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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: zalib on Sunday 07 June 20 07:10 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to find the names of the clergy in the C of E church in Gilling, Yorkshire particularly in the period 1750 to 1800 and the years that John Hall may have been there.
I'm aware of the Clergy Database and am questioning the accuracy of the data there. I have conflicting information for John Hall of Chew Magna, Somerset. The Clergy database says that he came from Hereford via Hope Mansell. Newspapers at the time say he came from Gilling, Yorkshire. If he came from Hereford to Chew Magna how did he end up marrying a lady from Brignall in Yorkshire, not far from Gilling!
There is not much info for John Hall of Gilling in the Clergy Database.
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It looks to me (from the Clergy database) that these are two different people.
The John Hall at Chew Magna was ordained priest in 1777 in the diocese of Hereford so it could be said that he came from Hereford to serve his curacy at Hope Mansell in 1777 and was at Chew Magna from 1787. It's still possible that he was born in Gilling.
The John Hall at Gilling was curate there in 1783, and was apparently only there in 1783 and nowhere else.
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The Brignall register is clear - on August 14th 1782 Sarah Blackburne otp married John Hall of Gilling.
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Thank you both for the important feedback. The mention in the marriage records confirms my developing thoughts, and I agree that there appear to be two people so I'll have to research the Yorkshire person now and also see what the Hope Mansell records contain.
I cannot see why the Hope Mansell person would have skipped up to Yorkshire for such a short period.
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From the Gilling records it seems that John and Sarah did not have a happy start to their marriage. The deaths of John and Sarah Hall, both recorded as children of the Revd John Hall, are recorded and no mention of other children, though this could well be because they moved away.
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Looking at the clergy database, there are 2 entries for what seems to be the same John Hall. There is John Hall 1780-81, deaconed in York diocese in 1780 and priested in Chester diocese in 1781 and said to be curate at Brignall in 1780. Then there is John Hall, 1783, curate at Gilling.
Sarah Blackburne's brother (I think) became vicar of Brignall in 1780 and stayed there until 1816. He was called Francis as was their father who was Rector of Richmond 1728-89 and Archdeacon of Cleveland 1750-87, so a big cheese in the Church.
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regarding the children: I have not found the Gilling records yet (don't have access on FindMyPast) but can see several names for Gilling deaths and son John with father Revd John HALL in baptism. There's also an earlier John baptism with parents John and Sarah but no 'Revd'. Good info, might put some more money on FindMyPast!
When in Chew Magna the couple had 4 children, Jane 1889, Hannah Mary 1891, Sarah 1894 and Theophilla 1894. This seems to include a second child named Sarah, which could give a clue to parents! I cannot trace Jane or Sarah. Hannah Mary married Thomas POYNTON in Somerset and a number of their records were passed to the Somerset Heritage Centre.Theophilla married William WRIGHT in Somerset.
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Regarding deacons, curates etc: Two nephews? of Sarah (Francis and William) spent time in Chew Magna as curates, so it pays to have family contacts! I cannot trace John HALL of Gilling in BMD. If he had come from Herefordshire I have a problem because the Herefeford JH was made a priest in Hope Mansell, but would he have taken a curate position in Gilling and Brignall, it doesn't make sense to me, but I don't understand the workings of the church.
I'm sticking with the thought that the Hereford part of JH history belongs to a different John HALL but now I need to trace where he was after 1787.
Thanks for all the help.
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The Gilling West records are transcribed, including any notes in the register, on FreeReg, though not many references to the Rev John Hall.
The Brignall registers record the baptisms of two sons of the Rev Francis Blackburne, vicar - Francis on Dec.5th, 1781 and William on Nov 4th, 1783.
Is it the Chew Magna John Hall who is of interest to you?
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John and Sarah were still in Gilling West in 1789. The register records the burial of their daughter Jane in November 1789, though I see you give a Jane being born to them in Chew Magna that year.Sarah's father died in 1787 (I wrote 1789 by mistake for the time he stopped being Rector) so his death would reduce John's hope of preferment in North Yorkshire.
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Having transcribed many records on FreeReg it was careless of me to not look there!
I have a baptism 17 Apr 1789 Jane daughter of Revd John HALL Vicar of Chew Magna and Dundry and Sarah his wife. This is in the Chew Magna records. All four children baptised there are identified as children of the Vicar. I cannot trace Jane in Somerset records so it is possible she was baptised in Somerset and taken to Yorkshire for burial.
My quest is not directly related to John HALL. After 10 years of research I'm trying to check or improve the information on some relatives. My 4xgreat grandmother was probably from Wiltshire and lived in Frome Somerset after her husband died. I can't prove this part of the tree, as you know BMDs in the 18th century rarely contain more than a persons name, sometimes an age and rarely a parent. My relative did have strong ties to John HALL vicar of Chew Magna, but I cannot see why, as it's a fair way from Frome. Her granddaughter inherited some property and her mother died when she was very young. John HALL became the trustee of the child's inheritance. HALL was also a trustee for the grandmother when she died. Knowing more about John HALL might lead to more understanding and prove my relatives history. I keep asking 'why Chew Magna?'.
