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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: mazi on Sunday 03 May 20 14:03 BST (UK)
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It’s to be trialled on the Isle of Wight and everybody is to be encouraged to download it.
Please will someone tell our gov. that not everyone has, or can afford, or can use the necessary smartphone and associated unlimited access contract.
Mike
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To be much use it will also require swab tests to be turned around quicker. A family member was waiting 5 or 6 days
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They know that not everyone can or will want to use the app. The target uptake is 50-60% of the population, according to the BBC. That leaves room for plenty of non-users.
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They know that not everyone can or will want to use the app. The target uptake is 50-60% of the population, according to the BBC. That leaves room for plenty of non-users.
That does not quite fit with the statement “ the government will be asking the whole of the UK to download it”
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The BBC has an article about how it works and it says the app will know the distance between people but not how long they were close to each other. So I can forsee big problems when they ring to ask about your contacts and you cannot even remember being close to the person who has tested positive. Just imagine how many people you come close to in even a short walk once the lockdown eases. What about if you have been close to someone who tests positive but you were back to back not face to face, you will get the third degree, swab etc. when there was very little risk. Lastly what about the person who is positive but has no symptoms, when you find you are positive how can you explain how it happened?
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So I can forsee big problems when they ring to ask about your contacts and you cannot even remember being close to the person who has tested positive. Just imagine how many people you come close to in even a short walk once the lockdown eases. What about if you have been close to someone who tests positive but you were back to back not face to face, you will get the third degree, swab etc. when there was very little risk. Lastly what about the person who is positive but has no symptoms, when you find you are positive how can you explain how it happened?
That is not how it works. When a person with the app tests positive their phone data will show other phone users (who also have the app) that they have come in close contact with and those people will be notified and advised to be tested.
I think it is already too late for the UK to be doing any sort of contact tracing.
Debra :)
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They know that not everyone can or will want to use the app. The target uptake is 50-60% of the population, according to the BBC. That leaves room for plenty of non-users.
That does not quite fit with the statement “ the government will be asking the whole of the UK to download it”
Why not?
Everyone will be asked to download and enable it if they can.
The government (reportedly) thinks if 50-60% actually do so then that will be adequate.
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I think it is already too late for the UK to be doing any sort of contact tracing.
Or too early. It can only really work when the overall numbers of infections are much lower than at the moment. As lockdown continues to drive the numbers down, it will become more feasible.
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Shouldn't we have been doing this two months ago when there were a handful of infections in the country, not when there are still 4000 plus new ones each day. About the time the government was saying we were three weeks behind Italy, no need for a lockdown, if my memory is right.
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Yes.
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I was not intending to question it’s usefulness, merely the assumption that everyone has a smartphone and lives where there is a signal, but, just because every 18-39 year old male seemingly walks round with a phone to their ear does not mean we all do it.
A quick check round friends and family suggests that phones are shared, carried in some else’s pocket cos they won’t fit in a handbag, only switched on when they are needed as the battery is low etc etc etc.
You cannot assume that everyone has a switched on smartphone on their person at all times.
Mike
Added, false information can be more dangerous than no information
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Lastly what about the person who is positive but has no symptoms, when you find you are positive how can you explain how it happened?
That is not how it works. When a person with the app tests positive their phone data will show other phone users (who also have the app) that they have come in close contact with and those people will be notified and advised to be tested.
I think what Crumblie is saying (apologies if I'm wrong) is that someone without symptoms will have no reason to get tested, so they won't show up as positive in the database and people that they might have passed it on to won't be notified.
Otherwise, I tend to agree with Mike (mazi)'s reservations about this. If the government want me to use an app on a smartphone, perhaps they'd like to buy me one and pay for whatever contract is needed? Also, the government and NHS's track record on IT projects doesn't exactly inspire a great deal of confidence that this one will work as hoped.
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My thinking is that we only notice the chatty sociable people who open up their phone with the latest pics of cat dog grandchildren etc, in any group of a dozen people there are three or four like that and eight or nine who wish the thing had never been invented, they have one some where, and sometimes if they remember, they switch it on.
We don’t all live in London and have busy social lives but the gov. seems to think we all do
Mike
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Arthurk you are right about what I was saying about people with no symptoms not being tested. The government and the NHS both admit that the true number of positive cases is much higher than those which have been tested. They also admit that there are people who have the virus but are showing no symptoms. At the moment we are finding around 4,000 new positive cases every day despite the country being in lockdown for over a month. That suggests that either people who have the symptoms are not self-isolating or those with no symptoms are passing it on. No amount of contact tracking will help now it is just too late.
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Listen to the coronavirus update on now for information.
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It’s to be trialled on the Isle of Wight and everybody is to be encouraged to download it.
Please will someone tell our gov. that not everyone has, or can afford, or can use the necessary smartphone and associated unlimited access contract.
Mike
My understanding is that the trial on the IoW is of the whole track and trace system. The app is only one part of the system and I guess one of the outcomes of the trial will be to show how useful or otherwise this technology is.
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My concerns are two fold -
1 - I don't like the idea of being tracked. It is nobody's business, except mine and my wife's, where I go and how long I spent there.
2 - I do not trust the Government to switch off the tracking when this is all over.
What a useful tool for the police next time a crime is committed, why would they want to give that up? And then how soon will some innocent person be arrested for a crime they did not commit. "You were right on the spot, you must be involved". "The innocent have nothing to fear" has been proved a thousand times to be nothing more than a cruel joke.
Regards
Chas
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My concerns are two fold -
1 - I don't like the idea of being tracked. It is nobody's business, except mine and my wife's, where I go and how long I spent there.
