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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: emsquared on Wednesday 10 June 20 00:25 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information about the background of this John Johnston. He died 10 October1875 at Balclutha. This fact comes from an affidavit provided after his death by a John Bell of Taieri which was accessed via Archives NZ. John Johnston left seven children orphaned.
The distribution of his estate was raised in Parliament in 1882 when the financial plight of a lady who "adopted" the youngest child was raised and the Public Trustee requested to look further into the matter of distribution of the estate. In the Parliamentary record it is suggested that several of the children ended up at the Caversham Industrial School and one was still there in 1882.
I have identified the seven children, one of whom is my great grandmother. John Johnston married Elizabeth Bell in 1858 at Taieri. His age is listed as 35. If correct he was born about 1823. There is also a suggestion that he had been in NZ for 9 years at that time. I have a death cert for his wife who died in 1871 shortly after giving birth to her youngest daughter Joan. While the age listed (29) has to be in error this seems certainly the correct person. The wedding cert suggests she was 23 at time of marriage but that date is also in question.
I have now found that Elizabeth Bell was a sister of the above mentioned John Bell. They came from Lanarkshire. John Bell arrived in NZ in 1848 on the Phillip Laing but his sister was not with him. It seems she arrived in NZ later.
So my information about John Johnston is that:
* he may have arrived in NZ around 1849
* he married Elizabeth Bell in 1858
* 3 children were born in the Taieri area (Elizabeth, Martha, Jane)
* some time after 1864 he moved to a farm at Waiwera where he and Elizabeth had 4 more children (William, Catherine, Mary, Joan)
* he died in 1875 leaving seven children orphaned.
Any suggestions on how to obtain more information on John Johnston would be welcomed. Unfortunately it is a very common name. There was another John Johnston farming at Kaihiku which is near Waiwera. A big family but I believe not connected.
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Hi,it is Waiwera South,Waiwera is in the North Isalnd north of Auckland. ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
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PapersPast is another good source of information
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers
Cheers Janette
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Hi,it is Waiwera South,Waiwera is in the North Isalnd north of Auckland. ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
Hi Janette,
In the time period mentioned by emsquared, the area was known just as "Waiwera" and not Waiwera South. The name change must have come later to avoid confusion with the place north of Auckland. :)
Minniehaha.
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Hello,
It appears that John Johnston last resided at Clinton..
1875 Auction…..
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CL18751118.2.12.1?end_date=31-12-1875&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=john+johnston&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1875&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Estate documents 1876 [which you have?]
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89ND-PJX?i=393&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQK9V-KJ7M
Minniehaha.
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Hi Emsquared.
I think I might have found his arrival, as crew on the Mooltan, arrived Otago in December 1849.
http://www.ngaiopress.com/mool-lst.htm
Spades
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Industrial School 1876…….
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18761027.2.10?end_date=31-12-1882&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=catherine+johnston+&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1871&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Readmission 1881?....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18811031.2.8?end_date=31-12-1882&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=catherine+johnston+&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1871&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Minniehaha.
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Hi Janette,
In the time period mentioned by emsquared, the area was known just as "Waiwera" and not Waiwera South. The name change must have come later to avoid confusion with the place north of Auckland. :)
Minniehaha.
Thanks Minniehaha,I wondered why they had moved so far lol ::) ::) ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
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You may find more about the children here:
https://www.otago.ac.nz/library/hocken/oni/details.php?recid=407940.15
https://www.otago.ac.nz/library/hocken/oni/details.php?recid=501778.8
Minniehaha.
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Evenin' all ;)
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Evenin' all ;)
Hello Spades,
Yes your presence was noted. Nice to see you back. ;D
Minniehaha.
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Thanks, Minniehaha.
I surprised myself with that discovery. I didn't think it would be that easy, but I do think it's him.
Spades
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Evenin' all ;)
A big jaffa Hi ;D ;D and well done
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette, thanks! ;D
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Is this your family?
