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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: LizzieL on Wednesday 27 May 20 11:40 BST (UK)
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Was the government right to ease lockdown so much a couple of weeks ago? Was it too much too soon? The three part message was no longer "Save the NHS", that was over, we'd all done that - or most of us had. Now it was time to over stretch the other emergency services
The new message: Drive as far as you like for as long as you like - but don't stay overnight or cross the border into Wales or Scotland.
Inevitably it started a stampede of "holiday makers" to the beaches and "beauty spots", which wer crowded, littered, reportedly urinated on etc. Roads were crammed with traffic, car parks (if open) were full and overflowing. And a lot of this on the first warm weekday after the announcement. But the schools were off, many adults were "working from home", so obviously the ideal opportunity for a staycation. And many did, judging from photos and police reports of having to rouse sleeping "happy campers" in tents and campervans early in the morning.
The RNLI put out a warning about large waves, rip tides etc off the south west coast for the recent bank holiday. And said their lifeguard coverage was lower than usual.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-52690132
Now the RNLI (often referred to as our 4th emergency service) is getting criticised after 2 deaths off the Cornish coast.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-52805583
A fire which has been burning from several days in Wareham forest in Dorset was probably caused by a barbecue as several disposal barbecues were found by fire-fighters on the site.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52799505
https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/18471098.wareham-forest-fire-helicopter-dorset-deal-fire/
https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/18474363.wareham-forest-fire-evacuated-family-call-disposable-barbecues-not-used/
This has taken several fire crews from adjoining counties since 18th May and has destroyed a huge area of wildlife habitat.
There's another "beauty spot" gone for a few decades.
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Certainly too much, too soon. To see and hear people now, I think at least half of the population think it is over and everything is back to normal.
I was horrified to read on a FB group "It's over, let's get back to normal. Some won, some lost, life goes on." I had to point out that for probably 50, 000 people and their families in the UK alone, life doesn't go on!
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The RNLI has come in for a lot of criticism, rather unjustly in my opinion.
People have been going into the sea in places where are clear warnings out for them not to do so.
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And before the latest easing two people from Slough had to be rescued from Old Harry rocks in Dorset. The third member of their party swam to Studland to raise the alarm - no mean feat in itself.
The rescue needed Lifeboats, a helicopter, ambulance and police.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52588352
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The capacity for some human beings to kid themselves that bad things happen to other people, not to them constantly amazes me.
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I might drive to the coast and look at the sea and IF it's not crowded, I'll take a walk by the sea. I've really missed my coastal strolls.
(I might even go to Barnard Castle - 1 h 8 min (58.0 mi) via A1(M)
but it has probably become a Mecca by now)
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(I might even go to Barnard Castle but it has probably become a Mecca by now)
A young relative who lives there reports many camera crews wandering around :-X
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(I might even go to Barnard Castle but it has probably become a Mecca by now)
A young relative who lives there reports many camera crews wandering around :-X
Perhaps they were sheep... ;D
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I don't understand why - the bird has flown ::)
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I don't understand why - the bird has flown ::)
Probably desperately trying to find other people who might have seen him.
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I've discovered I can still drive! Haven't driven for about 8 weeks, but my nephew's partner got me up some bread today and rather than her drop it off, I said I'd pick it up as I wanted to make sure the car started. I was surprised how much traffic there was.
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How were the eyes, groom :-X
Aren't our delivery people great. I'm not sure I could have got through this far without them. The chemist delivery man has just dropped off a prescription (I didn't have to ask and for free), the psotman has dropped off a couple of urgent packages and the Sainsbury's lady has arrived with my groceries :)
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Our local pub has been doing take aways a few days a week, mostly pizza and pasta, but two weeks ago started a Thursday special, had one last Thursday - chicken and veg skewers, very nice. As pub is three quarters of a mile away, down one hill and up another one, I drove there. Did feel strange after so long and didn't feel I should have had an earlier test drive to check my eyes either
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We've managed drives to Hexham every 2-3 weeks.
Waitrose doesn't deliver to Newcastle so we do a click and collect from Hexham (clutching the order note in case stopped) . It's really lovely to see some rolling Northumberland countryside :)
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It's really lovely to see some rolling Northumberland countryside :)
While you're over here should do a round trip from Hexham through 'The Shire'. It must be looking lovely this time of year.
If anyone stops you you could say you are testing your eyesight before the journey home.
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Eight and a half million employees on furlough maybe to join the ranks of the unemployed
At the time of Jarrow hunger marches 19.7% of the workforce was unemployed, today more than 25%
of the workforce are looking at that fate.
Your kids? My kids. Your grandchildren? My grandchildren?
Mike
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We've managed drives to Hexham every 2-3 weeks.
Waitrose doesn't deliver to Newcastle so we do a click and collect from Hexham (clutching the order note in case stopped) . It's really lovely to see some rolling Northumberland countryside :)
I should have been in Hexham this spring for an event at the Auction Mart. It is a lovely area. The event is twice a year, don't know whether it will be able to go ahead in late September. Might be too difficult to socially distance. Fortunately we haven't booked our hotel yet. We stay in Corbridge or Ponteland.
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We stay in Corbridge or Ponteland.
:o :o
If you are visiting Hexham, then stay here! There are some good hotels :)
(sorry I'm going off topic again :-X )
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Eight and a half million employees on furlough maybe to join the ranks of the unemployed
At the time of Jarrow hunger marches 19.7% of the workforce was unemployed, today more than 25%
of the workforce are looking at that fate.
Your kids? My kids. Your grandchildren? My grandchildren?
What is the point you are trying to make?
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Ponteland was a hangover from when the event was held in Ponteland, and last autumn we left it a bit late to book, so could only get in at Corbridge. If it does go ahead this autumn, will try Hexham again.
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Eight and a half million employees on furlough maybe to join the ranks of the unemployed
At the time of Jarrow hunger marches 19.7% of the workforce was unemployed, today more than 25%
of the workforce are looking at that fate.
Your kids? My kids. Your grandchildren? My grandchildren?
What is the point you are trying to make?
Another six weeks of lockdown, as some are suggesting, would result in a situation worse than that in Jarrow.
The choice now is between the devil and the deep blue sea, I wondered what others thought.
Mike
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The chemist delivery man has just dropped off a prescription (I didn't have to ask and for free),
Mine did that, much to my surprise. I always put in an order online with the doctor, they send it to the chemist and I pick it up three or four days later. I did the same a couple of weeks ago and the next day there was a ring on the bell and someone from the chemist had left the prescription on the door step and was waiting until I picked it up. I wondered whether that was special treatment or if they just decided it was easier than having people picking it up from the shop.
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In reply to the original question as to whether the government was right to ease the lockdown - I simply don't know but I really hope the figures don't prove that they were wrong. At the beginning of the lockdown there was a lot of discussion about whether the lockdown should have happened sooner. On one of the few programmes I watched about coronavirus a group of eminent scientists were answering such questions. The feeling was that if the lockdown had happened sooner then people would have got sick of it earlier and started taking risks at the time when the infection rate was at its peak.
As for the easing, I don't know whether delaying it would have made any difference, there seems to have been so many instances of people taking the decision into their own hands. Personally, I haven't done anything different as I'm still far too scared to take the slightest risk. There are over four hundred confirmed cases in my local authority area, heaven knows how many unconfirmed cases there are and considering how idiotically some people have been behaving I certainly wouldn't want to encounter any of them.
So I won't be going to Barnard Castle (less than an hour's drive) despite the fact that my great great grandmother was born there, in the Market Place. I'm assuming that means in a house, not amongst the stalls. ;)
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Mike, I think the choice is between the devil (continuing lockdown) and normality. Lockdown achieved its aim of flattening the curve weeks ago and should have long since ended. It is clear from elsewhere that there is no second wave and we now know that for most people Covid 19 is far less serious than originally envisaged.
On the other hand the implications of mass unemployment are truly frightening.
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Lockdown achieved its aim of flattening the curve weeks ago and should have long since ended. It is clear from elsewhere that there is no second wave and we now know that for most people Covid 19 is far less serious than originally envisaged.
I have never understood which curve we are flattening.
People are still dying of the disease - new deaths are reported every day - 412 yesterday after two lower days (due to weekend effect) - Obviously that is far fewer per day than in April but a curve where cumulative total number of deaths is plotted against time is not flat, but it is only rising gradually.
New cases are reported every day - 2,013 yesterday, so again a curve of cumulative number of cases against time is not flat.
And the new cases are only those who have had a positive test which have been reported on that day. Reports are coming in on people waiting several days for results. A delivery man in our local area had to wait seven days from giving his sample to getting his result (negative fortunately). But he had to self isolate for that time and his employer had to find someone else to cover for him.
I think politicians mean we are beyond the peak, which is undeniable, when they say we have flattened the curve. But if lockdown and social distancing are really working at the moment, why are we still getting so many new cases daily? Probably because an estimated 20% of people are not complying with the rules (around 13 million people).
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A successful rescue off a Cornish beach - this time of a trained life-guard and surf coach
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-52822604
And another chance to criticise the RNLI.
Looks like another warm weekend coming up, so the usual stampede to the beaches.
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we ( husband and I) had a brief trip to the nearest beach to us last week on a Weekday- about 20 minutes away . We went lunchtime and the car park was socially spaced even though you could park in any bay. We walked down onto the stony beach, there were others around but everyone was being very sensible. A few families with youngsters paddling, one kayaker on the waves. Lots of excited dogs. Back up onto the top and an ice cream van one of the regulars had arrived in the car park so we treated ourselves to a 99. Yes that was a risk having a non wrapped ice cream , but we thought, they are a a local firm been in business donkeys years, so they'll have an interest in the highest steps of hygiene. Then we drove home. It was lovely to get some sea air into the lungs and a real treat I'd been missing during lockdown. It wasn't a long outing but it was worth its weight mentally.
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About time some people saw common sense, in a few weeks we might be able to do all the things we want to do now, but we have to bide our time for the good of ourselves and other, I belong to the over 70's, had difficulty getting an online shopping slot so had to go out armed with a mask, gloves and sanitizer, I have now found the right time to shop when hardly anyone is around , this week is particularly quiet I have noticed, have people over spent and living out of a freezer,?, we just have to still be very careful.
Just be sensible in what you do and keep safe, but then again it is not us RC' s that need telling
Louisa Maud
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RNLI busy again today and the Royal Navy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52830347
This one from Birmingham
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Talking to my sister on the phone today and she was telling me that my niece, who is a Teaching Assistant has to go into work two days next week, as 66 out of 77 year 6 children have said they are going back. They have been divided in six groups of 11. I wonder how many will drop out when they realise it isn't "normal" school and that they will be restricted with what they can do. On the other hand, at the school where my nephew's son goes, only 3 out of 35 are going in.
My niece now has the problem of what does she do with her two children, aged 10 and almost 4, neither due to go back. She could, as a key worker send them into their school and nursery, but as they have been isolated all this time doesn't want to do that. So my sister is having them, as they decided that was safer all round.
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I have every sympathy with teachers when the youngsters return to school, it must have been very difficult for families home for so long, never before have children been cooped up for so long getting bored and misbehaving
Louisa Maud
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Just because the government have drawn a line in the sand and its suddenly (according to them) safe for certain children to go back to school doesn't mean that parents are going to trust to that. I wouldn't blame them: I don't blame the teachers for being wary either.
After recent events, I think most of the population have lost all trust in what the government say and do and prefer to make their own minds up.
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A successful rescue off a Cornish beach - this time of a trained life-guard and surf coach
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-52822604
And another chance to criticise the RNLI.
Looks like another warm weekend coming up, so the usual stampede to the beaches.
Lockdown also easing in Scotland from tomorrow.
We are requested to go by foot or bicycle and preferably no more than 5 miles from home when travelling for exercise or leisure.
A journalist asked about beaches and the fear of residents of coastal towns that crowds will descend on them.
Beach-goers should realise that RNLI is a voluntary organisation.
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I see you can now have 6 people in a garden 2 metres apart.
How many gardens in England are large enough to do that?
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8 people in Scotland!
People in each household don't have to remain apart from each other.
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I see you can now have 6 people in a garden 2 metres apart.
How many gardens in England are large enough to do that?
As they can only be from two households, the geometry becomes easier to manage.
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As they can only be from two households, the geometry becomes easier to manage.
That's why children have to return to school - to ensure they are proficient in geometry. ;D
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I see you can now have 6 people in a garden 2 metres apart.
How many gardens in England are large enough to do that?
As they can only be from two households, the geometry becomes easier to manage.
No they could in theory be from 6 different households
" Groups of up to six people from different households will be able to meet outside in England from Monday, Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced.
They can meet in gardens - in addition to parks - as long as households keep two metres apart.
"These changes mean friends and family will start to meet loved ones," in what would be a "long awaited and joyful moment," he added.
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Isn't the two metres a recommendation rather than a legally enforceable rule? The WHO has suggested that one metre is sufficient.
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Good news from the Isle of Man!
No deaths or new cases for 12 days.
Active cases - 3.
No in hospital - zero.
Hospitality sector may reopen mid-June.
Borders still closed - due to uncertainty of infected people in the adjacent isle ;D
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I see you can now have 6 people in a garden 2 metres apart.
How many gardens in England are large enough to do that?
As they can only be from two households, the geometry becomes easier to manage.
No they could in theory be from 6 different households
" Groups of up to six people from different households will be able to meet outside in England from Monday, Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced.
They can meet in gardens - in addition to parks - as long as households keep two metres apart.
"These changes mean friends and family will start to meet loved ones," in what would be a "long awaited and joyful moment," he added.
Strange - I was sure I heard that as part of the briefing yesterday, but I can't find it in writing anywhere. Maybe I imagined it.
Edit: It is in Scotland, not England. Groups of up to eight, but only from two households.
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Incident in East Anglia a few days ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-52836702
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My new normal begins with returning to school next week. We are a large secondary school and years 10 and 12 are due back in two weeks time. Steps are in place but how it will work in practice we will have to see. I have lost some confidence over time and become a little insular which really isn't me. It will take time but we may have to live with a few more changes yet.
Tazzie
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Perhaps the lockdown is easing because the spike after VE Day never came, a small hope for the future?
Mike
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8 people in Scotland!
People in each household don't have to remain apart from each other.
Sorry you do have to observe social distancing rules-
https://www.gov.scot/news/lockdown-begins-to-ease-in-phase-1/
“From tomorrow, two households will be allowed to meet in outdoor spaces up to a suggested maximum of eight people. However, it is important that physical distancing and hygiene rules are maintained.”
It also states-
“From tomorrow (29 May), one household can now meet up with another outdoors. This can be in one household’s garden, but physical distancing is still required. It is expected households will only meet one other household within the same day and up to a recommended maximum of eight people in the overall group.”
Rules for England & Wales below
England
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-six-people-can-meet-outside-under-new-measures-to-ease-lockdown
“Groups of up to six people will be able to meet outdoors in England from Monday 1 June, including in gardens and other private outdoor spaces, provided strict social distancing guidelines are followed.”
Wales Rules will be announced by First Minister MarkDrayford at 12.30.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/can-i-meet-family-coronavirus-18327892
"From Monday, people from two different households in the same local area will be able to meet up outdoors. They must continue to maintain social distancing and strict hand hygiene.
We are also asking people to stay local – by local we mean, as a general rule, not travelling more than five miles from home to reduce the risk of coronavirus spreading as people begin to travel more.”
Cheers
Guy
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My new normal begins with returning to school next week. We are a large secondary school and years 10 and 12 are due back in two weeks time. Steps are in place but how it will work in practice we will have to see. I have lost some confidence over time and become a little insular which really isn't me. It will take time but we may have to live with a few more changes yet.
Tazzie
At least at that age they should be able to understand and keep to social distancing. I taught for over 30 years in Primary schools and I’m certainly grateful I don’t have the problem of trying to keep 4 and 5 year olds apart! How do you explain to a 4 year old why they can’t play on the carpet with their friend, or why suddenly they are in a different class?
I taught year 6, and this is the time of year when they would be visiting Secondary schools, going on school trips, practicing for end of term shows, looking forward to leaving parties etc. Instead they will be taught in a small group or bubble, who they have to stay with all the time, be in different classrooms that have been stripped bare, different teachers, no pe, no football at playtime, no sharing of anything etc. I really pity them and all teachers at this time.
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Guy, Just because Sturgeon says something doesn't make it legally enforceable. She has said that visitors should bring their own plates, cutlery and food; I confidently predict that almost everyone will ignore these ridiculous recommendations - we are all adults and are perfectly capable of washing up plates etc hygienically. As for her grotesque rule that you mustn't allow legitimate visitors to visit the toilet this is beyond absurd and will be completely ignored. Politicians should treat people like adults and not try to micromanage every aspect of our lives.
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All I can see soon is my neighbours that join on having a party after party, if music till 12.45 am isn't enough frequently, and they father and son go to work, inconsiderate to say the least, I am not a happy bunny at all
Louisa Maud
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This new rule puts us in a dilemma, son & daughter in law live a few miles from us but they have 3 children so we can't legally meet up with them! Do they leave the 3 year old at home because he's most likely to not obey the 2 metre rule or do we do a Cummings and bend the rules? Any thoughts?
