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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Oxtonite62 on Wednesday 10 June 20 15:55 BST (UK)
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Having been trying to knock down my Jones brick wall for some years, a recent close DNA match on MH with a mother & son has led me to discover that my great grandfather was a bigamist. He married my great grandmother, Eliza Sullivan in 1889 in Stepney, Middlesex (stated father's name as Henry) then married Annie Jones (think the name is a coincidence rather than him marrying a relative) in 1895 stating he was a bachelor and father's name as Alfred. His signature on each record looks identical, however on the second ‘marriage’ he calls himself, Alfred David Jones.
A couple of things I noticed and I wondered what other rootschatters may think.
Alfred was a dock labourer and lived in Whitechapel at the time of his first marriage aged 20. He signed his name on the marriage record which I thought unusual for that period of time that someone working as a dock labourer would have been able to sign his name.
One of the witnesses to his marriage to my great grandmother was a Rebecca Turner. A widow, by the name of Rebecca Jones married a Joseph Turner in 1887 in Bethnal Green – her father was a William Webb. I thought Rebecca may be Alfred’s mother but unfortunately, I’ve not been able to find a birth on the GRO website with mother’s maiden name of Webb. On the 1911 Census he states he was born in St. George’s in the East. I’ve searched other areas in the vicinity of St. Georges and also looked at dates either side of 1869 without success. I did order one cert that had no mother’s maiden name recorded (as I thought he may have been illegitimate) but it wasn’t the correct one.
Did Alfred lie about his age, where he was born, his father's name as well as his matrimonial status? Maybe I’ll never know…..but I will keep looking!
My grandmother, Alfred's daughter spent the majority of her childhood in and out of the workhouse with her mother and half siblings. In those days did the authorities try to trace fathers of abandoned children?
Any thoughts or comments welcome?
Linda
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Have you found him in 1891 census or earlier - who is he living with in 1891, first wife still?
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I'd say that there are distinct differences between the two Alfred part of the signatures.
Jones, not so much, but I think the slant is different.
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Must agree I didn't think the signatures were exactly identical.
Not sure yet it is the same person, did he have any children with his first wife who are on census with him and the second wife for example to confirm it?
Appreciate Jones is a bad surname to work with but births or baptisms would look for again to start with :)
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Have you found him in 1891 census or earlier - who is he living with in 1891, first wife still?
Hi Milliepede
No, I haven’t been able to find him or my great grandmother on the 1891 Census.
Thanks
Linda
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I'd say that there are distinct differences between the two Alfred part of the signatures.
Jones, not so much, but I think the slant is different.
Ah interesting thanks. My DNA match with a mother & son on MH...we share 227 & 92 cms and they also match my paternal late uncle & 1st cousin once removed. They are descended from Albert David Jones’ via his daughter Rebecca. Which is why I think the Alfred David Jones & Alfred Jones are one and the same....complicated.
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Must agree I didn't think the signatures were exactly identical.
Not sure yet it is the same person, did he have any children with his first wife who are on census with him and the second wife for example to confirm it?
Appreciate Jones is a bad surname to work with but births or baptisms would look for again to start with :)
He had my grandmother Sarah Ann Jones with his first wife my great grandmother Eliza Jones (nee Sullivan). He then went on to have a further five children with his second wife Annie Jones as shown on the 1911 Census living in West Ham.
Yes, I agree Jones not the easiest surname to work with.
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I agree with you Linda, the signatures are very much alike.
We need someone who can superimpose them.
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His signature should also appear on the 1911 census form.
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I agree with you Linda, the signatures are very much alike.
We need someone who can superimpose them.
Thank you Mckha489...what a brilliant idea.
Is there anyone out there that is able to do that?
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His signature should also appear on the 1911 census form.
Thank you JenB - just checked this and he’s written Mr Jones...the Jones looks the same.
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I haven’t been able to find him or my great grandmother on the 1891 Census.
