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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: callbrian on Thursday 04 June 20 10:47 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am currently researching for a friend and have come up against a brick wall. Any help would be appreciated.
My friend tells me his “father“ was John Banks in the merchant service probably c1940 onward.
The only other info on him is that he married Myrtle Jean Piper 18 Oct 1947 and were divorced in 1951.
Is there a possible means of finding if there are any records available for public access, other than the National Archives.
Best regards
Brian
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Hi Brian
Do you have a date and place of birth? There is no doubt his main service record will be held at Kew. Any other records will depend on when he joined the service. There may also be passenger or crew records.
Regards
Hugh
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Hi Hugh,
Sorry I’ve nothing else to go on. My friend has only recently discovered that this could be his father and knows nothing more about him. He only found his name when checking his mother’s marriage details. I’ll check with him to see if he sent for the marriage certificate for any further details.
If I find out anything, I will repost in replies.
Thanks again!
Brian
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From early 1941 there are 46 results for merchant seaman named J Banks. Some can be dismissed by age. That is why Hugh is asking for date and place of birth to narrow down the search.
Take a look here to see if it rings any bells.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=banks%20j&_cr=bt372&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
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Hi Seaweed,
Thanks for this. I am waiting for my friend to answer my request for any further details.
Do you happen to know whether a next of kin would be included in the records?
Regards
Brian
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As far as I am aware all personal MN records for the period are in the National Archive.To answer your last question. Depends on who was writing the entry in the crew agreement and what kind of information was given by the seaman. see attached as an example.
However you would need to know the name of the ship and/or her official number.
If he joined the MN early in the war he would probably have records in the series BT382 at the National Archive.
See https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10988299
This would record the vessel's he served on, together with dates and places of engagement and discharge.
These records are stored alphabetically, in blocks of 60 names. At one time you could search the whole block of records until you found the correct person but due to security concerns. You now have to submit details of one person. That's why date and place of birth is so important. Ideally also his Dis A number which is unique to him. This is usually a six digit number prefixed with the letter R.
Unless you can furnish more details I am afraid the chances of finding the correct person are remote.
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Hi Seaweed,
Thanks again. Still awaiting a reply from my friend. I’m pretty sure he will have to send for the marriage certificate with the hope of getting more info.
Thanks for your efforts, again I will reply when he comes back to me.
Regards
Brian
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Hope it's okay to piggy-back on to this one. I've just looked at the Kew records linked earlier and found some I'd be very interested in looking at. But they've not been digitised. I can request a copy, apparently (but that service is suspended at the moment). Does anyone know how much that would be, approximately?
Thanks
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The first link I gave was to the series BT372. "Seamans Pouch's. I take it that the person you are interested in was British.
These records relate to individual seamen filed together in a pouch. These documents may include application forms, certificates, identity cards,(most with a photograph of the seaman) cessation documents and notifications of death.
As these documents relate to an individual and are catalogued as such, they should be easy to find and copy, therefore, theoretically, they should be relatively cheap. I have long given up on how TNA fix a charge for copying. You would need to ask for a quote.
The second link i gave was to the series BT382. Because these records are in blocks of 60 names, TNA would consider it research and charge accordingly. Again it appears that no fixed fee is applicable. I have heard of people being quoted £80 plus!
In all honesty. you would be advised to visit Kew yourself. you can the view both sets of documents for free and whilst there extend your research to maybe look at the logbooks of the vessels he sailed on.
If it's problematic for you to visit Kew. Let me know and I will attempt to take a look for you next time I visit. Whenever that may be.
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Thank you!
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The first link I gave was to the series BT372. "Seamans Pouch's. I take it that the person you are interested in was British.
These records relate to individual seamen filed together in a pouch. These documents may include application forms, certificates, identity cards,(most with a photograph of the seaman) cessation documents and notifications of death.
As these documents relate to an individual and are catalogued as such, they should be easy to find and copy, therefore, theoretically, they should be relatively cheap. I have long given up on how TNA fix a charge for copying. You would need to ask for a quote.