Linda
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They could drive any distance ( say 260 miles) to get childcare for the 3 year old, then the rest of the family could visit you. Easily solved
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Welsh rules seem rather restrictive at 5 miles - although I can see the point of restricting people from moving around too much. I wonder how many families still live that close to each other. My nearest relative is 170 miles away, not easily done in a day trip - about 8 hours on the road in total.
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Guy, Just because Sturgeon says something doesn't make it legally enforceable.
I totally agree which is why have previously posted links to the legislation as well as the to the guidance, but many people do not seem to understand the difference.
She has said that visitors should bring their own plates, cutlery and food; I confidently predict that almost everyone will ignore these ridiculous recommendations - we are all adults and are perfectly capable of washing up plates etc hygienically.
Yes but many do not seem to understand if those hygienically washed plates & cutlery are handled the hygiene has been compromised, I have seen many instances of cups being picked up in cafes and restaurants by their rims rather than their handles in normal times to be aware of poor hygiene practice. That being so I think Nicola Sturgeon's suggestion is good advice (even though I can't stand the woman).
As for her grotesque rule that you mustn't allow legitimate visitors to visit the toilet this is beyond absurd and will be completely ignored. Politicians should treat people like adults and not try to micromanage every aspect of our lives.
Again that is good practical advice, I am certain that very few families would clean every surface in the toilet a distant member of the family might have touched or breathed on each time a distant member of the family used it, most would possible wipe the seat, taps and possibly change the towel, but I tend to think that many would think to themselves it was only my son who used the toilet he is well so no problem and leave cleaning the toilet until the visit was over or until the next time it was due to be cleaned.
I think most of us tend to bend the rules where family is concerned for many reasons including not wanting to make them feel uncomfortable.
Cheers
Guy
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At yesterday's daily briefing on number of new infections, it was said that the number who had tested positive was 1,887, down a little from 2,013 the previous day. Quite a high number in itself and not falling very fast.
But Sir Patrick Vallance said “The UK is seeing 54,000 new virus infections in the community every week/ This is still a significant burden of new infections – around 8,000 per day,”
So it looks like only 1 in 4 of infections being recorded, because they are a result of a positive test. But we're doing 100,000 tests a day supposedly and anyone with symptoms is able to get one. So why such a discrepancy.
The highest number of daily cases reported was on April 10 when there were 8,681 positive tests recorded. At this time I believe testing was only done in hospital so many people with mild symptoms self-isolating at home where never tested, so not included in the total. There must really have been many more on April 10th.
This is very worrying.
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My cousin died on April 9th aged 68, a complete shock .
Louisa Maud
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I'm so sorry for you, you must still be devastated by it.
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8 people in Scotland!
People in each household don't have to remain apart from each other.
Sorry you do have to observe social distancing rules-
https://www.gov.scot/news/lockdown-begins-to-ease-in-phase-1/
“From tomorrow, two households will be allowed to meet in outdoor spaces up to a suggested maximum of eight people. However, it is important that physical distancing and hygiene rules are maintained.”
It also states-
“From tomorrow (29 May), one household can now meet up with another outdoors. This can be in one household’s garden, but physical distancing is still required. It is expected households will only meet one other household within the same day and up to a recommended maximum of eight people in the overall group.”
Sorry Guy, you have misunderstood what this means. "Physical distancing" is a phrase that appears elsewhere in the Scottish guidance. Here it isn't a blanket instruction referring to the distance between all individuals in a garden get-together, but shorthand for "following the previously stated guidance on physical distancing". Key elements to this are as follows:
You should stay at home as much as possible. You should only leave the house for very limited purposes, for example:
[all examples snipped except this one]
exercise and other outdoor activity alone or with members of 1 other household at a time
When doing these activities, you should ensure you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household.
Source: https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/pages/staying-at-home/
You can take part in outdoor recreation alone or with members of your household and/or members of 1 other household at a time, providing that physical distancing of at least 2 metres is maintained between the different households at all times.
Source: https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/pages/meeting-others-outdoors/
So as long as there is 2m between different households, members of each household can be as close as they like to each other.
That's the position in Scotland. The English guidance is similar:
When you do need to go out, you should follow the guidelines on staying safe outside your home. Most importantly, this includes the key advice that you should stay two metres apart from anyone outside of your household.
Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/staying-alert-and-safe-social-distancing/staying-alert-and-safe-social-distancing
All quotes/sources accessed today, but be aware that they can sometimes change.
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8 people in Scotland!
People in each household don't have to remain apart from each other.
Sorry you do have to observe social distancing rules-
https://www.gov.scot/news/lockdown-begins-to-ease-in-phase-1/
“From tomorrow, two households will be allowed to meet in outdoor spaces up to a suggested maximum of eight people. However, it is important that physical distancing and hygiene rules are maintained.”
It also states-
“From tomorrow (29 May), one household can now meet up with another outdoors. This can be in one household’s garden, but physical distancing is still required. It is expected households will only meet one other household within the same day and up to a recommended maximum of eight people in the overall group.”
snipped for brevity
I understand that the social distancing only applied to separate grouping of households and not individuals mixing with other individuals of the same household, and I imagined everyone else understood that, I am very sorry I did not spell that out in words of one syllable
Cheers
Guy
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Whilst you men peck each other's heads over the details of this latest edict from the government, does anyone actually think its going to make any difference whatsoever? Whether you have 6 people, 8 people or the whole of the Dagenham Girl Pipers in your garden for a barbie, it won't matter. People will enjoy themselves at being able to meet up again; children won't understand that they have to stay 2 metres away from grandma and grandpa and the whole thing will be pointless.
We either stay isolated at home or we don't - I don't see that there are any half measures. The track and field sorry, trace thing won't work because nothing this government does seems to work. Its embarrassing. I feel like the whole of the rest of the world are chortling at our ineptitude.
If we're coming out of lockdown - get on with it, give it 2/3 weeks and see what happens (whilst I and people like me stay away from all these interminable virtual smelly barbies ) It has to be a barbie, apparently: you can't just sit in your garden and not feed the 5,000). If the blessed R rate doesn't go up, then - hallelujah - we're all saved. If it does...well, back to square one!
So, please cease and desist going on and on about the ruddy minutae and either enjoy your barbie or don't. I shall be drinking my glass of Scrumpy Jack on the patio, alone (my choice) unless of course all the barbies remind me of the smell of napalm in the morning, in which case me and Jack will retire to the withdrawing room.
I thank you!
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I understand that the social distancing only applied to separate grouping of households and not individuals mixing with other individuals of the same household, and I imagined everyone else understood that, I am very sorry I did not spell that out in words of one syllable
So why correct Maiden Stone when she said exactly that?
8 people in Scotland!
People in each household don't have to remain apart from each other.
Sorry you do have to observe social distancing rules-
https://www.gov.scot/news/lockdown-begins-to-ease-in-phase-1/
“From tomorrow, two households will be allowed to meet in outdoor spaces up to a suggested maximum of eight people. However, it is important that physical distancing and hygiene rules are maintained.”
etc etc
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And still they go on....please, in the words of that awful song 'Let It Go'!!!
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I second that
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This new rule puts us in a dilemma, son & daughter in law live a few miles from us but they have 3 children so we can't legally meet up with them! Do they leave the 3 year old at home because he's most likely to not obey the 2 metre rule or do we do a Cummings and bend the rules? Any thoughts?
Linda
It's my 5 year old granddaughter's birthday next week. She has 2 sisters, aged 8 & almost 2. I'm hoping Grandma & Grandad will be able to see them & their parents next week for the first time in 3 months, as their garden is big enough for us to be 2m apart. (Actually my daughter suggested to be totally sure we could sit on the trampoline to stay away from the toddler ;D )
Oh no..... That will make 7 of us. I might just have to use my instinct then..... :-\
I suppose we could all drive to Scotland where a group of 8 is allowed (we could just about make it there and back within the day ;D )
Pat
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And I see today that South Korea has closed many of the very recently-opened schools etc because of a big spike traced back to a large distribution warehouse just outside Seoul 'thousands of workers being tested' - BBC News website (World section)
So much for something I read on here recently 'there has been no second wave in other countries'
Pat
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Roopat, I think a lot of families will face the same dilemma, as any with three children won't be able to meet both grandparents. It's a pity it isn't 6 people, if it is friends all from different households and 8 if it is just two families from different households. I think a lot of people will bend the rules a bit where families are concerned and meet up in private gardens, even if it means there are 4 adults and 3 children. If you social distance it shouldn't make any difference.
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I think families will do whatever's best for their family , if they have more than the apparent 2 children per family .
I wouldn't like to be sat on the trampoline mind you!
We went for a walk on a disused railway walk near us a few days ago and saw what you could tell were two different households - mum plus teenager and a different mum plus their teenager. The mum's were perfectly distanced chatting away happily. The teenagers, both boys - I'd guess about 13 year olds - were behind arguing! They had a branch of a tree with them and one was telling the other, you have to be at the other end of that branch , that's 2 metres you idiot. That's a quote. I had to laugh inwardly. I wasn't sure if the mum's had given them the branch or they decided to use it!
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There's a handy, simple to understand chart "UK rules on meeting up" at the foot of the article "Coronavirus: What are social distancing and self-isolation?"
https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51506729
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Strange - I was sure I heard that as part of the briefing yesterday, but I can't find it in writing anywhere. Maybe I imagined it.
Edit: It is in Scotland, not England. Groups of up to eight, but only from two households.
Nicola Sturgeon is in the habit of making things clear in her briefings. I'm often unsure at the end of the PM's public outings what he said.
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People across the back lane from me had grandpa visiting today. I heard him and youngest child (aged 4) saying goodbye to each other. It made me happy. The couple next door to them may have had visitors as well.
I hope there are no barbecues.
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There is a large area of public land opposite our house and it has been busy all day with people out enjoying the sunshine. Children have been laughing and playing with each other and adults freely chatting to each other. So called social distancing seems pretty much dead and it is increasingly clear that the confused and muddled governments of the various parts of the UK are losing control of their ability to micromanage people's lives. We had to make an essential car journey today and the roads were back to where they were before lockdown. Whatever your personal views may be it seems clear to me that people have had enough of the politicians and their myriad of rules and restrictions.
As regards North Korea there were 58 new cases identified today and no new deaths - I don't see this as being a big spike. The European nations with which we are most directly comparable have restored freedom to their people without any adverse effects.
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Reply 68 sonofthom. I think you have confused and muddled your North and South Korea. South Korea was mentioned by roopat. Perhaps it was the combination of the words "government", "control" and "micromanage" in your post which put you in mind of North Korea.
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Oops, thanks Maiden Stone; a bit of a Freudian slip as Scotland has been compared to North Korea quite a bit recently. However the figures I quoted were correctly for SOUTH Korea.
Maybe I should take up an online geography course during lockdown?
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And still they go on....please, in the words of that awful song 'Let It Go'!!!
I'm sorry you were upset by my posts, but I think you might not have grasped how angry and upset some of us are by recent events, and such feelings can't be just told to go away.
In some ways this forum is a microcosm of the country as a whole: some people are feeling hurt, betrayed and deceived, while others urge them to 'move on' or 'calm down'. Some people seek answers to difficult questions, others want to close down the discussion.
Belittling people for taking things literally when (with no indication being given at the time) they were not meant to be taken that way or 'only a joke', or putting out misleading or confusing information, can be symptoms of gaslighting. Those who experience this are right to feel aggrieved, and should not be blamed for drawing attention to it.
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Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester, today, interview. Wants more statistical information broken down by area so that people in that area can make informed decisions about what to do. He made a similar request 3 weeks ago, at the time of the first easing of restrictions. He, the Merseyside Mayor and leaders of other local authorities, have expressed criticism this month about the lack of consultation before changes were announced nationally. Liverpool was a Covid hotspot.
Andy Burnham was Secretary of State for Health at the time of the SARS outbreak.
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I agree with him. The https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/ website tells me there are a total of 230 cases in my local authority area, but no indication of whether the daily no of cases is rising or falling, or anything more detailed about where in a large rural area they are. I am right on the north east corner of the area. The south west corner is about 25 miles away from me. There are two large towns almost encircled by my LTLA which have substantially higher numbers and rates, I suspect most of the cases in my LTLA are on the borders of these two towns, which are comfortably far away from me.
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Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester, today, interview. Wants more statistical information broken down by area so that people in that area can make informed decisions about what to do
Link to recording of interview + a summary from Centre for Mathematical Modelling of Infectious Diseases (includes link to London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine)
https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM
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I too would like more detailed information. The NHS England spreadsheet for deaths due to Coronavirus has a number of tabs for its analysis, one of which is by health trust. The area covered by my health trust is large and diverse and includes a very large town which is a hotspot. The figures which are published by the government by local authority area are for confirmed cases, not deaths. The local authority area I live in includes some suburbs of that hotspot, as well as the town I live in and a number of outlying villages. It's very difficult to deduce what the risk levels are. I'm playing safe, partly due to that and partly because visitors from the hotspot are coming to the coast.
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I've just watched last night's Have I Got News For You on catch up. Hilarious!
Mostly about you know who and his trip to Durham. I couldn't stop laughing. If you want a good laugh, give it a go!!
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Here's a link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000jk6z/have-i-got-news-for-you-series-59-episode-9
We're a laughing stock.
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Have you all seen this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52864454
and this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52862440
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I saw that earlier; terrifying scenes of people totally disregarding social distancing. Yesterday's briefing included the information that we are having about 8,000 new cases of covid-19 a day, and that's with lockdown. I dread to think what kind of carnage will be wrought by hundreds of people crowding together. Someone (not on here) posted recently that we should just go out and learn to live with covid-19. I pointed out that what they were really talking about is asking people to learn to die with it.
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Opinion piece on NZ site by someone in London ends
“ The featureless ministers, the droning answers that say nothing, the avoidance of anything resembling liveliness or humour or a shared acknowledgement of humanity - all of it is intentional to keep the public at arm's length.
That's not just because the Tories hate their own constituents, but because a disengaged population who thinks politics is boring and inaccessible poses no threat to power.
They want people to leave these briefings befuddled and bored, deciding they'll use their own common sense rather than listen to what a bunch of Westminster elites have to say.
Then when a deadly virus kills a vast swathe of the population because public health advice wasn't followed, they can say it was our fault.”
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I see they are now going to ease the lock down on those who have been asked to shield.
" Vulnerable people in England who have been asked to remain at home since the coronavirus lockdown began are to be allowed outdoors once a day with members of their household from Monday."
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Have you all seen this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52864454
and this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52862440 *******
ref here, groom
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That's worrying really, why the rush? Or is it to try and make people forget about the DC affair?
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Sadly, I think it might be. It fits with all we've observed so far.
I'm starting to get even more worried now.
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Opinion piece on NZ site by someone in London ends
“ The featureless ministers, the droning answers that say nothing, the avoidance of anything resembling liveliness or humour or a shared acknowledgement of humanity - all of it is intentional to keep the public at arm's length.
That's not just because the Tories hate their own constituents, but because a disengaged population who thinks politics is boring and inaccessible poses no threat to power.
They want people to leave these briefings befuddled and bored, deciding they'll use their own common sense rather than listen to what a bunch of Westminster elites have to say.
Then when a deadly virus kills a vast swathe of the population because public health advice wasn't followed, they can say it was our fault.”
Its a theory!! A valid opinion, but I think its crediting our lot with more guile and knowledge of human nature than they will ever have. I think they are just naturally a load of boring, droning, colourless, idea-less automatons who are interested only in their careers. I do, however, go along with the notion that they hate their constituents - perhaps loathe would be a better word. To them, we are the little people, a means to an end (their cabinet position). I just wish - oh, how I wish - that their constituents would stop being taken in by these moronic clowns and do something about it. If it takes a rebellion, then for gods sake let's have one before these self-serving cretins make us even more of a laughing stock than we already are.
Once upon a time, this country could organise and - wonder of wonders - make things happen. There are still individuals out there - there must be - who are creative and capable but they are held in place by meaningless bureaucracy and, mostly men, arguing over who has the biggest conker in the schoolyard. Its why the NHS doesn't function properly.
If we do get a second spike of this virus, I vote we sack the lot of them and replace them with the scientists and doctors who very obviously didn't want the politicians to lift the lockdown this quickly.
I know parliament can take a vote of no confidence in the government. Why can't we, the populace, do the same thing? Do we really have to put up with this ineptitude for another 4+ years? God help us!
Right, got that off my chest. Its 11.30pm and - honestly - I haven't touched a drop. i am now going to put that right. Nice bottle of Yellow Tail in the fridge......
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Mckha that's rather harsh. It also shows misplaced confidence in their abilities to accomplish a scheme (unless the scheme begins with B and is a 3 word slogan).
The time is right to launch the prime minister exchange scheme. I nominate NZ PM to come to Britain. We'll all chip in to pay her return air fare. Ours will be travelling in the opposite direction by boat, one with a sail, like in the old days.