When I realised that the Clergy Database might be misleading me with the link to Herefordshire where I'd been searching I naturally started looking at the Yorkshire data. At this time I still cannot determine where John HALL came from, I'm trying to find him in college records (the Blackburne's all went to Cambridge) and I've pointed out the three people in the Clergy Database to the administrators to see if they can confirm or explain their data.
I do now have more reason to look away from Hereford for links. I also appreciate getting more information on John HALL, I don't mind documenting these other people for others to learn from.
The search continues ... thanks, David
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I have been delving a bit more into the history of Gilling, a place I know fairly well. The lord of the manor in the late 18th/early 19th century was John Wharton of Gillingwood Hall, whose family seat was at Skelton over on the Yorkshire coast. He was MP for Beverley. Wharton was the patron of Gilling church and pretty well all appointments there were family. At the beginning of the 19th century the rector was his brother William.
In April 1808 William married the Hon Charlotte Dundas, daughter of Lord Dundas of Aske Hall whose family own to this day large areas of land round Richmond. They married at Easby, just outside Richmond. This is significant for you because
a) the marriage was announced in the Salisbury and Wiltshire Journal, April 25th 1808, so one of the families must have had links in the area.
b)Further delving revealed that the Whartons real surname was Hall. They had to change it to claim an inheritance.
If you are interested in the set up at Gilling, or Brignall, there are very good entries for them in the North Yorkshire section of Genuki,
Mag
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All very interesting, I too get drawn into fascinating relationships between people, but I need to stay focussed on the Chew Magna and Frome side of the story. I looked at WHARTON in Wiltshire and there are too many of them to pursue.
I've found that the Brasenose College record for John HALL mentions Herefordshire, not his father and not the appointment to Chew Magna or Hope Mansell. The additional information came from another document that I'm still looking for. The Hope Mansell information seems to say he was at New College, so I'm looking for a new John HALL related to that.
The Gilling information is very useful and something to look at later.
My thinking at this time is that John HALL may have come from Ross, Herefordshire, did not get assigned to Hope Mansell but went to Gilling/Richmond, and then to Chew Magna.
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The sponsor of John HALL for the Chew Magna parish was Rev Theophilus LINDSEY. Sarah BLACKBURNE's mother Hannah HOTHAM was previously married to Joshua ELSWORTH and had a daughter they called Hannah. The daughter married Theophilus LINDSEY.
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Having looked closely at the codes the John HALL in Yorkshire did not go to college, so the references to Brasenose and Hope Mansell are for a different person. Person 134943 in the Clergy Database shows his qualification as 'lit', "The common abbreviation for 'literate' or 'literatus'. Its use indicates that a clergyman did not possess a degree, but that he was judged by the bishop to possess sufficient learning to qualify for ordination". This Gilling John HALL went to Chew Magna Somerset.
The HALL/WHARTON names don't quite fit at this time, John HALL who married a SPENSER changed his name to HALL SPENSER in 1720s? They had a son John who changed that name to WHARTON in abt 1780. I will come back to those names as the first John may have had a brother who would have called his son John and would have remained HALL.
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Well, what a fascinating history you have unearthed! I have been reading up about Theophilus. who has his own Wikepedia page. He and Francis Blackburne senior were of a heretical tendency it seems. By the time Theophilus was putting John Hall forward to be vicar of Chew Magna he was no longer an Anglican clergyman but minister at the Essex Street Unitarian Chapel, which he had founded. One could write a history of the C of E in the late 18th century based simply on the goings on of these clergy.
Do you have a date for John Hall's death?
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I did not look into Theophilus' history til now, and it is a wow moment. There are numerous questions to ask - he left the Church of England in 1782 but was the sponsor for John HALL going to Chew Magna in 1788. How did that happen, the church record shows LINDSEY was at the Unitarian Essex St Chapel? Before HALL went to Chew Magna there was a court case between the widow of the previous Chew Magna vicar (Rev PYKE) and LINDSEY, I guess she objected to LINDSEY's recommendation, but the court found in favour of LINDSEY (Salisbury and Winchester Journal - Monday 30 July)
John HALL: born abt 1755, died in Chew Magna 20 Apr 1841 (buried 26 Apr), age at burial 84 (Gloucester Journal).
Married Sarah BLACKBURNE 14 Aug 1782 in Brignall, Yorks. Sarah died May 1811, Chew Magna (buried 11 May).
Children: John 1784-1784, Jane 1789-1789, Hannah Mary 1791-1844, Sarah 1794-?, Theophilla 1795-1839.
John HALL married Harriet Mary BALL 1 May 1817, bride from Wrington b.1769 d.1832
I've read several articles about Theophilus but have not matched any names to the John HALL side of the story, except Francis BLACKBURNE. It's worth repeating your observation that BLACKBURNE died in 1787 and John HALL may have lost some backing as a result.
