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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: reigns1989 on Tuesday 09 June 20 13:04 BST (UK)
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Hi.
I apologise in advance if this is a daft question or has been asked before... but i've searched and can't find anything thus far.
My great great grandmother Kate Carr had three children in Loughlinstown workhouse, one of which William Alfred Carr - my great grandfather.
I'm attempting to find out who their father was. My surname is Carr and it came from Kate's side of the family as the father is listed as unknown. I'm very intrigued to know what my family name would have been in a 'normal' situation where the father was known.
However I have heard stories that the man who was the father of the children was potentially the man she married, John Butler. I've also heard that the man that was the father of William was the man that ran the Loughlinstown Workhouse.
My question is, is there a way to find out who was running or working at the workhouse at the time of William being born, to try and see if there's any link to the family tree i've already got. Perhaps it was John Butler, or he had some dealings with running it - but i don't know how to check this for sure.
Thanks for your help in advance.
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That would be the Rathdown Union Workhouse.
See: http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Rathdown/
It states at the bottom of that page that any records will be at the National Archives of Ireland.
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The master of Rathdown Union and Workhouse at the time William was born (March 1901) was Sylvester Byrne, he is shown on the 1901 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Killiney/Shanganagh/1318008/) in the same townland as the workhouse.
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Thankyou!
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Not sure if it helps you out, I have got my great great Grandfather admission records to Rathdown union workhouse on Find My Past.
Shows the dates and what he was admitted with and then unfortunately his death and the cause of death.
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Apologies for the delayed response on this, i stopped looking for a while but am now actively researching.
I've the birth record from Loughlinstown workhouse and the father isn't recorded for William Alfred.
There must have been someone who knew who it was, but whether that was passed on to anyone i'm not sure.
If anyone has any other ideas on how i might be able to find out i'd still greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
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Sometimes the baptism may name the errant father?
Some clerics/priests liked to "name & shame" ;D
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KGarrad thanks for the suggestion - hadn't actually checked those.
Unfortunately it looks like him, his brother and his sister were not baptised for some reason, or i can't find the records at least.
I may have to revert to ancestryDNA myself and see if i can get anything that way - but it seems a bit of a dead end.
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The baptism records online generally cut off in the late 1800s so you would probably have to check directly with the appropriate parish.
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Thanks for that Atha i didn't know this.
I'll have to see what I can find out in terms of contact details for the Parish as i'm in England.
Thanks again!
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If it's any help, the parish is Ballybrack (my grandmother was born to an unmarried mother in Loughlinstown in 1923). It's the Church of St. Alphonsus and Columba, Church Avenue, Killiney - http://www.ballybrack-killiney-parish.org/.
I ended up taking the Ancestry DNA test to try and find grandmother's birth parents - it's been an interesting journey ;)
Out of curiosity - did you look up the birth record on irishgenealogy.ie? I had some luck for the father of an illegitimate great uncle where the father was listed on the cancelled cert on the same page.
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Out of curiosity - did you look up the birth record on irishgenealogy.ie?
There's no father listed.
William 1901
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01967/1758501.pdf
Also James in 1905.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01797/1704867.pdf
KG
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Hi KG,
Thanks for your help.
I did indeed look on irishgenealogy and as you've seen nothing there.
I had ancestryDNA for Christmas and have already sent it off so hopefully I get some results in the next month or two.
Thanks for the parish info that I didn't know so thankyou for that!
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Hi, everyone.
I wondered if anyone may be able to suggest something I may have missed. I have 2 questions, apologies its a long one.
I've searched irishgenealogy and the records show his mother Catherine Carr but no father is listed.
I sent off AncestryDNA on 28th December and also have emailed the parish where the Workhouse was to see if they have any more info.
Just so I'm sure, is there anything else I can try while I wait for the DNA?
Also, story has is that when my grandad was in the Irish Guards over in Germany he may have had a child with a German lady - we don't know for sure. Obviously I'm interested in persuing this as i feel if there is someone they deserve to know about their father.
I know the potential mothers first name and a rough time period it could have been. Is there anywhere that anyone would suggest looking?
thanks for your help!
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Good morning reigns 1989. Did you find out anything from the DNA test?
I was fascinated to see the 1901 census returns posted by athacliath62. I never knew that there were nuns involved in the running of the workhouse. For some reason I assumed it was all lay people and run by the Poor Law union. I have lived near it all my life and never queried how it was run when it was a workhouse.
I was saddened when I saw that Kate had her children in the workhouse but have been assured that it wasn't because she was destitute and an occupant but, at that time part of the workhouse was used by locals for maternity reasons.