NZ BDM births
1859/9396 JOHNSTON Elizabeth parents Elizabeth / John
1861/12174 JOHNSTON Martha parents Elizabeth / John
1862/11588 JOHNSTON Anne parents Elizabeth / John
1864/16899 JOHNSTON Jane parents Elizabeth / John
1866/31032 JOHNSTON William parents Elizabeth / John
1868/34876 JOHNSTON Catherine parents Elizabeth / John
1870/32297 JOHNSTON Mary Wylie parents Elizabeth / John
1871/39517 JOHNSTON Joan parents Elizabeth / John
Where does the name Wylie come from? Is Anne, born 1862, of your family?.
"...I have now found that Elizabeth Bell was a sister of the above mentioned John Bell."
What do you know about Elizabeth BELL?.
From the marriage certificate, 1858, what occupation do you see for John JOHNSTON......what names for witnesses.....what church do they marry in?
Which girl is your great grandmother?
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Thanks to you all for the replies.
I did not have hard evidence of which children were sent to the Caversham Industrial School. But I assumed that Elizabeth (1859) and Martha (b1861) were old enough to be working when their father died. I have evidence that Jane (1864) was looked after by a Mr Clifford, the postmaster at Clinton at the time. Joan (b1871)was fostered or looked after by the lady mentioned (not by name) in the Parliamentary Report of 1882.
So that left William (1866), Catherine (1868) and my Mary (1870) who Minniehaha has found at the Caversham School. Thanks very much.
The sale of farm equipment I had found in the Clutha paper.
I am not convinced that the sailor discharged at Port Chalmers is my John Johnston. The spelling of Johnstone is different and the age does not align with the marriage cert date. I also suspect my John Johnston hails from Scotland.
Thanks again
Emsquared
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Hi Emsquared,
Would you like me to find the Intention to Marry Notice for John's 1858 marriage to Elizabeth BELL?
It should give John's occupation and the age of both parties.
Have you approached Toitū Otago Settlers Museum to see if they have any information? They are an excellent resource for early European emigration to Otago.
https://www.toituosm.com/
Also consider Port Chalmers Museum. Their website is currently off-line so a phone call might be worthwhile.
Spades
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Mother & daughter??
Elizabeth Johnston 1869:
https://www.otago.ac.nz/library/hocken/oni/details.php?recid=394383.15
https://www.otago.ac.nz/library/hocken/oni/details.php?recid=394381.15
Minniehaha.
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Thanks Spades. Yes that would be good. I have only a copy of the cert. It does not give occupation of the bridal couple.
Wivenhoe - Re the family I can explain that by attaching my research
• Elizabeth Johnston, born 1859 (folio #334) Dunedin
• Martha Johnston, born 1861 (folio #439) Taieri
• Anne Johnston, born 1862 (folio #325) Christchurch*
• Jane Johnston, born 1864 (folio #611) Dunedin
• William Johnston, born 1866 (folio #979) Warepa
• Catherine Johnston, born 1868 (folio #1291) Kaihiku, Warepa
• Mary Wylie Johnston, born 1870 (folio #1084) Oamaru*
• Joan Johnston, born 1871, Jan. to March quarter (folio #1443) Popotunoa
*These are not likely part of the family because of their place of birth.
So Anne and Mary Wylie are not part of the family. But my Mary's death cert and her wedding cert list parents as John Johnston and Elizabeth Bell. And her death cert records that she was born at Clinton. Further confirmation is provided by the identification of William, Catherine and Mary Johnston at the Caversham Industrial School.
Further they were married at a private house in Taieri and the Minister was William Will. Witnesses were AJ Burns JP and William Gibson
Emsquared
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In relation to the two references to Elizabeth and her daughter Elizabeth being identified for theft I am unable to establish this is my Elizabeth Johnston (nee Bell). It seems to have occurred in Dunedin. By then the family was living near Clinton. You people have confirmed the Industrial School connection. Thanks for that. I have a request in at Archives NZ for records from the School 1880 to 1885 which apparently they do hold.
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Did you manage to find the death registration for John Johnston?
Minniehaha.
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I am not convinced that the sailor discharged at Port Chalmers is my John Johnston. The spelling of Johnstone is different and the age does not align with the marriage cert date. I also suspect my John Johnston hails from Scotland.