2 - I do not trust the Government to switch off the tracking when this is all over.
What a useful tool for the police next time a crime is committed, why would they want to give that up? And then how soon will some innocent person be arrested for a crime they did not commit. "You were right on the spot, you must be involved". "The innocent have nothing to fear" has been proved a thousand times to be nothing more than a cruel joke.
Regards
Chas
Then your answer is very simple don't download the app, you don't have to.
On the other hand it is an NHS app not a government app and will be treated in the same way as hospital records, the app does not check your location but whether you are in bluetooth range of someone who has recorded he/she has covid-19.
Cheers
Guy
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And of course it only knows where the phone has been, not who was using it at the time, we have two phones, one pay as you go, the other on contract, the pay phone stays at home, the other is with whoever is out at the time.
Some people have family contracts, and phones within the Family are common property.
Mike
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I have a very cheap phone on PAYG that is used for emergency purposes only. OH has an even cheaper phone on PAYG that he hasn't even used yet. I have no intention of buying a Smartphone even if the contract was free. I have far better things to do with my life than spend it staring at a phone to see if anyone 'likes' me. The sad thing is, if I had one, I know that is what I would be doing.
If they are able to track you for these purposes, what else could they do in the future? It doesn't bear thinking about.
Rishile
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People are being tracked by Google every time they go out with their smart phones and the information is being supplied to the authorities - this is how they know how many people are visiting parks etc.
I don't have a smart phone, just a "steam driven" PAYG.
:)
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My understanding is that it works by bluetooth, so if you have the app downloaded and you are near someone else who also had the app downloaded it records it. Then if one of you later reports they have symptoms everyone who has been in contact will be informed.
Slightly worrying if they do at some point they say certain groups of people aren't allowed out, as they could check if you are breaking quarantine. However, I presume in that case you could just turn off the bluetooth, I only turn mine on when I need it anyway. Or you just delete the app from your phone.
As said before not everyone has a smart phone, but I suspect this is really aimed at people who will be out and about a lot - going to work, travelling on public transport etc and most of those will have smart phones.
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As said before not everyone has a smart phone, but I suspect this is really aimed at people who will be out and about a lot - going to work, travelling on public transport etc and most of those will have smart phones.
That's a bit of a sweeping statement I think. I don't have a smart phone because I don't have a need for one but I do go to work, I go out a lot to shops, restaurants, pubs, theatres etc. although I don't use public transport. I don't see that a smart phone is a necessary accessory to a normal life.
Rishile
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It's not compulsory so if you don't have a smart phone or don't want to download the app you don't have to. I have a smartphone, I find it very useful for a number of things but I won't be downloading the app, I wouldn't feel particularly comfortable with it but also as I haven't been within a million miles of anyone (OK, slight exaggeration), it wouldn't have anything to work on.
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It’s to be trialled on the Isle of Wight and everybody is to be encouraged to download it.
Please will someone tell our gov. that not everyone has, or can afford, or can use the necessary smartphone and associated unlimited access contract.
Mike
A subset of people have smart phones
A subset of smart phone owners will use the app
One point of the TRIAL is to determine if that will be enough to be effective.
Just because you aren't in that subset doesn't invalidate the trial any more than the fact that I don't ride a bike makes cycle lanes useless.
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It's not compulsory so if you don't have a smart phone or don't want to download the app you don't have to. I have a smartphone, I find it very useful for a number of things but I won't be downloading the app, I wouldn't feel particularly comfortable with it but also as I haven't been within a million miles of anyone (OK, slight exaggeration), it wouldn't have anything to work on.
I will be downloading the app as soon as it becomes available, I have to visit the supermarket once a week for shopping and the idiots in there think social distances ends when they walk through the door (they queue halfway round the carpark 2 metres apart then barge past in the isles).
I would rather know if I had been in contact with anyone with the virus as then I could distance myself from my wife and disabled granddaughter.
If the government want to track me through they are welcome to they will not learn anything they do not already know by tracking my car's built in satnav, my car's built in emergency phone, my smart tv, my computer internet, my phone signal etc., etc., rather than be paranoid I would rather be informed.
Cheers
Guy
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My technical ability and knowledge is limited.
I haven't been anywhere very far from my home since 'before' lockdown began.
I do own a smartphone.
I don't break the law (any law) so don't have to worry about the authorities knowing when and where I have been.
I understand some have privacy concerns.
BUT
Though I have no idea if it will help, in the face of over 28,00 families having lost those they love -
I really can't see why I should not do whatever I can to 'possibly' help limit the loss of life. If the govt knows that I went to the Co-op to buy some eggs, I can live with that.
If downloading this app and making sure I take my phone with me wherever I go saves just ONE life
I will be one happy Boo - cos that life saved could just be one I know and care about deeply
Boo
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I don't see that a smart phone is a necessary accessory to a normal life.
Most younger people use their smart phones rather than laptops or tablets. None of my younger relatives bother with anything other than their phones, they access everything through it, so to them, it is a necessary accessory.
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My concerns are two fold -
1 - I don't like the idea of being tracked. It is nobody's business, except mine and my wife's, where I go and how long I spent there.
2 - I do not trust the Government to switch off the tracking when this is all over.
What a useful tool for the police next time a crime is committed, why would they want to give that up? And then how soon will some innocent person be arrested for a crime they did not commit. "You were right on the spot, you must be involved". "The innocent have nothing to fear" has been proved a thousand times to be nothing more than a cruel joke.
Regards
Chas
Good evening,
If you decide to use this app you would have to switch on "location" in your settings. The government, police or any other agency can not do this for you nor can they switch it off again. You do that that as well in your settings, assuming you have a smart phone. Many people already have that option switched on because quite a few apps use it.
