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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: cafetiere on Thursday 18 June 20 16:52 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have lots of ancestors in Lancashire and have wondered about whether they were Catholic families. There seem to be a lot called Francis in the 18th century and I wondered if this name was much used by non-Catholics. Am I overthinking?
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Hmm, is Francis a "Catholic name?" Is there any such thing as a Catholic name? What about Francis Drake and Francis Bacon?
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Francis is a saint's name but not necessarily Catholic.
My great great grandfather was called Francis and he was CofE.
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Francis appears on a few of my lines; all were CofE.
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Ah, looks like that 'theory' hasn't got legs ;D
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.... and my gt. grandfather was a European Saxon, his religion was German Lutheran and whose first name was "Franz" = Francis
I've always presumed the parents named a son after Francis of Assisi - the Saint who became associated with patronage of animals and the natural environment. It became customary for churches to hold ceremonies blessing animals on or near his feast day of 4 October.
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I would think the name Maria or Mary might be common among Catholics, eg. Mary, Queen of Scots.
:)
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I would think the name Maria or Mary might be common among Catholics, eg. Mary, Queen of Scots.
:)
Ooo, I've got loads of them. But, I just assumed most British Isles families would have, tbh - Catholic and non-Catholic?.
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If you want to know if your ancestors in Lancashire in the 18th century were Catholic, have you used the Returns of Papists for 1767? There are returns for other years, but that is the most detailed and especially in Lancashire. Also, if you look at the Catholic FHS website you may find useful records online. My Catholic ancestor born in 1693 in Church near Accrington was called Abraham, not a name I would have thought of as typically Catholic, but then he was called after his Protestant grandfather. That is another point, that people changed their minds about which church they attended, most often at marriage and you may find closely related people going to different churches.
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My husband's family were an English family in Ireland, protestant going back so far to 1649 and the name Francis has been repeated down the generations.
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Hmm, is Francis a "Catholic name?" Is there any such thing as a Catholic name?
There certainly is in northern Ireland, where only two questions are needed to find out whether you are orange or green: what's your name, and which school did you go to.
My Ulster son-in-law caused some consternation when he informed his parents that he planned to marry a Bridget - they asked if her surname was O'Flaherty or something. She wasn't Catholic, we just liked the name.
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Francis isn't solely a 'Catholic' name in Northern Ireland (or anywhere else for that matter).
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I think the further back you go the more likely you might get an indication of Catholicism from someone’s name, but I wouldn’t rely on it. These days anything goes.
My grandfather had the middle name Francis and his mother was brought up Irish Catholic. Her brother also had the middle name Francis. :) Her parents were from Wexford. I have no information about earlier generations.
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Hmm, is Francis a "Catholic name?" Is there any such thing as a Catholic name?
There certainly is in northern Ireland, where only two questions are needed to find out whether you are orange or green: what's your name, and which school did you go to.
My Ulster son-in-law caused some consternation when he informed his parents that he planned to marry a Bridget - they asked if her surname was O'Flaherty or something. She wasn't Catholic, we just liked the name.
My OH's late CofE grandmother born in the 1890s was from Sunderland. When OH informed her we had named our first born daughter "Bridget", she was horrified and burst out with the information that "Bridget is a servant's name".
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My ancestor was a Francois, and was one of the last French Huguenots to come to England in 1752. I never thought of Francis (and variants) as a Catholic name. As stated in an earlier post, a saintly name.
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I would think the name Maria or Mary might be common among Catholics, eg. Mary, Queen of Scots.
:)
Ooo, I've got loads of them. But, I just assumed most British Isles families would have, tbh - Catholic and non-Catholic?.
Lots of Marys and some Marias in my family and my husband's family and they were C of E or even dissenters.
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Having family in northern Ireland, I've grown up hearing the 'catholic name/protestant name' distinction - my dad will still respond to hearing a particular name or surname of someone in Ireland with the retort 'Oh that's a protestant name'.
But the thing I've found in researching my own family tree is that the distinction seems to get somewhat blurry the further I go back. My dad is very surprised at some of the names we have in our mostly catholic tree - but then I've also found evidence of a number of conversions which clearly complicates things. Sure, religion can be a fairly important factor in choosing names, but so can family tradition and naming children after relations. If you were living in mid-century northern Ireland as a catholic family, but one that had protestant ancestry only some two or three generations back, I guess it's entirely feasible you're still passing 'protestant' names down the family line.