John JOHNSTONE hailed from Wigton, Scotland (properly Wigtonshire), and he arrived at Otago in the correct year by your estimation, 1849. The Mooltan list notes that he was discharged, i.e. remained in the province when the Mooltan departed.
I wouldn't place much weight on the discrepancy of the surname spelling or the ages/dates. These were/still are often incorrect depending on the informant's knowledge.
I don't think you should discount him just yet.
Spades
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Thanks Spades.
Yes I agree re the dates and spelling. I certainly don't discount that this may be my relative. Incorrect dates are often entered by informants and maybe there are errors in transcribing. Johnston/Johnstone/Johnson seem to be often interchanged. I just need more to make the link. Will keep searching.
I have not applied for a death cert for John Johnston as the two on BDM NZ matching the date of death do not match in age and also place of death. One in Hokitika and one in Nelson. The date of death is 10 October 1875 as per affidavit.
The issue raised in a previous post highlight the challenges. According to BDM NZ records my Mary Johnston has different parents. But her marriage and death cert track her back to parents John and Elizabeth. This is supported by the names of the 3 sibling children at Caversham (William, Catherine, Mary). I also have a close DNA link to descendants of Jane.
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Further to the possibility of John Johnston discharged from ship at Port Chalmers in 1849 I note that Peter McGill from the same home town was also discharged at the same time. Assuming Wigstownshire Scotland the following census information from 1841 was found.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a158ea6f4040b9d6eaac396/john-johnston-1841-wigtownshire-inch-1826-?locale=en
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a15901cf4040b9d6eac631f/peter-mcgill-1841-wigtownshire-stoneykirk-1826-?locale=en
Very Promising - Right age, right town.
No Peter McGill found in 1851 but what could be the same John Johnston, now married with 3 children.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59066ed4e9379091b1ef31cc/john-johnston-1851-wigtownshire-old-luce-1825-?locale=en
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Hi,
That information certainly lends more weight to the premise, however note that their place of origin was Wigtownshire, no 's'.
Spades
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Hi Emsquared,
Can you tell me the precise date of the 1858 marriage, please.
Spades
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This for John JOHNSTON -
"...There is also a suggestion that he had been in NZ for 9 years at that time."
Where do you see this suggestion?
What happened to these children between mother's death, 1871, and father's death, 1875.....at which point children went into institutional care? Father John JOHNSTON would not be able to care for these children.
What cause of death do you see for Elizabeth JOHNSTON, died 1871?
What cause of death do you see for John JOHNSTON, died 1875?
"... I have evidence that Jane (1864) was looked after by a Mr Clifford, the postmaster at Clinton at the time. "
What is this evidence?
The more you know about the children of John JOHNSTON and Elizabeth BELL, the greater the chance to find, hopefully, a JOHNSTON relative around at the tine of Elizabeth JOHNSTON nee BELL and........ John JOHNSTON'S deaths.
The marriage certificate, 1858....do Elizabeth BELL and John JOHNSTON sign their names...are they literate?
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Hi Wivenhoe
Answers to your questions below.
The children were aged 0 to 12 when their mother died. She died of uterine hemorrhaging according to the death record.
I agree unlikely that father could not look after them. From information above William (b1866) was sent to the Caversham Industrial School before the death of his mother. So he was possibly running wild? Or hard to manage locally!
The Parliamentary report of 1882 suggests the youngest (Joan) was in the care of a local lady after the death of John Johnston. One could guess the same lady was helping before his death. But that is a guess.
A person whose research encroached on the family of Jane (b1864) has indicated she was looked after by the Clifford family. Can I prove that? No. Jane (who became Jane Forno) did name one of her children Clifford which of course could be a coincidence.
The best I can do is assume the eldest two (Elizabeth and Martha) finished their schooling locally with support from local families (Cliffords again?).
Who looked after William, Catherine and Mary is a mystery. I have unsuccessfully chased school records. We now know they were in the Caversham Industrial School shortly after John Johnston's death.
The wedding record I have is a transcription written in one hand so cannot tell whether they were literate.