John915
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To add to the above, on my phone you can control locations settings for each app individually in location settings, I think this is pretty common if not universal.
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The app doesn't trace where you are, or where you have been.
The government can not use it to know whether you have left your house, or where you have been
No data is stored.
All it does is highlight whether you have been close to someone who later self-reports as having symptoms of COVID19 so that you can take appropriate action. It's optional, too. Nobody has to use it who doesn't want to.
As a sneaky way of the government keeping tabs on us, it's a pretty useless design.
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Back again,
It can only tell if you have been nr someone who has the virus if they know where at least one of you is located.
John915
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Back again,
It can only tell if you have been nr someone who has the virus if they know where at least one of you is located.
John915
Yes, but it works by bluetooth technology, not GPS. It records the fact that you are in proximity, but not where you are.
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I suspect that the whole exercise will be a waste of time and prove yet again that our leaders are clueless.
The only way out of lockdown is to come out and see what happens or wait for either a vaccine or an effective medicine. We would never have gone into lockdown in the first place if the NHS had been maintained at a level to function adequately and if successive governments had taken any notice of warnings that social care was being neglected to the point of near- extinction. Even after the virus is (if it ever is) brought under control, I doubt that anything will change.
I said at the start of all this that we should expect the NHS to protect us, not for us to have to protect the NHS because its been so badly funded and is top heavy with overpaid bureaucrats.
One other point: 26,000 deaths is tragic in any circumstances but according to the ONS there were an estimated 23,200 'excess winter deaths' in 2018/19 and that was 'significantly lower' than the two previous years. You have to question whether we've unnecessarily backed ourselves into a corner and whether lockdown was ever the answer.
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As I understand it, the bluetooth only tells them who was close to to a sufferer. But bluetooth is very close range so they need your location as well othereise it's pointless.
Only works anyway if your bluetooth is on. I don't use it but do have location switched on for maps.
John915
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The only way out of lockdown is to come out and see what happens
You only have to get your popcorn and watch America for that. They are quite happy to sacrifice thousands of lives so that they can get a haircut and play golf. I feel so grateful every day that I live in a country where we all actually like each other and every life is valuable.
One other point: 26,000 deaths is tragic in any circumstances but according to the ONS there were an estimated 23,200 'excess winter deaths' in 2018/19 and that was 'significantly lower' than the two previous years. You have to question whether we've unnecessarily backed ourselves into a corner and whether lockdown was ever the answer.
Respiratory diseases remained the leading cause of EWM in 2018 to 2019, with 48.2% (8,900 excess winter deaths (EWD)) and 39.6% (600 EWD) more respiratory deaths in the winter months compared with the non-winter months in England and Wales respectively. This accounted for 40.6% of all EWD in England and 42.9% of all EWD in Wales.
Dementia and Alzheimer’s disease accounted for 18.7% and 21.4% of all EWD in England and Wales respectively in the winter of 2018 to 2019, with 22.1% (4,100 EWD) and 30.0% (300 EWD) more deaths occurring in the winter months than the non-winter months.
Circulatory diseases accounted for 22.4% and 14.3% of all EWD in England and Wales respectively, with 12.8% (4,900 EWD) and 7.2% (200 EWD) more deaths occurring in the winter months than the non-winter months.
Respiratory diseases are ALL respiratory diseases, not just those caused by influenza.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pez/
Public Health England told ITV News: "The number of flu cases and deaths due to flu-related complications varies each flu season.
"The average number of deaths in England for the last five seasons, 2014/15 to 2018/19, was 17,000 deaths annually.
"This ranged from 1,692 deaths last season, 2018/19, to 28,330 deaths in 2014/15."
The statistics for the 'flu season are from October to May. More than 28,000 people with COVID-19 have now died in the UK in just a few months and that is with all the mitigation measures now in place.
Debra :)
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I suspect that the whole exercise will be a waste of time and prove yet again that our leaders are clueless.
The only way out of lockdown is to come out and see what happens or wait for either a vaccine or an effective medicine.
It has worked well for those Asian countries which developed a similar app after Sars.
We would never have gone into lockdown in the first place if the NHS had been maintained at a level to function adequately and if successive governments had taken any notice of warnings that social care was being neglected to the point of near- extinction. Even after the virus is (if it ever is) brought under control, I doubt that anything will change.
Sorry but that is simply nonsense, we were actually very well prepared compared with many other countries. Yes it is true we were not prepared for Covid-19 but it did not exist 6 months ago.
I said at the start of all this that we should expect the NHS to protect us, not for us to have to protect the NHS because its been so badly funded and is top heavy with overpaid bureaucrats.
Protesting the NHS means protecting ourselves by allowing the NHS to cope with demand rather than the hospitals treating patients on the floor like hospitals over the world
One other point: 26,000 deaths is tragic in any circumstances but according to the ONS there were an estimated 23,200 'excess winter deaths' in 2018/19 and that was 'significantly lower' than the two previous years. You have to question whether we've unnecessarily backed ourselves into a corner and whether lockdown was ever the answer.
Yes if you take certain areas out of the picture lockdown has been very successful, there are a few areas where the people did not follow the rules but in the main it has been a success.
Cheers
Guy
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The only way out of lockdown is to come out and see what happens or wait for either a vaccine or an effective medicine.
One other point: 26,000 deaths is tragic in any circumstances but according to the ONS there were an estimated 23,200 'excess winter deaths' in 2018/19 and that was 'significantly lower' than the two previous years. You have to question whether we've unnecessarily backed ourselves into a corner and whether lockdown was ever the answer.