Maybe in St George in the East, I think they could be Jones.
piece 288 folio 62 page 47
26 Lowder Street
Alfred Jones Head 22 Dock Labourer, born London S Georges (dittoed from above)
Eliza Jones Wife 23 London Whitechapel
Transcribed as Ives on findmpast/familysearch and Ines on ancestry (you can see why)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q45F-HW2
Birth of daughter?
JONES, SARAH ANN
Mother's Maiden Surname: SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 373
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Birth of daughter?
Catholic baptism at Underwood Road in 1891 of Sarah Anne Jones, parents Alfred and Eliza.
Could that be them? Have no more info.
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St George in the East
piece 288 folio 62 page 47
26 Lowder Street
A John and Rebecca Turner are among the other occupants of number 26 Lowder Street in 1891.
A cousin called Ellen is with them, is she also a Jones, mistranscribed again? :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q456-KW2
It's John Turner who is on the electoral register at 26 Lowder in 1892, and it says -
Lowder Street
(Late York Place, Old Gravel Lane)
Alfred Jones gave his residence as 11 York's Place on his marriage to Eliza in 1889.
Could it be the same street?
(A James Jones is one of those at number 11 Lowder in 1891, but it is a common name).
Add in York Place electors in 1890
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99FL-3S95-P?i=80&cc=2228170
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I haven’t been able to find him or my great grandmother on the 1891 Census.
Maybe in St George in the East, I think they could be Jones.
piece 288 folio 62 page 47
26 Lowder Street
Alfred Jones Head 22 Dock Labourer, born London S Georges (dittoed from above)
Eliza Jones Wife 23 London Whitechapel
Transcribed as Ives on findmpast/familysearch and Ines on ancestry (you can see why)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q45F-HW2
Birth of daughter?
JONES, SARAH ANN
Mother's Maiden Surname: SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 373
Thank you so much jonw65, I would never have found this information and would never have thought Jones could be transcribed as Ines, however yes I can see why! I will pass this info onto my cousin in Australia we have been looking for our Jones/Sullivan ancestors for a number of years.
Yes, that is my grandmother, Sarah Ann Jones born 1891, I have a copy of her birth certificate.
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Birth of daughter?
Catholic baptism at Underwood Road in 1891 of Sarah Anne Jones, parents Alfred and Eliza.
Could that be them? Have no more info.
I am sure this is the baptism of my grandmother, her mother Eliza was of Catholic Irish descent and my father (Sarah Jones’s son) and his siblings were all raised as Catholics.
Thank you so much for the info.
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I'm not sure if this is connected, but looking for births of Alfred Jones c1869 turns up this one:
JONES, ALFRED mmn CHAPMAN
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 449
St George in the East Workhouse register of births:
7 Nov 1868 Alfred Jones, Mother: Sarah Jones. Legitimate
Sarah Jones b 1832 admitted to St George Workhouse 7 Nov 1868 in labour. Discharged with Alfred 28 Nov 1868.
Other Jones children registered with the mmn Chapman in St George in the East include Francis Robert in 1862, and his baptism on 4 May 1862 at St Mary Stepney gives his parents as Henry & Sarah Jones, Labourer, of Lower Well Alley, St George
ADDED:
Possibly them in 1861 at 8 Duke Street, St George in the East
Henry Jones 31 Dock Labourer b St George, Middx
Sarah Jones 30 wife Tailoress b Wimbledon (?) Surrey
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Following on from my last post, I'm mighty confused!
