frankly I find this response, to threaten law abiding citizens, of which I am one, with extending their loss of liberty because of some congenital idiots, outrageous and I can tell you, Mr Drakeford, that should you take this course of action then I, for one, will no longer comply. It will be manifestly unfair to penalise the majority of the population of Wales who, by the way, have been compliant, for the sins of these idiots and who cannot comply even now, never mind in future.
I will not take this step lightly because I am normally a law abiding person, but I cannot accept that would be the right and proper course of action.
Furthermore, yesterday on the BBC Wales news a reporter was In Aberystwyth when he spoke to two blokes who had travelled from Birmingham for a day out in the warm weather. It wasn't clear if they had any family with them. When it was pointed out to them they shouldn't be there they seemed to think it was funny and even funnier when the reporter told them they could be fined. The response was that they would pay it!.
So, if there is any extension of "lockdown", I shall, in future, pick and choose what I comply with. Criticise me if you wish but I cannot accept this announcement as being just.
:)
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The situation with coronavirus may have been different a month ago but these people still have to be rescued if injured or get into difficulties in the sea, then treated at hospital.
Of course, but they won't need treatment for their spinal injuries etc because of Coronavirus.
If someone argues that jumping off a cliff places a burden on the NHS and needs to be stopped by forcing people of a certain age/gender to stay at home and not go to the seaside then they are arguing for that to become a permanent feature of our law.
It only becomes a valid Covid-related argument if the emergency services and NHS are so stretched that they don't have the capacity to deal with any additional cases that aren't Covid infections.
Various reports suggest with the tailing off of Covid cases, the suspension of elective surgery, and people avoiding going to A&E, most hospitals are now substantially quieter than normal.
So whilst it is valid to say that jumping of a cliff is idiotic, adding "because of Covid" would need to be justified with some kind of evidence. I doubt that evidence could be found.
I didn't say that and wasn't suggesting it, I was relating it to your own comment about the case on the south coast - "the incident you describe happened nearly a month ago when the situation with coronavirus was very different". I was pointing out that these incidents are still going on and Covid is still present.
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Idiots are not confined to Beaches.
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Idiots are not confined to Beaches.
What other locations do you have concerns about?
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I see this as a distinct Age divide. Youngsters who generally do not suffer severe covid symptoms being willing to take a fairly minimal risk in order to restore something akin to their previous way of life, and I don't blame them.
The older generation, possibly over 65's and those with underlying health problems, wanting to remain outside the remit of catching covid for as long as possible and actually not really living a life at all seeing as it consists of washing everything, quarantining it, remaining within the confines of house or garden etc.
I feel that the more the lockdown regs ease and venues open up, the more that youngsters can return to their previous life and the less likely there is to be an overwhelming strain on the few places that they can go now - the beach.
As for the older generation it seems that unless they begin to ease the restrictions they have placed on themselves it is going to be virtually impossible to return to any kind of normality, and they certainly shouldn't be trying to impose even more restrictions on the young. What are these older people going to do when all the support for shielding/staying indoors etc comes to an end?
Pheno
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The Welsh First Minister is spot-on, a second wave will result in further lock-down as has happened elsewhere in the world, however regretful a minority behaves, the only weapon he has this side of a vaccine.
Hissy fits & tantrums are not helpful, try common sense!
Skoosh.
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Pheno, I broadly agree with your analysis except for the fact that as one of the "older generation" I am very much in favour of restoring full freedom now. This would not prevent those who regard themselves as vulnerable continuing to take whatever precautions they consider appropriate; the rest of us can get on with our lives.
The science has progressed and changed greatly since the start of the three week lockdown yet we still have UK governments trying to control much of our day to day lives and in particular in a most cruel and heartless way micromanaging our social interactions with friends and family. If I give my daughter a hug I am a criminal! What an appalling abuse of power to criminalise normal family life.
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Yes sonofthom, i fall into the older/underlying health category, but am all in favour of restoring full freedom. Yes agree that those who wish to take precautions could continue to do so in whatever manner they are able to - but without upsetting the restoration of normal life for the rest of us, which actually seems to be contrary to what they are aiming for. So as not to upset the cart for themselves they seem to feel the need for everybody else to be restricted too.
I just don't understand how some people feel they are going to survive once shops start allowing less restrictive practices and public transport becomes more full as workers begin to return. The world can't just stop turning!
Plenty more I could say but won't.
Pheno
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Hissy fits & tantrums are not helpful, try common sense!
So true Skoosh. Hissy fits and tantrums about people going to the beach in hot weather won't stop people going to the beach. Especially as in England this time next week they will be allowed to do so virtually restriction free.
Common sense says the council should bring in some skips for the rubbish* and some portable toilets# to help ease the pressure on the limited facilities that are open.
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The Dorset Chamber of Commerce chief executive said "It would have been common sense to ask people to remain in their home counties while we recover from the crisis and to give places like Dorset time to prepare to welcome visitors back."
BCP Council leader, Vikki Slade, said the council had been "incredibly well-prepared" for the influx of beach-goers.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53190553
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Which of the above was it then?
The BCP council leader also said they have been having problems since May - so how much more time did they need to prepare for an influx of visitors in hot weather at the end of 'lockdown'?
For months people have been talking about huge growth in holidays and day trips in the UK due to flight restrictions and people now being more reluctant to fly. Summer 2020 has the potential to be a bumper season for UK beach resorts, in part making up some of the losses from earlier in the year.
The response from BCP and Dorset Chamber of Commerce to this golden opportunity?
DON'T COME HERE
::)
Common sense indeed.
*You won't entirely stop litter louts from dropping their rubbish wherever they are, but 'common sense' says providing bins or skips closer to where people are congregating at least encourages the semi-responsible to use them.
#With festivals and outdoor events cancelled the portable toilet hire companies must be desperate for work. With toilets in pubs and restaurants unavailable, and social distancing reducing the capacity of the facilities that do exist, then 'common sense' says councils should hire in additional facilities that are currently sitting in depots doing nothing.
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So infections and deaths are still fairly high, yet now the Government is relaxing quarantine rules when returning from some countries and lifting blanket restrictions on non-essential travel from 6th July.
My sister and family were due to go to Minorca at the end of July but a couple of weeks ago were able to swap it for Gran Canaria next July. She said she's glad they did that, otherwise if bans have been lifted, they would have had to have gone this year or lost their money! She said she wouldn't feel safe and I expect a lot will feel the same, but I doubt if insurance will pay out now if flights are allowed.