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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: 10dorking on Thursday 11 June 20 22:42 BST (UK)
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Trying to find the parents of Mary Ann Little who I believe lived in the Gretna Green area.
I believe that she married a Charles Perry (from Somerset) in Scotland c1848.
They had a son Charles Perry b c1849 in Scotland.
The family then moved to London and can be found in the 1851 census.
Does this ring any bells with anyone?????
Regards
10dorking
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Do you mean Gretna Green?
1841 census has a number of Mary Little entries for Dumfries in the age range but only one Mary Ann. Born 1827 and living in Torthorwald
Have you looked for a birth/baptism on Scotlands People.
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
No marriage showing on SP to Charles Perry & no birth for son Charles
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Just found the 1851 entry you mention
Charles Perry 30 b Somerset
Mary 25 b Scotland
Chas (Charles) 2 b Scotland
Margaret 2mths b Islington
HO107/1501/469/31
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Gosh, thanks for your rapid responses.
The ref to Gretna Green comes from the 1871 and 1881 census when Mary Ann Perry was then married? to a Joseph Jones and the family lived in Hatfield
Yes I did mean Gretna Green (big fingers and little buttons!)
I did try and get into the Scottish records a few years ago but found them difficult to work with when compared with the likes of FreeBMD etc.
I'm aware that this quest is a bit of a long shot, but any tips you can pass on wrt searching the relevant Scottish records would be much appreciated.
Regards,
10dorking.
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If she remarried - a starting point would be to buy a copy of her second marriage cert which should give you her fathers name and occupation
No marriage to Charles Perry found so it will be interesting to see what her marital status was? Did she remarry as Little or as Perry? Daughter Margaret's birth was registered as Perry but showed mothers maiden name as Little
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The 1871 only gives her birthplace as Scotland and by 1881 Joseph is shown as a widower.
EDIT
It's the 1861 that gives Gretna Green as her birthplace - not 1871
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No marriage found to Joseph Jones under Little or Perry. Childrens births registered as Jones mmn Little
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Thank you very much for the info that have provided which corroborates the info that we have pulled together from various family members.
It would appear from the lack of either a Scottish or English marriage certificate that Mary Ann Little and Charles Perry did not marry.
Likewise it would appear that the birth of their son Charles was not registered.
It is noted that Charles Perry's occupation is recorded as a railway labourer and as such he would go to wherever the work was.
On 13/08/1846, construction work started on The Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Dumfries Carlisle railway line which ran from Carlisle to Gretna Green and then via Rigg, Lowthertown, Eastriggs, Dormock, Annan, Cumertrees, Brass well and Noblehill, to Dumfries.
This section of line was opened on 23/08/1848 with the remaining section to Glasgow being completed on 28/10/1850.
Given this range of dates ie 1846 to 1850, it now seems more than likely that Mary Ann Little met Charles Perry when the line passed through the village/town where she lived and she took up with him, becoming pregnant in 1847/1848 with her son Charles being born in 1848/1849.
When his work on the line was complete in 1850, it would appear that Mary was pregnant again, and it appears that they upped sticks and went to the next railway job in London where their daughter Margaret (my maternal great grandmother) was born in 1851.
Clearly something significant occured to Charles Perry and his son, (did they both did???) as by 1861, Mary Ann and her daughter have now taken up with Joseph Jones with whom she moves to Hatfield and has several children before dying in 1874.
Once again many thanks for your help in exploring the Scottish side of this story.
Who knows, one day something may turn up which fills in the gaps in this story wrt to Mary Ann's place of birth and family and what happened in the 1850's.
Stay safe.
Best regards
10dorking
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Hi 10dorking
Hard to more cenrtain without at least confirmation of father's name :-\
Notice that her first born daughter was Margaret and wondered if she could have been called after her mother (following Scottish naming pattern). There is this 1841 census entry:
William Little 53 agr lab.
Margaret Little 53
John Little 21
Mary Little 13 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYLC-CYL
Address: Headlep Cross Or Gretna Loaming, Gretna Dumfriesshire
Your Mary Ann showed as 25 yrs old in 1851 though (although her birth year is variable in other censuses).
Monica
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ed which corroborates the info that we have pulled together from various family members.
It would appear from the lack of either a Scottish or English marriage certificate that Mary Ann Little and Charles Perry did not marry.
Not necessarily. There could be all sorts of reasons why no record of the marriage has survived.
Likewise it would appear that the birth of their son Charles was not registered.
Both the marriage, if it took place, and the birth of Charles jr, took place before the start of registration in Scotland.
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Hi Monica
Sorry for the delay in replying but shopping got in the way!
I can see where you are coming from wrt the naming after her mother.
Does this also apply to her fathers name??
Beside Charles and Margaret Perry, Mary Ann Little also had the following children to Joseph Jones :-
Ellen, Mary Jane, Ann Maria, Joseph, Robert, William, John and Edith Mary.
If fathers naming is followed then Joseph is after her second husband meaning that Robert could be after her father?