My own personal theory, at least for Northern Ireland, is that the division between names became more stark at around the turn of the century and into the 1920s when relations between the two communities became particularly poisoned by violence and separation. I also think that people sometimes project that kind of thing back into the past - i.e. 'The way things are now are the way they've always been'.
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I have lots of male Franc(i/e)s in my tree on a couple of lines. These people were based in Banffshire, Scotland and Angus, Scotland. All of Church of Scotland (Presbyterian). I don't think there's a particular connection it being an only Catholic name. It might be a different story in different areas of the world, but I'm not sure if it's proof enough so to speak.
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My Catholic families in 18thC. Lancashire seemed to use traditional naming pattern - eldest children after grandparents, 3rd son and daughter after parents, subsequent offspring after uncles & aunts. John, Richard, Thomas, William, Ellen, Elizabeth, Jane (Jinny), Mary, and Ann (Nancy) were top names among my ancestors. Agnes, Grace, Isabella and Margaret also occurred several times in my families and in families in their Catholic circles, some of whom may have been relatives. As small, sometimes disadvantaged communities, living in a small town or rural areas, and consequently with a limited pool of marriage partners, there was evidence of endogamy (marrying within the tribe). This further reduced variety of forenames (and surnames). One set of parents, who were cousins to some degree, produced so many sons that they ran out of family names and called son number 8 Frederick after a member of the family of the lord of the manor, who were also R.C.
Theresa was used by a Catholic family in one community. That's a name which seems to have come from outside. (St. Theresa of Avilla? Empress Maria Theresa? Name of an ancestor or benefactor?)
One of my Lancs. R.C. families had a relative named Ferdinando. His mother was from Co. Durham and belonged to a family which contained a Ferdinando in most generations. I hoped to find a marriage between a Ferdinando and an Isabella but no happy pairing existed.
1767 Return of Papists is the best source for 18th C., as Clayton Bradley has said. My Agnes was on it aged 2, as was her future husband, aged 8. An earlier Agnes was on a Return from 1680s, with Isabella and Dorothy.
Some registers of R.C. missions in Lancashire survive from 2nd half of 18th century. Very few kept before then.
Catholics appeared in C. of E. registers. Marriage of course; every couple had to marry in a C. of E. ceremony after 1754. Also burials, as most people were buried in the parish churchyard. There may be a note in the burial register indicating or giving a clue that the person was Catholic or there might not. (Burial of a 5x GGM 1783 was noted "Papist" but that of a 5x GGF 1780 in same churchyard was not. Both were on 1767 Return of Papists.) Catholic babies may be in Anglican baptism registers when there was a tax on births or at other times when Anglican clergy were keeping records of R.C. families in their parish. Some curates kept a separate list of babies born to Catholic families, some included them in the baptism register. It's not clear in some registers which were R.C. and were actually records of birth rather than baptisms.
My Catholic ancestors in Lancashire, increased by Irish in last third of 19th century, retained traditional naming traditions for most of the century. The first identifiable "Catholic" name was Aloysius as a middle name in 1890s. Saints' names didn't catch on in my family until 20th century.
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Hmm, is Francis a "Catholic name?" Is there any such thing as a Catholic name? What about Francis Drake and Francis Bacon?
Also from same era, Francis Walsingham, Queen Elizabeth's "spymaster" and definitely not liked by Catholics. He was born at the time of the English Reformation. Francis Drake was a few years younger. Francis Bacon was born 1561.
Francis of Assisi was canonised 300 years before the English Reformation- plenty of time for the name to become established in England.
Francis de Sales (1567-1622) is a Catholic saint of the post-Reformation era.
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Thanks all for more replies. I remember a relative mentioning recusants once (and I didn't know what they meant then) so that's what has made me curious and then idly thinking if names would hint at anything.
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Francis Bacon was born 1561.
