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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: gnorman on Tuesday 16 June 20 11:45 BST (UK)
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Hi all, I have a relative, Thomas Logan born in Ireland between 1811-1822 (it differs between the 1851 & 1861 Census) and is listed in the census and his daughters wedding certificate as a Tailor. I took a chance and ordered the only death certificate I could find which I thought may fit the bill as he lived in Manchester.
It doesnt fit exactly as he is listed as a Beer Retailer in the death certificate which lists him as aged 51 at his death on 22nd March 1870. The Thomas Logan in this certificate committed suicide and was living at 36 Backturner street, Shudehill.
I wondered if any article may exist in the paper which proves or disproves this connection to me. My Thomas was married to Julia (or Judith).
Many thanks, Luke
T
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Not much help :(
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Hi, I have a similar problem with an ancestor of my husband called James Connor, he is with his wife and daughter in 1851 and is listed in the 1855 Manchester directory as a cabinet maker in the same street as he was living in 1851. Then he just disappears.
No trace of the family in 1861, although there is a child of the correct age, initials only given, living at a Catholic Convent near to where the family were living in 1851. She married in 1867 aged 15, even though she said she was 18! His wife gave birth to an illegitimate child in 1862 and thanks to a Rootschatter, she was shown as paying rent at the address she was living at the time in from 1864-1868. She died in 1868.
There are so many James Connors in the Manchester area who died from 1855 onwards, but I can't get all the death certificates. The other thing is that his younger brother also disappeared around the same time, so I wonder if they both went back to Dublin where they were born. Their own father re-married in 1857 in Liverpool with all the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church, so you would assume his first wife had died. However, I wonder, as I can't find a death for her, if she and her 2 sons just up and left for Ireland.
I wonder if this was a common thing that Irish people didn't find England (Manchester and Liverpool) as good as they expected and just went back home? Could be what happened to your Thomas Logan.
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1861 has a Thomas Logan age 42 Beer House Keeper with wife Jane at Mill Street, Manchester
RG09/2934 f51 p23
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Do you have
his the wife and children of your Thomas Logan in 1871
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I am struggling to find Thomas in 1851.
Which daughter married and when please
I assume this is 1861
Thomas Logan 50
Julia Logan 44
Edward Logan 17
Onora Logan 12
Margaret Logan 7
Ellen Logan 11 (mistranscribed - should be age 4)
Ann Logan 2
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There is this one in 1851 where Thomas was born 1822 but it seems to be a different family to the 1861 I posted. In both Thomas was a tailor
Name Age
Thomas Logan 29
Judith Logan 28
Patsy Logan 10 (male)
Edward Logan 4
Ann Logan 1
Robert Oledeah 66
Mary Reed 59
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I know they are tenuosly linked but those are the 2 census I have. I also had a wedding certificate for Thomas' daughter Ellen Logan born 1855 and married Thomas Entwistle in 1876 in Bury (father Thomas Logan, Tailor).
Maybe Julia and Thomas did just move home, I cannot find a death for Julia Logan either.
Thanks, Luke
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Julia Logan, 60, widow, born Ireland, a boarder in Manchester in 1871
piece 4042 folio 110 page 35
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD6B-113
Boarding with William and Anne Cooke. But could Anne be her daughter? :-\
Though this marriage is over a year later, 17 Nov 1872, at Manchester Cathedral
William Cooke
+
Annie Logan, 23, father Thomas Logan, Tailor
Residence for both 3 Bank Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSNB-633?i=82&cat=40069
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There does not seem to be much similarity between those 2 census returns other than Thomas was a tailor. All birth years are very different.
Which of Thomas’s children is your ancestor?
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I would think it possible that these are the same family
I assume this is 1861
Thomas Logan 50
Julia Logan 44
Edward Logan 17
Onora Logan 12
Margaret Logan 7
Ellen Logan 11 (mistranscribed - should be age 4)
Ann Logan 2
There is this one in 1851 where Thomas was born 1822 but it seems to be a different family to the 1861 I posted. In both Thomas was a tailor
Thomas Logan 29
Judith Logan 28
Patsy Logan 10 (male)
Edward Logan 4
Ann Logan 1
Robert Oledeah 66
Mary Reed 59
Julia/Judith often found as alternatives in Irish records
Ann - Hanora/ Honora could be heard as Onora
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But would there be an Ann in 1851 who turns into Onera/Honera/Haora in 1861 with a sister Ann age 2. That was the main point I was wondering about.
Unfortunately the address on the marriage of Annie in 1872 her address is 3 Bank st but they were not there in 1871.
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I wondered that too :)
Lancashire BMD and GRO shows birth of
Ellen Logan 1857 mmn Higgins
Margaret Logan 1854 mmn Higgins
I can’t yet see Ann who is 2 yrs in 1861
Manchester Catholic Records https://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php show that Julia Higgins is the mother of Ellen Logan in 1857 and Ann in 1860.
