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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: strelitzia on Wednesday 03 June 20 15:22 BST (UK)
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I am having great difficulty in searching for my Great Grandfather's birth record. Please could someone else take a look, incase I am missing something?
The most recent available Census: John Lloyd, born 1864 Gillsfield Montgomeryshire. Living in Brampton Bryan, Radnorshire/ Herefordshire
1901 Census: John Lloyd, born 1864, NK, Shropshire
1891 Census: John Lloyd, born 1864, NK, Radnorshire
I have a copy of his marriage certificate from a relative who did work on the tree. He married Elizabeth Davies in Leintwardine, Herefordshire on 6th May, 1889. Both resident of Leintwardine. He was aged 25 and she 24. He lists his father as Thomas Lloyd, labourer. (Elizabeth's father was also a Thomas).
Can anyone take a look for him on the 1881 census? or even better find his parents?
The only John Lloyd born 1864 (+/-1) in Guilsfield , Montgomeryshire, has a father John.
There is a John Lloyd c1859 Leintwardine with father Thomas which a relative thinks might be him, but my father was certain that his grandfather was from Wales. Family lore is that they were gypsies (!)
But this does not match up to his claimed birth date of 1864 that is consistent. Nor would it match up for the census records changing from Shropshire unkown, to Radnorshire unkown, to suddenly specific Gillsfield Montgomeryshire?
John lloyd died in 1937 I think, as his wife, Elizabeth was a widow living with one of their sons by 1939.
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Hello,
Trying to track down my great grandfather's birth. I went through all possible baptisms in Montgomeryshire, which is a possible county he was born in...
There is an an interesting contender.
John Thomas Lloyd, baptised 1865 in Llanwnog, mother, Elizabeth Lloyd. (No father listed-presumed illegit).
1871 census for Llanwnog,
Elizabeth Lloyd, unmarried, charwoman, b Newtown, head
John T Lloyd, 1865, b Llanwnog, son
Richard E Lloyd, 1870, b Llanwnog, son
Joseph R Lloyd, 1871, b Llanwnog, son
Elizabeth Bunford (Burford?), 1791, Carno Mother
This is interesting, as it would suggest that Elizabeth Lloyd took on the surname of the father or alleged father of her children without marrying. I can't seem to see a baptism in Llanwnog for Richard or Joseph, nor did a search bring up anything else about them. They disappear off the map.
Any ideas? Could Elizabeth have married? Surely she must have been ostracised for having three children illegitimately, presumably by the same father if they are all Lloyds?
This is just a rough sketch, and idea. My Grt Grandfather turns up to marry Leintwardine Herefordshire in 1889, claiming his father is Thomas Lloyd labourer. Is it possible that the family moved on, and is his middle name Thomas, an attempt of revealing that the father was Thomas Lloyd too?
Actually just had another think.
The mother's surname being different doesn't mean that Elizabeth Lloyd was using a surname that was not ' legally ' hers. Her mother may have more simply married again after Elizabeth Lloyd was born.
Also, the 'mother' is aged 80. Elizabeth Lloyd is 28. Her mum being 52 when she was born is rather pushing it..
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I have found the following, some of which might be of help
LLOYD, RICHARD - no mother's birth name
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 202
LLOYD, JOSEPH ROBERT - no mother's birth name -
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 202
1861 - Penrallt, Surnant, Newtown
Elizabeth Bumford Head Widow 1791 Pauper b Carno
Jane Davies Wife Married 1834 Domestic Servant b Carno
Thomas Davies Grandson 1856 - b Carno
David Davies Grandson 1859 - b Llanwnog
DAVIES, DAVID mother - BUMFORD
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in NEWTOWN Volume 11B Page 206
Jane Bumford
Baptism: 13 Oct 1833
Place: Llanidloes
Denomination: Wesleyan Methodist
Parents: Bowen and Elizabeth of Carno
Bowen Bumford, widowed, of Llanwnnog
Marriage: 3 Jun 1831 at Carno
Spouse: Elizabeth Roberts of Carno
1841 -
Bowen Bumford 1786 b Montgomeryshire
Elizabeth Bumford 1806 b Montgomeryshire
Jane Bumford 1834 b Montgomeryshire
Edward Bumford 1821 b Montgomeryshire
Elizabeth Lowe 1839 b Montgomeryshire
Bowen Bumford of Carno, Buried on 31 May 1860 at Llanwnnog, age 77
David
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Elizabeth Lowe from the 1841 census.