What appears to be twins are registered in in St George in the East in 1861:
JONES, HENRY EDWARDS mmn CHAPMAN GRO Ref: 1861 M Quarter Volume 01C Page 466
JONES, JOHN THOMAS mmn CHAPMAN GRO Ref: 1861 M Quarter Volume 01C Page 466
Both twins died in the same quarter, but there is a baptism at St Peter, London Docks:
26 Feb 1861 (born 31 Jan 1861) John Thomas s/o Henry & Sarah Jones, Labourer, 9 Lower Well Alley (same address as Francis Robert in 1862)
In 1861 at 9 Lower Well Alley, St George in the East - RG09/281/123/28
Martha Chapman 68 Head, Widow, Shirt (or Sheet) Maker b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Charlotte Turner 35 Daur b Stepney
Sarah Chapman 28 Daur Unmarried Ship(?) Trowser Maker b Stepney (Elizah on FindMyPast)
John Turner 14 Errand Boy b St George in the East
ADDED: In 1881 at 12 Lower Well Alley are John & Rebecca Turner & family
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Following on from my last post, I'm mighty confused!
You're doing brilliantly well, can you fit an Ellen Jones in somewhere? :)
Couple of likely birth registrations of Turner children
Sep 1873 St George in the East, Rebecca Mary Turner, mother Titching
June 1881 St George in the East, Martha Ellen Turner, mother Tichten
So, if it helps at all re the Turners, I think the marriage of John and Rebecca is this one
20 Nov 1870, St Thomas Stepney
John Turner and Rebecca Tichte
Image here on FamilySearch and also on ancestry (where Rebecca is Tickle)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96G-LY7X?i=96
FamilySearch transcript
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ8Y-2DY
John's father is Francis Turner, Waterman
And a witness is Charlotte Turner
In 1861 at 9 Lower Well Alley, St George in the East - RG09/281/123/28
Martha Chapman 68 Head, Widow, Shirt (or Sheet) Maker b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Charlotte Turner 35 Daur b Stepney
Sarah Chapman 28 Daur Unmarried Ship(?) Trowser Maker b Stepney (Elizah on FindMyPast)
John Turner 14 Errand Boy b St George in the East
So it all seems to fit in with this.
Baptism of John Turner at St Peter London Docks, 22 Sep 1857 (private baptism)
born 5 June 1847
John
parents Francis + Charlotte Turner
abode Hampton Court
father Waterman (deceased)
Possible birth reg
TURNER, JOHN
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHAPMAN
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE (IN THE EAST) Volume 02 Page 88
Francis Turner, a Waterman, married Charlotte Chapman, 3 March 1847, St Dunstan Stepney
Fathers were James Turner, Barge Builder, and Robert Chapman, Carman
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFC-M6NP?i=202
Haven't found Charlotte before then.
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Looking at those two Alfred Jones marriages, I have to say I think that the signatures are very similar.
Don't forget, re 1911 census signature, that he probably wrote out the whole form himself, so you have a good sample of his handwriting.
Did he ever use the David name again?
There are baptisms of children of Alfred and Annie Jones at St Luke Victoria Docks from around 1896. He appears to be just Alfred on those. Unfortunately - with the libraries being closed :( - I can't get hold of the more detailed transcriptions.
Does Linda have the Alfred who married Annie in the 1901 census? Presumably they are in West Ham. Because I can't see him! Daughter Rebecca was born 1899 (21 May according to ancestry)and she should be easy to spot.
Here they are in the 1911 free index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWF3-WFM
Alfred's details are a pretty exact match for the earlier records. Wife Annie is born Camden Town, they have a 14 year old son James, then Rebecca, 11, Rose, age 9, and two younger children.
According to the ancestry transcript of the St Luke's baptism record, Rose was Rose Alice, and was born 28 Nov 1900. Baptized in October 1901.
But can that be right? :-\
Birth reg in Dec 1901, fitting with age in 1911
JONES, ROSE ALICE
Mother's Maiden Surname: JONES
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 161
Looking again in 1901 in West Ham, there is a family in the same street as Alfred and Annie were in 1911, and with some similarities, but plenty of differences!
piece 1580 folio 170 page 45
54 Devonshire Road
Just to confuse, first household is William Jones, 40, Dock Labourer, and wife Amy
Second household
Arthur Jones Head 32 Stevedore's Labourer, born London St Georges
Annie Jones Wife 32, London Camben Town (looks like)
John Jones Son 4 Essex West Ham
Rose Jones Daughter 1 Essex West Ham
Walter Preston Boarder 23
Trabscript here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NC-GC2
So Mr Jones has a different first name. but the rest is the same.
