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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: aussie researcher on Friday 29 May 20 23:45 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking to find if there is a grave and/or headstone for Mary & Charles Hennings.
Charles died in 1846 & Mary in 1892.
Both buried according to the burial register in West Norwood Cemetery.
I have the grave reference as 62/1286
I have a map of approximately where the gravesite should be if required.
If someone was able to take a photo I would be very appreciative.
I live in Australia.
I have sent an email to archives@lambeth.gov.uk but with no reply.
They are not listed on the burial listing for West Norwood but I know that's where they went.
I would be most appreciative if someone can help or put me in contact with someone who might be able to.
Thanks
Aussie Researcher
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Record Offices are closed at the moment due to the Covid19 virus. When they reopen there will be quite a backlog to get through
Mary was 102yrs old when she died and appears to have been a wealthy woman as she left over £21,000 when she died
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Thanks, CaroleW,
I guessed that would be the case.
I feel for all the staff and the amount of work they will come back too.
102 was a great age for her and she'd been widowed for 46 years.
With her husbands wealth as well, I would hope they would have had a headstone. They had no children.
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Does your map show whereabouts the grave is located in Square 62? As she was wealthy, I'd expect a posh monument near the path, but this is a heavily overgrown part of the cemetery, and anywhere off the path may be hard to reach until the vegetation dies down in the winter.
I doubt if Lambeth Archives have much in the way of photos, but if no one here offers, I can draw your request to the attention of another Find a Grave volunteer who lives near the cemetery. Normally, I'd go myself, but I'd rather avoid using public transport at the present.
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Thanks, Chris,
I do have a map with approximately where it is located, it is near a pathway. I could attach to post if I knew how to do that.
I notice you have Anerley on your list.
Mary lived at 78 Thicket Road Anerley prior to her passing.
If someone can tell me how to add an attachment I'll add the maps I have.
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As this is a Lookup forum, attaching photos isn't permitted to stop people showing copyright material, not relevant here, so we'll have to describe it. As the main map of the cemetery is orientated, with East at the top, the path runs from top left to right middle. In the corner above the path and extending to other squares, is a squashed T-shaped area marked "(4) N Rose Garden (not accessible)". Is it on that side of the path or below it? Left, right, or middle should be close enough to find it. On Find a Grave, I've just found a photo of the magnificent Otto Berens tomb in square 63, which seems to be kept very clear of the more normal rampant vegetation, so perhaps a good photo is possible. I don't remember seeing Berens' tomb myself, so maybe this was an area for the very rich that I've never visited -- a pity, or I might have already had a picture.
I'll look for the Thicket Road house later. The road was renumbered several times, but I have a spreadsheet that enables me to find present locations.
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I have just found the Grave of Otto Berens you mention.
The "self-guided walk around West Norwood Cemetery" made it easy to find.
From the map in the guide and the one I have. The Hennings grave/tomb is on the lower or west side from the Berens I believe it could be on the other side of the path.
If Berens is on the east side of the path then Hennings on the west side if that makes sense.
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I doubt if Lambeth Archives have much in the way of photos, but if no one here offers, I can draw your request to the attention of another Find a Grave volunteer who lives near the cemetery. Normally, I'd go myself, but I'd rather avoid using public transport at the present.
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I'll look for the Thicket Road, house later. The road was renumbered several times, but I have a spreadsheet that enables me to find present locations.
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Hi Chris,
I did get a reply from Lambeth Archives with just a copy of the gravestone card.
I'm wondering if you are able to call upon your Find a Grave volunteer to assist me further.
Also, any chance when you have a moment to look at the 78 Thicket Road House details. I'd be most interested to know more. Mary lived their right up until her death she had several servants & a companion for at least 20 yrs before her death.
Thank you for all your help it is much appreciated.
Aussie Researcher
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Just as an aside in connection with the house at 78 Thicket Road, Anerley. There is mention of the address for the Tanner family. Their 3 sons attended Dulwich College. Details here for one of the sons, Thomas Lanfear Tanner https://dulwichcollege1914-18.co.uk/fallen/tanner-tl/
Chris, do you think the reference to 78 Thicket Road is correct? You mention there has been renumbering a few times on the road
The family's 1911 census entry here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW8P-WJC
Added: The family lost all three sons in the WW1:
William Arthur Tanner https://dulwichcollege1914-18.co.uk/fallen/tanner-wa/
Charles Patrick Tanner https://dulwichcollege1914-18.co.uk/fallen/tanner-cp/
Beyond tragic for sure to have lost all three :-\
Monica
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If it helps with locating the property, it may have been called Sunninghill House. There is a reference to a Mrs Hennings at that house in Thicket Road in Penge on pgs 26 and 38 (1871-2).
hamlet of penge
www.bromley.gov.uk › downloads › 1871_-_72_hamlet_of_penge
Just copy whole line to google and it will bring up the right link for the pdf.