The birth was registered Newtown 1839 mothers maiden name Bumford
ADDED
possible parents
John Lowe married Mary Bumford 1838 registered Newtown listed on the same page.
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Lloyd, John Thomas registered Newtown March quarter 1865 no mothers maiden name Vol 11B page 222
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1851 census Llysyn
Bowen Mumford 63 ag lab pauper written as Mumford s/b Bumford
Elizabeth Mumford 54 born Carno
Elizabeth Lloyd 9 grand daughter born Newtown
So in 1871 when she says Elizabeth Bumford is her mother she is actually her grandmother who raised her.
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A good find in 1851, which I missed. Some additional information:-
John Lowe, a weaver, married Mary Bumford, also a weaver, on 16th December 1838 in Newtown.
Both fo Brickfield, Newtown. Parents: Richard Lowe, a weaver, and Bowen Bumford, a labourer.
Witnesses -Thomas Lowe and Sam Horton.
Mary Bumfford, daughter of Bowen and Elizabeth, baptised on 31 July 1814 in Llanwnnog. Abode Tan'r allt.
Bowen Bumford married Elizabeth Powel in Llanwnnog on 31st August 1811.
Elizabeth Bumford of Newtown was buried in Llanwnnog on 3rd March 1832. Age 67 seems a bit high.
There are several trees on Ancestry which have the birth of Bowen Bumford in 1790, son of Richard Bumford and Mary Low. Some trace the family back to Edward Bumford 1580-1635 and Margaret Rees Powel 1580-1634.
If the right person:-
Bowen Bomford
Baptism: 9 Apr 1789 in Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire, son of Richard and Mary
Elizabeth might be:-
LLOYD, ELIZABETH mmn LLOYD
GRO Reference: 1842 M Quarter in NEWTOWN AND LLANIDLOES Volume 27 Page 137
David
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The Elizabeth Bumford buried 1832 age 67 cannot be the wife of Bowen as he married Elizabeth Roberts as a widower in 1831 per your notes.
Was Elizabeth Roberts a spinster when she married Bowen?
The 1851 census says that Elizabeth Lloyd is a granddaughter, so a Bumford girl must have married a Lloyd in order for her last name to be Lloyd it does not mean Elizabeth is illegitimate.
If Elizabeth Roberts was also a widow when she married then a Roberts girl marrying a Lloyd would also make Elizabeth 1842 a grand daughter.
On Freebmd there is an Elizabeth Bumford and a David Lloyd listed on the same page in 1841 there are several other names so I don't know if they married each other.
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We are straying from the point, on all census John Lloyd states that is his name, he never says it is John Thomas Lloyd.So I think we are on a wild goose chase.
Look at the names of the children 1911 the first boy is Thomas named for either father.
CORRECTED
first girl is Margaret Elizabeth 1889, second girl is Mary Edith 1891, then Alice Gertrude 1893 and Florence May 1896
so is Margaret her mothers name and Mary his mothers name?
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Marriage record, 1889....what church please.......what names for witnesses......do all named have signatures?....does anyone use "sign"?
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Gosh this moved on very quickly since I logged on yesterday. Thanks so much for looking into that option, very thorough and good work. This person certainly comes from a confusing family!
So we think that because he is listed as John Thomas Lloyd , he cannot be my man who goes by John Lloyd? To be fair even on my John Lloyd's probate , it is just John Lloyd.
Her married Elizabeth Davies, whose parents were Rebecca and Thomas. So sadly the daughters don't seem to be named after their maternal grandmother.
Marriage took place in Leintwardine church. Both signed their name. Names of witnesses, William Davies (her brother or uncle) and Elizabeth Meredith. I went down the witnesses route. There is an Elizabeth Meredith in Leintwardine on the 1881 census. Her husband died 1889 and in 1891 she is with her son and daughter in law, but nearby. I checked if Elizabeth Meredith was a sister, but couldn't find an Elizabeth Lloyd marrying a Meredith in the right period or area.
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Hi Strelitzia
I have just seen the message thread from 2020, about your gg grandfather John Lloyd (1864). John is also the great grandfather of my husband. I am having a similar problem in ascertaining his parentage. I am wondering if you have got any more answers than in 2020? Would love to hear from you.