Hi
MERS and SARS
Regarding MERS (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome) and SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) there is still NO vaccine.
MERS (2012) is a Coronavirus relative of the current Covid-19 family.
Lockdown - UK
The Coronavirus models from SAGE before UK Lockdown
Estimated deaths with UK Lockdown 20,000 Deaths [we have passed that now and not reached 1 August 2020 yet].
No UK Lockdown 510,000 [yes over half a million] UK deaths by August 2020.
Forget some of the media reporting, these are nasty easily transferrable viruses!
Every possible action (or inaction) or alternative choice we had over Coronavirus at the start, will result in a negative outcome for somebody.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, springs to mind.
Mark
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I have downloaded the app here in Australia. For a similar reason to Guy, I would rather know than not. I went shopping yesterday so will let you know if someone comes knocking on my door to demand why I was out. :o All these problems were discussed at length in the Australian media before its release. There have been scams appearing, but they are just that, scams and could go to anyone’s phone.
Victoria has committed to testing 100,000 people in two weeks (out of 5 million plus) before deciding which restrictions to lift.
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Looking at Mike’s diagram I see it asks you to report if you are diagnosed with CV. The problem here as I see it, is that you are only diagnosed if you are admitted to hospital or if you manage to get tested. There could be a lot of people who get it mildly but aren’t officially diagnosed. However if they pass it on, the next person could be badly affected. So are they going to accept self diagnosis, in which case there could be a lot of false reports judging by how many of those actually tested at the moment are coming back negative.
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To be much use it will also require swab tests to be turned around quicker. A family member was waiting 5 or 6 days
Completely agree, my daughter's took 6 days and I only got the results because I chased them.
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I can't really see this working as there are going to be a goodly number of people who will not use the app, for whatever reason. Could it be that a majority of those people test positive but others will never know as the app has not been used by them.
I read somewhere that this has been tried in Singapore and only 17% participated.
Pheno
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As I understand it, with the Australian app, after a positive diagnosis, it is the health department which will request permission from the person who has tested positive, to contact anyone (who has the app), to inform them that they have been in close contact with someone who has been diagnosed with the virus, so they can watch for symptoms, get tested and/or self isolate.
It is not up to people to admit that they have tested positive - it comes through the official health channels.
Currently, anyone who tests positive is interviewed to try to determine where they have been and who they may have been in contact with. The app makes this process easier.
The problem is those who are asymptomatic, anyone with false positives, false negatives and potentially people refusing to allow the heath dept to contact other people they have been in contact with. Still, if it is something that may help so that has to be a good thing.
I don’t know if it is true or not, but apparently the Chinese had a similar app which is apparently how they have been able to get back to apparent normality so quickly. I don’t know if that is or was compulsory for all citizens.
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I'm not worried about the spying aspect, but I am concerned about those who would like to have this app , but simply cannot afford a posh phone or contract or who live in our rural areas where the signal is rubbish. There are black spots near us when our daughter phones and we can guess she's at one of several such black spots.
I have a smartphone but my husband doesn't as he couldn't manage one - his own admission. So whilst I can be tracked, he can't.
Also I'm sure that having Bluetooth on will drain the phone battery so I'll need to watch that aspect.
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My post was originally to speculate that some politicians are out of touch with the lives of ordinary people who get up, go to work at some boring job, come home, eat do the housework and go to bed.
I will leave you all to your discussion, keep it polite :).
Mike
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My post was originally to speculate that some politicians are out of touch with the lives of ordinary people who get up, go to work at some boring job, come home, eat do the housework and go to bed.
I will leave you all to your discussion, keep it polite :).
Mike
I totally agree with you, Mike. I'll leave others to it as well because every time I hazard an opinion on this subject I am put in my place. I don't expect many people to agree with me as I tend to be too outspoken for my own good sometimes, but I don't expect to be told i'm 'speaking' nonsense by someone signing of with an insincere 'cheers'.
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Apparently in 2019, 55.5 million people in the UK owned a smart phone, so if even half of those downloaded the App it would be enough for it to work for tracking.
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deleted,I made a complete mess of it.
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Looking at Mike’s diagram I see it asks you to report if you are diagnosed with CV. The problem here as I see it, is that you are only diagnosed if you are admitted to hospital or if you manage to get tested. There could be a lot of people who get it mildly but aren’t officially diagnosed. However if they pass it on, the next person could be badly affected. So are they going to accept self diagnosis, in which case there could be a lot of false reports judging by how many of those actually tested at the moment are coming back negative.
Even the swab test has a 30% false negative result, if people are clinically positive for covid in terms of symptoms and particularly the distinctive chest x-ray changes medics tend to retest people presenting like this and having an initial negative swab. Having said that I'll stand by what I said, that we need testing to be in place and more efficient for contact tracing as proposed to really work. Staff taking the swabs need effective training as poor technique can lead to a false negative. despite the claims of super labs we still need to increase lab capacity as even when only testing hospital inpatients it can easily take a couple of days. It needs to be easier to access testing, most people who have had the test out in the community have had to drive miles (up to 100mile round trip defeating purpose of cutting down travel), not what you need when unwell. In fact it could discourage people from taking up testing if they're lucky to have a mild case. Look at all those who cannot drive.
Having to have your bluetooth on at all times also reduces the practicality of the app as it drains batteries faster so the phone wouldn't remain on long enough for someone to work a whole shift at work. Lets face it those that are still having to leave the house to work are at statistically higher risk of coming into contact with the virus.