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When I wrote post 86 I didn't know there was another page.
Jill, my solution is more peaceful.
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Have you all seen this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-52864454
What idiots. I wonder how many more cases that will lead to in South Dorset. It's not a big beach, shingle and pebbles and usually has a lot of seaweed washed up in the high tides. Access is a steep and not very wide path.
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I see they are now going to ease the lock down on those who have been asked to shield.
" Vulnerable people in England who have been asked to remain at home since the coronavirus lockdown began are to be allowed outdoors once a day with members of their household from Monday."
Whilst i welcome the chance to walk a bit further than just round the garden for my exercise, I will still be avoiding supermarkets and anywhere even remotely busy.
And today's task will be to make those masks i thought I had plenty of time to make!
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I often wake in the night and sometimes watch the overnight discussions on the BBC re issues round the world.
Last night one of the debates re approach of different countries to the virus raised the successfull approach of Kerala, India which I hadn't heard about before http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pj7/
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And what was our government's response? Sit back and say "We're three weeks behind Italy" and do very little except tell us to wash our hands and sing "Happy Birthday".
At one point we had a couple of people in York infected who had arrived from China and a handful in Sussex who had come in from Italy. But we continued to let all and sundry into the country from anywhere and everywhere without any checks at all. We gave up testing and tracing people because we didn't have enough tests. Our lockdown came too late in the infection curve compared to most other countries. Lockdown openly flouted from the beginning, police encouraging people to disperse and go home, using fines (a mere £60 then) almost as a last resort. Now this latest easing means that anyone in England at least can go where they like, for as long as they like with the only proviso that they mustn't stay overnight. But we've all seen the pictures of the wild camping. If pictures from Dorset over the weekend are anything to go by, no-one bothers anymore about social distancing. It's not just Durdle, it was West Bexington (where police eventually closed roads) and Bournemouth beach was packed too. Trains down to Bournemouth were reported to be packed on Saturday. Many of the people at Durdle admitted to coming from London, it's around a 3 hour drive at the best of times, in the summer it can take a lot longer, there are no motorways in Dorset. The roads down to most of the small beaches along the Dorset coast are not wide, they're windy and can have blind summits. Three helicopters had to be used to airlift the morons who injured themselves to hospital, resources that should be used for the local community. Two had to be taken all the way to Southampton. An excellent hospital which is currently treating a friend of mine who contracted Covid in early April and many others who are suffering similarly.
Sadly here is one who didn't make it in that hospital
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-52852803
10 years younger than my friend. The slogan "Save the NHS" now seems to have been ditched completely.
Surely the economy could have been restarted without giving the general English public what appears to be total freedom. The police cannot enforce advice and guidelines, only laws.
The new freedoms only start today, so heaven knows what it will be like from now on. I was hoping that with some children back at school, they'll be fewer holidaymakers, but according to a report on the BBC website a survey has shown that almost half the parents of eligible pupils will keep their children at home. So no school again today for some. Another opportunity for a trip to the beach.
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I think the PM and the Cabinet have shown just how weak they are and how they have given in to big businesses and sport. I fail to see why sport has to restart at the moment, even behind closed doors - how long will it be before the sports associations are pushing to admit the public? Already on the radio this morning someone from cricket was saying how easy it would be to allow the public into some grounds as they could be segregated. Considering a lot of people think that one of the reasons the virus hit as badly as it did was because sports events weren't closed down quickly enough, why the rush to open them? Shops are demanding to open before the 15th June asking why, if car sales rooms and open air markets can, can't they. I would have thought the answer was simple, the markets are outdoors and car showrooms are hardly likely to be packed with people queuing up to buy a new car, unlike clothes and other shops.
I know the economy has to restart, but not at the risk of a second spike.
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Speaking of schools reopening, what's the general opinion on making up for lost time by either holding summer schools or lengthening the summer term to middle of August?
I know the teachers unions would probably be up in arms but, where's the harm in taking an unpecedented step during an unprecedented pandemic, and tagging some of the missed weeks of education onto the end of the term?
After all, I understand that the (over) long summer holidays only came about because children were needed to help bring in the harvest. Times have changed. These days, children just get bored and parents seem to get frazzled. Dare I say it, a lot of teachers have had a rest during lockdown (I know, I know - they work hard) so they shouldn't in all conscience object to - say - an extension into the middle of August.
Where's that parapet when you want to dip your head under it?! ;)
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That would only work if all children went back to school - at the moment parents have the choice whether or not to send them. My feeling (as a retired teacher) is that it will be very much child minding for the next few weeks with less than half the children back. Until social distancing is either reduced or relaxed completely, there just won't be the room in schools for all the children - one "normal class" would need to be split into at least two, so where are you going to put them all?
I would favour all children repeating this school year, starting September, but that probably isn't possible. Failing that, especially in Primary schools, the children staying with their present teacher and just carrying on next year. That way time wouldn't be wasted getting to know children and learning what they can do. Plus I think a lot of children, especially the younger ones, are going to find it very difficult to adjust to school life again, so having a teacher they know, would make it easier.
" a lot of teachers have had a rest during lockdown" Not true. In fact a lot I know have worked harder. They have had to adapt to finding, planning and presenting lessons on line, marking work that has come in, writing reports, making sure that children who don't have access to computers have paper copies, delivering the work to children etc. My great nephew's teacher has also visited all the children in her class once a fortnight, to make sure they are alright (staying at a distance of course) Most schools have also worked a rota with teachers going into schools a couple of days a week to cover the classes of key workers. Plus of course home schooling their own children. In fact a lot of my ex colleagues have said they will be glad to get back to normal.
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Mary Bousted, union leader, was asked about schooling during August in a tv interview yesterday.
She agreed with clubs etc being organised if desired but not by teachers.
Dare I say it, a lot of teachers have had a rest during lockdown (I know, I know - they work hard) so they shouldn't in all conscience object to - say - an extension into the middle of August.
Where's that parapet when you want to dip your head under it?! ;)
My daughter has worked throughout the crisis. They were given two days to organise home tuition for those children who were not key workers children.
The school had no holidays except Bank holidays at Easter and worked during the first week of the school holiday last week but have closed this week to prepare for opening next week.
She is a school leader and during her time in school these last weeks has taught, reviewed, phoned parents, visited families, liaised with social workers and other support workers and more.
Last week, the school received over 40 documents, emails and directives from the government/local government concerned with dealing with the crisis.
Yes, you are right ... unprecedented.
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More filthy animals - spitting and assaulting the people whose job it is to try and enforce social distancing guidelines - which are there for their own and everyone's safety.
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/18487588.staff-spat-abused-bournemouth-beaches/
And there was a repeat on Sunday of Saturday's crowds at Durdle Door, despite roads to both Durdle Door and Lulworth Cove having road closure signs up, people just ignored them.
I am really worried for friends and family who live and work in the area.
I hope Boris is proud of himself, he as good as encouraged everyone to do as they like.
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How did you work that out?
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One thing I've just realised over the last few days, I've been getting a lot of junk mail again, that's something I haven't missed.
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https://news.sky.com/world
Worth a read, it can’t all be made up.
Mike
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The graph for daily infections is here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
If you place the pointer on each column you get the number of new cases per day. I added them up for the last 14 days.
Using population number from here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
and calculating for 100,000.
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That would only work if all children went back to school - at the moment parents have the choice whether or not to send them. My feeling (as a retired teacher) is that it will be very much child minding for the next few weeks with less than half the children back. Until social distancing is either reduced or relaxed completely, there just won't be the room in schools for all the children - one "normal class" would need to be split into at least two, so where are you going to put them all?
Don't you think that the government was more aware of the childminding advantages of sending the little ones back to school than the educational? Free up the workers to keep the economy going .As for the room for social distancing - there are always ways around these problems. How about half the class do an extra month after the summer term and the other half go back early and do it before the next autumn term?
I would favour all children repeating this school year, starting September, but that probably isn't possible. Failing that, especially in Primary schools, the children staying with their present teacher and just carrying on next year. That way time wouldn't be wasted getting to know children and learning what they can do. Plus I think a lot of children, especially the younger ones, are going to find it very difficult to adjust to school life again, so having a teacher they know, would make it easier. Its an idea but is repeating the whole year necessary? They've only lost a couple of months. Surely it would be better to make up for those lost months by extending the final term?
" a lot of teachers have had a rest during lockdown" Not true. In fact a lot I know have worked harder. They have had to adapt to finding, planning and presenting lessons on line, marking work that has come in, writing reports, making sure that children who don't have access to computers have paper copies, delivering the work to children etc. My great nephew's teacher has also visited all the children in her class once a fortnight, to make sure they are alright (staying at a distance of course) Most schools have also worked a rota with teachers going into schools a couple of days a week to cover the classes of key workers. Plus of course home schooling their own children. In fact a lot of my ex colleagues have said they will be glad to get back to normal.
I'm sure there are a lot of dedicated, hard working teachers, just as there are in any profession. There will also be those who sit back and kick their heels whilst others do the work - again, as unfortunately there are in any profession. The thing about teachers is: every single one you talk to (or to their family) says how hard they work and how they spend their many weeks of school holidays with their noses to the grindstone. That's why I expected to have to dip my head below the parapet! I have known a few teachers and have lived near a few - and, when I was getting up at 6am to get to my (non teaching) job, their curtains were still drawn! Great stuff, if you can get it, but don't then try to convince me that they're working their socks off night and day because it just doesn't wash That's why successive education ministers have come up against the brickwall of the teaching unions. I think Gove called them The Blob! All I'm saying is that, with a bit of flexibility on the part of the teachers, it could work. After all, if, as they tell you, they're working all the time anyway, what difference will it make to do it in the classroom rather than on a sun lounger in the back garden (joke! ;))?
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Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester on "PM", Radio 4, now - public need clearer, localised information so they can decide what level of risk they want to expose themselves too. Asked about whether GM transport system can cope with increase in passengers while maintaining adequate distancing, replied that it would be a challenge when more shops opened in a couple of weeks.
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I had a problem with my car during lockdown and today it went into the garage to be repaired.
Have to say I was very impressed with their service and planning. On arrival at a prearranged time - all spread out to avoid too many people in at once - I was asked to put my car keys in a plastic zip lock bag. They phoned later to advise cost of repair and I agreed. They phoned again when it was ready and I paid over the phone. Went through to pick it up and the keys were still in the bag. What they'd done was press the button on the key fob through the bag and then because my car needs a key to start it, they'd pushed the key end through the plastic bag , so at no time did they touch the keys, only the bag.
When I got in the car ( armed with my own antibacterial wipe) there was a large sticker on the steering wheel that said with the garages official logo, ' this vehicle has been sanitised.' I was very impressed and I also have a repaired car too!
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Yesterday at the Downing Street briefing we were told that there were 111 daily confirmed deaths.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000jtkf/briefings-downing-street-coronavirus-news-conference-01062020
This morning on BBC Breakfast a figure in the 500s was mentioned. Did anyone else hear that?
Now I have found 556 mentioned in the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/01/coronavirus-uk-map-the-latest-deaths-and-confirmed-cases-near-you
Makes me very worried about believing what the politicians tell me at 5 pm every evening. Where did these extra 400 plus people come from?
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Where in that article does the figure 556 come from? I can't see it, but maybe the whole article isn't loading for me.
Edit. Found it elsewhere.
1,570 new cases and 111 new deaths in the United Kingdom. "Additional deaths, identified from Pillar 2 testing in England, have been added to the data over the last week. In total 445 deaths have been added, with dates of death back to 26 April 2020"
So the extra 445 deaths occurred over a 35 day period, ie about 13 extra deaths per day.
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Thanks, I hadn't seen that they were backdated over the preceding month or more.
Adding them all to yesterday's figure distorts the graph somewhat.
Several countries who were sensible enough to close their borders to all but a very limited amount of traffic are now planning to open them more widely in mid June. Some, quite understandably, are restricting them to countries where the infection rate is similar or less than their own. Using measures like cumulative number of infections in 14 days or 7 days per 100,000 of population. If they started to look at our published death numbers, with distortions like this, we could be banned from anywhere for a long time.
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Posted on wrong thread, sorry.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/02/statistics-watchdog-ministers-still-misleading-public-on-coronavirus-tests
This is also reported in other newspapres and media.
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The number of actual people tested per day has been missing from the PHE website for almost two weeks now. Yesterday and today the presenters of the BBC Breakfast programme asked whichever government minister they had on that day to answer that question and they burbled on about the track and trace system, which was irrelevant. The presenter wanted the number 10 days or so ago, before track and trace started. Looking at PHE site the number of tests sent out each day is 40 - 50K. Who's got them all, I wonder. I thought maybe it was institutions like care homes, but reports a couple of days ago were saying that a high proportion of staff still had not been tested. Now they've started counting the antibody test kits and the target has changed to capacity not actual tests.
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I have just started a petition
http://chng.it/My6G7Q5K
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I have just started a petition
http://chng.it/My6G7Q5K
I agree that the scenes in Dorset and other places are totally out of order.
However.....I am on the vulnerable list, so not able to visit anyone at the moment.
But if I wasn't on the list your proposed 30 mile rule would prevent me from going to spend time occasionally (out of doors of course) with my daughter and granddaughters.
How is your suggested 30 mile limit to be policed?
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30 mile - or whatever reasonable distance - could be policed by people needing to provide evidence of their home address if stopped by police. I suggested 30 miles but this is negotiable within reason. My nearest relatives are in Dorset - 170 miles from where I live, so I haven't picked 30 miles because it suits me personally. 5 miles as chosen by some other of the devolved parliaments seems a little on the small size. Several of my neighbours have family reasonably locally but more than 5 miles but less than 30.
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It would be completely unenforceable and discriminatory.
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I suggested 30 miles but this is negotiable within reason.
How do you suggest that the distance is to be negotiated?
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It would be completely unenforceable and discriminatory.
So you think the current situation of a free for all should continue?
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It would be completely unenforceable and discriminatory.
So you think the current situation of a free for all should continue?
I don't actually see a free for all.
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5 miles as chosen by some other of the devolved parliaments seems a little on the small size. Several of my neighbours have family reasonably locally but more than 5 miles but less than 30.
https://www.gov.scot/coronavirus-covid-19
Update 28th May. Phase 1 of the route map for moving out of lockdown.
Heading: "Travel for exercise, recreation and to meet family and friends"
"... our advice is that you should stay within your local area when you go out for exercise or other activities.
As a guide, rather than a fixed limit, 5 miles from your home would be within your local area. This is to reduce the risk that places such as beaches or popular beauty spots could become overcrowded."
It is suggested that travel to one's chosen destination for exercise or leisure should be on foot or cycle if possible.
There are exceptions to the "stay local" advice for people with specific health conditions. Examples are given such as autism or people who are wheelchair users who may need to travel further to access a suitable place.
Another reason to remain local is to make it less likely that someone will need toilet facilities while away from home.
Nicola Sturgeon said last Thursday and on Monday that she would consider seeking to put guidelines into legislation if it seems that easing restrictions risks an upsurge in the virus.
Police Scotland said they would have difficulty enforcing a 5 mile limit if it was legislation.
Scottish Government held an online public consultation in May. Framework document on moving from lockdown to normality in 4 phases. Friday 29th May was first day of Phase 1.
More consultation between Westminster government and English local authorities before announcing changes in England may have been helpful.
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More consultation between Westminster government and English local authorities before announcing changes in England may have been helpful.
I think that is the problem, they are announcing things before consulting people. Also they are allowing things to be leaked or announcing them too far in advance. There really shouldn't have been so many people meeting in non household groups over the weekend, as it didn't start until yesterday. Yet because it was announce on Thursday people though, "Oh well, what difference does a couple of days make?"
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More consultation between Westminster government and English local authorities before announcing changes in England may have been helpful.
I think that is the problem, they are announcing things before consulting people. Also they are allowing things to be leaked or announcing them too far in advance. There really shouldn't have been so many people meeting in non household groups over the weekend, as it didn't start until yesterday. Yet because it was announce on Thursday people though, "Oh well, what difference does a couple of days make?"
I agree with you , Groom - but I don't think we can blame people for that, because so little has changed. The alert level has not gone down from 4 to 3, the test and trace system is not fully operational, daily cases are still high and the R is close to 1 in places ( ref Sir Patrick Vallance) so the '5 pillars' we have been brainwashed with every day for weeks have not been met, in spite of Boris telling us they have. We can see with our own eyes that they haven't. And now they've stopped showing that slide in the daily briefing. From supporting the government's efforts for many weeks, I'm afraid I've become very sceptical, quite disillusioned and disappointed at being treated like idiots.
For my own protection I shall carry on taking the same precautions as usual as far as possible - as far as I can see, although cases are relatively low in my area, I could still catch the virus and it would be just as lethal as 6 weeks ago.
Pat
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Yes - rather like Russian roulette!!