Monica
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Monica,
Thank you so much for your further information.
I'll do a search and look at your links.
It is so sad the Tanner family, lost 3 sons.
It could well be the same address, Mary died in 1892 so it would have been sold after that.
Thanks again
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Unfortunately my file for the Thicket Road numbers spreadsheet I created several years ago has got corrupted, so I've had to redo at least the bit around No 78. It was, indeed, called Sunninghill and originally No 9, which changed to 78 between directories of 1876 and 1880. I haven't found another renumbering, but I've only got to 1967 so far. Perhaps it was the other side I thought changed more than once.
Stanford's 1862 map show no houses at all in what was then called Thick Wood Road. The earliest following directory I have is 1867, which shows Mrs Hennings as the resident, so I guess she bought it as a new build. I wouldn't be surprised to find an advert in The Times for whatever the term then was for a "des res" with view over the Crystal Palace grounds. Houses were sometimes named by the builder, but as some of the others only had numbers, I suspect Mary chose Sunninghill which might have had some personal significance.
I'll get a photo of the modern 78 when I'm sure that's still the right number. I'm told that West Norwood Cemetery has now been re-opened (despite the forbidding wording still on the Council website) and the person I mentioned is going to look for the grave.
More to come.
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Chris,
Thank you so much, I didn't mean to cause you more work with redoing your spreadsheet.
Her husband Charles died in 1846 and the house they lived in then was sold/demolished.
I do wonder where she went between that time and 1867.
I'd love to find a photo of Sunninghill House.
I can't find her in the 1851 or 1861 census, nor them before Charles died.
Might be a spelling error that wouldn't surprise me. I might need to dig deeper.
Thank you for your help it is appreciated.
I look forward to what is to come :)
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For your records, this is likely Charles and Mary in 1841 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKZ-FMF
Showing on Ancestry as Charles Henning, of Independent means. They show as living at Crosby Row, Bermondsey. Some old photos here http://bermondseyboy.net/viewtopic.php?t=278 and http://gander-name.info/my-gander-line/gaggle/page37.html
No specific numbers given on the census page for Crosby Row.
The closest I can see for 1861 is this entry at Queent Street Croydon www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MP-9QTK Not perfect. Age is out and she is down as single...but errors can creep in as we know. Ancestry have her entry mistranscribed as Mary Herung. (Added: I think I can see this Mary, as Mary Ann, in 1851. Still showing as unmarried and born in Croydon so I think not the correct entry).
Can't really see anything for her in 1851 so far.
Monica
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Monica,
Thank you for searching.
I don't think the 1841 census is them, Mary would be 51 ok 45 is close. but Charles would have been 73, 50 is a long way short of that.
They will be in the census somewhere just hiding for now.
Thanks again for your time it is appreciated.
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For your records, this is likely Charles and Mary in 1841
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKZ-FMF
I think this family is more likely:
1841 Census - Dulwich Common, Camberwell
Charles F Henning, age 70, Ind
May Henning, age 50
Martha Sims, age 35, Female Servant
+2 other servants
Ref HO107; Piece 1051; Book 3; Folio 6; Page 5
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKN-ZR7
Martha Sims looks to be the same person with Mary in 1871.
There are quite a lot of newspaper references to the Hennings and Druce families but few in the 1860s-1880s.
Mary's father names her in his will but doesn't give their (Charles and Mary's) address, at least not that I can see.
1845 - Will of Charles Druce of Dulwich , Surrey
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D87094
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Yes, this is them, thank you for your search cuffie8.
I'll do some searches in the newspapers and see what I can dig up.
It's a very interesting family.
thanks again
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This question is somewhat left field.
Who or where would I go to possibly find out about the building of a house between 1862 - 1867?
I'm just wondering if Mary Hennings had 'Sunninghill House' built for herself.
In Australia, in Victoria, we have land data records going back to the early settlements.
I know where to find that information is there something like this in UK?
Thanks for your guidance.
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The UK Land Registry holds the documents but on a quick trial, I couldn't see how to get any info without paying. I don't think it was built specifically for her, as if you drive down that end of the road on Google Maps, you'll see they're all the same design. This is why I suggested there might be a builder's advert in The Times.
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I don't mind paying if I have to, as long as it gives me the historical data back to the beginning.
I'll have a look at UK Land Registry.
Oh, now I'm confused about so many different Land Registry places advertised on Google.
What is the right one to use?
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Yes, you do have to watch what Google gives you for anything related to government services, as the ones at the top are often private companies which charge a premium over what the government site does, even when the latter is free! I expect there are Australian firms doing the same. I think the site you want is www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry It has a lot of links to follow (which is how the premium sites justify their existence). You need to find out whether they have the very original title deeds. Any close to No 78 will do if all you want is the date and builder, though obviously you'd really like to see Mary's name and signature. Have a root around, but as I've never done this, wait for someone who has to reply before spending any money. It may be better to start a separate topic on a more general Rootschat forum -- the Common Room if nothing more obvious.