The researcher mentioned above has indicated that
"I believe the children were raised by a Mr Clifford, possibly a post master, which is where the Clifford name comes from.
Other than that - only John Johnston (Length of Residence for Intention to Marry- 9 years, age 35.) (Elizabeth Bell L of R for Intention to Marry - 8 months, age 25.)"
Spades has indicated the possibility of confirming that.
I do not have a cause of death or a death cert for John Johnston.
Any hints would be greatly appreciated.
As an additional piece of information, Peter McGill, who was discharged with John Johnston at Port Chalmers seems to be the same person who died at Milton 21 October 1894 aged 68. He was a native of Stonykirk, Wigtonshire, Scotland according to his gravestone.
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"The wedding record I have is a transcription written in one hand so cannot tell whether they were literate."
If properly transcribed the document should show signature names or x mark of John Johnston and/or x mark of Elizabeth Johnston.
Minniehaha.
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In respect to John Johnston, his death according to the affidavit of John Bell occurred at Balclutha 10 October 1875.
If his age is correct on his wedding cert he was born in 1823. If he is actually the man who left ship in Port Chalmers in 1849 ages 23 he was born c1826. So that suggests at the time of death he was aged 49 -52.
The nearest to picking him up on BDM NZ is this John Johnston.
1875/5748 Johnston John 42Y
This man seems to have died 04/11/1875 which is different. And the age is also different. Can anyone tell me where this fellow died?
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Did you see the other 1875 death, for John JOHNSTONE?
Sadly, no age given, but still a possibility.
Spades
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Me again. That John Johnstone seems to have died in the first half of the year.
By way of an update two days ago I received records from Archives on Caversham Industrial School in 1884 and 1885. The older two William and Catherine would have left before then. There is a Mary Johnston and a Mary Johnstone. The latter is the correct age. Could be her. Agin the spelling is Johnstone. Interestingly the court record which records the readmitting of Catherine and Mary in 1881 (Evening Star) spells their surname as Johnstone. So it could be her but cannot be certain.
Archives advised that they have no records for the school prior to this date.
My guess is that John Johnston and his wife Elizabeth are buried at Popotunoa but the records of that are lost.
Thanks for your help
Murray
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Hi Murray,
Have you approached the Balclutha branch of the New Zealand Society of Genealogists? They may hold records not in the public domain.
http://www.balcluthagenealogy.org.nz/
An email explaining your search and asking for help might be worthwhile.
Spades
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Yes I have been in touch with the Balclutha group.
They have been very helpful but were unable to identify a grave site or record.
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Further to replies #14 & 18 I know you have eliminated this one, but for the record .....
Birth:
1870/32297 Johnston Mary Wylie Elizabeth John
Death:
1871/7560 Johnston Mary Wylie 10M
Part of a post by emsquared:
"According to BDM NZ records my Mary Johnston has different parents."
Can you explain this please.
Minniehaha.
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Thanks Minniehaha
There is a Mary Bell Johnston recorded on BDM NZ. She was born on 9 September 1870 to Mary and George. The Bell middle name is interesting.
My Mary Bell Johnston's death record and marriage record state her parents are John Johnston and Elizabeth Bell, A close DNA match between myself and a descendant of Jane (b1864) also supports my Mary Bell Johnston being a child of John and Elizabeth.
I also note the birth date of the Mary Bell Johnston on BDM is only six months before Joan born 25 March 1871.
I have made two of approaches to BDM NZ to see if there is a mistake in the system. In each case I have been told to expect a reply in 15 days but none has been forthcoming.
All legal documents indicate there were 7 children in this Johnston family. And the commitment of William, Catherine and Mary to the Caversham Industrial School in October 1876 links these three children together as siblings.
I suspect an issue with the BDM NZ records but not proven. I guess there could be two Mary Bell Johnstons and mine just has not been recorded. But it seems unlikely.
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Hi Emsquared,
I have the Intention to Marry Notice for you.
Could you please PM me with your email address.
Spades
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Images sent.
Spades
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Murray has asked me to look at some of these details with fresh eyes and all of that! Not sure it will help as you guys have already gone through plenty here.