I had to go to the Post Office yesterday to get a form for my OH to renew his driving licence as online renewal isn't possible. The wonderful woman who runs the Post Office was off ill. Fingers crossed it isn't the virus and she is OK :-\
Kay
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The Telegraph headline:
Exclusive: Boris Johnson takes back control of coronavirus crisis with Downing Street shake-up
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/02/exclusive-boris-johnson-takes-back-control-coronavirus-crisis/?utm_content=telegraph&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1591168947
You can read the first para if you don't have a sub.
Ummmm.....
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That's all we ever do in this country: set up endless committees so that things can be kicked into the long grass and nothing effective ever gets done e.g Grenfell.
Lots of empty vessels sitting around a table, drinking their tea and eating their biscuits, full of sound and fury but signifying nothing.
I think our blessed government has now gone back to the 'herd immunity' approach in order that business can get going again. Perhaps the figures in their bank accounts are turning red at a rate of knots. Of course, they'll deny it - hence the committees.
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The number of actual people tested per day has been missing from the PHE website for almost two weeks now. Yesterday and today the presenters of the BBC Breakfast programme asked whichever government minister they had on that day to answer that question and they burbled on about the track and trace system, which was irrelevant. The presenter wanted the number 10 days or so ago, before track and trace started. Looking at PHE site the number of tests sent out each day is 40 - 50K. Who's got them all, I wonder. I thought maybe it was institutions like care homes, but reports a couple of days ago were saying that a high proportion of staff still had not been tested. Now they've started counting the antibody test kits and the target has changed to capacity not actual tests.
Lizzie I had an email the other day from an English friend, which said in part:
Son went off to do his work with the Army last weekend (finally)…he is part of a mobile testing unit going around Hampshire (neighbouring county) offering “self-testing” kits ….which are handed back to the soldiers for the labs.
Don’t know how widespread it is.
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This last bit I could see is interesting, Gadget:
"Tory MPs said the changes could weaken the influence of chief adviser Dominic Cummings – who was heavily criticised for a 260-mile trip during lockdown – and allow Mr Johnson to tighten his grip on the fight against the pandemic after being treated in intensive care for the virus...."
Has he done it not to lose face? He backed DC so vehemently that he would find it hard to back track and sack him - is this a way out?
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back track and sack
Is this the new tracing system ???
;D
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back track and sack
Is this the new tracing system ???
;D
;D ;D
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There are reports of Alok Sharma, the Business Secretary, felt ill when speaking in the Commons today and has been tested for C-19. The areas where he'd been has been deep cleaned.
Maybe the easing of the lockdown might have been a little too early.
I shall keep to the original guidelines for the time being.
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Well if they have to go into quarantine, excepting those who have had the disease, the Prime Minister will be taking charge as he promised today.
I hope he doesn’t have it though.
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There are reports of Alok Sharma, the Business Secretary, felt ill when speaking in the Commons today and has been tested for C-19. The areas where he'd been has been deep cleaned.
Ed Milliband, his opposite number, noticed that he looked unwell and poured him a glass of water. It's fortunate that Government and Opposition benches are 2 swords' length apart or Ed might get a message from track 'n' trace telling him to enter quarantine.
There has been a suggestion that shouting by MPs should be discouraged as it increases the risk of sprayed droplets travelling further. Waving order papers around while shouting is likely to increase the effect. I offer no evidence for the latter, just common -sense.
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Anger about visitors messing up the countryside. "Farming Today this Week" Radio 4 this morning. Includes a polite request from Duchess of Rutland who said more than an hour a day is spent clearing up. Another contributor remarked that advice jumped from "Stay at home" to "Go anywhere". Some comments contain bleeps, the speaker was so angry.
A Yorkshireman has expressed himself eloquently. Yorkshire Prose @YorkshireProse
There is a campaign to ban sale of disposable barbecues and to outlaw barbecues in public places such as parks, wildlife reserves and moorland.
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Just been on a family zoom call and a friend of one our family has a daughter at uni in England but they live in Cardiff. They have been today to empty the uni room at the request of the uni and received an email from the Welsh department of education which they had to take with them to prove they were on an approved journey. The good thing was apparently the motorway services were open and so were the loos!
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I was wondering the other day, if everyone has to wear a mask, will it lead to a rise in the crime rate? At the moment you cant go into a bank or most shops wearing things like balaclavas or a hood, but if we have to wear masks they can't stop people. Will it lead to more robberies and shoplifting and muggings?
Also what about phones (like mine) which use face recognition to unlock them and apps? I tried it by pulling my teeshirt up over my nose and it didn't recognise me. That means people will have to go back to putting in the password or code. As a lot of people use their phones via face recognition to make contactless payment it could cause problems.
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There has been a suggestion that shouting by MPs should be discouraged as it increases the risk of sprayed droplets travelling further. Waving order papers around while shouting is likely to increase the effect. I offer no evidence for the latter, just common -sense.
Unfortunately those who watched the MPs queuing to vote the other day could quickly draw the conclusion they totally lack common-sense and are unable to follow simply instructions.
Why should MPs be treated any differently from their constituents who have to queue round a supermarket car park to shop?
A clear case of them and us.
Yes I do realise the queuing slows down the vote and having to be present in parliament excludes a number from voting, but a lot of democratic procedure has suffered also.
The fact that MPs are not present to listen to, and take part in the debates being just one.
Perhaps it is time for a complete shake up of the system abolish the party system and have each MP responsible only to the views of her/his electorate, rather than acting like sheep and following the dictates of a political party.
Cheers
Guy
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There has been a suggestion that shouting by MPs should be discouraged as it increases the risk of sprayed droplets travelling further. Waving order papers around while shouting is likely to increase the effect. I offer no evidence for the latter, just common -sense.
Unfortunately those who watched the MPs queuing to vote the other day could quickly draw the conclusion they totally lack common-sense and are unable to follow simply instructions.
Why should MPs be treated any differently from their constituents who have to queue round a supermarket car park to shop?
A clear case of them and us.
Yes I do realise the queuing slows down the vote and having to be present in parliament excludes a number from voting, but a lot of democratic procedure has suffered also.
The fact that MPs are not present to listen to, and take part in the debates being just one.
Perhaps it is time for a complete shake up of the system abolish the party system and have each MP responsible only to the views of her/his electorate, rather than acting like sheep and following the dictates of a political party.
Cheers
Guy
Tradition, I know, but having to leave the room to queue for voting seems very outdated. The time taken, and in this current situation the risks taken, seem out of proportion. When Brexit (anyone remember when that was all that was talked about in the Commons?) was debated, one day they were in an out every half hour or so, the voting took about10 seconds, the other 29 minutes and 30 seconds were taken up by
them walking out and back in again. Or so it seemed.
In this day and age you would think there might be such a thing as electronic voting.
The Whip might have more of a problem, knowing who their MPs had voted for, but that might not be a bad thing either. Or perhaps the keypads could be individually traced to MPs.
I don't fully understand how Parliament works, and have no particular desire to find out, but so many of the things they do seem heavily steeped in tradition, and inappropriate for 21st century.
Regards Margaret
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Perhaps it is time for a complete shake up of the system abolish the party system and have each MP responsible only to the views of her/his electorate, rather than acting like sheep and following the dictates of a political party.
Yes let's go back to the good old days of rotten boroughs and lack of accountability; of powerful people backing puppet politicians to represent their views rather than those of the electorate; of parliamentary seats being given in return for favours. Of politicians being only from the wealthy classes because the ordinary person doesn't have the money or clout to stand a chance against a rich and well-funded opponent. Sounds like an interesting way forward and I am sure in no way would that end in chaos and mutiny. But just in case it does I'll keep my knitting handy....
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It would rip yer knittin Greensleeves! ;D Folk in masks asking how you're doing? like, who the hell are ye? ;D
Skoosh.
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What about those who rely on lip-reading. I don't, but recently on "Casualty" and "Eastenders" there have been characters who cannot use hearing-aids and rely on seeing the person speaking.
Some people look hostile when you can only see their eyes, or is it because we now see everyone as a Covd19 threat? I ventured into a shop yesterday and it was horrible the way eveyone glared as I came out.
rayard.
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A friend of mine is making masks to be used for people who need to lip read, they look a bit like a photo frame with the centre looking like clear acetate, lips can be seen for lip readers
Louisa Maud
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Perhaps it is time for a complete shake up of the system abolish the party system and have each MP responsible only to the views of her/his electorate, rather than acting like sheep and following the dictates of a political party.
Yes let's go back to the good old days of rotten boroughs and lack of accountability; of powerful people backing puppet politicians to represent their views rather than those of the electorate; of parliamentary seats being given in return for favours. Of politicians being only from the wealthy classes because the ordinary person doesn't have the money or clout to stand a chance against a rich and well-funded opponent. Sounds like an interesting way forward and I am sure in no way would that end in chaos and mutiny. But just in case it does I'll keep my knitting handy....
On the contrary it puts the power in the hands of the electorate rather than the political parties. If your MP did not vote according to their constituents liking the next election he/she would be out of a job. He/she would not be hiding behind the party line excuse that so many claim.
You are the only one suggesting favours and corruption.
Cheers
Guy
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Where are The Chartists when we need them?
One man one vote.
Universal suffrage ( only for men in those days)
Secret ballots.
Yearly general elections.
Abolishment of land ownership necessary for MPs
Equality in size of constituencies.
Etc.
There ought to be more of it about!
I do remember the first Socialist Government after the war, Bevan,Bevin,
Morrison, Attlee, etc.
The inception of the NHS , such a change.
I really though I would own my own train! ::)
But at ten years old.-
The times might well be a’changing!
Viktoria.
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Not being political but a very practical question- how do they do the actual voting in Scotland ? When they are on the tv, I'm always intrigued by the wooden 'desks' they have with the elaborate metal 'aerials' . The flat bit of wood on the top looks like it should be a lectern stand for a laptop but it's clearly part of the aesthetic and there's power points and usb things underneath. Seems very practical but I don't know how they do their actual voting. Thanks.
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@ Candleflame, they push a button! ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Perhaps it is time for a complete shake up of the system abolish the party system and have each MP responsible only to the views of her/his electorate, rather than acting like sheep and following the dictates of a political party.
On the contrary it puts the power in the hands of the electorate rather than the political parties. If your MP did not vote according to their constituents liking the next election he/she would be out of a job.
These ideas have a superficial appeal, and in my younger days I might even have put forward a similar argument myself, but I don't think they would work. A parish council of a dozen or so members might run very well with no party organisation and all candidates standing as Independents, but try to imagine what would happen in a national parliament with over 600 members.
First, how would anything ever be decided? Every member, in order to demonstrate that they were representing the views of their constituents, might potentially want, or even have a right, to have an input in every debate and decision. How long would be needed for that to take place, and for the views to be distilled into some kind of consensus?
One decision they would be required to make would be who would occupy the posts of Prime Minister and other ministers of state. In voting for their local representatives, no-one would have a clue who would be in line for such office, so what would happen? Presumably out of those elected, a few would put their names forward, and then either the whole country would have another election to decide who should get the job (when they know little or nothing about them or what policies they might adopt), or else the elected representatives themselves would make the decision. Is that what you want?
Second, it might conceivably occur to some of the 600+ members that they had broadly similar views on a range of issues, and it could therefore make sense for them to work together to promote these. Gradually the informal gathering of like minds becomes a more formal grouping, and before you know it you have a political party. How would you prevent this happening, and if you wanted to, at what point would you draw the line?
So although this sounds good to begin with, it would be either totally unworkable or hideously cumbersome and expensive, and I don't think it could last long in its initial form.
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OK! I know it's a much smaller place, but . . .
Tynwald, the Isle of Man Parliament has no political parties to speak of.
There is Lib Vannin and the Douglas Labour Party, but I don't think they have any Members of the House of Keys (MHKs).
The Chief Minister is elected by the MHKs, and he forms his own Legislative Council to help him govern.
By-and-large, it seems to work! ;D
No positive Covid cases for 18 days.
No Covid patients in hospital.
Borders still closed ;D
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Maybe Guy should move to the Isle of Man then, Kevin :)
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Maybe Guy should move to the Isle of Man then, Kevin :)
Not on your nelly!
Our borders are closed! We'll continue to keep the (potentially) virus ridden Brits out; thank you ;D ;D ;D
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@ Candleflame, they push a button! ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.
Thanks skoosh.
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The death statistics (55 today) seem to be going down day by day (assuming they don't suddenly find a new lot that they've accidentally overlooked) so things are finally looking more hopeful.
After a weekend of demos consisting of thousands of people in close proximity, preceded by a weekend of crowds on beaches etc, the virus has almost been 'challenged' to do its worst and we should discover in a couple of weeks if the figures go up again or if they remain low. If, hopefully, the latter we should have cause for optimism; if the former- well, god knows.
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Maybe Guy should move to the Isle of Man then, Kevin :)
Not on your nelly!
Our borders are closed! We'll continue to keep the (potentially) virus ridden Brits out; thank you ;D ;D ;D
For 'Brits' please replace with 'English', Kevin; and I can confirm that Wales is closed too. I suggest we start talks soon about the formation of The Celtic Alliance, although I have been having preliminary talks with certain areas of Lancashire that qualify. Associate status will be offered to like-minded areas, naturally.
Sorry Guy, you're on your own mate. ;D ;D ;D
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Some of the old Welsh pedigree books show one of my lines going back to the Kings of Man :D
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Maybe Guy should move to the Isle of Man then, Kevin :)
Not on your nelly!
Our borders are closed! We'll continue to keep the (potentially) virus ridden Brits out; thank you ;D ;D ;D
For 'Brits' please replace with 'English', Kevin; and I can confirm that Wales is closed too. I suggest we start talks soon about the formation of The Celtic Alliance, although I have been having preliminary talks with certain areas of Lancashire that qualify. Associate status will be offered to like-minded areas, naturally.
Sorry Guy, you're on your own mate. ;D ;D ;D
Apologies, GS ;D
We only have had travel links to England; seasonal to Ireland (both North & Republic) and Scotland.
The planned ferry service to Holyhead never happened! ::)
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Well, Kevin, once we have formed the Celtic Alliance (Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and parts of Lancashire etc) we will have to think about reorganising the travel routes. Perhaps a coracle service between Ynys Mon to you might be a start.... ;D
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Some of the old Welsh pedigree books show one of my lines going back to the Kings of Man :D
That sounds interesting Gadget. I've been fascinated talking to people on here via PM/skype recently, regarding the Viking influence twixt Ireland and Wales, IoM and western Lancashire.
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The death statistics (55 today) seem to be going down day by day (assuming they don't suddenly find a new lot that they've accidentally overlooked) so things are finally looking more hopeful.
Unfortunately numbers are always low on a Monday due to not being reported over the weekend. Fingers crossed they aren't high tomorrow. The fact there were no deaths in Scotland, Northern Ireland and perhaps more importantly London, does look hopeful.
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Well, Kevin, once we have formed the Celtic Alliance (Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and parts of Lancashire etc) we will have to think about reorganising the travel routes. Perhaps a coracle service between Ynys Mon to you might be a start.... ;D
Flag available at Amazon and all good flag suppliers!
Also an 8 nation version - with Asturias and Galicia added ;D
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Nice one, Kevin! Gwledydd celtaidd am byth :)
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I suggest we start talks soon about the formation of The Celtic Alliance, although I have been having preliminary talks with certain areas of Lancashire that qualify. Associate status will be offered to like-minded areas, naturally.
What's this about "certain areas of Lancashire that qualify"? I'll have you know that Real Lancashire is the whole of Lancashire pre 1974 carve-up. I'm happy for Lancashire to re-join the kingdom of Reghed and for Reghed to join the Celtic Alliance. I know only sufficient Cumbric to count sheep but am willing to learn more.
The North-East region of England might have an assembly now if it weren't for a Dominic somebody practising his techniques in how to persuade people to vote no in referendums. Northumbria could have had associate status with the Celtic Alliance.
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"Nice one Kevin!"
Deoch Slainte'
Skoosh.
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Back to the subject -
After the announcement that the government are giving up on their ambitions to get primary schools back before the summer holidays, I'm still wondering what is so sacrosanct about these summer holidays as far as schools are concerned?
I can see that a lot of schools couldn't physically cope with the distancing rules at the moment but, given that we are now already in June, what I don't get is why they can't make plans to bring forward the starting date for the autumn term from September, maybe by a month?
Its not as if many people are going to get a foreign holiday this year so that would give them time for a week or so's holiday in this country, should the virus statistics continue to look optimistic. Most children will have had a good month off school already (yes, I know there has been some home schooling but probably only for children of people who can afford the time and/or are even motivated to bother.)
Get them back at the beginning of August, virus willing.
I also see lots and lots of problems ahead re teachers grading students' GCSE and A level results. Parents will undoubtedly be up in arms if they think their child has been badly done to - and teachers will be accused (rightly or wrongly) of favouritism. They are only human and will have those pupils they like and those they don't.
Its too late now - it would be unfair to suddenly confront pupils with exams they thought weren't going to take place but I really don't see why GCSEs couldn't be taken in the autumn term - if the child has left school they can surely return to sit a few exams? A levels are a bit more tricky but it could work if new employers allowed a few days release for taking the exams and if universities and colleges exercised a bit of flexibility.