Kate was my grandmother's sister and probably had her own reason for keeping the name of her children' father secret. She was remarkable in the fact that she kept and cared for the children in what must have been a very difficult Roman Catholic environment at the time.
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This may not help Reigns1989 but others may be of use to other -
My grandmother wrote to the AIRR project in Hawkins House, Dublin a few years ago to see what information they had on her. We received a page of the minutes from one of the Board meetings.
It appears my grandmother spent the first ten months of her life in the Workhouse before going to a foster home on the Commons Road (just across the dual carriageway from hospital). She was one of several children "boarded out" from this place.
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/85e31-access-to-institutional-and-related-records-airr-project/
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Hello spstevenson,
Thank you so much for that link to AIRR. I am sure Reigns 1989 will find it helpful. I am going to explore this to find out for myself if Gt. Aunt Kate's children were fostered out for a few years. It will also be helpful in my search for details of family on my Paternal side of the family. Like so many families various members, through poverty, spent time going in to the workhouse.
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We are searching for any trace of our ancestor Mary Chambers born circa 1935 before she left Ireland (County Dublin) in 1950 with other Earl Grey Orphans bound for Sydney NSW via Plymouth on the Maria. The Maria came into Plymouth Port late after it was discovered that 38 orphans to be transported on the ship were discovered to be suffering from the 'The Itch', in order to give them time to recover. It set sail on 7.3.1950. Mary was listed on the transportation document as being able to read but not write, that her profession was nursemaid and that she was Catholic.
A reference that a researcher in Australia read when he visited the Archives when they were in Dublin Castle read a government report on emigrants suffering from 'The Itch' and noted that a Mary Chambers name was listed amongst the 38 girls and that she came from Rathdown Workhouse. The reference that he took down for this archived material was CSORP 1850 0 2718. We have not been able to verify the researcher's notes yet and so we are looking a copy of the archived reference above or for any information on a Mary Chambers from Rathdown Union Workhouse (or any workhouse) who might have been discharged circa early 1950 bound for Plymouth.
Can anyone assist please?
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Have you tried Family Search Dublin workhouse records.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/4496114
The reference number doesn’t appear to be in the online collection in the National Archives
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/advanced-search/#!/
I’ll sadly admit to being pretty useless using that site.
I did notice there seems to be forward slashing used in the reference numbers
So that number would be CSO/RP/1850/ not sure how it would finish as I didn’t see any 1850s.
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Yes I have tried Family Search and she isn't in there anywhere. I tried looking up information in the National Archives database and all I get is 0 results. It's so frustrating!
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Kate was my grandmother's sister and probably had her own reason for keeping the name of her children' father secret.
This is quite misconceived. Kate Carr wasn't keeping the father's name secret. The father wasn't named because that was the (British) law. Illegitimate children legally didn't have a father!
So putative father was not supposed to be named, even if known (which was not always the case).
As you seem to know about the family, can you say where they were located on the 1901 and 1911 census? Might help to find baptism records, which may record father - if Catholic. If Protestant they will almost certainly follow British law and not name the father.
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I was fascinated to see the 1901 census returns posted by athacliath62. I never knew that there were nuns involved in the running of the workhouse. For some reason I assumed it was all lay people and run by the Poor Law union. I have lived near it all my life and never queried how it was run when it was a workhouse.
They (the nuns) weren't running the workhouse. The workhouse was of course run by the Poor Law Union.
Some Catholic religious orders specialized as nursing sisters. Those on the 1901 census return will have been employed in that capacity, along with the other nurses on the same list.
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A suggestion: William may have know his father's name. So, has OP got William's marriage registration? Does he name a father on that document?
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Kate Carr and her son William were in the workhouse on the date of the 1901 census, so there isn't a "normal" entry for them.
Where were they in 1911 I wonder?
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Have you tried Family Search Dublin workhouse records.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/4496114
The reference number doesn’t appear to be in the online collection in the National Archives
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/advanced-search/#!/
I’ll sadly admit to being pretty useless using that site.
I did notice there seems to be forward slashing used in the reference numbers
So that number would be CSO/RP/1850/ not sure how it would finish as I didn’t see any 1850s.
Kate and William are in the workhouse records, but they are just basic details - date of admission, discharge, age, residence, marital condition (single), religion, and reason for admission (pregnant)
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Out of curiosity - did you look up the birth record on irishgenealogy.ie?
There's no father listed.
William 1901
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01967/1758501.pdf
Also James in 1905.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01797/1704867.pdf
KG
According to the workhouse records, James died in the house on 11/April/1905.