Annie Jones pretty much matches the 1911 details.
Children's ages correct, names wrong, but Alfred and Annie were soon to have a daughter Rose!
Can this couple be eliminated? :-\
Has anybody got more info from the baptisms at St Lukes?
John
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I'm not sure if this is connected, but looking for births of Alfred Jones c1869 turns up this one:
JONES, ALFRED mmn CHAPMAN
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 449
St George in the East Workhouse register of births:
7 Nov 1868 Alfred Jones, Mother: Sarah Jones. Legitimate
Sarah Jones b 1832 admitted to St George Workhouse 7 Nov 1868 in labour. Discharged with Alfred 28 Nov 1868.
Other Jones children registered with the mmn Chapman in St George in the East include Francis Robert in 1862, and his baptism on 4 May 1862 at St Mary Stepney gives his parents as Henry & Sarah Jones, Labourer, of Lower Well Alley, St George
ADDED:
Possibly them in 1861 at 8 Duke Street, St George in the East
Henry Jones 31 Dock Labourer b St George, Middx
Sarah Jones 30 wife Tailoress b Wimbledon (?) Surrey
Thank you Jomot. This is very interesting and looks like a distinct possibility. On Alfred’s first marriage in 1889 he stated his father was Henry and his daughter (my grandmother) was named Sarah.
I did see the birth of an Alfred Jones mmn Chapman on the GRO website but discounted it as I wasn’t aware of the Chapman connection at that point.
This is all very exciting and gives me another option to investigate.
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Following on from my last post, I'm mighty confused!
You're doing brilliantly well, can you fit an Ellen Jones in somewhere? :)
Couple of likely birth registrations of Turner children
Sep 1873 St George in the East, Rebecca Mary Turner, mother Titching
June 1881 St George in the East, Martha Ellen Turner, mother Tichten
So, if it helps at all re the Turners, I think the marriage of John and Rebecca is this one
20 Nov 1870, St Thomas Stepney
John Turner and Rebecca Tichte
Image here on FamilySearch and also on ancestry (where Rebecca is Tickle)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96G-LY7X?i=96
FamilySearch transcript
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ8Y-2DY
John's father is Francis Turner, Waterman
And a witness is Charlotte Turner
In 1861 at 9 Lower Well Alley, St George in the East - RG09/281/123/28
Martha Chapman 68 Head, Widow, Shirt (or Sheet) Maker b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Charlotte Turner 35 Daur b Stepney
Sarah Chapman 28 Daur Unmarried Ship(?) Trowser Maker b Stepney (Elizah on FindMyPast)
John Turner 14 Errand Boy b St George in the East
So it all seems to fit in with this.
Baptism of John Turner at St Peter London Docks, 22 Sep 1857 (private baptism)
born 5 June 1847
John
parents Francis + Charlotte Turner
abode Hampton Court
father Waterman (deceased)
Possible birth reg
TURNER, JOHN
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHAPMAN
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE (IN THE EAST) Volume 02 Page 88
Francis Turner, a Waterman, married Charlotte Chapman, 3 March 1847, St Dunstan Stepney
Fathers were James Turner, Barge Builder, and Robert Chapman, Carman
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFC-M6NP?i=202
Haven't found Charlotte before then.
Jonw65 & Jomot...you have both done brilliantly! I really appreciate the effort that has gone into this difficult search. This has been gnawing away at me 24/7 since my recent dna matches came to light.
The marriage I found at St James the Great, Bethnal Green in 1887 between Joseph Turner (Father John Turner) & Rebecca Jones (Widow) nee Webb is, I now believe, a red herring as since looking at the 1891 Census where Alfred was transcribed as Ines, the age for Rebecca doesn’t match....so can now discount that.