We are so entrenched educationally in this county (and in a lot of other ways) that successive governments never manage to think 'outside the box'. I'm no particular fan of Michael Gove but at least he tried when he was Secretary of State for Education.
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Autumn term for Scottish Schools begins in 2 months time, in August.
Mark Drayford, Welsh FM on radio now. Reckons plan for English schools was too ambitious. Welsh plan is for all pupils to have 3 visits to schools in a month.
He's talking now about face coverings. Behaviour of people has to be considered. Don't want people to get a false sense of security about face coverings - their effect is marginal. Most important is staying home if you think you may have symptoms.
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Face coverings are to protect other people from your virus laden exhalations, thereby reducing the spread of the virus. Although they do offer some protection for the wearer it is not that efficient unless you have a P3 type. Though, the problem with valved type respirators is that the valve allows a flow of unfiltered exhalations out. OK for the wearer but not ideal when the raison d'être for wearing masks is to protect the public from carriers.
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I have every sympathy with teachers who will have children returning to school after months and months at home, some being unruly with parents and running riot, saw a few myself when out locally today riding on bikes making pests of themselves when I would assume they would be doing something more productive with their time, like school work, I can see some pupils will be streets ahead of those who have not put their time to good us.
The quicker they get back to school the better for the over 11 year olds
Louisa Maud
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Autumn term for Scottish Schools begins in 2 months time, in August.
Just for those who aren't familiar with Scottish school terms - Autumn term usually starts in mid-August and Summer term ends very late June - early July.
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For your information Jillruss, here in Wales it was mooted to have an early start to the summer holidays and re-start schools earlier than normal, in August instead of September. However, the idea seemed to be discounted almost out of hand and withdrawn.
Denmark seems to be a prime example of how to re-start schools. Perhaps we should follow their example.
:)
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Most teachers I know want to get back to school and back to normal, the thing which is stopping this is the social distancing. Due to the size of most classrooms, the maximum number of children they could fit in would be 10 - so for your average class you need two extra rooms. That is why in primary schools years 2,3,4 and 5 can't return yet, there just isn't the room. So getting schools to return in August, unless the social distancing has reduced, still wouldn't be possible and some people doubt if it can even be managed for September. It may be a case that children will have to attend alternate weeks, which will be hard for parents who have to work.
As schools closed in March, I still can't see why those taking GCSEs and A levels weren't allowed to take them. The pupils could have been spread across all the empty classrooms and halls, so would have been well distanced.
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https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/320xn/p05lycr3.jpg
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For your information Jillruss, here in Wales it was mooted to have an early start to the summer holidays and re-start schools earlier than normal, in August instead of September. However, the idea seemed to be discounted almost out of hand and withdrawn.
Denmark seems to be a prime example of how to re-start schools. Perhaps we should follow their example.
:)
How has Denmark organised the re-starting of schools?
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For your information Jillruss, here in Wales it was mooted to have an early start to the summer holidays and re-start schools earlier than normal, in August instead of September. However, the idea seemed to be discounted almost out of hand and withdrawn.
Denmark seems to be a prime example of how to re-start schools. Perhaps we should follow their example.
:)
How has Denmark organised the re-starting of schools?
From what I have seen reported on the news, very well. Everything appears to be going well, properly "socially distanced", happy children, happy parents happy teachers and no upsurge in cases of the virus. What more could anyone ask for?.
:)
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Get the kids back to school asap, forget social distancing, all the kids on our local green and the kids at the nearby primary school who are still there are certainly not social distancing.
Just taken our dog for its night walk, 10 teenage boys sat on the green in a huddle, another six sat on a bench 200m away.
If there is to be a second peak, better in the Summer than into October and Autumn.
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As far as I read, a headteacher in Denmark explained that only certain younger pupils were returning and as schools in Denmark are primary + 'junior secondary' on the same site - with no secondary pupils returning, there was plenty of space for children to be socially distanced - different 'bubbles' in different classrooms.
This was about 3 or 4 weeks ago. I don't know what the situation is now. The Danish school pictured was a beautiful large modern building with plenty of outside space, quite unlike our Victorian village primary with 3 inside classrooms & 3 or 4 (not sure if one is a double) mobiles which occupy the whole former playground, leaving a very small field area. The daycare/nursery occupies the same site.
And the teachers I know have been working very hard to keep the online learning going, ringing and visiting the pupils as well as being in school for children of key workers and the vulnerable ones. In my teaching career it was hard enough to set work if you knew you were going to be absent, say for a couple of days. I can't imagine how many hours they have spent devising interesting online lessons which are manageable for young children and parents who are trying to support them as well as maybe do their own work. I take my hat off to them, they deserve a break in the summer.
Pat
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I think that there may be other factors which make Denmark a model for actions
Denmark
Confirmed cases 11.962
Recovered 10.792
Deaths 593
England (I have used that, as the proposal is about English schools)
Confirmed Cases 150,000
Recovered -
Deaths 29, 673
It is clearly a very different situation.
The English model seems to be based on the Danish model used in the beginning. The R rate then in Denmark was 0.6-0.9
In my area over the weekend, it was confirmed by scientists to be over 1.0 but this was denied by the Health Secretary yesterday.
Today, my relative’s school took in Year 6 children. Only half the cohort wanted to return. They are in two groups occupying 2 rooms.
If the remainder of Year 6 return, that will be another two rooms.
The key workers’ children, who have been in school all the time, occupy a further two classrooms.
That is following government guidelines. The beginning and end of the sessions is staggered so that the groups and parents don’t mix. Lunch is eaten in the classroom and is sandwiches provided by the school.
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Why is this country stuck on the 2 metre distance rule? As far as I have read, other countries are observing 1 or, at the most, 1.5 metres. Why do we have to be different?
I know 1 metre difference doesn't sound much but when you're calculating a social distancing radius for a room full of kids, its a hell of a lot.
Llwyd, have you any idea why the early start for autumn term was dismissed so readily in Wales? Teachers or politicians?
If this country sticks to the 2 metre rule, I can't see anything changing when we do get to September, unless of course we get lucky and the virus has gone by then. I was feeling optimistic after a couple of days with death numbers in two digits but I see we were back up into the 300s today, though I've thought for a long time that these statistics are so hit and miss as to be misleading and pretty useless as a measurement of what's going on.
I agree with Biggles50, kids themselves don't seem to bother when they're socialising and, apart from a few exceptions, the virus has pretty much left children alone. The government has done such a good job in frightening the hell out of all of us when it was probably only a small portion of us who needed to take care.
Nothing this government has done in the last couple of months has made much sense to me - and now we have people coming into the country being asked to self isolate for 14 days when a) most of them won't do it ; b) its virtually impossible to police, and c) its 3 months too late. We have a track and trace system which, as far as I can make out, is not functioning, and now this face mask nonsense when its pretty much accepted that they don't do much good and will probably cause more harm than good by emboldening people who think they're safe if they wear one.
We don't seem to be able to deal with anything sensibly anymore.
i think we should all move to the Isle of Man - that'll teach them for being so damn smug!!
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In Denmark I am pretty sure school starting age is six or even seven.
Ours us four.
At that stage of their lives that is a big difference.
Better able to keep distances, better immunity, etc etc.
I don’t think I would send a four year old of mine to school.
I know ,people have to work and other factors, easy to say but very difficult to know what to do for the best.
Viktoria.
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One thing about the online schooling taking place at the moment is just how much co-ordinating of lesson content is actually taking place?
That is, is each school / academy / district doing their own thing?
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Messages all the time re testing, but no info as to where tests are being done.
Would you have to travel,on public transport given that you get tested if you suspect you have CoronaVirus.?
If you don’t drive how else?
The mind boggles.
Daughter in Suffolk, as far as she is aware there is a testing centre in Cambridge, not aware of anything nearer.
Not to say there isn’t but information not readily available.
Mind you she has just re opened a section of her business so has enough to think of .
Viktoria.
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Why is this country stuck on the 2 metre distance rule? As far as I have read, other countries are observing 1 or, at the most, 1.5 metres. Why do we have to be different?
I know 1 metre difference doesn't sound much but when you're calculating a social distancing radius for a room full of kids, its a hell of a lot.
With regards the distance of two metres it has been explained on various occasions why this was chosen rather than 1 metre.
Here is the BBC version by David Shukman Science editor -
"In a study published in the medical journal The Lancet, scientists evaluated recent research into how the coronavirus can spread.
They conclude that keeping at least 1m from other people could be the best way to limit the chances of infection.
The risk of being infected is estimated to be 13% within 1m, but only 3% beyond that distance.
And the study says that for every extra metre of distance up to 3m, the risk is further reduced by half."
However that is only part of the equation as not only is distance important but also the longer you spend in close proximity with an infected person, the bigger the risk.
Scientists advising the UK government say that spending six seconds at a distance of 1m from someone is the same as spending one minute at a distance of 2m.
Being exposed to someone coughing is riskier. Being 2m away from a cough carries the same risk as someone talking to you for 30 minutes at the same distance.contact.
If that research is accurate then the compromise Canada, Spain and the UK take is sensible as it takes into account variations due to time & distance.
Cheers
Guy
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I also see lots and lots of problems ahead re teachers grading students' GCSE and A level results. Parents will undoubtedly be up in arms if they think their child has been badly done to - and teachers will be accused (rightly or wrongly) of favouritism. They are only human and will have those pupils they like and those they don't.
Its too late now - it would be unfair to suddenly confront pupils with exams they thought weren't going to take place but I really don't see why GCSEs couldn't be taken in the autumn term - if the child has left school they can surely return to sit a few exams?
According to the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52944057):
Any pupils unhappy with their grades will be able to sit the actual exam in October or November.
Why is this country stuck on the 2 metre distance rule? As far as I have read, other countries are observing 1 or, at the most, 1.5 metres. Why do we have to be different?
I know 1 metre difference doesn't sound much but when you're calculating a social distancing radius for a room full of kids, its a hell of a lot.
I suspect one reason might be that however law-abiding the English claim to be, we often have a tendency to do our own thing, ignore rules we don't like and generally push the boundaries. So with a 1 metre rule, people are likely to end up more like 60cm apart; with 2 metres we might see around 1.5 metres. It's less effective than 2 metres, but an awful lot better than 60cm.
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Guy, I respect your right to have an opinion which is different from mine but I'd be ever so grateful if you'd stop being quite so patronising.
I almost felt as if you'd donned your gown and mortarboard, before you started your last supercilious post. Despite rumours to the contrary, I'm not a complete moron and I did know the 'history' of the 2 metre rule. I was questioning its efficacy.
Did you used to be a teacher or lecturer? I always find most of them tend to talk down to you.
Cheers,
Jill
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Apparently the distance also depends on your position. So if you are talking to someone when you are facing, them 2 metres is considered the safest, however if you are standing next to each other and facing the same way, 1 metre is probably quite safe. So it could well be possible to have children back at school, all facing the front - rather than in groups, sitting a metre apart.
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Jillruss, your post regarding the 2 metre distance rule is absolutely spot on. If we keep that rule the economy will be completely trashed with tourism/hospitality/heritage pretty much totally wiped out. The implications for the physical and mental health of the nation of mass unemployment is truly frightening. We are already seeing many additional deaths caused not by Covid 19 but by the Government's policy response. Sadly our politicians seem to be suffering from tunnel vision in which they are concerned only about Covid 19 while remaining oblivious to the immense damage that their policies are wreaking. It is even worse in Scotland where I live where an economically illiterate First Minister seems to be determined to ensure that we remain the least free nation in Europe.
As well as an unemployment tsunami about to hit us I am very concerned that we are likely to see a sharp increase in crime.
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Guy, I respect your right to have an opinion which is different from mine but I'd be ever so grateful if you'd stop being quite so patronising.
I almost felt as if you'd donned your gown and mortarboard, before you started your last supercilious post. Despite rumours to the contrary, I'm not a complete moron and I did know the 'history' of the 2 metre rule. I was questioning its efficacy.
Did you used to be a teacher or lecturer? I always find most of them tend to talk down to you.
Cheers,
Jill
Jillruss, you asked "Why is this country stuck on the 2 metre distance rule?" so I answered that question directly.
The problem with shorter distances is as Arthurk mentioned in post reply178 "So with a 1 metre rule, people are likely to end up more like 60cm apart; with 2 metres we might see around 1.5 metres. It's less effective than 2 metres, but an awful lot better than 60cm."
This is frequently displayed in supermarket visits the "intelligent" population queue at 2 metres waiting to go into a supermarket then as soon as the are inside the morons are pushing past each other with no space in between.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy, I respect your right to have an opinion which is different from mine but I'd be ever so grateful if you'd stop being quite so patronising.
I almost felt as if you'd donned your gown and mortarboard, before you started your last supercilious post. Despite rumours to the contrary, I'm not a complete moron and I did know the 'history' of the 2 metre rule. I was questioning its efficacy.
Did you used to be a teacher or lecturer? I always find most of them tend to talk down to you.
Cheers,
Jill
Hi
Looking at Guy's "Reply #176" I wouldn't say using another source was Guy's opinion.
When people speak they also project small saliva droplets ...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/health/coronavirus-infections.html
Even though I swallow before speaking, I can regularly see an odd tiny saliva droplet on my Tablet screen after speaking (even though I did not see the droplet project in my sight).
Of course if someone coughs or sneezes 2 metres won't be any good as sneeze droplets can travel up to about 8 metres.
Stifling a sneeze can be dangerous too causing ruptures in the brain and like the person here in the throat ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42687970
As children our Mother (now in her 80s) wouldn't let us leave home without a hankerchief and I feel undressed if I don't have one in my pocket today.
Mark
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Apparently, the Covid-19 that came to the UK came from Italy, Spain or France :D Not China!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52993734
Just goes to prove: Border lockdown should have happened much, much earlier.
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I walk for at least an hour every day and the amount of people who make no attempt to keep even a metre distance from you is almost unbeliveable. Next week when more shops open I have no intention of visiting them. I dislike queueing at the best of times but to have to queue to get into a shopping centre and then for a shop puts me right off even trying to get in. Any purchases for clothes, books etc. will be made online and it is difficult to not think that we are going to witness the death throes of the high street in the next few months.
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Most teachers I know want to get back to school and back to normal, the thing which is stopping this is the social distancing. Due to the size of most classrooms, the maximum number of children they could fit in would be 10 - so for your average class you need two extra rooms.
Plus extra teachers and classroom assistants.
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I walk for at least an hour every day and the amount of people who make no attempt to keep even a metre distance from you is almost unbeliveable. Next week when more shops open I have no intention of visiting them. I dislike queueing at the best of times but to have to queue to get into a shopping centre and then for a shop puts me right off even trying to get in. Any purchases for clothes, books etc. will be made online and it is difficult to not think that we are going to witness the death throes of the high street in the next few months.
Yes, I noticed this today whilst food shopping.
We decided previously not to get into any discussion and keep out of their way, after hearing about speech droplet transmission investigations.
If they got irate or raised excitable voices, could you imagine if they were Covid infected (some don't show or have any Covid-19 symptoms either).
Mark
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https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/images/ic/320xn/p05lycr3.jpg
Reminds me of pictures of chapels in Victorian prisons when every prisoner was isolated.
Prisons in Britain overcrowded. Very difficult to manage in an epidemic. There has been a very limited release of low-risk prisoners. Several prisoners and some prison staff have died from coronavirus. Many prisoners have mental health problems which will be made worse in the current situation.
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Apparently, the Covid-19 that came to the UK came from Italy, Spain or France :D Not China!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52993734
Just goes to prove: Border lockdown should have happened much, much earlier.
It would not have dared to come had we not been in the EU!!!
It knew it could creep in via unmanned border posts ,etc etc.
Had every right to be here and could stay as long as it wanted to!
It knew it would get past that new aircraft carrier with no aircraft to speak of swanning up and down the channel.
Border posts that advertise when they are shut were no barrier.
It could slip under the gates.
No had Brexit happened,or better still had we stayed out or come out we may well have been Covid 19 free.
There is the balanced opinion of one who thinks this topic needed a bit of daft levity.
The thing is no one can totally prove those insane theories of mine are wrong, ;D > ;D ;D
Guess who.
P.S.my post was being penned before the above from MaidenStone was posted.
was posted.
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I disagree.
IMHO yours is NOT a balanced opinion!
(I thought RootsChat was a politics free zone?)
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No mention of how it got to Spain, Italy and France.
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Some people do talk rubbish,
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I was feeling optimistic after a couple of days with death numbers in two digits but I see we were back up into the 300s today, though I've thought for a long time that these statistics are so hit and miss as to be misleading and pretty useless as a measurement of what's going on.
Nothing this government has done in the last couple of months has made much sense to me - and now we have people coming into the country being asked to self isolate for 14 days when a) most of them won't do it ; b) its virtually impossible to police, and c) its 3 months too late.
Daily death numbers announced at press briefings give only a partial picture. They are usually lower at weekends anyway. Scotland's was 7 yesterday after 2 consecutive days with nil deaths reported. Nicola Sturgeon explained that Tuesday's figure was usually higher because it was a catch-up from the weekend when fewer deaths are reported.