Alternative Francis Bacon born in 1909:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bacon_(artist)
;D
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I have a fair few Smallman ancestors in the Shropshire part of my tree and I've read that a great number of that family were apparently noted recusants. I've not found any in my tree yet - but given they're almost entirely state-mandated Anglican records, it makes you wonder how you would know. ;D
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I have a Paul Copeland in Co Durham born c1610, my ancestor. Paul was a Catholic name. Also I have several Michael's in the Sunningwell areas of Berkshire, and a Paul West of the 1500s is a possible ancestor. More Catholic names. Although may be they simply liked the names or had Catholic friends.
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Also I have several Michael's in the Sunningwell areas of Berkshire
The Michaelmas Feast was replaced by Harvest Festival. Catholics don't celebrate Harvest Festival.
St. Michael had 2 feast days, May and September.
"The Cult of Saint Michael the Archangel in Anglo-Saxon England" by Richard Freeman Johnson
"Saint Michael the Archangel in Medieval Legend" by Richard Freeman Johnson
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All the names people regard as Catholic, are simply saints' names as far as I am concerned. My husband's determinedly C of E family are already using Francis in Northumberland in the early 19th century and all the family boys' names turn up again and again in every generation, until at least the 20th century. What may not be generally known is that the names of any admirable Old Testament figures were candidates for use in Catholic Ireland in the 19th century. My cousin comes from an Irish family where Jeremiah turns up regularly until post 1900. It was his father's name too. I have an Irish Catholic ancestor whose name is recorded as 'Judie', presumably short for Judith. 'Tom' was another abbreviated form favoured by this particular priest. My own grandmother, born in Liverpool in 1882, was baptised Esther in the local Catholic church.
I always thought that other denominations used Old Testament names, not Catholics. I suppose I got that from Thomas Hardy's 'Far from the Madding Crowd', which I was forced to read for 'O' Level. The name Hezekiah stands out in my memory ! I have just looked him up and he was one of the kings of Israel.
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All the names people regard as Catholic, are simply saints' names as far as I am concerned. My husband's determinedly C of E family are already using Francis in Northumberland in the early 19th century and all the family boys' names turn up again and again in every generation, until at least the 20th century. What may not be generally known is that the names of any admirable Old Testament figures were candidates for use in Catholic Ireland in the 19th century. My cousin comes from an Irish family where Jeremiah turns up regularly until post 1900. It was his father's name too. I have an Irish Catholic ancestor whose name is recorded as 'Judie', presumably short for Judith. 'Tom' was another abbreviated form favoured by this particular priest. My own grandmother, born in Liverpool in 1882, was baptised Esther in the local Catholic church.
I always thought that other denominations used Old Testament names, not Catholics. I suppose I got that from Thomas Hardy's 'Far from the Madding Crowd', which I was forced to read for 'O' Level. The name Hezekiah stands out in my memory ! I have just looked him up and he was one of the kings of Israel.
It becomes a bit more complicated with Irish first names, as many are replacements for Irish gaelic names which were not allowed to be written in the registers. For example, Jeremiah was often what was written in registers for males who were called Dermot in everyday life. Judy/Judith, or Johanna was used for Siobhan.
https://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/diarmaid-dermod.php
https://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/siobhan-joan.php
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Well, the ones baptised in Liverpool in the 1800s were definitely known by the name recorded in the baptismal register. Family letters and paperwork still exist. My cousin's father was usually known as 'Jerry' rather than Jeremiah, but any possible Irish version of the name had been long forgotten. The family were originally from Cork. My grandmother's name Esther occurs again in the next generation in my own family. I have a cousin who was baptised Judith. The point I was making was that Old Testament figures could and can provide names for baptisms in Catholic churches. They are not saints, but respected Biblical figures and I assume this is why they are accepted. My mother was sent rushing from a church to a neighbour's in the 1930s because the priest had refused to baptise a child 'Cynthia'. The child's mother rapidly decided on Cynthia Patricia, which was accepted as it included the femiinine version of a well-known saint. Esther or Judith would evidently not have caused a problem.
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Joney, sounds like the parish priest from my childhood. He was very old then.
There are a few traditionally Catholic names of post-Reformation saints. Aloysius and Ignatius, Bernadette, Theresa. Older names used by my Irish families from Mayo included Austin (Augustine), Dominick, Bernard, Michael and of course, Bridget and Patrick. Monastic orders were named for Augustine and Dominic. Bernard of Clairvaux was a famous abbot, Benedictines - Cistercians.