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Thanks, Chris
I will do, plus I'll start a new topic, I'm way off the original track now.
Thanks for your help and all the other people as well.
I look forward to a photo of the grave when that is possible, there is no rush.
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With the recommendation by Chris:
The Times - Thursday, June 15 1865
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I'm told that it is indeed an area of posh graves but there are a lot of them, some covered with debris from overhanging trees obscuring the inscriptions. I'll send you (aussie researcher) a PM giving my e-mail address for a copy of the map in the hope it'll narrow the search area.
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Just as an aside in connection with the house at 78 Thicket Road, Anerley. There is mention of the address for the Tanner family. Their 3 sons attended Dulwich College. Details here for one of the sons, Thomas Lanfear Tanner https://dulwichcollege1914-18.co.uk/fallen/tanner-tl/
Chris, do you think the reference to 78 Thicket Road is correct? You mention there has been renumbering a few times on the road
78 is correct. That side of the road, at least, was only renumbered the once. The next directory I have after 1892 is 1896, showing William Burbridge Tanner, solicitor & commissioner for oaths. I think he's the one whose death was registered in Croydon in December qtr 1929 as directories 1931-35 say Mrs Tanner. All 3 sons are named on the Penge War Memorial.
At the risk of starting another "aside", an interesting find in the 1939 directory is a Shalom Home for Jewish Children next door at No 76, with 7 redacted entries in the 1939 Register, presumably the children. I havem't investigated further, but Kindertransport springs to mind.
Local directories did not resume after WW2 and the electoral rolls thereafter show these large houses in multiple occupation.
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Hi aussie researcher and Chris
Did you manage to sort out a photo for the possible gravestone?
I can visit the cemetery as it is local to me, if that is any help. The section does not appear too badly overgrown (well, it's nothing like parts of Nunhead cemetery!! - Chris will know what I'm talking about).
Gaie
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Hi aussie researcher and Chris
Did you manage to sort out a photo for the possible gravestone?
I can visit the cemetery as it is local to me, if that is any help. The section does not appear too badly overgrown (well, it's nothing like parts of Nunhead cemetery!! - Chris will know what I'm talking about).
Gaie
Hi Gaie,
Thanks for your message.
I have now obtained photos of where the Hennings grave would have been. Sadly no longer there.
I do have other family graves (Druce) to explore that are ? close by if your visiting the Cemetery any time. Send me PM if this is something you might be able to do.
Thank you
Aussie Researcher
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West Norwood cemetery rang a bell (very belatedly I’m afraid). THe council were taken to court 20 odd years ago for vandalising many of the graves. It seems that at least part of the cemetery is subject to Faculty jurisdiction ie Church Courts - Southwark anglican diocese in this case.
This gives the background. — just read management summary first paragraph.
https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s107141/CMDDR%20Governance%20arrangements%20for%20West%20Norwood%20Cemetery.pdf
See also the Friends of West Norwood cemetery web site
https://www.fownc.org/search/
We have just over 500 names in the Surrey MI Index from this cemetery, but not the ones you are after unfortunately.
HTH
Tony Kelly,
Monumental Inscriptions Manager
Surrey Monumental Inscriptions Library
West Surrey Family History Society
http://www.wsfhs.org
tracing our roots ….
…. celebrating our heritage
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Thanks Tony,
Sad but interesting read, makes it more understandable why there are not headstones.
Other than damage due to Bombing years ago.
The FOWNC have been most helpful.
The family are keen to replace or at least have some kind of monument placed to represent the families. I believe there will be many to be represented.
Thanks again
Aussie Researcher
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One of the things that came out of the legal hoo-ha was this Database of Reused Graves at West Norwood (https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/bereavement-services/west-norwood-cemetery-grave-search). No Hennings listed, so the disappearance of their gravestone must be for other reasons, but there are some Druces:-
Grave number: 168-78
Deceased:
George Druce buried in 1854
John Druce buried in 1840
Mary Druce buried in 1883
Susannah Hack buried in 1874
Thomas Druce buried in 1854
William Druce buried in 1847
William Druce buried in 1851
Grave number: 6532-62
Deceased:
Ann Druce buried in 1859
which I rather fear are among yours. The database doesn't say who's buried there now, and I think the plot number changes when a grave is resold, so a map will be needed to find the spots. I don't think you'll be allowed to put a headstone on a reused plot, but you could name them on a Hennings headstone with "buried in plot xxxx-yy" or "buried elsewhere in this cemetery".
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Thanks Chris,
This is imformative.
I guess the family can create a headstone with as you say a list of those who are buried in the cemetery but not able to have an individual headstone.
It might be the cost affective way to do it too.
It is very sad but when someone has died over 150 years ago.
Without this research now they would have gone on being forgotten.
I'm sure the family will find a way to remember these family members for the future.
Thanks again Chris and everyone.