ONS weekly statistics are more reliable to see trends. There's a time lag with publication. Percentage of death certificates which mention Covid-19 has decreased.
Matt Hancock announced last week that total deaths had passed 40,000. That figure was reached in May by another method of counting.
Quarantine for arrivals: you left off d) when most countries have a lower number of cases than UK.
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Youngtug, my post was intentionally daft,ridiculous, just to lighten things up a bit.
No intention of causing offence ,just a laugh, I hope others see it for what it was meant to be.
I did not imagine anyone would take it seriously.
.Viktoria.
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@ Kev, a breath of Fresh Ayre as usual! ;D
Skoosh.
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(I thought RootsChat was a politics free zone?)
You can’t have been reading the postings on this board over the last few weeks then ;D
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Surely it's impossible for a forum on this subject to be completely non political?
Other subjects maybe.
Regards Margaret
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Youngtug, my post was intentionally daft,ridiculous, just to lighten things up a bit.
No intention of causing offence ,just a laugh, I hope others see it for what it was meant to be.
I did not imagine anyone would take it seriously.
.Viktoria.
Take no notice, Viktoria, some people just don't have a sense of humour!
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No mention of how it got to Spain, Italy and France.
I wondered at the time why there were so many cases in Italy. It seemed to have taken hold there quickly.
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Surely it's impossible for a forum on this subject to be completely non political?
Other subjects maybe.
Key decisions are taken by politicians. Those decisions may affect: whether we live or die; what happens to the economy; education; people's mental & physical health &c.
We are told to abide by those decisions. The U.K. has been governed under special powers for almost 3 months. People have been stopped by police, questioned and fined for breaching rules.
The situation is complex and constantly changing. We need to keep ourselves informed and understand why & how decisions are taken. Responsibility and common-sense on our part; honesty, clarity, efficiency and accountability from decision makers.
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Surely it's impossible for a forum on this subject to be completely non political?
Other subjects maybe.
Key decisions are taken by politicians. Those decisions may affect: whether we live or die; what happens to the economy; education; people's mental & physical health &c.
We are told to abide by those decisions. The U.K. has been governed under special powers for almost 3 months. People have been stopped by police, questioned and fined for breaching rules.
The situation is complex and constantly changing. We need to keep ourselves informed and understand why & how decisions are taken. Responsibility and common-sense on our part; honesty, clarity, efficiency and accountability from decision makers.
Well put!
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I was going to add to my reply #199:
The special powers (coronavirus) legislation had to be rushed through Parliament without normal scrutiny. Govt wanted it in place for 2 years but accepted 6 months.
Parliament has not been functioning normally for 3 months. A decision taken in Parliament last week, since modified, risked millions of electors being unrepresented.
Local authorities, police, health and other interested bodies who have to put measures into practice and deal with consequences, have complained about lack of prior consultation.
Communication has, at times been unclear and resulted in confusion.
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No mention of how it got to Spain, Italy and France.
I wondered at the time why there were so many cases in Italy. It seemed to have taken hold there quickly.
My husband heard somewhere that Chinese sewers from Wohan go on mass to Milan the weeks before the Milan Fashion Week to make all the last minute alterations. But this could be speculation.
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My husband heard somewhere that Chinese sewers from Wohan go on mass to Milan the weeks before the Milan Fashion Week to make all the last minute alterations. But this could be speculation.
You mean "en masse"? I envisioned Milan churches full of Chinese visitors. :)
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My husband heard somewhere that Chinese sewers from Wohan go on mass to Milan the weeks before the Milan Fashion Week to make all the last minute alterations. But this could be speculation.
You mean "en masse"? I envisioned Milan churches full of Chinese visitors. :)
So did I, but with Chinese sanitary pipes as visitors.
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Same here Mike - I read 'sewers' in the sanitary sense; twas only when I got as far as fashion week that the penny dropped... ;D
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A new post now, as I don't want the importance of this message to be lost. As if we don't have enough problems, we now have this. I always thought the Test & Trace idea of emails and phone calls was a free invitation for all the scammers and phishers. It wasn't hard to work out this kind of thing was going to happen. Be aware, stay safe.
North York’s Police have warned about Covid-related email phishing. If you receive such an email, don’t click the link:
NHS Test and Trace emails
We have seen the first phishing email relating to the Test & Trace service. Notably, the fake email refers to the service as ‘track and trace’. The email advises the recipient that they have been exposed to someone who has tested positive for coronavirus. They are instructed to click on a link in order to find out who that person is and are warned that if they fail to do so within 24 hours, legal action may be taken and their benefits suspended. The email address from which this message is sent is alert@nhs-trackandtrace233-gov.
GS
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Thanks for the heads up.
I had an email the other day purporting to be from TV Licensing offering me free tv licence for a year. I still don't know if it was for real but I very much doubt it - and just deleted it straight away.
These people need to be caught and locked up - or I could think of something far, far worse!
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Same here Mike - I read 'sewers' in the sanitary sense; twas only when I got as far as fashion week that the penny dropped... ;D
So did I - I thought. "That's a long way!"
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A preliminary medical/scientific report apparently shows that people that have blood group A are 45% more susceptible to Covid-19 while those with blood group O are 35% less susceptible.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200603/Blood-group-type-may-affect-susceptibility-to-COVID-19-respiratory-failure.aspx
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That sad fact is interesting, wonder if people of Asian races who have died were of group A,we have lost so many Doctors and Nurses of Asian origin.
I am O positive.
Thanks.
Viktoria.
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American Red Cross;
O-positive:
African-American: 47 percent
Asian: 39 percent
Caucasian: 37 percent
Latino-American: 53 percent
O-negative:
African-American: 4 percent
Asian: 1 percent
Caucasian: 8 percent
Latino-American: 4 percent
A-positive:
African-American: 24 percent
Asian: 27 percent
Caucasian: 33 percent
Latino-American: 29 percent
A-negative:
African-American: 2 percent
Asian: 0.5 percent
Caucasian: 7 percent
Latino-American: 2 percent
B-positive:
African-American: 18 percent
Asian: 25 percent
Caucasian: 9 percent
Latino-American: 9 percent
B-negative:
African-American: 1 percent
Asian: 0.4 percent
Caucasian: 2 percent
Latino-American: 1 percent
AB-positive:
African-American: 4 percent
Asian: 7 percent
Caucasian: 3 percent
Latino-American: 2 percent
AB-negative:
African-American: 0.3 percent
Asian: 0.1 percent
Caucasian: 1 percent
Latino-American: 0.2 percent
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O Positive ditto, so will be first up to the bar! ;D
skoosh.
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https://www.livescience.com/why-covid-19-coronavirus-deadly-for-some-people.html
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A+
Which sounds like top marks but Covid-wise, apparently not.
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See ya Skoosh, mine’s a pint of Drambuie shandy!
( He’s gone white!).Victoria.
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I don't know my blood group.
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My husband heard somewhere that Chinese sewers from Wohan go on mass to Milan the weeks before the Milan Fashion Week to make all the last minute alterations. But this could be speculation.
You mean "en masse"? I envisioned Milan churches full of Chinese visitors. :)
So did I, but with Chinese sanitary pipes as visitors.
Chinese Whispers.
Between us we've come up with a "theory" of how Covid-19 got from China to Italy. Some people would believe our theory.
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Three out of the four of us are A +. The other one doesn't know , as they have a minor condition which means they can't donate blood, so they've never had blood taken for grouping!
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Well my eyesight not being quite up to the small print in Emails ,at first I read it as Sewers from Wigan!
Everything might have been OK had the sewers really hailed from Wigan!
Oh hindsight!
Viktoria.
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I marked you down for a Sweet Sherry Viktoria! ;D
Skoosh.
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From today's IOM Briefing:
Social distancing requirements to disappear from Monday (with some exceptions, such as hospital).
Covid-19 all but eradicated from IoM.
Leisure and hospitality restrictions to be removed sooner rather than later.
Gatherings (2 inside, 30 outside) may change on Monday.
Borders will remain closed - dependent on the UK situation.
Up to individual shops whether they enforce social distancing, or return to "normal"
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From today's IOM Briefing:
Social distancing requirements to disappear from Monday (with some exceptions, such as hospital).
Covid-19 all but eradicated from IoM.
Leisure and hospitality restrictions to be removed sooner rather than later.
Gatherings (2 inside, 30 outside) may change on Monday.
Borders will remain closed - dependent on the UK situation.
Up to individual shops whether they enforce social distancing, or return to "normal"
That’s really good news ;)
I see that there are fewer than 100 Covid-19 patients in hospital in Ireland today.
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Did I just hear correctly that Dido Harding has just said, if you have tested positive, you are to phone them up and give them a list of your contacts ??? ??? ???
I thought that they were supposed to phone up those who had tested positive and they then ask you for your contacts.
What are these 25000 tracers doing?
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From what I read over the weekend, I get the impression that no one's told the tracers what they're supposed to be doing. There was an interview with a lady with lots of experience doing the work but she was still waiting to be contacted - and getting more and more frustrated.
I just hope we don't have to rely on BJ and co to organise our first outing to the local brewery! ;D
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Did I just hear correctly that Dido Harding has just said, if you have tested positive, you are to phone them up and give them a list of your contacts ??? ??? ???
I thought that they were supposed to phone up those who had tested positive and they then ask you for your contacts.
What are these 25000 tracers doing?
Presumably they follow up on the list of contacts.
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Did I just hear correctly that Dido Harding has just said, if you have tested positive, you are to phone them up and give them a list of your contacts ??? ??? ???
I thought that they were supposed to phone up those who had tested positive and they then ask you for your contacts.
What are these 25000 tracers doing?
Presumably they follow up on the list of contacts.
That is not how test, track and tracing is supposed to work. maybe the yjust don't know Public Health methods ::) ::) ::)
I have worked with PH depts and am aware of the correct methods. This seems like a bunch of amateurs.
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PS
My late sister was a Prof in the Dept of Public Health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
Bless her, she would be blowing her top!
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Extract from Press Release:
Independent SAGE analysed the figures released today that showed 8,117 individuals testing positive for Covid-19 between May 28 and June 3 were referred for contact tracing. Only 5,407 (67%) were reached and asked to provide details of recent contacts. ONS surveillance data however suggested that there were at least 23,000 new symptomatic cases during that time period, meaning that only about a quarter of symptomatic cases had been found by the test and trace system.
Matt Hancock said today that 85% of contacts had been traced. This is deeply misleading as it relates only to the 5,407 individuals who were reached by contact tracers and ignores the 75% of new cases that were simply not found.
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Extract from Press Release:
Independent SAGE analysed the figures released today that showed 8,117 individuals testing positive for Covid-19 between May 28 and June 3 were referred for contact tracing. Only 5,407 (67%) were reached and asked to provide details of recent contacts. ONS surveillance data however suggested that there were at least 23,000 new symptomatic cases during that time period, meaning that only about a quarter of symptomatic cases had been found by the test and trace system.
Matt Hancock said today that 85% of contacts had been traced. This is deeply misleading as it relates only to the 5,407 individuals who were reached by contact tracers and ignores the 75% of new cases that were simply not found.
I agree it is misleading, its actually only equates to to around 56% of contacts being traced of those testing positive. So if it is really the case that 75% of infections arent getting tested then that 56% is only about 14ish% of contacts! Long way to go!
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Llwyd, have you any idea why the early start for autumn term was dismissed so readily in Wales? Teachers or politicians?
My understanding is that teachers unions objected in the main, along with some teachers. The proposals were made by the WG. However, objections were accepted by the WG and the plan closed down.
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"ONS surveillance data suggested" - sounds like guess work to me. How did they arrive at that figure?. How many symptomatic/non-symptomatic individuals went for testing?. If 8 thousand plus were tested and found to be positive, it appears that, if the ONS figures are correct, I would suggest, a very large number of symptomatic individuals are not presenting for testing, as they have been asked to.
The system depends on people being tested and, if positive, also depends on them being contactable in order to supply their contacts, who, in turn, should be contactable.
The "independent" SAGE group is highly selective in the wording of its press release and is designed to mislead.
67% of positive testers were traced and then 85% of their contacts were traced, it's quite simple really and not misleading at all, unless, of course, you want to be misled.
I'm left wondering just how the approximately 15 thousand supposed "not traced new" cases, are to be identified, found and tested, if they do not present for testing. The same applies to their contacts. The "independent" SAGE group does not appear to tell us how.
:)
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The fact is that - as most of us are already aware - any UK figures regarding the number of cases is absolute fabrication because no-one has any idea. We also know that if we think we have contracted Covid-19, the advice is to stay at home, not bother the GP, not phone 911 unless we think we are close to death. No wonder people's bodies are being discovered weeks after they have died. I will reiterate: during the Great Plague of 1665, guards were appointed for the houses of the 'locked in' and these guards would go shopping for the occupants, report on their health, summon help if required, and run errands. Not even these services have been offered in 2020 to those who think they have been infected. Such is progress, ladies and gents.
Source: Journal of the Plague Year 1665 - Daniel Defoe.
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Also Greensleeves ,many people,my daughter included , reported odd symptoms well before any cases were reported officially here .
My daughter was really ill, not heard of Covid 19, but coughing,pains in chest
and deep inside lower left side.
Was told she had pneumonia.Treated accordingly .
Recovered but other pains which might well have been something else or connected with the Pernicious Anaemia injection being due( not had that yet,seemingly the P.A.S. Has changed its advice to patients. Was told she could have itvafter June 1, but then advice changed ).
So if she had covid 19 or not we d on’t know But many people report similar things)
The true number will never be known.
Viktoria.
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Graph of recessions compared:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaTKIoqWoAElqFH?format=jpg&name=large
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Ouch! If I have understood that properly.
Viktoria.
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Looks like it might be financially similar to the South Sea Bubble crash of 1720 with British tax payers still paying off the debt until 2015, with 11000 bond holders receiving interest from the government. Lets hope our future generation aren't still paying in 300 year!
(one South Sea investment: £2000 of shares sold in "a company for carrying out an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is".! :o - no wonder the bubble burst)
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Graph of recessions compared:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaTKIoqWoAElqFH?format=jpg&name=large
But we will "bounce back". The ball will need to bounce very high.
"More or Less" (repeated from earlier in week) on Radio 4 now.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/12/england-are-coronavirus-cases-falling-or-rising-near-you
Fascinating clickable map for cases in your area of England last week.
In Cornwall last week there were 11 cases, the previous week there were only 4.
In one area in NW England there were 13 new cases, previous week only 11. And in another the figures are 6 last week, 3 the previous week.
However, in an adjoining area there was a reduction from 13 previous week to 3 last week and another reduction from 26 to 11.
I can see now why the R rate fluctuates so much, depending upon which figures you look at. Both SW and NW England have had R rates reported to be above 1 in the past week, but the number of cases is still relatively small.
Until there are no cases at all, there is the possibility of spread, but how can anyone estimate the rate of infection with any accuracy?
Regards Margaret
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Graph of recessions compared:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaTKIoqWoAElqFH?format=jpg&name=large
But we will "bounce back". The ball will need to bounce very high.
"More or Less" (repeated from earlier in week) on Radio 4 now.
Think it will take a hot air balloon or that Spacex Rocket :-X
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"More or Less" (repeated from earlier in week) on Radio 4 now.
2 items on testing, 1 about accuracy of antibody tests.
Also considered: the infection rate in March before lockdown; accuracy of death statistics.
"More or Less" is public service broadcasting. Worth a licence fee. Worth an award for factual reporting.
Next week is last edition in this series.
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But we will "bounce back". The ball will need to bounce very high.
"More or Less" (repeated from earlier in week) on Radio 4 now.
Think it will take a hot air balloon or that Spacex Rocket :-X
Well, we know who is well-placed to provide hot air. ;D I can imagine the cartoons.
I can't see my town or county bouncing back. Forecast is 3 years before Scotland recovery starts. Ken Clark interview on "PM" now saying it will be a long recovery.
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Probably we'll 'mumble and bumble' our way along the bottom
::)
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Probably we'll 'mumble and bumble' our way along the bottom
::)
The ball might roll along instead of bouncing. A bounce also has a downward trajectory.
My nearest little shop - groceries and newspapers - closed 2 months ago.
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Margaret~
As well as the Guardian's excellent updates, you can get the map and data on a daily basis from:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/?_ga=2.268921969.1240859137.1591980393-977526689.1584549676
Scroll down to the map and select LTLA (Lower Tier LAs). If you select the arrows you can get the info in alpha order, highest to lowest, etc.
MS - I fear that the studio where I had my glass art fired will have closed down. I've not heard from them for a while. It's in a large converted flour mill and there are many really good artists and makers with studios there :'(
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The Guardian diagram notes state "Increased testing also means that more cases may be being detected than previously, although the impact of this between one week and the next is likely to be slight."
The diagram shows a massive decrease in the number of cases for my area and I still think that's probably because the first week reflects the new mobile testing station in the area.