As for damned if we do damned if we don't if we hadn't had some form of lockdown the death rate would be so high because the system wouldn't cope. Many of those who've recovered wouldn't have as they would not have had the treatment they did. We nearly ran out of oxygen as it was, can you imagine if the numbers infected were even high so more requiring oxygen, fewer people to administer, deliver and process the oxygen for medical use as they too were ill. People dying at an even higher rate than they are now of other conditions as there wouldn't be a reduced service but no service at all as there would be literally no one to deliver it. The economy would not have done unscathed with that number of deaths, bereavements and sickness level within the workforce.
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Actually on reflection another flaw is asking the person to report that they have been diagnosed with covid. Some people won't bother and others may be too ill to do so. A much more efficient method would be for the test to be linked to a code from their phone anonymously so that alerts were generated automatically instead of waiting for a sick person to input data. I know by definition those who download the app are statistically more likely to be motivated but many will download with good intentions and then ignore.
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I downloaded the app a couple of days ago - obviously I had to turn on bluetooth (which I have always had turned off).
So far my battery is not noticeably running down any faster than it does with normal use. :)
Self reporting via the app if you test positive, I think will be a bit hit and miss.
This is how ours works:
https://www.health.gov.au/resources/apps-and-tools/covidsafe-app
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If you are tested positive you are asked to upload the data from your phone. Our app simply says "Has a health official asked you to upload your data?" and you just tap on 'Upload my data'.
Debra :)
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If you are tested positive you are asked to upload the data from your phone. Our app simply says "Has a health official asked you to upload your data?" and you just tap on 'Upload my data'.
Debra :)
Still I think the app perhaps generating a QR code scanned at testing enabling automatic upload would streamline the system and incase the results available in a timely manner.
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I think you are right Pharma. The app won’t work as well without increased testing and easier access to it.
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Just want to make it clear I have no problem with the concept in fact I am all for it in principal and believe it is the only way forward. I just have some issues with the practicalities of their proposals and don't have sufficient faith in their management of the situation.
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Maybe the experts can answer this for me.
We are in a queue of cars waiting to turn right, next to me is my passenger with phone switched on.
It’s a long wait, during that time as many as 100 cars pass closely by in the inside lane.
If those drivers have their phone on will that record as within two metres of my passenger.
Mike
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The app notes the distance and duration of contact and I believe it is a minimum contact of about 15 minutes within 2 metres but don't quote me on that.
Debra :)
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A guess rather than an expert opinion:
I can't comment on the UK app but the Australian one only records information about contact with someone within 1.5 metres for 15 minutes or more.
If people are in traffic beside you and are within this range (and you both have your windows open) it may be that the virus could pass from them to you or your passenger. Some people cough, splutter and spit out of car windows.
It is probably unlikely that all drivers/passengers of the 100 cars in the lane beside you will each stop that close to you for the designated period of time.
:)
Added: snap Debra
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The UK Government App must be special?
A Bluetooth phone has just sent me a photo by Bluetooth over 10 metres away (once I'd had instructions again and my device set up for me again) from outside the house with doors and windows closed.
Mark
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Maybe they are limiting the range or using some sort of proximity technology to get that 1.5m or closer range? :-\ They use something like this to send ads and special offers for specific shops to your phone as you walk past .... maybe it's something along these lines used in the coronavirus apps?
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Maybe they are limiting the range or using some sort of proximity technology to get that 1.5m or closer range? :-\ They use something like this to send ads and special offers for specific shops to your phone as you walk past .... maybe it's something along these lines used in the coronavirus apps?
They were talking about length of time in contact so if passing at speed of a car wouldn't trigger but not sure if this is built into this app.
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15 minutes :o :, that makes a complete mockery of social distancing outdoors, where, we have been told, a mere casual 10 seconds as someone passes by is sufficient.
I am mystified, I do wonder if governments are clutching at straws, guided by their advisers, none of whom seem to agree.
Can I have a bottle of Madagascan juice please, it’s likely as useful as anything else. ;D ;D
Mike
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UK Health Minister explaining the IoW Test, Track & Trace Pilot Scheme now on BBC 1.
Does not mean an end to Social Distancing and Stay at Home for the moment.
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I don't think I'm really a technophobe, I had a mobile 'phone in the 1990s, an analogue one, so far back, and I happily use a p.c., and a laptop, and a tablet, and quite a lot of complex software, but I've never felt the need to get a smart phone myself.
I used to have my mobile on contract, but now it's a simple PAYG on, as I use one only for making and receiving calls, occasional texts, I don't even use my current one's camera, as I always have a decent camera in my bag or pocket, have carried one even since pre- digital days.
I have nothing against "them" knowing where I am, or who I have just lingered with, but have no intention of replacing what I've got with a smart phone. OH has a natty smartphone, but the number of times he leaves it at home, or in his car, or the battery is down, makes me suspect he'll be as useless as me to the statistics, but for different reasons!
The theory sounds great, but I suspect it'll not work well enough to be deeply useful.
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Having to have your bluetooth on at all times also reduces the practicality of the app as it drains batteries faster so the phone wouldn't remain on long enough for someone to work a whole shift at work.
According to Matt Hancock, the App has been designed not to drain your battery. I presume this is one of the reasons they are trialling it before it goes nationwide in a few weeks.
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Having to have your bluetooth on at all times also reduces the practicality of the app as it drains batteries faster so the phone wouldn't remain on long enough for someone to work a whole shift at work.
According to Matt Hancock, the App has been designed not to drain your battery. I presume this is one of the reasons they are trialling it before it goes nationwide in a few weeks.
The app itself perhaps but just having my bluetooth switched on drains my battery.