Jonw65, I agree I do think the signatures are alike but wanted the opinion of people more experienced than me. It can’t be possible that I’m descended from two Alfred Jones....surely no? The paper trail is now very convincing for the Alfred that married my great grandmother, Eliza Sullivan & the dna backs up the link to Alfred David Jones. I’ve not come across him using the middle name of David but then I didn’t have much to go on until now.
I don’t have Alfred with his new family for the 1901 Census..can we eliminate the Arthur Jones family or did he change his name again to hide his ‘crime’? In 1901 my grandmother aged 10 was in the Salvation Army shelter in Whitechapel (and pretty much in and out of there on a regular basis) with her mother Eliza Jones and her half sibling Bridget Jones age 3 who was actually registered at birth as Bridget Barrett (Father William)....another mystery. Maybe Alfred couldn’t risk using his real name in 1901 due to his first family living in dire poverty!
The basic information my dna match gave to me matches up with the family in West Ham in 1911. Alfred & Annie’s daughter Rebecca married his great grandfather.
My task for today is to get my head around all the information given to me. I’d like to look further into the Turners & Chapmans, the other Jones children - Francis Robert & the twins as this is all new to me. My grandmother Sarah Jones (later Cash) also gave birth to twins - twin girls, one only lived for a day and the other, my aunt is 88 years old! Unfortunately she doesn’t know much about the family as she was evacuated at a young age.
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Hi
Regarding eliminating Arthur and family, I haven't found them in 1911. But I do think it likely that all the Rose (and variants!) Jones born in the West Ham district who would have been about a year old in 1901 can be eliminated. In the sense that their parents were not Arthur and Annie!
So it is possible that it might be the Alfred we are interested in. If we can eventually get an address for Alfred circa 1901 from other records it may help. People could move about a bit though. Or did they stay in Devonshire Road for some years, albeit different numbers?
John
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In 1901 my grandmother aged 10 was in the Salvation Army shelter in Whitechapel (and pretty much in and out of there on a regular basis) with her mother Eliza Jones and her half sibling Bridget Jones age 3 who was actually registered at birth as Bridget Barrett (Father William)....another mystery. Maybe Alfred couldn’t risk using his real name in 1901 due to his first family living in dire poverty!
That's useful. I'd come across a Sarah, daughter of ELiza, the right age and location in workhouse admissions, sometimes with sibling Bridget, but with father William. This now makes sense.
Eliza Jones said her husband was a soldier in South Africa in 1902. I presume she's referring to William Barrett's whereabouts?
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I don’t have Alfred with his new family for the 1901 Census..can we eliminate the Arthur Jones family or did he change his name again to hide his ‘crime’?
I also don't think this family should be eliminated. Its possible that the names may have been incorrectly supplied on purpose, but equally it could just be sloppy work by the enumerator when he transferred the information from the original household return.
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Hi
Regarding eliminating Arthur and family, I haven't found them in 1911. But I do think it likely that all the Rose (and variants!) Jones born in the West Ham district who would have been about a year old in 1901 can be eliminated. In the sense that their parents were not Arthur and Annie!
So it is possible that it might be the Alfred we are interested in. If we can eventually get an address for Alfred circa 1901 from other records it may help. People could move about a bit though. Or did they stay in Devonshire Road for some years, albeit different numbers?
John
Hi John
You are so very thorough in your ‘detective ‘ work...thank you! I think the evidence is looking very convincing that it could be our Alfred’s family in 1901. I wouldn’t have thought he would move about very much..may have been too ‘dangerous’. I often wonder whether his new family knew about his past life? Hoping we can find other evidence of his address in 1901.
Linda
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I don’t have Alfred with his new family for the 1901 Census..can we eliminate the Arthur Jones family or did he change his name again to hide his ‘crime’?