Thank you! Yes, it was the first link so, once they're up and running again, I'll ask for copies (I'm not near London but a trip wouldn't be out of the question). I wish I'd known about these when they were still open - am quite excited about what might be in there.
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Seamen's pouch's can be a hit or miss affair. Some contain chapter and verse, some next to nothing. There's only one way to find out.
Be aware that some 95,000 pouch's were destroyed sometime before 1988.
Good luck with your search.
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Yeah, I read about some being destroyed :'(. If it's showing on the site, would that means it's likely that there's something there? I'll prepare to be disappointed.
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Callbrian I too apologise for jumping on your thread but hope that seaweed can help
I've been trying to collaborate the story that Peter Burns b 1878 in Belfast was torpedoed in 1918. I have no information that he was in MN and searches for his name has drawn a blank including a death record. I've just found a Burns P in your first link but can't make head nor tail of what the infomation means, whether it's digitised or how I would go about finding out if it is him. Appreciate any help. VB
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Yeah, I read about some being destroyed :'(. If it's showing on the site, would that means it's likely that there's something there? I'll prepare to be disappointed.
If his name comes up in BT372 then there is defiantly a seaman pouch for him. The ones that where destroyed are not catalogued.
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Callbrian I too apologise for jumping on your thread but hope that seaweed can help
I've been trying to collaborate the story that Peter Burns b 1878 in Belfast was torpedoed in 1918. I have no information that he was in MN and searches for his name has drawn a blank including a death record. I've just found a Burns P in your first link but can't make head nor tail of what the infomation means, whether it's digitised or how I would go about finding out if it is him. Appreciate any help. VB
The big problem you have is that the Central personal MN records for the period of the First World War, have been destroyed.
I cannot find any record of his death. He is not commemorated on the CWGC site. Your only chance of finding him is to look at Find my Past to see if he has MN records post 1918. You may then be able to back track via Crew Agreements to find out what vessel was torpedoed
A quick search of the Irish Mariners site comes up with nothing.
I doubt very much he is included in the first link I posted as it was not started until 1941. if you are referring to this record, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8270536 then its not him. The date 29/03/1917 is the seamans DOB.
Silly question! Do you know the exact or thereabouts, date the ship was torpedoed or the name of the ship?
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The big problem you have is that the Central personal MN records for the period of the First World War, have been destroyed.
I cannot find any record of his death. He is not commemorated on the CWGC site. Your only chance of finding him is to look at Find my Past to see if he has MN records post 1918. You may then be able to back track via Crew Agreements to find out what vessel was torpedoed
A quick search of the Irish Mariners site comes up with nothing.
I doubt very much he is included in the first link I posted as it was not started until 1941. if you are referring to this record, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8270536 then its not him. The date 29/03/1917 is the seamans DOB.
Silly question! Do you know the exact or thereabouts, date the ship was torpedoed or the name of the ship?
Well .. that explains mountains. No wonder I can't find anything!
I cannot find a death record anywhere, I've checked the CWGC too thinking he may have been a regular soldier, I've trawled FindMyPast and Irish Mariners site ... admit I'm not great on military/mariner research but, as I've said I can't find a civilian death record ... deaths at sea come up with nothing either.
The silly question is not so silly as actually, the story is off he set off in the morning & he never returned but the family are adamant that he was torpedoed. Civilian or otherwise, I have no idea but either way I have no dates, thereabouts or name of ship. exact or otherwise. I have spent many years trying to find him as I promised my aunt I'd find her Uncle. Sadly, before I could keep that promise in March, she was suddenly taken by Covid-19, now I feel all the more determined that I must find out what happened to him. It somehow doesn't seem right that someone can just vanish in those circumstances and now I very much hope to fulfill the promise I made albeit too late for her.
I appreciate any and all the help you may be able to give. You experts do a great job & thanks VB
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Yeah, I read about some being destroyed :'(. If it's showing on the site, would that means it's likely that there's something there? I'll prepare to be disappointed.
If his name comes up in BT372 then there is defiantly a seaman pouch for him. The ones that where destroyed are not catalogued.