I have not found anything to suggest that John HALL was in any way non-conformist.
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I see that a William Hall comes later to Gilling, first as curate the as vicar. unlikely to be John's brother as he has been to Trinity Cambridge, but interesting.
The vicar who was at Gilling when John Hall was curate was Robert Lascelles, stated on his record to be son of William Lascelles of Durham. Looking at William Lascelles will, on the Durham University Inheritance Database, I see that he refers to his cousin Joseph Hall. I suspect that Halls, Lascelles and Wharton are all connected to each other and looking after each other.
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Yes, I agree with the likely relationship of these families. I was also thinking that there must have have been a strong link to North Yorkshire for John HALL to return his child for burial there after the death in Chew Magna. The burial was in Gilling, not Richmond where the mother was from.
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I wondered if they were staying up at Gilling when Jane died - still suggests, as you say, that they had strong links there. however, I can't find any obvious family there except perhaps the rector himself, Robert Lascelles. When Lascelles was made chaplain to the Duke of Newcastle (also the Earl of Lincoln) Lascelles was referred to as Robert Lascelles of Skelton, Yorks, though he was actually born in Durham. Skelton was where the Hall-Stevensons (the later Whartons) hung out. I haven't had much success at finding many records for Skelton. What is needed here is a nice census record saying who was living with whom and where they all came from originally!
My initial interest in your request came from the reference to Brignall. One branch of my family came from there and was recorded there during the 18th and early 19th century. However, I must say i have found the doings of the Hall/Lascelles/ Wharton family fascinating and a big contrast to the Aldersons of Brignall, farm labourers!
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The memoirs of Theophilus LINDSEY have this: during his residence at the Duchess of Somerset's, Mr LINDSEY so recommended himself by his discreet and exemplary behaviour, that a worthy and pious lady, Mrs PEARCE ... bequeathed to him without his knowledge the next presentation to the rectory of Chew Magna, near Bristol. The living became vacant after Mr LINDSEY had left the church ... And honourably resisting all the proposals which were made to him to dispose of it to great advantage, he presented it to a worthy clergyman, Mr HALL, the brother-in-law of Mrs LINDSEY, who married Archdeacon BLACKBURNE's youngest daughter, and who is now the respectable incumbent.
The recommendation probably came in about 1750, before LINDSEY married. Interesting how things worked back then. I have not traced Mrs PEARCE.
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He seems to be one for charming the ladies, doesn't he. There's the one who insisted on being buried with him. Really creepy. He wasn't a believer in false modesty either - "discreet and exemplary behaviour." He sounds as if he's escaped from a Jane Austen novel.
No, I can't work out who Mrs Pearce might be. Looking back through the patrons of Chew Magna, I can't work out who the patron might be. There seems to be a different person nominating the new vicar each time., whereas at Gilling it was always the Whartons.
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In Essays and Addresses by Rev H McLachlan it says "Mrs PEARCE was nee LOWTHER, a near relative of the then Lord Lonsdale". I have not found any other records. Have been looking at trees etc for the Duchess of Somerset (who was born in Wiltshire) but these names are not coming up.
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The 1st Viscount Lonsdale was John LOWTHER, he married Katherine THYNNE, part of the THYNNE family connected to Longleat, Wilts., where the Duchess of Somerset mentioned above was born. If Mrs PEARCE was linked to this family she would perhaps have some power over appointments in the church, but I cannot find any more about her yet.
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Various connections, the families discussed have many inter-relationships:
Edward TROTTER of Skelton Castle married Mary, d of Sir John LOWTHER in 1600's.
John HALL(-STEVENSON) of Skelton Castle, sons John HALL-STEVENSON (who took the name WHARTON) and William HALL (became Vicar of Gilling some time after our John HALL). The JH-S's were patrons of Gilling St Agatha in the time I'm looking at.
In abt 1751 Mrs PEARCE (nee LOWTHER) bequeathed Chew Magna to Theophilus LINDSEY, unbeknown to him.
In abt 1756 LINDSEY wrote to the Earl of Huntingdon about the accession of James LOWTHER.
If my John HALL is related to these people it would have to be through Joseph HALL of Skelton Castle, father of John HALL-STEVENSON, perhaps Joseph had a brother who had a son.
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I have worked out most of the family tree of the Halls/Lascelles/ Whartons and typed it all out nicely, then caught my hand on the keyboard and deleted the lot! Will try again later. The key things are the marriages of the 2 Gibson sisters of Stockton on Tees to 2 of the Durham gentry - Joseph Hall and William Lascelles.
However, there is a possibility that your John Hall is the nephew of the first John Hall-Stevenson through his brother Thomas. According to a family tree in an elderly history of Cleveland I found on Google Books Thomas, born 1725 (who is listed as a Colonel) married someone Carter from Cambridgeshire and they had a son John. i can't find their wedding or that of Joseph Hall and Catherine Trotter, Thomas's parents.