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According to the press conference, the relatively low level of smartphone use among residents of the Isle of Wight (due to demographics) is one of its attractions as a trial site for the app - in that if it achieves its objectives in a low-smartphone community it’ll work anywhere.
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Having to have your bluetooth on at all times also reduces the practicality of the app as it drains batteries faster so the phone wouldn't remain on long enough for someone to work a whole shift at work.
According to Matt Hancock, the App has been designed not to drain your battery. I presume this is one of the reasons they are trialling it before it goes nationwide in a few weeks.
The app itself perhaps but just having my bluetooth switched on drains my battery.
The bluetooth portion of the app is specially developed to have low power requirements so it does not run down your battery.
If you think about it they do not want the bluetooth to have a powerful signal as that would be able to connect over a large radius, they only want a very limited range for these purposes.
Cheers
Guy
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15 minutes :o :, that makes a complete mockery of social distancing outdoors, where, we have been told, a mere casual 10 seconds as someone passes by is sufficient.
I am mystified, I do wonder if governments are clutching at straws, guided by their advisers, none of whom seem to agree.
Can I have a bottle of Madagascan juice please, it’s likely as useful as anything else. ;D ;D
Mike
It is probably a steep learning curve for everyone including governments, their advisors, health professionals, so not surprising there are mixed messages .... however they say that using a tracing app is how China managed to get back to normality relatively quickly - similarly with Singapore (there are probably other countries who are also using this technology).
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One of the things that concerns me a bit about this app is the proportion of people who develop symptoms, get tested, and are then found not to have the virus.
I've only done a quick search, and the first figures I found were those published today for Scotland. These show that to date (5 May), NHS labs in Scotland have tested 63,311 people, of whom 50,874 were confirmed negative and were 12,437 positive. These can be found at https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/ - though it looks as though the page is updated every day.
In very round numbers, it appears that about 80% of those tested will not have the virus, and if the same is true when the app is rolled out, then unless I'm mistaken, the following will happen:
Someone has symptoms and notifies the app. All their contacts are told of this and have to self-isolate. But there's only an 1 in 5 chance that the first person actually has the virus, so 5 times as many people will be in 14 days' full isolation as need to be - and since they will probably have had to do this at short notice, they might not be able to arrange food deliveries etc. (And this assumes that the app is reporting contacts accurately; if it's too sensitive or picks up people the other side of walls, the numbers affected by this will be immense.)
Please can someone explain whether this has been properly thought through? Or have I missed something?
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One of the things that concerns me a bit about this app is the proportion of people who develop symptoms, get tested, and are then found not to have the virus.
….
Please can someone explain whether this has been properly thought through? Or have I missed something?
Your contact data is only sent out when you have been diagnosed with COVID19, not when you have symptoms.
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Good afternoon,
Maybe i'm wrong but I thought they contacted those shown as being in close proximity. Then suggested getting tested if they also show symptons.
John915
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From what they said on the radio today, what will happen on the IOW is that if you think you have symptoms you use the App to inform the the health authority. They send some one round to test you immediately and the results will be known in 24 hours. If you are then shown to be positive, the App then sends an alert to everyone that you have been in contact with for a significant time, to warn them to self isolate. Those people will not know who you are.
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Have you seen the report about the fact that the UK are using a different app to the rest of Europe and they are not compatible. There is a suggestion that Britons will not be able to go abroad without self isolating for 14 days on arrival because the other countries won't be able to notify you or be notified about you due to the discrepancy in technology.
How true I don't know, but hopefully it will also happen the other way around with people wantng to come into the UK.
Pheno
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Have you seen the report about the fact that the UK are using a different app to the rest of Europe and they are not compatible. There is a suggestion that Britons will not be able to go abroad without self isolating for 14 days on arrival because the other countries won't be able to notify you or be notified about you due to the discrepancy in technology.
How true I don't know, but hopefully it will also happen the other way around with people wantng to come into the UK.
Pheno
That wouldn't surprise me, they a have a track record of deliberately doing something differently just to be different. They also have a track record of producing IT that is incompatible with other systems.
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One of the things that concerns me a bit about this app is the proportion of people who develop symptoms, get tested, and are then found not to have the virus.
….
Please can someone explain whether this has been properly thought through? Or have I missed something?
Your contact data is only sent out when you have been diagnosed with COVID19, not when you have symptoms.
That's not what it says at https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer -
Once you’ve installed the app on your phone, it can detect (using Bluetooth) if other phones that are also running the app are nearby.
Importantly, the app knows how close it has been to other phones running the app, and for how long. This allows the app to build up an idea of which of these phones owners are most at risk.
If you then use the app to report that you’re experiencing coronavirus symptoms, all the phones that have been nearby will receive an alert from the app.
Users reading the alert will now know they may have been near a person with coronavirus, and can then self-isolate.
If the NHS later discovers that your diagnosis was wrong (and your reported symptoms are not coronavirus), the other users will receive another alert, letting them know if they can stop self-isolating.
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You can discuss the pros and cons and think of all the negatives and positives, together with all the whys and wherefores, until the cows come home but the long and short of it is, if you have a smart phone, do I sign up or not?. Some will, some won't. I'm not signing up because I don't possess a smart phone because, like others, I do not feel that it would somehow make my life immeasurably better.
:)
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I don't have a smartphone either, but I was trying to imagine what it would be like to have to go into full isolation when there was an 80% chance of it being a false alarm.
And what about workplaces - each time a member of staff gets a cough, the whole workforce might potentially have to isolate, so they'd probably have to close down until the test results came back. 80% chance of going back to work then - and next day someone else gets a cough. Repeat ad nauseam...?
OK, we've got to get out of lockdown somehow, but is this really the best way to do it?