Excellent. Fingers crosses. Thank you.
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VB,
I take it that you have searched "British Oversea's Deaths" I searched the British Newspaper Archive . Again nothing. Could he have moved from Belfast? Have you looked at passengers or ships crew entering the United States in 1918?
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I have looked at the Overseas Deaths as well as US passenger manifests and other Merchant and Royal Navy records without success.
Regards
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh.
I cannot think where else to look. Any thought's?
regards
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VB,
I take it that you have searched "British Oversea's Deaths" I searched the British Newspaper Archive . Again nothing. Could he have moved from Belfast? Have you looked at passengers or ships crew entering the United States in 1918?
I'm nearly certain that I've checked the overseas deaths, I hadn't checked the newspaper archives, so thank you, I have also searched passengers arriving in USA in 1918, nothing, any double checking is appreciated, I may have missed something. I don't believe he left Belfast as the story is that he left home "that" morning and didn't return ... whenever that was supposed to be?? It's very odd that there is no mention of him anywhere and particularly no death registration that I have found.
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I have looked at the Overseas Deaths as well as US passenger manifests and other Merchant and Royal Navy records without success.
Regards
Hugh
Hugh, were you referring to my Peter Burns? If so, thank you for your interest. I find it very odd that the family were aware that he was "torpedoed" yet there is nothing to verify his disappearance, even if he were a passenger on a ship that was sank.
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Searched the online 1915 crew agreements. 11 hits for Peter Burns. None comes up with the correct date and place of birth.
https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/crew-member?crew_member_search%5BlastName%5D=burns&crew_member_search%5BfirstName%5D=peter&page=1
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Thank you for that search. Now I feel really stupid as I should have said there's Burns, Burn, Byrnes, Byrne, Byrn and any other variations to think of,!!
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I have only checked the name you posted but will check the other variations.
SW - I think we are searching in the right places. I had already checked the 1915 crew listings too and drew a blank. We will see where the other variations get us. Could I ask though is Peter Burns the correct full family name?
Regards
Hugh
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You guys are awesome, thank you. I have just double checked the Ireland BMD's as things do get updated from time to time and still can't find anything. He doesn't stand out anywhere on the 1901 or 1911 census either but I'm now just thinking about your previous question. He could possibly have been working the boats between Belfast, Dublin & Scotland, many did for the work. It may also be relevant to say that his father also Peter or Patrick Burns/Byrnes, was a soldier born about 1839, so he could have followed in his footsteps.... I know, not your field, but it may add to the theory that he did do something for the war effort
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I have only checked the name you posted but will check the other variations.
SW - I think we are searching in the right places. I had already checked the 1915 crew listings too and drew a blank. We will see where the other variations get us. Could I ask though is Peter Burns the correct full family name?
Regards
Hugh
Sorry Hugh, missed the question about the family name. It is a valid question. Yes as far as I can say however, the birth/baptism records for him & his siblings give his fathers name as Peter/Patrick BURNS & BYRNES which as you can imagine isn't a great help. The first opportunity to find any record of Peter after his birth in 1878 is the 1901 census & again, I cannot see anything that points to him. His baptism/Birth records do give his ID as Peter BURNS
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A long shot but it needs checking out.
I found a Peter Byrne onboard one of the City of Dublin Steam Packet vessel's in 1915. The YoB would be correct but the place of birth is given as County Dublin.
In the time scale CDSP ships comprised four vessels ULSTER, MUNSTER, LEINSTER and CONNAUGHT
Three were engaged in Dublin - Holyhead ferry trade.
LEINSTER official number 104974 was torpedoed by the German submarine UB-123 on 10/October/1918. It may be worth checking her crew agreements covering that date.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2480749
Hugh, as an aside, his conduct was recorded as D D not DR DR any idea what that means? Dismissed or what.
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Most comprehensive list I can find online, two BURNS both military casualites and one BYRNE M military survivor. https://rmsleinster.com/people/_people.htm
Can't see a Peter Byrne
.
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Hugh, as an aside, his conduct was recorded as D D not DR DR any idea what that means? Dismissed or what.