Does that help or confuse?
dob for Mary Ann Little varies between 1825/6 (1841 c), 1828/9 (1851 &2 c) and 1829 from her death age.
So 1828/9 seems favourite.
Any joy with birth of her son in 1849ish or her marriage in 1846/8ish?
Regards
10 Dorking
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Sadly, nothing obvious showing in the parish registers for births and marriage connected to Mary Ann :-\
Scottish naming pattern (the Irish also like to use it) can be useful. However, it wasn't used in every case or in the order prescribed! Lots of guides online on this, see here for example www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Looks like this is the end of the road for this branch of my family tree.
Your time and trouble in following up possible leads is very much appreciated.
It is a bonus to have another pair of eyes overlooking my work which suffers as always with interruptions and false leads which in time become cast in stone if you're not carefull.
Who knows, something may turn up in time which suddenly unlocks this and other unknowns.
Take care and thanks once more.
Regards
10dorking.
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If it was an irrelular marriage or a border marriage would there necessarily be a marriage record since at least in the case of irregular ones any citizen could witness a public promise?
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Hi Crumblie.
I'm not familiar with Scottish records so I didn't know that Irregular and Cross Border Marriages existed and had their own records.
Just had a quick look in findmypast records but nothing coming up.
Thanks for the input though.
Much appreciated.
Regards
10dorking.
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Mary Ann Little married Charles Kerr on 12 Jun 1838 at Portpatrick. It says Charles was from Stranraer and Mary Ann was of that parish.
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This marriage of Mary Ann Little is not the marriage that I am trying to find as my Mary Ann was born c1829 and her husband was Charles Perry from Somerset, and their marriage was c1848 +/- 2 years.
Thanks for looking though, much appreciated.
Regards,
10dorking. look
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There is this 1841 census entry:
William Little 53 agr lab.
Margaret Little 53
John Little 21
Mary Little 13 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYLC-CYL
Address: Headlep Cross Or Gretna Loaming, Gretna Dumfriesshire
FreeCEN has Headless Cross (much more credible) and Gretna Loaning (also more likely).
See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.00601&lon=-3.06053&layers=5&b=1 - may need to zoom in to see Headless Cross. It's only a few hundred yards from the railway line.
The 1851 has William Little, 64, born Gretna; Margaret Little, 64, born Annan; grandson Thomas Little, 7, born Gretna; granddaughter Elizabeth Little, under 1 year, born England.
I don't see them there in 1861 so probably either they died or they left Scotland.
I note with interest that a William Little, aged 70, mother's maiden name Richardson, died in Annan in 1857. Also that William Little, son of John Little and Margaret Richardson, was baptised in Graitney (the parish that includes Gretna) on 11 November 1787. If I were you I would want to look at that death certificate.
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Thanks for all of the info that you have all found and copied to me.
it has taken a fair amount of time and patience to try and establish who was who and which family group did they fit into.
The earliest family group would appear to be that of JOHN Little and his wife Margaret Richardson of Old Graitney and they had 9 children viz :-
Jean b1777, John b1779, Barbara b1780, Janet b1782, Mary b1784, James b1786, WILLIAM b1787, Alexander b1789 and Robert b1792.
WILLIAM married Margaret Hall in July 1810 at Annan but lived in Old Graitney and they had 6 children viz :-
Jāmes b1814, Thomas b1816, John b1819, William b1822, MARY b1827, and Helen b1832.
A William Little bc1820 in Annan (I can't trace his father but it should be from one of the above male lines) appears to have married twice, firstly to Anna Maria Lowther in c1815, and secondly to Mary Ann Lowther in c1822, and they had 6 children, four in his first marriage, and two in his second marriage and they lived in Annan viz:-
Andrew b1816, Ann b1819, George Lowther and his twin John b1821, and then Helen b1823 and MARY ANN b1826.
Therefore the Little family found by Monica in the 1841 Census is the Old Graitney family group.
A similar entry will exist for the Annan family group, but I don't have access to the Scottish Census.
CAN ANYONE HELP ME OUT??
Somebody did provide a copy of the 1851 census for what turns out to be the Old Graitney family group which did not pick up MARY, which could indicate that she had married and left the family home, but of course she may be living in Scotland and not in London!
It would help enormously if details of the 1841 and 1851 census for the Annan family group could be obtained.
CAN ANYONE HELP ME OUT???
I realise that these census searches are a lot to request but hopefully they may just provide the clue which will positively identify my 2xGreat Grandmother.
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You can get everything you need here:
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
The Scottish Census (1841-1911)
The OPR (pre 1855) birth and banns (marriage) and sometimes even death
The Statutory Records (post 1855 and onwards)
And a whole lot more
Don
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Therefore the Little family found by Monica in the 1841 Census is the Old Graitney family group.
A similar entry will exist for the Annan family group, but I don't have access to the Scottish Census.
You have exactly the same access to the original Scottish census as everyone else, on Scotland's People.