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If you then use the app to report that you’re experiencing coronavirus symptoms, all the phones that have been nearby will receive an alert from the app.
Users reading the alert will now know they may have been near a person with coronavirus, and can then self-isolate.
That is absolutely ridiculous if that happens, as quite a large percentage of those tested prove to be negative. So if the app reacts when people think they have the symptoms and warns people, everyone could be in and out of isolation like a yoyo. People will soon get fed up with that and will either switch it off or ignore it. Far better to wait 24 hours until it is confirmed or otherwise. That is what a health official on the IOW said was happening.
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So who's right?
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I don't have a smartphone either, but I was trying to imagine what it would be like to have to go into full isolation when there was an 80% chance of it being a false alarm.
I really don't think that is going to happen - see my earlier post. Officials on the IOW said people won't be alerted until the original person has been tested and proved positive.
If the government really wants this to work, perhaps someone needs to invent a small device that works by bluetooth and which could be issued free to everyone. Or we could all be injected with a bluetooth chip. :D :D
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Good evening,
I listened to this on the radio today as well;
1, you download app which works on a very low level bluetooth.
2, you switch on your bluetooth and the report button. Without doing this it will not work.
3, they do not know where you are from this app.
4, if you show any symptoms you press the report button. Someone will come to your house and test you.
5, if negative no further action is taken, if positive you will be informed of this and be told which phones with this app were near you.
6, you, no one else, will press the inform button which has activated on your phone. This sends a warning to those phones.
7, they will be told by the app to isolate.
Think that was about it, don't think i've missed anything.
John915
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There will be millions of people reporting symptoms and requesting tests if the app works this way? Who will visit each person in their homes to test them?
I wonder what would happen is someone reported symptoms, tested negative, but in a week or two felt ill again. Would someone be dispatched to their house again with another test kit? We all know there are people who call emergency services unnecessarily, and I can see this being abused or people wanting to be safe rather than sorry even if they only have a sniffle.
I understand that with more cases than we have in Australia, the UK may need their app to work differently, but ours only notifies people who have been close to a confirmed case. We do not have a “report” button on our app. They do not know where we are when we have Bluetooth turned on. We are not told who (or which phones) we have come into contact with. We do not have an “inform” button.
Could the “inform” button be used to panic people intentionally if someone had a mind to do that even if they had not tested positive for the virus?
Interesting to see the different way these apps are working. :)
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Good morning,
The inform buttonn only becomes active to use if you have tested positive so cannot be misused.
John915
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Good morning,
The inform buttonn only becomes active to use if you have tested positive so cannot be misused.
John915
That makes sense.
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if positive you will be informed of this and be told which phones with this app were near you.
6, you, no one else, will press the inform button which has activated on your phone. This sends a warning to those phones.
This seems highly unlikely and breaches everyone's privacy. I don't think anyone understands how it actually works and are just giving their own version.
Debra :)
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My understanding is that the app is to make it easier for those who are tracing contacts of positive cases. Now they have to interview, hope they remember where they were, trace people who may have been nearby in the right time frame. With the app they can download the information of where the patient has been and correlate those who were nearby.
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I wonder what would happen is someone reported symptoms, tested negative, but in a week or two felt ill again. Would someone be dispatched to their house again with another test kit? We all know there are people who call emergency services unnecessarily, and I can see this being abused or people wanting to be safe rather than sorry even if they only have a sniffle.
I have said this all along. Just because someone is tested on Monday and hears later that week that they are negative does not mean that they didn't contract the virus on Tuesday.
Rishile
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I wonder what would happen is someone reported symptoms, tested negative, but in a week or two felt ill again. Would someone be dispatched to their house again with another test kit? We all know there are people who call emergency services unnecessarily, and I can see this being abused or people wanting to be safe rather than sorry even if they only have a sniffle.
I have said this all along. Just because someone is tested on Monday and hears later that week that they are negative does not mean that they didn't contract the virus on Tuesday.
Rishile
The early symptoms can just as easily be 100s of other viruses so someone could quite easily have genuine concerns that it may be Covid when it's not and then contract it later. There's also the chance of a false negative.
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if positive you will be informed of this and be told which phones with this app were near you.
6, you, no one else, will press the inform button which has activated on your phone. This sends a warning to those phones.
This seems highly unlikely and breaches everyone's privacy. I don't think anyone understands how it actually works and are just giving their own version.
Debra :)
I agree with you, Debra. Even government officials vary their explanations.
I cannot see why we haven't used the South Korean app. Tried and tested by a country that is the world leader in fighting the virus. Why are we re-inventing the wheel?
Regards
Chas
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The inform buttonn only becomes active to use if you have tested positive so cannot be misused.
Please could you give an authoritative source for that?
The page I quoted last night (https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer) is still saying the following:
If you then use the app to report that you’re experiencing coronavirus symptoms, all the phones that have been nearby will receive an alert from the app.
Users reading the alert will now know they may have been near a person with coronavirus, and can then self-isolate.
Nothing there about waiting for a positive test result - quite the opposite. And it's not "they have been near..." but "they may have been near..."
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if positive you will be informed of this and be told which phones with this app were near you.
6, you, no one else, will press the inform button which has activated on your phone. This sends a warning to those phones.
This seems highly unlikely and breaches everyone's privacy. I don't think anyone understands how it actually works and are just giving their own version.
Debra :)
The version that John and I gave came directly from the Health Authority on the IOW where it is being tested, so I presume that is what is happening with that one.
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The inform buttonn only becomes active to use if you have tested positive so cannot be misused.
Please could you give an authoritative source for that?