Hi SW - I suspect it means either a lazy 'DR' i.e. just 'Declined' or it means Deserted.
Struggling big time on this search - I have to say as nothing fits.
Regards
Hugh
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A long shot but it needs checking out.
I found a Peter Byrne onboard one of the City of Dublin Steam Packet vessel's in 1915. The YoB would be correct but the place of birth is given as County Dublin.
In the time scale CDSP ships comprised four vessels ULSTER, MUNSTER, LEINSTER and CONNAUGHT
Three were engaged in Dublin - Holyhead ferry trade.
LEINSTER official number 104974 was torpedoed by the German submarine UB-123 on 10/October/1918. It may be worth checking her crew agreements covering that date.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2480749
Hugh, as an aside, his conduct was recorded as D D not DR DR any idea what that means? Dismissed or what.
Hi Seawea, which CDSP ship did you find Peter Byrne in 1915?
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He is listed in the index as being onboard ULSTER, However the original crew agreement gives three ships
ULSTER, MUNSTER, LEINSTER . Strange but due to the nature of the voyages, understandable.
https://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/211835#&gid=1&pid=1
He is listed on page 5. number 218.
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The Peter BYRNE on the Leinster isn't my man. His parents are recorded on his records and sadly are not a match. I think I'm back to being stuck at that brick wall. Thanks everyone who has tried to help find him.
VB
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Just reviving this thread in the hope of some advice, particularly from @seaweed.
I did order copies of the seaman's pouch I was after but was a little disappointed in the records I got back from TNA. I'd hoped to get a list of ships he'd worked on but there was only one ship noted on his DIS.A card when he was discharged in 1952.
If I wanted to find which ships he's sailed on, would that mean I need to visit Kew itself?
Thanks
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Just reviving this thread in the hope of some advice, particularly from @seaweed.
I did order copies of the seaman's pouch I was after but was a little disappointed in the records I got back from TNA. I'd hoped to get a list of ships he'd worked on but there was only one ship noted on his DIS.A card when he was discharged in 1952.
If I wanted to find which ships he's sailed on, would that mean I need to visit Kew itself?
Thanks
Hi,
Seamans Pouch's can be hit and miss. Some contain chapter and verse including a MN ID card complete with mugshot photograph. Others very little. They never contain lists of ships served on except in certain situations where a person had previous service prior to 1941. May I ask the cost to copy the "Pouch"
What you need is his Form CRS10. This will tell you the ships he sailed on, (from early 1941) Together with dates and places of engagement and discharge.
These records are stored alphabetically, in blocks of sixty names. At one time you would just order the entire book and look up the person you are interested in. (Imagine searching for a "Smith" etc) Since Form CRS10 may contain a National Insurance number. It was deemed by TNA that this could be used for fraudulent activities. So you now have to fill in another form and hope that TNA staff hit on the correct person when they do a search. They delete the NI number.
The series which records Forms CRS 10, BT382. is divided into 8 sub sections
For example. My guess is your subject would be of European origin. There are two sets of records for this category. If he/she is not in one he/she may be in the other. Another sub series concerns seamen who were POW and yet another records MN seamen who served on RN ships and yet another concerns Deaths at Sea for pension purposes.
As you can see it can be complicated. That is why it's best to visit Kew yourself. You can also look at other information such as ships Logbooks and Crew Agreements to give you a more rounded picture.
I understand that for Physical reasons, mobility, distance to travel etc. some rootschatters may find it difficult to attend in person. You have to consider the cost of travel versus cost of research by TNA or a "Professional" researcher. I have given up on the TNA costs and a professional researcher will cost around £50 plus per hour.
In pre Covid days I would attend TNA regularly and would have done a look up for you, but now?
If you can give us your mans full name, date and place of birth. Then Hugh or myself will give you a reference/s where his CRS10 may be stored. Contact by Personal Message if sensitive.
cheers SW
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Hi seaweed
Many thanks for that. I'm a lot clearer about what I need to do next. I'll give some thought about whether I can get to Kew but may well be in touch if I can't - many thanks for the offer.