I also don't think this family should be eliminated. Its possible that the names may have been incorrectly supplied on purpose, but equally it could just be sloppy work by the enumerator when he transferred the information from the original household return.
Hi Jomot
It looks very likely that it could be the same family. The evidence you & John have put together is very encouraging. I too thought that it could have been a mistake by the enumerator as Annie was the only name that hadn’t been changed...but knowing our Alfred...anything is possible.
Thanks
Linda
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In 1901 my grandmother aged 10 was in the Salvation Army shelter in Whitechapel (and pretty much in and out of there on a regular basis) with her mother Eliza Jones and her half sibling Bridget Jones age 3 who was actually registered at birth as Bridget Barrett (Father William)....another mystery. Maybe Alfred couldn’t risk using his real name in 1901 due to his first family living in dire poverty!
That's useful. I'd come across a Sarah, daughter of ELiza, the right age and location in workhouse admissions, sometimes with sibling Bridget, but with father William. This now makes sense.
Eliza Jones said her husband was a soldier in South Africa in 1902. I presume she's referring to William Barrett's whereabouts?
Hi Mabel
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I have a copy of Bridget’s birth certificate and the father is stated as William Barrett, however just to add to the confusion...on the marriage certificate of her son Thomas Patrick Jones he states his father is William Jones.
I believe Eliza had 5 children and they were all raised using the Jones surname. Between Thomas Patrick’s granddaughter and myself & some dna thrown into the mix we’ve come to the conclusion that only my grandmother was a Jones and the other children were Barretts. We think maybe Eliza didn’t want to appear to the outside world as being a ‘fallen’ woman as I believe in those days, women in that situation weren’t looked upon very favourably! Which may be the reason why she used the name Jones for all her children.
If I had the motivation I could write a very interesting novel about my paternal family!
Linda
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You're doing brilliantly well, can you fit an Ellen Jones in somewhere? :)
Found Ellen Ives on the 1901 Census - Piece 317, folio 7, page no.16, Shadwell with Rebecca Turner, Frank Turner & Frederick Turner - Turners transcribed as Tarner. Ellen is a boarder - looks like her surname is actually Ives.
Linda
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Francis Turner, a Waterman, married Charlotte Chapman, 3 March 1847, St Dunstan Stepney
Fathers were James Turner, Barge Builder, and Robert Chapman, Carman
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFC-M6NP?i=202
Haven't found Charlotte before then.
In 1841 the family is at Turners Buildings, St George in the East
Robert Chapman 42 Carman? No
Martha 41 No
Charlotte 15 Yes
Sarah 10 Yes
Mary 5 Yes
1851 Raymonds Place, Saint George in the East
Robert Chapman 60 Labourer b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Martha 59 wife b Rotherhithe, Surrey
Sarah 19 daur b Rotherhithe, Surrey
Mary 15 daur b Whitechapel, Middx
Marriage 27 May 1855, St Thomas, Stepney
Charles Yems f/a Bachelor, Stepney, father William Yems
Mary Chapman f/a Spinster, Stepney, father Robert Chapman
Wits: CA Bocking & Eleanor Hooper
1861, 1 Hampton Court, St George in the East (transcribed as 1 Churches Gardens on FindMyPast)
Charles Yems (Yanes on FindMyPast) 27 General Dealer b Shadwell
Mary 25 wife b St George in the East
Mary 5 daur b St George in the East
Robert 3m son b St George in the East
Mary Sr died in 1868
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Francis Turner, a Waterman, married Charlotte Chapman, 3 March 1847, St Dunstan Stepney
Fathers were James Turner, Barge Builder, and Robert Chapman, Carman
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFC-M6NP?i=202
Haven't found Charlotte before then.