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Thanks. I've been looking at those trees. I can see a fair bit of information for George HALL who married Corbetta SMYTH, but cannot find Thomas' marriage (or anything else) other than the tree notes you've seen. With George, the tree shows him as a Colonel but I found a reference to him being a captain, so am being cautious about Thomas being a General. There seems to be a lot of BMD information missing for the Skelton/Guisborough area. The tree shows a sister Elizabeth but I'm not able to find both John and Elizabeth baptism at the same place.
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Another, belated, attempt at the family tree.
Gibson sister 1, Dorothy, married Thomas Lascelles in 1691. They had a son William, who married Alice and their son was Robert who became vicar of Gilling and had John Hall as his curate. Dorothy and William's wills can be found on Durham Uni's N E Inheritance database, now on Familysearch.
Gibson sister 2, Frances, married Joseph Hall in Durham Cathedral in 1687. The sons I have found are John 1689, Stephen 1691 and Joseph, September 1693.
Joseph at some point married Katherine Trotter and children i have found or know of are John 1718, Thomas 1725, Frances 1727 and George 1724. The last 3 were all baptized in Durham. I have not found Joseph and Katherine's marriage or John's baptism.
John married Ann Stevenson, granddaughter of one of the Whartons of Gillingwood Hall and added her name to his.They had a son John, who died unmarried (I think) and Joseph, who died the year after his father. So the estate was inherited by his son, John Hall-Stevevenson, grandson of the first John Hall Stevenson and he was the one who changed his name to Wharton for the inheritance. His great uncle Thomas seems to have had a son John, as per previous posts, but can't find records for Thomas, his marriage or his children. Mag
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178382182/joseph-hall
We may not have their marriage, but we do have their grave! Joseph Hall and Katherine Trotter may have inherited Skelton, but they seem to have stuck with Durham, at least for their burial. What is interesting is that John Hall-Stevenson is buried with them and that he has gone back to being plain John Hall, and no mention of his wife.
The Lascelles family got an outing in The Northern Echo yesterday. The branch in Northallerton did very well for themselves and became MPs for the town and eventually, somehow or other, (I'm not well up on the aristocracy or royal family) became Earls of Harewood and related to the royal family. They are some sort of cousins of the Durham branch, because William Lascelles in his will says that if his cousin Joseph Hall should die without issue, the property William is leaving to him should go instead to Daniel Lascelles of Durham. Daniel is one of the people named in the article. However, the headline of the article reveals its current interest "Slave owning MPs of Northallerton " , or something like that. They owned several slave estates. Mag
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I'm still processing your information but can quickly provide some dates that came from royaldescentblogspot.
Katherine TROTTER b 17 Sep 1693 Skelton Castle, bap 12 Oct 1693 Old Saints Church, Skelton-in-Cleveland d. 29 Sep 1740 Durham, bur 4 Oct 1740 St Margaret Ch. Crossgate, Durham. m 14 Dec 1716 Old Saints Church, Skelton-in-Cleveland to Joseph HALL of Durham.
Joseph HALL bap 19 Sep 1693 St Margaret Ch. Crossgate, Durham bur there 27 Aug 1731 son of Joseph HALL of Market Place Durham (d.1701) and Frances GIBSON. The only child mentioned is Frances Elizabeth HALL bap 16 Apr 1727, Durham.
It was William HALL who changed his name to WHARTON and was vicar of Gilling I believe. John also changed his name to WHARTON and became a member of parliament and demolished the castle.
I've been working on the Chew Magna end of the story and the Clergy Database (CDB) information. The CDB says John HALL came from Oxford and his father was Thoams HALL of Ross Herefordshire. I was wondering about the father since we're looking at Colonel or General Thomas HALL of Skelton. Could the CDB have the right name but wrong everything else? Army people move around. I cannot find any marriage for Thomas HALL and a CARTER of Cambridge, nor can I find him in Herefordshire with any wife. I cannot find the daughter Elizabeth either, I hoped to find an Eliz. and John baptised in the same place with father Thomas.
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Just found a book on Google, Evangelicalism in the Church of England C.1790-c.1890, that talks of Chew Magna. In an 1801 letter between MORE and WILBERFORCE: The people of whom we have to propitiate are ... and a Socinian Clergyman. He is nearly connected with LINDSEY and DISNEY, his wife a daughter of Archdeacon BLACKBURN of your County. But they seem tolerating and are less prejudiced than some more orthodox folks ... Sad to say, this Rector not only was never at any University but was bred in a Military Academy and was going in the Army when this great living ... was obtained for him. He seems rather unacquainted with religion than hostile to it. He is from Richmond, Yorkshire, his name HALL, his connections the MIDDLEMAYS.
The article has an incorrect reference to Sarah BLACKBURN being Francis' step-daughter.
A quick search for the MILDMAY link has shown no HALL relatives, but the mention of the Army background points towards Thomas HALL.