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Yes, I did an A-level History course on the 12th Century Renaissance, put together by an FCJ nun in Liverpool and approved by the JMB. It was quite something, covering the monastic orders, art and architecture, developnents in theology, the political history too, including the Crusades. It awakened a fascination in me that has never died. I am still reading round the period and trying to get to some of the places mentioned. The same nun taught me in first year secondary. The first thing she said after doing the register was that most of our surnames showed our ancestors were from Ireland and that they had probably arrived as a consequence of the Potato Famine. I went home and pestered my mother to write down what she knew. It was about 12 years later that I recorded all she said and started work. There is no substitute for a teacher who loves and is enthusiastic about their subject.
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The first thing she said after doing the register was that most of our surnames showed our ancestors were from Ireland and that they had probably arrived as a consequence of the Potato Famine.
I'm glad this thread is still going and has developed into an interesting discussion. Joney's comment sounded just like my history teacher (nun), I'm almost wondering if we went to the same school :D
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My great grandfather's first name was Patrick, a sure indicator in Scotland that he was Catholic. However he and all of our family were Church of Scotland! Historically the names Patrick and Peter were interchangeable in Scootland so although christened Patrick my great grandfather was usually known as Peter. I think that Patrick, an old Scottish name, probably fell into disfavour with the waves of Irish Catholic immigration into Scotland where the many Irish Patricks resulted in the name being associated with Catholicism. Just shows you that you should be wary of making assumptions about names.
Similarly Daniel was an old name in our family and it tends to be associated with being Catholic in Scotland although perhaps not quite as rigidly as Patrick. Interstingly Daniel and Donald were interchangeable names in Scotland so my most recent Daniel was actually christened Donald!
Confusing!
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My great grandfather's first name was Patrick, a sure indicator in Scotland that he was Catholic. However he and all of our family were Church of Scotland! Historically the names Patrick and Peter were interchangeable in Scootland so although christened Patrick my great grandfather was usually known as Peter. I think that Patrick, an old Scottish name, probably fell into disfavour with the waves of Irish Catholic immigration into Scotland where the many Irish Patricks resulted in the name being associated with Catholicism. Just shows you that you should be wary of making assumptions about names.
Similarly Daniel was an old name in our family and it tends to be associated with being Catholic in Scotland although perhaps not quite as rigidly as Patrick. Interstingly Daniel and Donald were interchangeable names in Scotland so my most recent Daniel was actually christened Donald!
Confusing!
I think it was simply due to confusion, as one of the Gaelic forms of Patrick was Pátair
Just found this....
http://medievalscotland.org/problem/names/padraig.shtml
Quote from above:
"In modern Scottish Gaelic, Patrick exists in several forms: Pádruig, Páruig, Para, and Pádair or Pátair. This last form led to confusion with English Peter, and the two names were often treated as equivalent in the 18th and 19th centuries ".
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Peter has been an important name in one of my Irish families for 200 years and 5 generations. I have cousins and 1st cousins-once-removed called Peter on both sides of Irish Sea. A Peter in Ireland has a brother Patrick. We call one brother by the English name and one by the Irish. One Peter had unofficial middle name Francis, possibly added at Baptism or Confirmation. Family history revealed that I had a great uncle Patrick. None of his many nephews had Patrick as first name although one had it as middle name, again probably added at church as it's not on birth registration.
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Quote from Joney Yes, I did an A-level History course on the 12th Century Renaissance, put together by an FCJ nun in Liverpool and approved by the JMB. It was quite something, covering the monastic orders, art and architecture, developnents in theology, the political history too, including the Crusades. It awakened a fascination in me that has never died. I am still reading round the period and trying to get to some of the places mentioned. The same nun taught me in first year secondary. Quote
Joney, that sounds like Sister Cecily at Bellerive. I remember her doing an A-level of her own devising on Abelard and Heloise.
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That's the lady ! I did my A levels in 1972.
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I went to university in 1970 but as I'm the eldest of six and four sisters also went to Bellerive, I daresay you would have known one of us. I didn't do history A-Level in the end because I also wanted to do Latin, French and English but some of my friends did. I love history, though.