In 1841 the family is at Turners Buildings, St George in the East
Robert Chapman 42 Carman? No
Martha 41 No
Charlotte 15 Yes
Sarah 10 Yes
Mary 5 Yes
1851 Raymonds Place, Saint George in the East
Robert Chapman 60 Labourer b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Martha 59 wife b Rotherhithe, Surrey
Sarah 19 daur b Rotherhithe, Surrey
Mary 15 daur b Whitechapel, Middx
Marriage 27 May 1855, St Thomas, Stepney
Charles Yems f/a Bachelor, Stepney, father William Yems
Mary Chapman f/a Spinster, Stepney, father Robert Chapman
Wits: CA Bocking & Eleanor Hooper
1861, 1 Hampton Court, St George in the East (transcribed as 1 Churches Gardens on FindMyPast)
Charles Yems (Yanes on FindMyPast) 27 General Dealer b Shadwell
Mary 25 wife b St George in the East
Mary 5 daur b St George in the East
Robert 3m son b St George in the East
Mary Sr died in 1868
Hi Jomot
Thank you for this info. On my initial post on this this thread, the attachment I uploaded for Alfred’s first marriage to my great grandmother, one of the witnesses was a John...looked like Welles or Wems but could be Yems.
I found the marriage for Charles Yems & Mary Chapman on Ancestry - surname transcribed as Years. Yems such an unusual name..wonder where that came from?
I’ll need to start doing some work on my tree on Ancestry starting with Alfred’s parents, Henry & Sarah & his siblings, to get a better picture of where everyone fits in and hopefully one day it may turn up more info on the elusive Alfred!
Thanks again for all your help.
Linda
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Fascinating topic ..great research
would Eliza have to register her children as Jones of she couldn't officially marry to William Barrett ?
Maybe he had his own reasons to pass himself off as William JONES.
Do you have any other records for ,, Williaim ?
I expect the children didn't know his true surname
And Sarah Ann wouldn't have known about her half siblings
From bigamist father.....has that been proved yet. ?
Which childrwn of Albert + Annie is your DNA linked to?
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Fascinating topic ..great research
would Eliza have to register her children as Jones of she couldn't officially marry to William Barrett ?
Maybe he had his own reasons to pass himself off as William JONES.
Do you have any other records for ,, Williaim ?
I expect the children didn't know his true surname
And Sarah Ann wouldn't have known about her half siblings
From bigamist father.....has that been proved yet. ?
Which childrwn of Albert + Annie is your DNA linked to?
Thank you for your interest Brigidmac...yes I was hoping this topic would generate interest on here and it certainly did. I’m just in the process of piecing it all together as the info I received has been so very helpful & plentiful.
I’m not sure about your first question but definitely Bridget was registered as Barrett. I believe Thomas Patrick was registered as Jones which is strange because Bridget was born before Thomas Patrick. I’m not sure if he did pass himself off as William Jones or whether it was Eliza that did that. I don’t have any other records for a William Barrett/Jones. Of course, there could have been a William Jones & a William Barrett! My elderly aunt (Sarah Ann’s daughter) remembers the name Barrett when she was a young child.
No, my grandmother Sarah Ann would not have known about her half siblings through Alfred’s new family. However she was very close to her half siblings Bridget and Thomas Patrick. I believe there were two other boys born to Eliza - a William & George but we’re not quite sure whether they lived to adulthood.
My DNA matches (a mother & her son) are linked to me, my late paternal uncle & a paternal 1C1R, through Alfred and Annie’s daughter Rebecca Annie.
I haven’t actually proved that Alfred was a bigamist but the evidence is pretty convincing with the paper trail from his marriage to Eliza and the DNA matches through his daughter from his second marriage. I don’t believe they would have been in a position to divorce as they lived in very poor circumstances.
Linda
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I'm not sure if this is connected, but looking for births of Alfred Jones c1869 turns up this one:
JONES, ALFRED mmn CHAPMAN
GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 449
St George in the East Workhouse register of births:
7 Nov 1868 Alfred Jones, Mother: Sarah Jones. Legitimate
Sarah Jones b 1832 admitted to St George Workhouse 7 Nov 1868 in labour. Discharged with Alfred 28 Nov 1868.