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That book is quite a find, though I think it is a bit unfair on John Hall. He didn't walk straight from the army into the Chew Magna job, but did a stint as a curate first, which generally involved taking lots of funerals and baptisms. But, as you say, it does suggest Thomas Hall might be a likely father. A pity records for him seem lacking. Having his precise birthdate, I tried "Find a Grave", but that didn't work.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/NRY/GillingWest.. I got the feeling from this that John rather than William was the squire and took the name to inherit the estate. We walked past Gillingwood Hall, rebuilt by John, I think, and certainly where he lived in Gilling. the other day. It is very much a working farm now, though it has a grand front door taken from the original hall which burnt down before John's arrival. There are also various bits of the old hall scattered round the hillside as follies.
I think I got the births of Joseph and Frances's children from FreeReg, but I'll have to check.
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Actually, I realise you didnt ask about about the baptisms of the various Hall children, but anyway I went back and looked at my notes. I got the wedding of Joseph and Frances from FreeReg becausee they married at the cathedral, but early records for St Margaret's aren't on there so i got the baptisms of John, Stephen, Joseph 1693 and and earlier Thomas 1698, from familysearch. The family possibly lived in the Crossgate area, like the Lascelles family, at that time as that is where St Margaret's is, whereas Joseph and Katherine had their children baptized in St Mary-le Bow, by the cathedral.
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Robert LASCELLES bap 29 Apr 1719 at St Margarets, Crossgate, son of William L and Alice (WOODMASS) - from Google book History of Mount Grace. There's a family tree there. It also shows Thomas L (1670-1701) who married Dorothy GIBSON, he was the grandfather of Robert. There's another GIBSON mentioned and a HAWKESWORTH (Frances, sister of Thomas also married a HAWKSWORTH, no E).
George Lawson HALL, brother of Thomas has a distinguished military career, ending as Lieut-General. Cannot find any army records for Thomas though.
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If Thomas HALL was an army man and son John was born in an army camp as Hannah More states, then that could explain an absence of records. I wonder also about brother George being in the Dragoons, who were recruited and based in the Welsh border counties, including Herefordshire. Could the Clergy Database be right about John HALL being the son of Thomas from Ross, Herefs? I cannot tell where Joseph Foster got the information for the Alumni Oxonienses, it certainly was not in the published Brasenose Alumni records.
Although LINDSEY, DISNEY, and even Rev Francis BLACKBURNE to an extent, had Unitarian leanings, I do not know how Hannah More came to say John HALL was a Socinian. She'd only known him briefly at that time. Given the anger about people who differed from the CofE doctrine at that time I'd expect to find the odd angry letter being published complaining about HALL's preaching. The Bath Chronicle and Bristol Times that are online have very little about HALL throughout his time at Chew Magna. [There was another John HALL in Bristol who regularly appears in papers]
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Hannah More was Somerset based, so the stuff about John Hall probably came from general gossip in evangelical circles there, which was no doubt as vague as gossip usually is, rather than from actually knowing him. The guy who sponsored him was unitarian, therefore he must be too. I imagine, given his lack of theological training, that his sermons were probably bland "respect those in authority" generalities. Your idea about the Herefordshire army link is a good one, though the Herefordshire John Hall had been to university, hadn't he? I've just been having a quick look at the National Archives Discovery site for army lists. You can download army lists for particular years (currently free) - I think WO64 or 65.
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Hannah More set up 12 schools. She moved to Chew Magna from Yatton in 1800, and says the local rector spent a long time looking for premises for her school. It was after this she wrote her letter about Chew Magna and HALL. I think she must have known him for a year or so.
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I've exhausted my search around Gilling, though enjoyed discovering so much about an area I had never looked at before and about the church. I hope some other researchers benefit from the data here. Having found out much more about John HALL of Chew Magna it does not help me one bit. I wanted to know why unrelated relatives of mine took so much stock in his services as a trustee, and they even met him. I now have an uneducated vicar with an army background who was used by several families in Chew and Frome for work around deeds and trusts. How does that happen?
I'll add one more bit of of information about the HALL family. Following the John HALL who probably came from Lincs., his son was Joseph who bough Skelton Castle, and testing the likely link to the MIDDLEMAY family of Essex, I found a Thomas HALL and a family link to Grantham before Lincolnshire. Among the papers that John HALL of Chew Magna left to his son was one entitled "Extracts from court rolls, Nottinghamshire and Rutland. 1432-1680." Why would he have that? Does this support the possibility that the Grantham history of the HALL family is correct!
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Pity John Hall had such a common surname. He would have been a lot easier to track down if he'd had a more unusual surname. I wonder if your family and others simply used him because he had links with so many influential people? Or perhaps he was known as a decent guy, who would do his best for you. Having been reading about the 18th century gentry, I realise that he could well have been educated at a local grammar school and most of them gave a decent education, so even though he hadn't been to university he could be quite well read.
The Lincolnshire references are intriguing.