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Kate's address when she was admitted in 1901 was Kingstown, ie. Dun Laoghaire.
When admitted in 1904 her address was Bray.
Both times occupation listed as servant.
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Here is William Carr as "W.C" on the 1901 census, 1 month old.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003741860/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003741860/)
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There are two female "C.C." in the workhouse in the 1901 census, one aged 22, one 20.
The one aged 22 was in the lunatic asylum, described as "congenital," so she can be discounted.
That leaves the 20 yo "C.C." on the same page as William as the remaining candidate for Catherine (Kate) Carr
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003741860/ (https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003741860/)
She is listed as an unmarried servant, born Co. Dublin, residing in Kingstown (Dun Laoghaire).
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This may be Kate's birth in 1881, if we believe the 1901 age of 20 [Edit - see later posts showing variable age]
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02807/2030071.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02807/2030071.pdf)
However, as Kate's son was named William, this 1879 birth may be more likely, as father William
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02908/2065645.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02908/2065645.pdf)
Parish records show another birth of a Catherine Carr in 1881 in Kingstown, which appears to have gone unregistered - parents Hugh Carr and Maria Keating.
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I can see four workhouse admissions that may be for Kate, all under name "Catherine," between 1900 and 1904. They have different addresses, and ages, so not clear that they are all the same person.
01/04 to 4/5/1900, age 23, address 5 Doluns(?) Petersons Lane
Reason for admission - Dr. Garand's note. Arrested at Chancery St. Dispensary PC 203D
[Latter is presumably policeman's ID number]
9/2/ to 3/5/1901, age 20, address Kingstown, reason pregnant. William born during this period.
5/11 to 12/11/1904, age 26, address Bray, reason pregnant.
15/11/1904 to 2/5/1905, age 26, address Bray, reason pregnant. James born and died during this period.
If the first admission is Kate, then I think it reasonable to suppose that she may not have known the identity of the father.
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01/04 to 4/5/1900, age 23, address 5 Doluns(?) Petersons Lane
Reason for admission - Dr. Garand's note. Arrested at Chancery St. Dispensary PC 203D
[Latter is presumably policeman's ID number]
The Irish Prison registers contain over 50 (!) records for a Kate Carr, born ca 1876/77, Tralee, nee Curtis, but living Dublin north side. Married John Carr in Dublin in 1892 as a minor.
Prison records from late 1890s to 1910s, for offenses including assault, drunkenness, prostitution, child abuse, obscene language, begging, and soliciting. Clearly a different Kate Carr from the mother of William - but possibly the Catherine in the above entry? The Chancery St. dispensary was certainly in the north inner city, consistent with where she lived. The potential issue with that though, is that someone from the north city should have been admitted to the North Dublin Union. Difficult to see why that Kate would have been brought to Rathdown Union workhouse.
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In the Dublin resources sub-forum there is a post with a link for a history of the Rathdown Workhouse, 1838-1923.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674660.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674660.0)
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Wexflyer what wonderful posts. I have not looked in here for a long time and was delighted to see your posts just now.
Catherine Carr (Kate) was my grand aunt. Although she and her sisters were very close to my mother her four children born out of wedlock and who their fathers were was never discussed. James born 1905 sadly died soon after birth and the three remaining children were kept by Kate. In those days that was an amazing thing as church and peer pressure must have been huge.
I have checked all baptism records and the fathers were not named on any cert. The family was Roman Catholic and lived in Kingstown.
Thank you for clarifying the role of nuns in the workhouse.
William never knew his father's name and there is a blank in that space on William's marriage cert.
Kate is listed on the 1911 census with her father and brother at the family cottage but I don't know where the two children were staying.
Thank you for the information for where Kate was living in 1904 Bray ( I never knew that).
Kate would have been the 20 year old listed on the records in 1901. She was born in 1881.
You have the correct birth record 7 Nov 1881 father Christopher.
Some of William's grandchildren have done DNA tests and have found potential leads to probable father.
I must return to rechecking my info on Kate.
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How do you edit posts in this blog please? I realise that I wrote 1950 instead of 1850 several times. I can't find an edit button.
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How do you edit posts in this blog please? I realise that I wrote 1950 instead of 1850 several times. I can't find an edit button.
There is a limited time window in which editing is possible. After that, you can't make changes.
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How do you edit posts in this blog please? I realise that I wrote 1950 instead of 1850 several times. I can't find an edit button.
There is a limited time window in which editing is possible. After that, you can't make changes.
You can amend your post within 24 hours by clicking "Modify". If you want to change it after 24 hours you need to ask a moderator to do it for you.