Can I ask some questions first? On the shipping manifest in 1849 and the arrival in NZ of a John Johnston from Wigton. Does it actually mention Scotland or is it just simply Wigton? I couldn't see a possible John J on the 1841 census in Wigtownshire, but lots elsewhere in Scotland for that year with undeterminded birth place (so frustrating the 1841 census ::)).
However, there is a possible Johnston family in Wigton, Cumberland to consider in 1841 (if there is no reference to Scotland on that 1849 list).
William Johnston 50 inn keeper
Elizabeth Johnston 45
John Johnston 15
Charles Johnston 13
Bridget Johnston 10
Joseph Johnston 5
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M73F-DF5
This John is the only one showing in 1841 as not born in the county. If he lived there from very young, not surprising he would refer to himself as born in Wigton. The rest of the family were all born in the county.
Parents with youngest Joseph in 1851 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG24-JF8
Murray, the other question I asked you via PM is whether you know the name of Elizabeth Bell's parents back in Scotland. You have mentioned that you have more info for her.
I see from the list of children for John and Elizabeth (Bell) that the names of Elizabeth and William could fit well here:
• Elizabeth Johnston, born 1859 (folio #334) Dunedin
• Martha Johnston, born 1861 (folio #439) Taieri
• Anne Johnston, born 1862 (folio #325) Christchurch*
• Jane Johnston, born 1864 (folio #611) Dunedin
• William Johnston, born 1866 (folio #979) Warepa
• Catherine Johnston, born 1868 (folio #1291) Kaihiku, Warepa
• Mary Wylie Johnston, born 1870 (folio #1084) Oamaru*
• Joan Johnston, born 1871, Jan. to March quarter (folio #1443) Popotunoa
*These are not likely part of the family because of their place of birth.
Monica :)
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Nothing for John from 1841 in family trees on a/try. There are a few trees for other siblings. These show mother Elizabeth's surname as Tremble and this marriage for her and William:
William Johnston and Elizabeth Tremble
Marriage 18 Aug 1818 Wigton, Cumberland, England
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4QF7-JRPZ
Murray, struggling to see how we could link your John with this family (indeed any family) without some further hard pieces of info for him...
Monica
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Thanks Monica
Elizabeth Bell's parents were John Bell and Martha McLean. Martha is used for the second child of John and Elizabeth. The children are now confirmed as Elizabeth, Martha, Jane, William, Catherine, Mary Bell and Joan,
The Anne and Mary Wylie were not part of the family. William,Catherine and Mary have been further confirmed through Police reports that saw them entering the Caversham Industrial School as orphans in 1876. The youngest (Joan) was raised by another family and the eldest three avoided this.
I guess that parents of John would possibly be William and Elizabeth using Scottish naming patterns (if I have the rules right).
But as we said previously, John Johnston is a very common name.
Murray
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Hi MonicaL,
Re your question quoted here:
On the shipping manifest in 1849 and the arrival in NZ of a John Johnston from Wigton. Does it actually mention Scotland or is it just simply Wigton?
[/quote]
If you go to the link given in Reply#5 you'll see that it only states"...Wigton..."
Spades
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Thanks for confirming, spades :) So there is a chink of hope then for that Wigton Johnston family. How to move forward though now :-\ Tricky...
Monica
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I will make a further enquiry to the Presbyterian Archives in Dunedin to see if they hold any additional information on John. They have been very helpful in the past. While I have a transcript of the marriage of Elizabeth and John, it tells me nothing of their parents. I assume that this information was not collected at that time.
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The nearest to picking him up on BDM NZ is this John Johnston.
1875/5748 Johnston John 42Y
This man seems to have died 04/11/1875 which is different. And the age is also different. Can anyone tell me where this fellow died?
Hello emsquared
At the following link, the details of the death of the John JOHNSTON who died 4 November 1875.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TT18751106.2.7
~ Lu
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Thanks Lucy
According to the affidavit of John Bell my John Johnston died 10 October 1875 at Balclutha. This is relatively close to Waiwera where he was farming,
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9ND-PJ9?i=394&cc=1865481
Murray