Thomas Logan is shown as father to both plus Margaret in 1854
I can’t see a birth for a female Logan abt 1849 :-\
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I could not see a birth reg either but the Annie who married in 1872 was age 23. Confusing
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It is puzzling. If my theory was good, there would be a Logan/Higgins birth in late 1840s for Ann/Onora.
There is, though, a gap between Onora and Margaret so maybe a second relationship for Thomas :-\
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I see there are several posts/threads about the family so most of this is probably known to Luke.
Maybe be best to hear what he thinks. :)
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There's a death of another Thomas in 1870
June 1870 Manchester 8d 194
Logan, Thomas
age 44
Bury has been mentioned
June 1877 Bury 8c 317
Logan, Julia
age 51
Whoever those two are, they have the same approximate year of birth ;D
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Thank you everyone, my relative is Ellen Entwistle nee Logan. Despite lots of searching and lots of help here on different aspects of the family I cannot confirm with any certainty exactly who is who other than Ellen. I will send for the certificate you mention jonw65.
You guys far out weigh me in your knowledge and I thank you for your help.
I will plough through all this and see what I can substantiate.
Luke
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Don't rush into anything though...check out all you can!
Can't see a burial of the Thomas who died in June qtr 1870, age 44. Age not the best of matches!
It was registered in April and according to Lancashire BMD in sub-dist St George.
If St George, could it have been the Thomas Logan who had been in Williamson Street, at number 8 ?
He was in the rate books for a couple of years, 1869 image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6P5V-CH?i=39&cat=1134050
Would we expect to see him in 1870 if he died there in April? :-\ Unless that chap just moved.
Murphy at number 8 in 1870
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6DS9-PZ6?cat=1134050
1871 census it's John Ford and his wife Mary. Both from Galway with a daughter called Julia.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDXM-32D
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Thanks for letting us know which one was your relative Luke.
It may (or may not!) help with research
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for info (I assume this is the right family)
1881 living in Oldham
Name Age
Thomas Entwistle 28
Ellen Entwistle 24
Abraham Entwistle 3
Elizabeth Alice Entwistle 1
ENTWISTLE, ABRAHAM LOGAN
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in BURY LANCASHIRE Volume 08C Page 471
ENTWISTLE, ELIZABETH ALICE LOGIN
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 632
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There's a death of another Thomas in 1870
June 1870 Manchester 8d 194
Logan, Thomas
age 44
Bury has been mentioned
June 1877 Bury 8c 317
Logan, Julia
age 51
to narrow that death a bit
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1877
Surname Forename(s) Age or Date of Birth Year Sub-District Registers At Reference
LOGAN Julia 51 1877 Heywood Rochdale H/35/87
Heywood was where grandson Abraham was born
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Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1877
Surname Forename(s) Age or Date of Birth Year Sub-District Registers At Reference
LOGAN Julia 51 1877 Heywood Rochdale H/35/87
Heywood was where grandson Abraham was born
Well done, Ann!
Thanks to your info we can see that Julia Logan was buried at Heywood Cemetery, 5 June 1877
Not sure of the address, ...... Buildings
Age 51
It says Wife of Thos Logan
Section D Grave 298
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3JM-V44V?i=614&cat=1003686
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Also got an Edward Logan buried there, 18 Sep 1876
Age 29, he was a Tailor
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3JM-V7K6?i=592&cat=1003686
Death reg
Sep 1876 Bury 8c 288
Loughan, Edward
age 29
I am not certain who this man is, or if he is relevant, I just mention it ;D
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Thanks to your info we can see that Julia Logan was buried at Heywood Cemetery, 5 June 1877
Not sure of the address, ...... Buildings
Age 51
It says Wife of Thos Logan
Section D Grave 298
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3JM-V44V?i=614&cat=1003686
[/quote]
It looks like Wolstenholme Buildings.
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It looks like Wolstenholme Buildings.
Thank you. Yes it does, now you mention it!
John
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A great find :)
Presumably Edward is the son in earlier census.
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actually that Edward fits well with the 1861 census. Looking at the image his age is difficult to read but it looks like the same as the 4 (also mistranscribed) for Ellen making his age 14 not 17 and therefore his birth year birth year 1846/7 - the same as in that death posted by Jonw65
on the other hand it is also the same as the Edward in 1851 son of Thomas & Judith!!!
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Yes, I agree :)
Good fun, isn’t it. ;)
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Presumably Edward is the son in earlier census.
Hi
I think Luke believes Edward is around later, and he may be right, because I honestly don't know who that one is!
Personally, I think Luke might be safer getting the Julia Logan death certificate from 1877, and seeing what it says before thinking about the Thomas one.
John
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Hi everyone, thank you all for your hard work here.