The page I quoted last night (https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer) is still saying the following:
If you then use the app to report that you’re experiencing coronavirus symptoms, all the phones that have been nearby will receive an alert from the app.
Users reading the alert will now know they may have been near a person with coronavirus, and can then self-isolate.
Nothing there about waiting for a positive test result - quite the opposite. And it's not "they have been near..." but "they may have been near..."
The other thing the app does not know is what sort of environment the possible contact may have been in. It does not know if you were inside a building with little ventilation, well ventilated or even outdoors outdoors. And by the time you may exhibit symptoms will people be able to answer questions about possible contacts up to 14 days before.
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The inform buttonn only becomes active to use if you have tested positive so cannot be misused.
Please could you give an authoritative source for that?
The page I quoted last night (https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer) is still saying the following:
If you then use the app to report that you’re experiencing coronavirus symptoms, all the phones that have been nearby will receive an alert from the app.
Users reading the alert will now know they may have been near a person with coronavirus, and can then self-isolate.
Nothing there about waiting for a positive test result - quite the opposite. And it's not "they have been near..." but "they may have been near..."
snip
And by the time you may exhibit symptoms will people be able to answer questions about possible contacts up to 14 days before.
That is the advantage of the app, it records every other app user you have had contact with during the relevant time period.
Cheers
Guy
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The version that John and I gave came directly from the Health Authority on the IOW where it is being tested, so I presume that is what is happening with that one.
Strange - the Isle of Wight NHS Trust website has this to say:
When someone reports symptoms through the app, it will detect any other app users that the person has been in significant contact with over the past few days, including unknown contacts such as someone they may have sat next to on public transport. The app will be able to anonymously alert these contacts and provide advice, including how to get a test to confirm whether or not they do have COVID19....
As the integrated service develops, everyone who reports symptoms, including app users, will also be asked to record recent contacts using an online service (or through a telephone interview if they prefer), so that contact tracers can reach all contacts who may be at risk, whether or not those contacts are app users. Contacts will then be alerted either by the app or by email/telephone - advising them to self-isolate or offering public health advice.
Source: https://www.iow.nhs.uk/news/CORONAVIRUS-TEST-TRACK-AND-TRACE-PLAN-LAUNCHED-ON-ISLE-OF-WIGHT.htm
Again - nothing about waiting for test results ???
It may be the only tool available, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. As currently described:
(a) it can't handle people who have the virus but don't have symptoms, because they won't have any reason to report themselves; and depending on which scientist you believe, asymptomatic cases might vastly outnumber those with symptoms
(b) if the Scottish figures can be extrapolated to the rest of the UK, the accuracy of self-reporting of symptoms compared to actual test results might be as low as 20%
Does any of this matter?
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No point in all these what ifs etc at the moment as it is all supposition. We need to wait for some users on the IoW to report on how they used it, how that data was used and if others used it in a different manner and ultimately did it prevent anybody from getting the virus.
If there is no prevention involved what use is it simply to know that you might get it if you can't do anything about that as you have already been exposed. You could be self isolating for evermore if you do 14 days each time you get an alert, having just popped out on day 15 for the essentials and potentially be in the contact radius of a trigger on that day and be required to self isolate again. It might be worse than lockdown, where at least everybody else should be in the same boat, one could be self isolating for a fortnight every fortnight.
Pheno
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It sounds like that could either cause mass panic if people are told that they may been in contact with someone who possibly thought they may have symptoms ....
or .... there is the danger that people might become blasé if they are contacted repeatedly due to having been in contact with someone who possibly thought they may have symptoms. :-\
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Interesting piece here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/06/critical-mass-of-android-users-needed-for-success-of-nhs-coronavirus-contact-tracing-app
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Interesting piece here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/06/critical-mass-of-android-users-needed-for-success-of-nhs-coronavirus-contact-tracing-app
There is an article on the Daily Mail site that says the app does no work properly on iPhones because it needs the phone to be unlocked for it to work. Users on the Isle of Wight are reporting that it drains the battery according to the same article.
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Does anyone else feel like they're sitting in one of those deckchairs on the Titanic?!!!
Its all getting very silly..... please can we have something completely different now.
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Does anyone else feel like they're sitting in one of those deckchairs on the Titanic?!!!
Its all getting very silly..... please can we have something completely different now.
::) Don’t worry, I’ll hold your hand as the ship goes down , social distancing won’t be a problem by that stage ;D
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The inform buttonn only becomes active to use if you have tested positive so cannot be misused.
Please could you give an authoritative source for that?
The page I quoted last night (https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer) is still saying the following:
If you then use the app to report that you’re experiencing coronavirus symptoms, all the phones that have been nearby will receive an alert from the app.
Users reading the alert will now know they may have been near a person with coronavirus, and can then self-isolate.
Nothing there about waiting for a positive test result - quite the opposite. And it's not "they have been near..." but "they may have been near..."
My information came from one of the people setting up the trial on the IofW. He was on radio Sussex/Surrey the day I posted the steps of using the app. He said you press the alert button which will have activated. Others say this will be automatically done by the app. You will not know who these people are or where they are. The app will only know them as a code given to each phone when you download and activate the app.
For those worried about big brother at westminster, they have nothing to do with the app. It is all run and controlled by the NHS IT people in charge. They will only know you as a code unless you report symptons. You will the be asked who and where you are for the tester to come and visit.
John915
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Does anyone else feel like they're sitting in one of those deckchairs on the Titanic?!!!
Its all getting very silly..... please can we have something completely different now.
At least the Titanic had some lifeboats, ours seem to have holes in them. ;D ;D ;D
Mike
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Oh dear, stop the boat .... I want to get off!!
TY