One incidental link to the stories of the Halls and Lascelles families - the church in Durham to which they were linked, St Margaret's, was reported to be in a very poor state of repair in the 1st half of the 18th century. It was so bad that bits of plaster and stone kept falling onto the congregation during services and when it rained......!They may have been prosperous families, but repairing the church obviously wasn't at the top of their priorities.
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A note about Thomas HALL, son of Joseph HALL and Catharine TROTTER.
Thomas' brother John, who changed his name to HALL-STEVENSON has a will (1785), and names Thomas, his brother, several times. One reference calls him Lieutenant-General Thomas HALL. The list of British Generals on Wikipedia names Thomas HALL as being promoted to General in 1796 and died in 1809.
Wikipedia references the Book of Dignitaries, Generals of the Army, and in appointments for May 8 1796 lists Thomas HALL, died 1809, age 84. That age matches his known baptism in 1725. I am going to assume that this is the father of John HALL, curate of Gilling and vicar of Chew Magna.
Unlike his brother George Lawson HALL who has a bit of history online, i am yet to find any other army records for Thomas HALL.
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That's something of a breakthrough, isn't it? Still leaves the mystery of whom he married. I keep trying to track the marriage down, but dozens of Thomas Halls were getting married all over the country at about the right time, and the groom's occupation is rarely given. I wondered if the Nottinghamshire and Rutland court rolls might be linked to his wife's family, but that is impossible to check without her name.
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The information on Thomas HALL has allowed me to find more of his army record. Historical Records of the British Army tells his history from 1760 when he was appointed lieut-colonel and deputy adjutant-general, moving between 35th foot, 74th foot, 3rd foot (1796).
The National Archives WO 17/200 has an item on 79th foot where Major-General Thomas HALL is mentioned. The 79th were formed as the 69th but renumbered on their way to India in 1758 and went to the Phillipines before being disbanded in 1763 after the seven year war. The 79th was reformed later and Thomas was the colonel, Major-General. I'd need to see the record to see if Thomas was part of that as it represents the first 6 years of John HALL's life. Later records put Thomas in America and Jamaica (1779) during the early 1780s when John was a curate and got married.
I don't know whether wives and family followed the troops around the world, but imagine Thomas' children were brought up without much support from the father, perhaps they were raised at Skelton Castle! Hannah More said, about John, 'he was raised in a military academy'.
Like you I've looked for HALL-CARTER marriages, there around 1755, there are none. The reformed 79th were called the Royal Liverpool Volunteers. They could have been in Ireland at one point.
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It looks like I might be going back to square one or two. I found the will of General Thomas HALL of West Wratting in Cambridgeshire who owned a lot of property around West Colville. In the will he mentions wife Elizabeth, daughter Elizabeth, and son John. He mentions other property in Elwick, Durham, and Lancashire. His brother-in-law is John Carter POLLARD. Thomas married an unknown CARTER from Cambs. according to an online tree. The Elwick reference matches the will of John HALL-STEVENSON.
Most importantly, Thomas mentions Corbetta HALL, his niece, who must be the daughter of TH's brother George Lawson HALL and Corbetta MANNERS.
While daughter Elizabeth is shown marrying John MORSE (1776-1844) of Sprowston Hall and Bagthorpe in Norfolk, in 1800, son John HALL is not mentioned much in the will. A web search for HALL West Colville brings up John's history as the Squire, he died in 1860.
Elizabeth the daughter was born in 1775 I believe.
I'll have to do some more research for a John HALL, son of an army man as well as dig deeper into the CARTER side now I have the full name.
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You've got a lot more information now. I need to read through it again to digest it. However, one link between what you have found now and the earlier stuff is Elwick (near Hartlepool). Dorothy Lascelles, formerly Gibson, mother of the Revd Robert Lascelles of Gilling, refers in her will to her property at Bruntoft occupied by her brother. Well, Bruntoft is in Elwick parish, so could well be the same land. Though her sister, who married into the Hall family could well also have had land there, but I haven't found a will for her.
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Some dates: (British History Online - Weston Colville) Francis's son Thomas, created earl of Sussex in 1674, sold much land to pay his debts in 1708. Weston Colville was bought, probably in that year, by John Carter, a London linen-draper, who died in 1723, leaving it to his son John, who sometimes lived in the parish and died in 1759. His son and heir John after 1770 took the additional name of Pollard. He died in 1806, leaving no children. His sister Elizabeth had married Gen. Thomas Hall (d. 1809), whose son John (1767–1860) succeeded to Carter Pollard's estate. From him it passed successively to his sons Gen. John Hall (1797–1872) and Maj. Charles Webb Hall (1802–80), and, neither son leaving issue, to his daughter Charlotte's son, William Henry Bullock, who succeeded to it in 1880, taking the name of Hall.
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Regarding the GIBSON ladies: We have Dorothy who married William LASCELLES whose descendant became vicar of Gilling. I'm struggling to understand how many generations fit between William and the vicar, two or three.