Other Jones children registered with the mmn Chapman in St George in the East include Francis Robert in 1862, and his baptism on 4 May 1862 at St Mary Stepney gives his parents as Henry & Sarah Jones, Labourer, of Lower Well Alley, St George
ADDED:
Possibly them in 1861 at 8 Duke Street, St George in the East
Henry Jones 31 Dock Labourer b St George, Middx
Sarah Jones 30 wife Tailoress b Wimbledon (?) Surrey
Hi
I've now received the birth certificate for Alfred Jones mmn Chapman as kindly suggested by Jomot and the mother's name is recorded as Sarah Chapman, so I'm pretty certain it is the correct birth cert for my great Grandfather.
On cross checking the GRO website with birth & death records it appears that Sarah may have had 5 boys that died soon after birth before she gave birth to Alfred. To confirm this I would probably need to buy all birth and death certs...so may put that off for a while!
Still pretty much confused as to the birth place of Sarah as are a number of other people who have the Chapman/Turners in their tree! Her place of birth on various Census records is recorded as Stepney or Rotherhithe and her mother Martha's place of birth - Rotherhithe or Woodbridge in Suffolk...strange as Rotherhithe is not even close to Woodbridge!
I thought it possible that the Sarah & Henry Jones on the 1861 Census at 8 Duke Street could be my great great grandparents as the birth/death dates of her sons appear to indicate that on the date the Census was taken in April she wouldn't have had any living children...although if that is the case we have the birth place as Wimbledon. Then again as Jomot highlighted in his post there is a Sarah Chapman, 28 and unmarried in the 1861 Census at Lower Well Alley. This seems more likely to be my Sarah Chapman due to the link with the Turners and maybe there was at the time much confusion from the family as to where she was born - Stepney or Rotherhithe!
More research needed on my part but I'm not ready to give up yet...will keep looking and will endeavour to provide updates if I ever solve this mystery!
Many thanks
Linda
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Hi.. I am following your post with interest as we have also been hitting a block with our Jones surname. My grandfather was called Alfred Lewis Jones birth registered Shoreditch 1919.. His Father (My great grandfather) was a a mystery... The family rumour was that he was a bigamist... so hence my interest. My question to you is - do you know where your great grandfather is buried? Because if it is the same person... then I may be able to help you.
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Hi.. I am following your post with interest as we have also been hitting a block with our Jones surname. My grandfather was called Alfred Lewis Jones birth registered Shoreditch 1919.. His Father (My great grandfather) was a a mystery... The family rumour was that he was a bigamist... so hence my interest. My question to you is - do you know where your great grandfather is buried? Because if it is the same person... then I may be able to help you.
Hi Farvie
Thanks for your interest. No, I have no idea where my great grandfather is buried. I know very little about him apart from information I’ve received on here. No one in my paternal family knew anything about him either so I’ve hit a dead end!
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OK... I am going to do some more digging my end regarding specific dates and if I find anything interesting, I will let you know (I dont want to take you down a rabbit hole with this)...However, there are a lot of similarities.. Our 'Mr Jones' was a Stevedore, bigamist etc ....We have his year of death around 1948 in Essex so will keep you posted...
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OK... I am going to do some more digging my end regarding specific dates and if I find anything interesting, I will let you know (I dont want to take you down a rabbit hole with this)...However, there are a lot of similarities.. Our 'Mr Jones' was a Stevedore, bigamist etc ....We have his year of death around 1948 in Essex so will keep you posted...
Ok thanks Farvie. One thing I did think about is that my great grandfather’s last child was born in 1908...if he was the father of your grandfather (born in 1919) he would have been 51 when he was born...I guess that’s not impossible!
Let me know if you need any other information...although most of the info I have is in this thread.