Jon I'm not sure about Edward - I found (with help) a possibility for him on the 1911 Census
'1911 Census possibility Withington Workhouse, Didsbury. Edward Logan, Patient, aged 66 (lunatic from 65), Widower, former shoe maker, birth place unknown' - I do not have any evidence for him though so it could easily be this Edward instead (and my heart is leaning towards Edward Logan, Tailer.
I have been looking through the burial pages supplied by Jon, Lancsann & Heather Julie - there are more people in the grave but no Logans. There is no mention of them being public graves (as there are on many of the graves). The people are;
D 153
James Taylor, son of Thos Taylor, 9 months, of Bow Lane, buried 19th May 1877
D 298
Thomas Cunliffe, Tailor, 36, of Half Street, buried 7th April 1877
Mary Keefe, daughter of John Keefe, 11 months, of Temple Street, buried 7th April 1877
Annie Mc Lighe, daughter of Edw Lighe, 13, of (Same address as Patarick McGann), buried 19th April
Stephen Leonard, son of Patrick Leonard, 4 months, of Bank Top Street, buried 21st April 1877
Patarick McGann, labourer, 41, of ??? Court, buried 3rd May 1877
James Cunliffe, son of Thos Cunliffe, 4, of Half Street, buried 5th May 1877
Catherine Mulloy, daughter of Martin Molloy, 2.5 yrs, of WolstenHolme Buildings, buried 5th May 1877
This second grave must be a public grave though mustnt it?
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Hi
Yes it must be a public grave. I failed to find any graves registers, obviously didn't need them ;D
Are you not concerned that it said Julia was the "wife of Thos Logan"? I know that the possible Julia in 1871 was a widow.
Clarify that - concerned regarding the other 1870 Thomas death I mean.
John
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Having said that theres a few groupings;
Thomas and James Cunliffe have the same address
Annie and Patrick share an address
Catherine and Julia share an address
Where it says son / daughter for each person most of the first names seem to be abreviated so I'm guessing Jon that Thos is Thomas (finger crossed) - the Thomas Cunliffe buried here for example seems to be the dad of James Cunliffe but his grave lists him as the son of Thos Cunliffe.
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Jon, this all seems very confusing but the Thomas Logan I began this thread with seems to me unlikely to be my Thomas.
Does anyone else think it strange too that they are all buried in such a short amount of time. Esp James Cunliffe and Catherine Mulloy, buried in the same grave and on the same day - is that normal for a public grave?
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Hi
Let us know how you get on with any certificates, if you order any.
Throw in this! Is it connected?
Baptism of Maria at Ahascragh and Killosolan, Galway, 25 Oct 1843
born on the 19th
parents Thomas Laughan or Laughon (as transcribed) + Judith Higgins
Image
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633859#page/39/mode/1up
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I would do as John suggests and look at the certificate for Julia first, it’s a much more unusual name and you are more likely to be rewarded for your efforts.
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I've ordered Julia's certificate. I will make sure I keep you updated when it comes through.
Jon, another record to ponder. Thank you and thank you all!
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Hi
Let us know how you get on with any certificates, if you order any.
Throw in this! Is it connected?
Baptism of Maria at Ahascragh and Killosolan, Galway, 25 Oct 1843
born on the 19th
parents Thomas Laughan or Laughon (as transcribed) + Judith Higgins
Image
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633859#page/39/mode/1up
Oh that looks very interesting. Good find. :)
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Thanks! I was looking for Edward really, but haven't found a baptism for him in Ireland or a birth in England. Nor have I found anyone like him in the 1871 census :(
John
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Jon, this all seems very confusing but the Thomas Logan I began this thread with seems to me unlikely to be my Thomas.
Does anyone else think it strange too that they are all buried in such a short amount of time. Esp James Cunliffe and Catherine Mulloy, buried in the same grave and on the same day - is that normal for a public grave?
Epidemics such as typhus regularly killed many people in an area over the period of a few months. In a way just like any genealogists of the future will see this current pandemic
I think as far as Julia being described as ‘wife’ was not uncommon on gravestones as that was her main ‘role’ (for want of a better word)
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I have spoken to the council looking after Heywood Cemetery and they have confirmed that this is a common grave as you'd suggested Jon. So there is no grave stone and 13 interments in total.
Thanks everyone, Luke
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Hi everyone, the certificate came through today and its proved to be very positive.
The certificate lists Julia as wife of Thomas Logan, a Tailor. She died of Dropsy and Exhaustion aged 51 at 8 Wolstenholme Buildings, Heywood and the witness it Thomas Entwistle - a confirmed direct link to me.
Thank you all for your help this is really great stuff : )
Do you think I should go for Jonw65's suggestion - 'There's a death of another Thomas in 1870
June 1870 Manchester 8d 194, Logan, Thomas, age 44' e3ven though it says wife rather than widow on Julia's death certificate?