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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: ValJJJ on Saturday 20 June 20 17:51 BST (UK)
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My request is part of a long-standing search for a particular child, but I really need to decipher part of a St Pancras union register of children.
I have posted other bits from this register and associated records with success, so hoping someone can help here. I have posted the query before (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814225.msg6751129#msg6751129) but not in this handwriting section.
It is related to many threads about this family, but here's the context:
This children's record relates to a mother (passing herself off as a widow but in fact single) Mrs Campbell, with an alias of Madame Adair for her chiropody, masseuse, nursing work, who developed post natal insanity after a stillbirth and was in Dec 1901 admitted to St Pancras workhouse and committed to Colney Hatch asylum. She had three children and two were eventually admitted the workhouse when it was clear the mother was not going to recover (she died in the asylum in 1924). I have traced a wealth of info about the mother and the two children but the third child has been hard to trace. That story is for another thread!
So I am looking at the entry for the boy John Campbell born 4 Oct 1897, who was placed in care of his Uncle Norman Trevor Smith and his Aunt Kate (who was the sister of Mrs Campbell) living in Carlton, Notts. The other name, crossed out, is the boy's grandmother Mrs Ann Matthews plus a date. I cannot decide what else is crossed out - it looks like 'dec' which might mean deceased along with the date of her death. In 1901 she lived in Sutton Coldfield. I cannot find a death for John Campbell. Once the covid threat is much reduced, I plan to visit Birmingham archives to search for Mrs Matthews on electoral rolls etc, and death records.
For this request, I would just like to know what people think has been crossed out, and possibly why. Does it indicate the boy's death, the grandmother's death, or something else?
I don't think the boy did die as a recent DNA match between me and a descendant in New Zealand of a John Campbell, of the same dob, means he was probably sent off to Australia quite young. But that is for another thread that I plan to put on the Gloucestershire lookup board.
Hope you can help please.
Val
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It looks like 18th Dec 1902, but there is a word before the date that I can't make out.
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??????? Mrs Matthews gmother
???? 18 Dec(ember) 1902
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For this request, I would just like to know what people think has been crossed out, and possibly why.
Suggestion ...
now in c/o Mrs Matthews GMother
since 18 Dec 1902.
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Yes definitely gmother, and her name, and 18 Dec 02.
And oh, yes, hadn't thought of 'now in c/o...since...' It doesn't much look like 'since' but I suppose I was thinking about date/late/dec'd/dead and the person's handwriting is erratic to say the least.
In another part of the document it says:
Name and address of nearest relation if no parents.
Uncle Mr Norman Smith, Highfield House, Eastmoor Drive, Carlton, Nottingham. Gone away. No address 26.1.03
G.Mother Maternal. Ann Matthews. Baystone, Florence Rd, Chester Rd, n/t Birmingham. Widow. Lets lodgings.
So I thought the boy had gone away with the Smiths, down to Bristol, prior to their emigration (without him) to South Africa. But possibly he was handed over to grandmother and the dates would fit. But why crossed out? Perhaps on her death, whenever that was - I haven't found it for definite. In the 1901 census the grandmother (widowed, born late 1837/early 1938 in Cleverton) was with her youngest daughter, Alice Maud(e) Mary Crook, born 1882 in Calne, Wilts, plus her widowed daughter-in-law with that widow's 2 daughters. Plus one boarder.
The daughter appears as Maud in the 1891 and 1901 census, and interestingly the NZ John Campbell said he was born in Sydney (but no record of this name on his dob), lived in an orphanage and/or was brought up in a wealthy family by his Aunt Maud but fell out with his uncle (never named) so left home at 15. His backstory is very muddled and there is probably an element of truth buried in it. How he came to be first in Australia, as he claims, before NZ, is obscure. Not found him on passenger lists, child emigrant lists or any other list.
Alice Maud Mary turns out to be quite a common name combo for women born around 1882, and I have found some in records for England and Australia for married women but cannot be sure if any are the right one. Perhaps she emigrated with John C, but I haven't found a John C travelling with anyone likely. Or emigrated, put him in the workhouse or with another family, and sent for him later? Endless possibilities!
Some of my requests are cross referenced here, but there are quite a few more requests followingd different avenues:
JC in Australia query birth record
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=826991.msg6908584#msg6908584
shipping lines Argentina via NZ
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=828188.msg6922347#msg6922347
railway employee records
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=828317.msg6923455#msg6923455
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I think that the Bristol idea is a red herring, so I won't be posting on the Glos look up board, but will try the board related to Birmingham/Sutton Coldfield again.
Edit: My original post re Birmingham was here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=814225.msg6751129#msg6751129 and I need to review it to see if there's any more to be gleaned. More documents are being digitised and someone might have a few more ideas.
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I have another difficult bit to decipher, which I've attached. It's from the same document and is added below a long list of dates of board meetings and decisions regarding the two children who stayed in the system - the school (Leavesden), being boarded out, and training places found for them later.
Then at the end is this note about Alfred, which I have transcribed as:
Alfred enlisted in army and was to start with his company for Salonika on May 11th 1917
? ? to Miss ? Bunny, Donnington Sq, Newbury
? ? ?
I looked up Miss Bunny to discover two spinster sisters Eliza and Mary Elizabeth at Donnington Square in the 1911 and 1891 census, and at Northbrook St in 1881, with various relatives and servants. Whatever is the relevance of Miss Bunny to Alfred (the boy in question)?
Alfred had a lucky escape as if he'd have gone to Salonika much sooner, he could well have been slaughtered along with so many others.
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Miss M. E. Bunny was Hon Sec BO Com = Honorary Secretary Boarding-Out Committee.