Dorothy's sister Frances first married Joseph HALL, whose grandson John married Anne STEVENSON and he took the name HALL-STEVENSON. Frances secondly married John STEVENSON, a descendant of the MANNERS line, and his grand-daughter was the Anne STEVENSON who married John HALL. Anne's mother was not Frances, so the gene pool was not compromised!
The MANNERS line can be traced back to Lincolnshire and includes a marriage to a MILDMAY of Essex. It also includes a couple of links to the WHARTON name, Anne STEVENSON's father, Ambrose, married an Anne WHARTON.
The John HALL I'm interested in doesn't seem to be in any of the trees I've seen now that I know he is not the son of General Thomas HALL (1725-1809).
There were a number of HALL families in Rutland and Lincolnshire, including a Thomas HALL who married a MILDMAY at Kettleworth, Lincs, but they do not match the people in the Skelton HALL families so I'm still wondering what was in that document that the Rev Francis POYNTON had regarding the Rutland families.
Joseph HALL who married Elizabeth TROTTER is the right age to be my John HALL's grandfather, and his sons, including Thomas were great candidates for father. I'm still looking at George as a possibility, but if not him then I go back to the story that Joseph HALL was the only son of Frances who survived, so I'd then have to go back more generations to find a more distant cousin who was appointed as curate at Gilling.
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There are some other Halls in Durham, rich coal owners and Aldermen of the city and one of them, Anthony, mentions his nephew ?Robert? Wharton. (Sorry, I've forgotten and can't find my note.)However, I have not managed to make a link between the 2 lots of Halls, while the Whartons may well be a completely different family as they seem to have been drapers, though very wealthy and influential in Durham. I shall do more research. Mag
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Surtees "History of Durham" 1823, vol 3, says of the Durham Whartons "A very respectable branch of the family was established at Gillingwood in Yorkshire but the main stem of Dr Wharton's (ie the Durham Whartons of his day) was seated at Kirkbythore in Westmoreland, being in all probability a branch of the Wharton of Wharton, Westmoreland.
Thomas Wharton married Mary Hall, daughter of Alderman John Hall of Durham and by the time of her death in 1700 they had had George, Robert, Thomas (went to Virginia)jane and Mary, plus several children who died when small.
Mary's brothers were Anthony, Thomas and Jonathan aaaaHall.Anthony married but I haven't found any children as yet. Jonathan became a very wealthy prebendary of the Cathedral, but didn't marry Thomas died young but had a son Anthony who in turn had at least 2 children, Jonathan and Anthony. That family lied at Wombwell near Barnsley (oarish Darfield I think). No John Hall as yet except of course for Alderman John Hall who died in 1703. There was a John Hall mayor of Durham in the 1650s, presumably the same family. John Hall and Joseph Hall died within a year of each other. Could they have been brothers?
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A few quick thoughts - the HALLs of Durham may have been related to the HALLs of the Egglescliffe area (sometimes Egsclife). Britsh History Online for Egglescliffe has a tree for HALLs of Newsham. The tree covers 1500s to end of 1600s so doesn't quite provide the link I need. It does say that this branch was originally from Gretford/Greatford, Lincs. There's also the following "In 1684 the freeholders in Egglescliffe were, John Trotter, of Skelton, Esq. in Yorkshire; John Hall, Alderman of Durham" and also "Edward Trotter, Esq." who is presumably the one who married Mary LOWTHER, father of Catherine who married Joseph HALL.
There was (I think!) a William HALL, mayor, the BHO article mentions: William Hall, of London, goldsmith, 16 Feb. 1660 who gave a charitable donation in Egglescliffe.
A general history of the name HALL says that the original family were given land in Lincs. and spread from there, so I'm cautious in case the link back there is wishful thinking by later generations seeking connections, but Lincolnshire does keep coming up!
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Yes, I was looking at this tree and noticed the mention of Lincolns but it stops too soon. I've been collecting references to Alderman John Hall, who died 1703, obviously the sort of man you got to be trustee of your charity - like your John Hall, come to think of it. But very few records of key info like his age. Still looking - been out all day so not much time. I'll let you know if I find anything significant. Mag
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Have been looking at Charles Hall, one of Greencroft Halls. They were based near Lanchester, a few miles from Durham, but Charles moved to Durham as a draper. He marries isabel Conyers in 1610. She grew up in East Durham, but the Conyers family did have land by the Tees, so she could have brought land in Egglescliffe as her settlement, possibly. They had several children including a son John, born 1622 in Durham. Interestingly, the Stevensons were living nearby at Byerside in Medomsley parish. Sadly, wills of that period can't be viewed on the inheritance database - too fragile.
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Bingo. Have realised that under Byerside there is also a tree for Hall of Byerside. John Hall, clergyman originally from Lincolnshire (yes, indeed!) had a son Joseph died 1701 and a son John Hall, still living 1701, and then it feeds into the Hall-Stevenson tree you know.