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It is up to us, the purchasing public, to help the country to get out of the economic slump by getting out there and, if you are able, to start buying and, where possible, buy British.
It seems that you will shortly be able to do this in England but, here in Wales, I am now starting to feel that we are experiencing state control dressed up as paternalistic concern. Our tourist industry, which, by the way, I support by having at least one holiday in Wales every year, is set to be destroyed if there is no relaxing of the "lockdown".
I am an adult, I am reasonably certain I am able to look after myself and not take unnecessary risks with my safety. I can make my own decisions as to what I or what I don't do, when allowed, but I am being treated like a five year old who cannot look after himself and I am not being given a chance to do anything.
Today's First Minister Q and A was more like a headmaster scolding naughty children. I felt he was patronising and talking down to us, as though we are incapable of looking after ourselves.
This isn't a case of "the man in Whitehall knows best", it is a case of "the man in Cardiff Bay knows best". He say he will not give in to more and more calls for relaxation of the rules. It's for our own good, you see. It's time to worry when loss of liberty is for your own good because that liberty rarely returns as it previously was.
I am faced with a ban on travel of more than five miles, really?.
I am an angler. I travel roughly between 20 and 30 miles to my fishing in Wales. I generally go by myself, I park in the middle of nowhere, I wander off down the river in the middle of nowhere by myself and throughout the day I rarely, if ever, see another human being and if I do, it is always at a distance well in excess of the much vaunted two metres.
Give us a chance Mr Drakeford, I'm sure the good people of Wales, me included, are much more responsible than you give them credit for.
Cymru am byth.
:)
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Well Llwyd, your opinions aren't shared by everyone. Here in the Brecon area, people have been refusing to sign a petition asking for relaxation of the lockdown, because we are pleased that (a) Senedd Cymru actually seems to care about the Welsh people and (b) most people round here are doing everything they can to follow the rules so as not to spread the virus. We are fortunate here, as our infection rate is considerably lower than those of the valleys. So most of us are making sacrifices to protect each other, by sticking to the 5 mile rule (which is not writ in stone for those of us out in the sticks - we are told the distance we can travel for leisure is 5 miles or the distance from our homes to the supermarket where we would normally shop).
And as far as us all rushing out to spend money - what money is that? So many people have lost their jobs, or are self-employed and have lost their incomes, that I don't think there's going to be much partying imminently. Even the Welsh who own holiday cottages are being cautious and saying they're happy to remain closed rather than risk bringing in infection.
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I am all for doing my bit to get the country out of the economic slump but I have no intention of doing that by queueing outside shops and shopping centres especially in rain like we have today. My purchases will be made online and I will not venture into the majority of shops until we get back to something like normal, if that ever happens.
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Greensleeves - beth bynnag.
:)
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Crumblie, I totally agree.
Viktoria
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Lockdown will not be easing for my Wife and I.
We will be avoiding crowds for the foreseeable future or until we are vaccinated.
In fact in town shopping is the furthest thing on our mind, whatever we want will be online.
In fact an in person Supermarket shop is a thing of the past, so no more add hoc buys, only the essentials. As it is instead of doing all our shop at Sainsbury’s we are spreading out our grocery spend to all the Supermarkets.
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I think a lot of people feel like Crumble and even when restrictions are lifted more won't be rushing to shopping centres. I won't be doing anything much until I see whether all the demonstrations lead to another spike in the towns and cities where they have been held. Having stayed pretty much isolated for 12 weeks, I'm certainly not going to spoil it now, so I will continue to shop on line.
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Although I (sort of) understand the reluctance of others, I plan to be heading into town pretty much as soon as the shops are open and supporting local markets & businesses as much as I can.
Earlier this week I had several windows replaced by a local firm, and was heartened to see that my next-door neighbour was doing the same (different firm, but again a local business).
My hair appointment is booked & pre-paid for 4th July, and I'll be tipping the stylist the total of what I would have given her had the salon been open.
I'm fully aware that I'm in the minority, but I honestly believe that if we continue to be so risk-averse then the damage to the economy and to those with non-Covid medical issues will have far worse and longer reaching repercussions than the virus itself.
Given that around half of C-19 deaths are in the 80+ age group, there's every likelihood that within the next 12-months or so the UK death rates in that age bracket will be significantly below average, suggesting that rather than saving lives we have merely 'deferred death' by a short period, and at a massive cost to the younger generation and to those with other medical needs.
I know that my views are unpalatable to many - probably most - but I think its time to let people make their own choices. If you're afraid, then stay indoors, minimise your social contacts, & order everything online, but otherwise let the rest of us get on with it.
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Margaret~
As well as the Guardian's excellent updates, you can get the map and data on a daily basis from:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/?_ga=2.268921969.1240859137.1591980393-977526689.1584549676
Scroll down to the map and select LTLA (Lower Tier LAs). If you select the arrows you can get the info in alpha order, highest to lowest, etc.
MS - I fear that the studio where I had my glass art fired will have closed down. I've not heard from them for a while. It's in a large converted flour mill and there are many really good artists and makers with studios there :'(
Thank you for that, Gadget, I hadn't seen those before. Interesting reading!! NE England seems to have had the highest rate per 100,000 population of the whole of the country. What are you doing over there? Gallivanting and street parties, I should think. Followed shortly by my region, NW England.
(Pot. Kettle. Black)
Have saved it to my home page.
Regards Margaret
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I heard on Newsnight (and some other sources that I can't remember) that the high rates are possibly related to the testing regimes. The NW, especially Cumbria, were doing far more testing, as a proportion of the population, than other regions. Thus more cases discovered. Local reports up here (NE) also suggested higher testing rates.
Sadly, we'll not know the true figures.
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I think I will just curl up and die Jomot!
How have the deaths of many old people who for the most part were in care homes for which they were paying - were not going anywhere, in fact their lives were often one long exercise in “Social @#£&£# distancing “ apart from the carers in those homes,- affected the number deaths among younger people?
Perhaps we should lock them all up,throw away the key and leave them to their own devices.
They are of no use really ,non productive now and burning up whatever they saved through hard work and then their houses are commandeered for home fees,the cheeky beggars are using up what their children hoped to get.
The audacity!
How old are you?
Not too old to get a flea in your ear !
Viktoria.
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I totally agree with every word jomot has said.
We shall do likewise, just like the many many oldies in our garden centre and in the tesco queue were doing.
We are not alone, in fact I think we are the silent majority.
Mike
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I think one of the big problems with the care homes was that although they charges high fees they did not employ enough staff to keep the places clean and residents safe. It was not just a problem in the UK, Canada had similar problems with 31 deaths in just one care home alone.
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I think one of the big problems with the care homes was that although they charges high fees they did not employ enough staff to keep the places clean and residents safe. It was not just a problem in the UK, Canada had similar problems with 31 deaths in just one care home alone.
I am not sure that is true about keeping the residents clean and safe.
From what I understand it was keeping or receiving infected residents when they should have been in hospital.
I certainly won’t be going shopping but I can understand that people will want to do so and decide for themselves.
I have just looked at the deaths in our local area via a Manchester Evening News article. The bigger the circle, the more recorded deaths. Our area has 2 deaths recorded.
In one fairly affluent local area, there are about 18 deaths over 3 months. I can only presume that the deaths were mainly in care homes.
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I didn't say that the elderly deaths had affected the number of deaths of the younger generation. I said that the lockdown - or more specifically it's continuation - was affecting the health, education, employment & financial viability of the younger generation. And they matter too!
My age is irrelevant, but I have an 88-year-old father who I've been caring for daily throughout. I love him to bits, but the reality is that the younger members of my family have been incarcerated, lost jobs, lost education, and been unable to access healthcare - predominantly to protect people of his generation.
Yes, it may sound callous, but whilst my Dad has been 'saved' by the lock-down, the reality is he's highly likely to die within the next 12-18 months anyway, but my son is now furloughed and at serious risk of unemployment, with no savings to fall back on and a mortgage of 4x his former salary. He's also been unable to access the mental health services he desperately needs. My husband has been working throughout (in a school) but has had an urgent hospital appointment pushed back by 4-months and told to dial 999 if it becomes an emergency, which it may well do.
There is nothing to stop my father - or anyone else who needs/wishes to - to continue a self-imposed lockdown, but I think it incredibly selfish to expect those at minimal risk to do the same.
It seems to me that those against any easing have been been happy for food manufacturers, warehouse workers, delivery drivers, supermarket staff, pharmacists, teachers etc to continue working - but are against any easing that doesn't benefit them personally. Sounds like the height of selfishness to me.
By the way, I don't expect to get anything from my father - I worked hard too and have my own home & money, thank you, and I don't think it unreasonable to want the same opportunities for my son. After all, who pays for the NHS if no-one is working or spending money?
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Once again I agree with every word Jomot has written,
Mike
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The reason there were so many deaths in care homes is that people went untested and were sent back there after being in hospital. A typical case is someone whose father was sent to a care home from hospital, became ill within a few hours and was returned to hospital where he was tested and proved positive and died. He should have been tested before being allowed to leave hospital. The care home wasn't informed by the hospital that he'd had Covid 19, so no extra precautions were taken. They lost several more patients and two staff. Deaths were down to lack of testing and bad communication.
What worries me is that places, especially where large crowds can gather, will be opened up too soon due to pressure. That could lead to another spike, with another lockdown which will affect the economy even more. Plus will people be so willing to obey rules next time?
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What worries me is that places, especially where large crowds can gather, will be opened up too soon due to pressure. That could lead to another spike, with another lockdown which will affect the economy even more. Plus will people be so willing to obey rules next time?
That is my worry also, so we will forgo our weekend break at a busy hotel if and when they reopen
I think Boris is going for herd immunity by stealth so another full lockdown is unlikely.
Mike
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I see that it has flared up again in parts of China. We may be heading to "Lockdown 2", the sequel.
Malky
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I see that it has flared up again in parts of China. We may be heading to "Lockdown 2", the sequel.
Malky
We may indeed, or the virus could mutate to a more deadly form or could weaken to insignificance, the experts don’t know, we don’t know, a vaccine is unlikely any time soon, a cure even more unlikely, lockdown just delays the inevitable.
So, don’t put others at risk, observe social distancing yourself and make the best of it.
Mke
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Lockdown release for Prince Charles and Camilla who return to London next week - Prince Charles and President Macron will commemorate the 80th anniversary of General Charles de Gaulle's appeal for French resistance.
Mr Macron will be welcomed to Clarence House by the Prince and Duchess of Cornwall next week, in the first announced engagement for the Royal Family in person since lock down began.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2020/06/12/macron-visit-uk-face-to-face-visits-prince-charles-boris-johnson/
Sandra
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I see that it has flared up again in parts of China. We may be heading to "Lockdown 2", the sequel.
Malky
Just heard it on the news. Very worrying. Apparently some traces of virus were found on a salmon chopping board in a food market.. All workers in the market are being tested.
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What worries me is that places, especially where large crowds can gather, will be opened up too soon due to pressure. That could lead to another spike, with another lockdown which will affect the economy even more. Plus will people be so willing to obey rules next time?
I think to some extent it depends on what a second spike would look like. Ahead of the the first wave life was carrying on pretty much as normal, so the virus was able to spread rapidly amongst the vulnerable. Assuming that group continues to largely shelter, then any second wave would circulate mainly amongst the younger/healthier population, resulting in a high infection rate but far fewer hospitalisations etc.
We are far better placed now to implement the (denied) original plan of sheltering the 'at risk' and building up herd immunity amongst the rest of the population, which might in fact be our only way out of this.
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I suppose the thinking is that as both Prince Charles and Boris Johnson have had Covid 19, it is fairly safe for them to meet others.
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Travelling form Birkhall Scotland to Clarence House next week while we are still in lock down ?
Do they know something we don't ???
Sandra
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Jomot, I agree with your thoughts.
I have looked for this "second spike" in China and can see no evidence of it. The worst day in the last week saw 11 reported new cases and no new deaths. If this is what a second wave looks like then it is time to get back to enjoying our basic freedoms once more. For personal (friends and family) reasons I would also like to see us enjoying a fully functioning NHS again.
Incidentally I really do not understand this fear of a second wave in the UK - as freedoms are restored throughout Europe it is clear that this second wave paranoia in the UK is just that. Had it been a real threat we would have witnessed a veritable tsunami of European second waves by now; there has been no second wave!
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@ Sandra, he's been skulking in the Highlands with his entourage like his Bonnie Prince predecessor afore him. On arrival in Scotland he summoned a team of hard-pressed folk out from Aberdeen to have themselves tested for Corona, against all the rules, and only appeared briefly in his kilt to encourage the lower orders to help save the raspberry crop. There has been talk of a private prosecution as per a certain D.Cummings.
Skoosh.
PS, just had an email from Houston, the Texas one! Everything is open there again & Covid 19 cases are increasing!
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I gather that he's been given dispensation by No 10 (DC??) to travel as he's travelling for work and can't work from there.
:-X
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I have looked for this "second spike" in China and can see no evidence of it.
How have you investigated this and have come to that conclusion? Sources please. Otherwise it's just conjecture on your part.
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I gather that he's been given dispensation by No 10 (DC??) to travel as he's travelling for work and can't work from there.
:-X
lol.
A spokesperson for Prime Minister Boris Johnson has confirmed Mr Macron will be exempt from quarantine.
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Think we have done with our big spending for awhile, just as lockdown happened our suite went to be reupholstered, we were on garden chairs till they were allowed back to do the carpet and the suits, the curtains can wait, not in a hurry to be out in crowds, this lot will see us out
Louisa Maud
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I do not think that there will be herd immunity to this virus. And the lockdown was not to protect "at risk" people per se, but to stop the spread of the virus.
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Given that Britain is possibly the worst in Europe kinda limits sensible comparisons!
Skoosh.
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I have looked for this "second spike" in China and can see no evidence of it. The worst day in the last week saw 11 reported new cases and no new deaths. If this is what a second wave looks like then it is time to get back to enjoying our basic freedoms once more. For personal (friends and family) reasons I would also like to see us enjoying a fully functioning NHS again.
From the BBC
"A virus outbreak in a wholesale market in Beijing leads to fears of a second wave in the Chinese capital
Forty-five cases have been recorded, after weeks without new infections; the area is put on lockdown."
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I am an adult, I am reasonably certain I am able to look after myself and not take unnecessary risks with my safety. I can make my own decisions as to what I or what I don't do, when allowed, but I am being treated like a five year old who cannot look after himself and I am not being given a chance to do anything.
It's for our own good, you see. It's time to worry when loss of liberty is for your own good because that liberty rarely returns as it previously was.
I agree. I've been worried about this from the start. It isn't an exaggeration to say that our liberty is at stake. We are being treated like sheep - perhaps some people like to be told what they can do; where they can go, when they can do it to within 2 metres of their existence? These things don't happen overnight: its insidious, and once you give these little tin pot politicians a bit of power, they will not want to relinquish it easily.
The very way they have been treating us over these past few months has brought to mind quite a bit of 1984: group thought, being told that Cummings was perfectly entitled to do what he liked because the new rules don't apply to him, nor to any of the so-called elite. I read today that BJ would not allow those from the medical/scientific fraternity to take part in the daily broadcasts unless they agreed to support the government. One admirable lady would not publicly condone what DC had done - and we have seen no more of her.
The thing I hold onto is this: it won't work here! You can't just lie your way out of a situation and try to silence people here! We won't put up with it - from most of the posts on here, most people know exactly what's going on; just how incompetent all these small men have been. They think they've got away with it by swearing black is white and treating us, the people, like numbskulls. Yes, we have out fair share of the latter (most of them in government) but the vast majority of us will surely eventually turn on these lying, useless excuses for human beings.
How anyone can believe anything this lot say or do in the next 4 years is beyond me.
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Events unfolding in central London might suggest that social distancing is not working.
Mike
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Given that Britain is possibly the worst in Europe kinda limits sensible comparisons!
Skoosh.
I'm surprised that Macron has agreed to come here. HRH should maybe visit him in Paris, it would be safer.
Mike - it appears to be the Tommy Robinson supporters who are causing most of the problems.
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I understood that Lockdown was to protect the NHS from being overloaded by older people (my husband is 82) however younger people now seem to be able to do as they please by mass gatherings etc. I was trying to "distance" this morning in a supermarket but nobody took notice of the floor markings and kept coming close by, in fact one woman told me she thought it was a load of hype and hadn't taken any precautions at all saying all the handwashing was rubbish.
rayard.
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We are being treated like sheep because a significant proportion of the population have been behaving irresponsibly, not bothering about the social spacing, just look at the images of the past couple of weeks of beaches, parks and the crowds protesting for the Black Lives Matter campaign.
Not exactly following the guidance given.
Of those of you who think that there is no evidence of a second spike I will ask a question ..... do you want to take the risk and ease your own lockdown actions?
The Government is opening up daily life to see what happens, if there is to be a second spike then can the NHS handle it? Otherwise the economy will start to recover but I for one believe that this will be a very slow process.
For those of us of pensionable age or of dubious health then it is up to each of us to manage our own risks.