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Aha, that explains the connection, but what are the words before Miss Bunny?
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what are the words before Miss Bunny?
Suggestion ...
Inftn obtd fr (= Information obtained from)
If he'd been boarding out, the Committee would have to tell the Guardians that he'd enlisted, and when, because he would be off their books from that date onwards.
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Thanks so much Bookbox.
How many years have you been studying Board of Guardians work, and bad handwriting?
Val
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Miss M. E. Bunny was Hon Sec BO Com = Honorary Secretary Boarding-Out Committee.
Miss M E Bunny, Secretary!
Top left
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3NL-KC5?i=43&cat=1370340
Is it Alfred going to Messrs Plenty & Sons?
Above him and first entry is his friend James Oakley, fellow boarder with the Wickens in Newbury in 1911. Interestingly, James was a foundling.
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Is it Alfred going to Messrs Plenty & Sons?
Yes of course.
Here he is in the St Pancras BG Register of Apprentices and Servants, 1902-1914
Campbell Alfred, Registered as Rimmer
His wages were to be supplemented by the Guardians for a couple of years
Two images
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3NG-W9NG-K?i=701&cat=1370340
That all started 3.3.11, but in the census that year Alfred was said to be at school?
Sister Violet's entry in next register
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3NG-W9G9-6?i=1058&cat=1370340
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Yes the whole story of this family is in that St Pancras admissions register, including Alfred's surname on his birth certificate, which is why I couldn't find it for years as he wasn't a Campbell.
I went to the London Metropolitan Archives and looked at all the registers in the flesh (well dust and decay) and looked at the committee minutes that aren't on Ancestry. Alfred was mentioned a few times - they paid for him to have his appendix out and to recuperate in a home. They also supplemented his wages at Plenty's:
STPBG/082/002 Boarding out committee signed minutes
At Clarendon Square, Mon 27/2/1911
Recommending –
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(2) That Alfred Campbell (14 ½, boarded out at Speenhamland, be placed in a situation with Messrs. Plenty + Sons, Engineers, of Newbury, Berks, and that his wages be upplemented [sic] to the extent of 5s. per week for the first year, and 2s. 6d. per week for the second year.
(Arrangements have been made for this boy to continue to reside with his foster parents, and he will receive 2s. 6d. per week wages for the first year, 6s. per week for the second year, and increasing to 10s. per week after the second year).
At Clarendon Square 5th May 1913
The committee recommends –
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That the Guardians continue to suppliment [sic] the wages of Alfred Campbell to the extent of 5/= per week for a further period of two months, the amount to be reduced to 4/= per week at the end of that time.
Amazingly well cared for, I thought.
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Although this refers to Ongar, I thought that might be an error and it is 'my' Alfred:
At Town Hall 6th May 1915
Rec-
That they have approved of the maintenance allowance in respect of Alfred Campbell being paid to the foster-parents during the time the boy was in hospital for an operation, in order that he might be given extra, and have his washing done, which are not supplied by the hospital authorities.
At Clarendon Sq. 15th May 1916
Rec-
That the sum of £1 be granted to defray the cost of travelling expenses of Alfred Campbell, boarded-out at Ongar, who has been sent to a convalescent home, Herbert Home, Bournemouth, after a recent illness.
STPBG/184/002
From 11/6/1908 to March 1930
NB elsewhere in the Speen Boarding Out committee minutes, it was noted that 4/6 per child per week was allocated for 1914, increased to 5/= in May 1914
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jonw65
I can see I'm going to have to explore LDS more - perhaps I needn't have gone to London to make notes, but it was exciting to see all the actual ledgers and discover the entries for Alfred, after spending many years (including pre internet) not knowing anything of my grandfather's life. But I didn't come across that ledger you referred to.
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Also my notes:
At Clarendon Square 8th Sept 1913
Rec-
That Violet Campbell (13), Boarded-out at Speenhamland, be transferred to a Training Home of the Metropolitan Association for Befriending Young Servants.
I love the name of that organisation.
I found her placement later in service with the Clemlow family, and then her marriage to Arthur Swinson in Leek, Staffs. Not sure how she would have met him - perhaps she moved to Leek with her job?
At least she is easier to find than some, with her names of Violet Annie Louise.
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Hi
It's wonderful to see original documents when you are able to, and going to the LMA is always fun. There is plenty of stuff there that isn't online.
But, yes, nice if you can find some of it on ancestry or familysearch and download it.
Ongar is a bit strange, but you are right, they seem to have taken great care with Alfred and and presumably his sister. I have mixed feelings about boarding out because we "lost" my grandfather's sisters who were b/out in Flitwick. I didn't have as much luck as you have at the LMA re the relevant committee.
I can see (work out!) from the NZ BDM site that John Campbell died 10.8.75, and that leads to his grave at Maunu Cemetery, Whangarei, on Billion Graves, but best leave all that now and wish you good luck with him.
John
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Certainly for Alfred and Violet, they appear well catered for, and thank goodness for the bureaucracy that revealed their early lives, which were a total mystery to all of us for years.
Alfred went on to become a marine engineer with Plenty's, served in the army, did various jobs after WW1, went and returned from the Gold Coast, and then developed his artistic skills in the 30s in a booming business (that went bust) painting huge publicity boards for the exterior of theatres in Soho to advertise films being shown. His children were sent to boarding schools. Eventually dying and buried in a pauper's grave. Rags to riches to rags.
Well, still haven't joined up the dots to connect my John Campbell with the NZ one. Hence requests to other look up boards! I am about to construct an essay for the Warwickshire board.