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Unfortunately, the more I look the more it gets complicated. The CHAL(L)ONER families are implicated, along with the LASCELLES, TROTTER, LAWSON and GIBSON, intermarrying and associating with each other more than once. A CHALONER is on a church memorial along with a TROTTER, I think I saw a HALL, LASCELLES and CHALONER together in another article about the HALL's quarry.
They all cross each others path in Durham, Lancaster (HALL-STEVENSON property?), Egglescliffe, Elwick, Guisborough (Skelton Castle included). Some are also found in York. Properties were passed to brother Thomas HALL (General) by HALL-STEVENSON, so Stotfold and Elwick are mentioned in his will.
There are two trees mentioning Lincolnshire, the Byerside tree started my search there and inspired my search for MILDMAY connections assuming that HANNAH MORE was right about John HALL's ancestry. There are mistakes though: Lawson TROTTER is shown as 'died unmarried' but I have him marrying Dorothy LOWTHER and they produced a dau. Elizabeth. George Lawson HALL, a colonel in the army had, I presume, an illegitimate child the year after his wife died, as there's a birth for 'George Lawson HALL or KETTLEWELL' in 1761, and several more generations of people withe the same name.
The Durham archives provides many references to these people and British History Online helps. The 'History of Mount Grace' book has the LASCELLES tree.
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I've been looking at the LOWTHER connections relating to the 'Mrs PEARSE' who gave Theophilus LINDSEY the right to Chew Magna after a meeting in 1751. They were staying at Longleat with the Duchess of Somerset. Mrs PEARSE was Mary LOWTHER (d1756), a cousin of Sir Henry LOWTHER, 3rd Viscount Lonsdale. She married James PEARSE (d 1751) a lawyer.
The Duchess of Somerset was Frances THYNNE, and her great Aunt married John LOWTHER (1655-1700). John LOWTHER's sister Mary married Edward TROTTER. John LOWTHER was the grandson of John LOWTHER (1606-1675) and a cousin (same grandfather, different grandmothers) of Ralph LOWTHER. Ralph's daughter Dorothy married Lawson TROTTER, the grandson of Edward TROTTER. This John LOWTHER's father had a brother Robert LOWTHER (1595-1655) whose granddaughter was Mary LOWTHER who married James PEARSE.
I was trying to draw a diagram but can only do it properly in 3 dimensions because of the tangled relationships.
Suffice to say that Mary PEARSE might have known the TROTTERs and maybe the HALLs but Theophilus LINDSEY did not marry Hannah ELSWORTH until 4 years after Mrs PEARSE had died so her familiarity with the BLACKBURNE family is unknown.
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I've been reading about the importance of "interest" among the 18th century gentry - which was all about making lots of connections with influential people and then working them like mad. All this stuff you've been finding about the Lowthers etc seems an excellent illustration. The top guy to know was the Duke of Newcastle, who had lots of positions at his disposal and if I remember right (seems a long time ago!) was the patron at one point of Theophilus Lindsey. I wonder if the link with Theophilus gave John Hall a connection to the all-powerful Duke. It might explain why he was useful person to know.
No luck in finding John Hall. I was hopeful - a John and Alice Hall had sons John and William -but John died at school. William was still alive in 1818, but don't know what he was doing.
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I have been practising my palaeography on the NE Inheritance database, trying to read the will of the Joseph Hall who died 1701 in Durham. It is very difficult, especially for aging eyes! However, I have picked out some family names. He seems to speak about his brother John, his sister Catherine (surname is Old...something or other) and then (5 lines from the bottom if you don't count the final half line) "my brother Leonard Hall and his chancery suit" - I think. Now looking at the national Archive chancery records, in 1700 Leonard Hall and Henry Hall were pursuing a case against John Todd over lands at Selby in Yorkshire. Leaving aside all the tempting trails seeking to lead me away, this does mean that Joseph had at least 2 brothers, John and Leonard, from whom your John might be descended. A John and Ann Hall had 3 children baptized at Danby Wiske,N Yorks (near Richmond) - Leonard and John in 1667. katherine in 1671. A John Hall had a son Joseph baptized at St Margaret's Durham in 1664, which wouldn't rule out it being the same John.Anyawy, I leave this information for your reflection. Mag
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The will is challenging. After John HALL getting a moiety (half share) he mentions Nathaniel HALL I think getting the other half before Catherine. I cannot make out what comes after her name. Brother GIBSON (his wife's brother) is mentioned.
I'm stuck at this time. The HALLs of Newsham and the HALLs of Byerside seem to be related, but there's no tree filling the gap in years around 1700 to 1750. These HALLs seem to link back to Gretford in Lincolnshire, possibly the Thomas HALL of Kettlethorpe and Amy MILDMAY marriage. None of it helps with my quest though.
I was reading a book about how 'uneducated' people got into the church, how grammar schools were able to educate children who the became priests. The main thing I learned from that is that there are many more documents still held by the church that probably contain the information I need, letters a reports on how or why a person was accepted.
I'm now researching life around Chew Magna and possible family links from my tree.