We will certainly be maintaining social distancing for the rest of the year at least.
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You can try to maintain social distancing but it's difficult if the other people won't! One woman even leaned over me to get something out of the fridges.
rayard.
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Gadget,
My figures for China are most certainly not conjecture (how on earth did you arrive at that conclusion as I quoted actual numbers?) The figures come from the National Health Commission of the People's Republic of China. If you want an English version of their figures try this link:- https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/
Skoosh, I note your comments on cases in Houston Texas (as opposed to Renfrewshire?). There has been a grand total of 153 cases in Houston since the start of the outbreak and no deaths whatsoever.
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Of course as opposed to Renfrewshire! folk here mention their grannie in Houston, they don't mean Texas! ;D
I never mentioned deaths, try New York for deaths!
Skoosh.
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Rayard,
You are completely correct - lockdown was to protect the NHS from being unable to cope. That didn't happen and so the rationale for lockdown no longer exists.
As regards supermarkets, a highly relevant point I have seen previously somewhere on these boards is that these are the places where the greatest number of people gather together usually not particularly bothering about the two metre advice. If the virus was as omnipresent and infectious as suggested by some you would expect many supermarkets to have had to close as they were riddled with infection. This hasn't happened and so should give us all cause for thought.
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Skoosh,
Have you ever enjoyed the grand tour of Moscow to Houston to California all without leaving Scotland. A great trip to confuse others in these times of limited travel. Also, not forgetting what this board is about, a bit of a genealogical nightmare at times.
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SonofthorN, you obviously have no knowledge of epidemiology. if that's all you have to go on.
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Gadget,
I do not understand why you should feel it appropriate to make such assumptions about my knowledge. You implied that I had simply guessed at Chinese figures so I gave you my source, the Chinese Government's official figures. It would have been more appropriate to acknowledge that the figures I quoted were from an official source and not as you suggested a wild guess.
Incidentally, quoting official Government figures is not an epidemiological statement.
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I have looked for this "second spike" in China and can see no evidence of it. The worst day in the last week saw 11 reported new cases and no new deaths. If this is what a second wave looks like then it is time to get back to enjoying our basic freedoms once more. For personal (friends and family) reasons I would also like to see us enjoying a fully functioning NHS again.
From the BBC
"A virus outbreak in a wholesale market in Beijing leads to fears of a second wave in the Chinese capital
Forty-five cases have been recorded, after weeks without new infections; the area is put on lockdown."
You missed this information.
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@ sonofthom, this thread is actually about England & you're apparently an expert from Perthshire where they still think Corona is a lager! ;D
Skoosh.
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Skoosh, Thank you for acknowledging my expertise! I do try to stick to appropriately sourced facts and figures. I agree that this thread is about England although as you read through it many people are trying to draw conclusions by looking at, or indeed failing to look at, experience elsewhere.
Incidentally the official figures issued today by the National Health Commission of the People's Republic of China reveals 11 new cases of which 6 are in Beijing; the other 5 are imported cases.
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Sonofthom, I don't think Gadget is necessarily disputing the numbers you gave, which applied to last week's figures, I think you said.
Gadget is referring to this week's news, widely reported in many different online news reports. Or rather, today's news.
It is reported that Beijing is in lockdown after a spike of cases relating to a food market there.
Sky news, Telegraph, Guardian as well as BBC news. Relatively small numbers as yet, but you only need one case unchecked to cause widespread disruption again.
Apparently 'dozens of asymptomatic cases' according to Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/13/beijing-china-new-covid-19-cases-linked-to-food-market
'The chairman of the Xinfadi market told state media that the virus was detected on chopping boards used to handle imported salmon.'
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-shops-lockdown-uk-update-deaths-face-masks/
'The cluster was detected after throat swabs from 45 people, out of 517 tested at the district's Xinfadi market, proved positive for coronavirus, although none of them showed symptoms of COVID-19, according to the authorities'
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-beijing-shuts-food-market-and-goes-into-wartime-emergency-mode-after-spike-in-covid-19-cases-12005803
Regards Margaret
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Sugarfizzle, for the avoidance of doubt I can confirm that I quoted figures for the last seven days including the official figures released today, so these are this week's figures. I did include a link which quotes all of the figures in English and which in turn links to the official Chinese release.
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To those who are impatient for life to get back to normal: have you forgotten the message behind this and similar images:
https://www.rotherham.gov.uk/images/The_power_of_social_distancing_graphic.png
Bearing in mind that there is currently no vaccine to protect against Covid-19, and no remedy; also that you could be spreading the virus while unaware that you have it: do you really want to put so many others at risk just so you can feel normal again?
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At this moment you cannot get diagnosis or treatment for life threatening illnesses.
The nhs already had a three month backlog, it now has a six month backlog, Many, many more people may die because of this.
As a nation we cannot feed ourselves without imports, if our economy lags far behind the rest of the world we cannot pay for these imports.
Life with 10 million unemployed will not be worth living
Mike
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Sugarfizzle, for the avoidance of doubt I can confirm that I quoted figures for the last seven days including the official figures released today, so these are this week's figures. I did include a link which quotes all of the figures in English and which in turn links to the official Chinese release.
My mistake then, but you seemed to imply the figures were from last week.
Guess the newspapers are reporting fake news again when they say 45 cases have been identified recently in Beijing, and the city is in lockdown. Reuters and The Times also reporting this as well. They must all have got it from the same incorrect source, without fact checking.
Regards Margaret
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Its so easy to get drawn into arguing about all this 2 metres v 1 metre distancing and R numbers stuff but its all hypothetical. The science that BJ insists he is following consists of many scientists with differing theories. Its not an absolute science. Its heaven-sent for the politicians because they can do what suits them and find a scientist to agree with them.
I think the important message is that we're all adults and we can make our own minds up.
No amount of rules and advice is going to stop some people 'invading your space' when you're out and about - that's just how it is. Its up to us to make those rational allowances and act accordingly. Unfortunately, as things have panned out, that seems to be the majority of us on here: of a certain age and often with underlying health issues. Younger people seem to be all but immune and so they get on with their lives pretty much as they want. To be honest, if I was in their shoes, I'd probably do the same.
As I'm not in their shoes, I avoid crowds and public transport. Its not much of a hardship for me because I'm not keen on crowds at the best of times.
Protect you and yours and forget all this falling out - our government is not worth the time you are giving them.
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Are things really easing up ? Is it just the care homes that are still struggling ?
A care home in our area has 18 residents, two are currently in hospital due to other conditions, and all but one of those currently in the home has corona virus. Not what you expect to read this far along the line :-\
Sandra
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My argument was with Jomot’s fifth paragraph, where the saving of the lives of elderly people was weighed against that of young people———
“At significant cost to the young”..
Well not only the young matter ,we should all matter.
Remember what Captain Tom did , has any young person without the difficulties age brings ,done anything as like much as that?
They will have helped of course .
I did not say this in my first post but I will now, some people are behaving incredibly selfishly, and I would say Jomot ,by going out and about as you intend doing ,you are putting your father at risk if you visit him.
Viktoria.
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Hello All
We are currently experiencing UK Summer weather and for those critical of the UK Lockdown (which did allow a daily walk outside) and also feel dictated too, I don't think anyone has got away with this disease yet, we the public especially!
The UK is still desperate to reduce the current huge numbers of those testing Positive daily with Covid-19.
Hospitals have a backlog of non-Covid patients and ...
UK Winter
Can you imagine the coming UK Winter, people catching the usual standard winter cold or flu, whilst also carrying Covid-19 and also coughing and sneezing their cold AND Covid-19 in the air all around them and onto surfaces etc?
If the worst case scenario does occur the UK Winter daily death figures could go crazy again!
Some are looking at the daily death figures lowering and are feeling complacent with Social Distancing and good Hygiene.
I hope it doesn't come back to bite us in the bum, but the estimates are, that it could!
Mark
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That's what they are, though - estimates.
I don't think anyone - however learned - has the first idea of what is going to happen. Its into the unknown... (play the Twilight Zone music...)
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With that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7NlFWh7Sz8
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That's what they are, though - estimates.
I don't think anyone - however learned - has the first idea of what is going to happen. Its into the unknown... (play the Twilight Zone music...)
Hi
It is the unknown and Scientists admit that.
It is no good weeping later, saying to the government I have lost my ... surely you knew it was a possibility it could return in the Winter when people were coughing & sneezing with usual Winter flu, why did you not plan for this when you knew there were people with Covid-19 still?
Seems to me this Government are being damned if they do something and damned when they don't!
Mark
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Au contraire, Mark. I sincerely hope they are planning for a winter resurgence. Its what they failed to do for the current bout - apparently BJ disbanded the special group set up (before his time in office) to do just that about 6 months ago.
We already know that they - and previous governments - failed to act on recommendations made by a 'dummy run' about 5 years ago.
Their first imperative is supposed to be to keep us safe! Not sure how many points I'd give them so far, but definitely 0 for effort.
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Well I don’t Have figures to hand of the numbers unemployed during the Great Depression.
It has to be remembered we had fought a war for “ A land fit for heroes”.
So many fatherless families etc.
No Welfare state in place and yet we got through to fight another war twenty years after WW1 ended.I had graphic descriptions from my parents what that was like.
A jam butty to me was two slices of bread,buttered and jam spread on them .
For my Dad’s generation it was dry bread ,no butter or margarine ,a little smear of cheap jam.
And he’d been in the army,P.O.W.back home March 1919.
I also think that many jobs that will become non essential are the ones like nail bars, tanning boutiques, fashion outlets etc.
A pity because people have invested and got off their backsides to create their own businesses.
However we can survive without them but I do feel for the small entrepreneurs like that.
I don’t see any harm in being as cautious as we can, that way we protect ourselves ,our loved ones and people such as Health Workers etc .
The more we do that the quicker this could die out as no “ hosts”.
The NHS staff must be on their knees ,those who have survived!
I am not leaving my house and garden only for a short walk in a very sparsely populated location .
I have no physical contact with anyone ,money for window cleaner in a pot of TCP, will pay son for the shopping he leaves at the gate or doorstep when
it is alright to do so.
Have sent no cards or presents for birthdays, have not been anywhere at all since my last Hospital appointment before all this really became a lockdown situation.
I can’t do more.
But I’ll be blowed if I will be made to feel guilty for being old by someone who is not being as cautious as I am!.
Viktoria.
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Au contraire, Mark. I sincerely hope they are planning for a winter resurgence. Its what they failed to do for the current bout - apparently BJ disbanded the special group set up (before his time in office) to do just that about 6 months ago.
We already know that they - and previous governments - failed to act on recommendations made by a 'dummy run' about 5 years ago.
Their first imperative is supposed to be to keep us safe! Not sure how many points I'd give them so far, but definitely 0 for effort.
I agree absolutely. Now the scientists, doctors and the chief nurse are all standing back, and refusing to put their names to the chaos that is Westminster's response to the pandemic. I do hope that if the govt tries to put the blame on them, we stand behind those who have worked so hard and risked their lives to minimise the deaths during this dreadful time.
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Margaret~
As well as the Guardian's excellent updates, you can get the map and data on a daily basis from:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/?_ga=2.268921969.1240859137.1591980393-977526689.1584549676
Scroll down to the map and select LTLA (Lower Tier LAs). If you select the arrows you can get the info in alpha order, highest to lowest, etc.
MS - I fear that the studio where I had my glass art fired will have closed down. I've not heard from them for a while. It's in a large converted flour mill and there are many really good artists and makers with studios there :'(
I may be really dense, but all I am finding is total number of cases in my extremely large local authority area. No indication of how many in the last week or two within 5 - 10 miles of where I live
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I don't think I said that you could get lower than your LTLA, Lizzie. These are the daily numbers, for what they're worth. Daily differences are not all that much use. It's best to look at weekly figures.
None of the figures will tell you the actual number of cases or deaths. We stopped testing early on and many people have just self isolated. Death certs don't always mention Covid, so they're not counted.
The very best you'll get will be an estimate.
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I tend to note the numbers for my LTLA (Newcastle upon Tyne) and do my own calculations to get an estimate. I've noticed that the numbers for N/c haven't change since Thursday.
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My argument was with Jomot’s fifth paragraph, where the saving of the lives of elderly people was weighed against that of young people———
“At significant cost to the young”..
Well not only the young matter ,we should all matter.
Remember what Captain Tom did , has any young person without the difficulties age brings ,done anything as like much as that?
They will have helped of course .
I did not say this in my first post but I will now, some people are behaving incredibly selfishly, and I would say Jomot ,by going out and about as you intend doing ,you are putting your father at risk if you visit him.
Viktoria.
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Are young people doing anything? How about this: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/tonys-10k-walk
As to my father, when going out & about - as I fully intend to do - I will be visiting places that the Government has deemed safe to open, and following Government guidelines on social distancing, hand washing etc. However, I will also be contributing to the local economy and helping to protect local jobs. Hardly selfish actions.
Life cannot be entirely risk-free, and given latest estimate that only 1 in every 1,700 people are currently infected, I consider my intended actions to be entirely proportionate to the risk. If I unknowingly pick up the virus and somehow pass it on to my father then it will be because I've been extremely unlucky; not because I've been reckless.
Where has anyone suggested you should feel guilty for being old? I certainly haven't. Nor have I suggested you should behave in any way beyond that which you are comfortable with. Your behaviours will doubtless keep you safe - but the same level of protection is inherent in simply being young, fit & healthy, so how is it selfish for those people to want to earn a living and receive an education?
It's clear we won't agree, but ultimately we are both behaving within guidelines and according to our own perception of the risk, and I've every confidence that we'll both "stay safe". :-*
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No amount of rules and advice is going to stop some people 'invading your space' when you're out and about - that's just how it is. Its up to us to make those rational allowances and act accordingly.
By carrying a yardstick or a long umbrella with a sharp point when out in public. A golf umbrella will be best - to be opened if people approach. ;D
I saw a man walking towards me on a narrow pavement this evening. He stepped in the road and walked the other side of a parked car as we passed each other. He smiled at me and I said "good evening" to him. The same thing happened on that pavement another day. Fortunately it's a quiet road. I feel safe enough out in the open air.
When a person gets too near me in Tesco, I turn my back.
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I suppose the thinking is that as both Prince Charles and Boris Johnson have had Covid 19, it is fairly safe for them to meet others.
If I were Macron, I wouldn't shake hands with either of them though. Definitely no kissing or hugging.
One of my precautions is giving up shaking hands for life.
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How about this: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/tonys-10k-walk
As to my father, when going out & about - as I fully intend to do - I will be visiting places that the Government has deemed safe to open, and following Government guidelines on social distancing, hand washing etc. However, I will also be contributing to the local economy and helping to protect local jobs. Hardly selfish actions.
Life cannot be entirely risk-free, and given latest estimate that only 1 in every 1,700 people are currently infected, I consider my intended actions to be entirely proportionate to the risk. If I unknowingly pick up the virus and somehow pass it on to my father then it will be because I've been extremely unlucky; not because I've been reckless.
... "stay safe". :-*
That is one heck of a brave remarkable young man and I see where you are coming from Jomot.
Yes, there has always been risk in life.
I'm still trying to follow the Rules, but won't be protesting.
We have been out for my daily walks and look forward to one pint of my favourite tipple in the Pub garden (some of us campaigned to keep open in 2005, an amenity enjoyed by many).
I am resting at home and for a long time consider myself very very lucky for each day of life. We were offered a drug in 2006, I prayed and took a risk not to take it due to awful side effects already known, sadly in 2018 the drug was associated with a high risk of dementia and some will have died already.
Yes, there has always been a risk every day for many (driving a car, crossing a road and going up and down stairs etc., all have a risk).
Yes my Full Car & Motorcycle Licence was Revoked about 20 years ago by the DVLC Doctor, I did not selfishly take risks with the lives of others.
Some of us have lived with risk for decades. However, it has been absolutely wonderful to wake up every day and today, thank you, despite all the woe in the world.
I still thank the NHS for all the investigations, but we have to make the best with the cards we may have been dealt.
Currently, the Scientists can't always agree with the way forward with Covid, while government borrowing is going up and the economy and jobs are shrinking.
A bunch of people in England are now taking a risk, to trial a Covid-19 vaccine.
I prayed last night, that I would wake up and enjoy another day of life today with my immediate contact family as best I can and I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation we all face now.
That young man is a brave smiling soul who had such a bad start in life.
Take care everyone, Mark :D
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I don't think I said that you could get lower than your LTLA, Lizzie. These are the daily numbers, for what they're worth. Daily differences are not all that much use. It's best to look at weekly figures.
None of the figures will tell you the actual number of cases or deaths. We stopped testing early on and many people have just self isolated. Death certs don't always mention Covid, so they're not counted.
The very best you'll get will be an estimate.
These numbers are total cases from whenever they started counting - late Feb, early March? We are planning to go somewhere in the adjacent county next week, but I can't see anywhere that I can find out the number of cases in that area currently. Only the total number that there have been over the last three and a half months.
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Topic now locked as it's gone into so many pages. :)