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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: jordanamelia on Monday 20 April 20 15:16 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I am struggling a bit with a branch of my family tree. I have little to no information about this side of my family as my Mum never knew her biological Dad - Allen John Edward Lowe. My Grandma remembers some bits but not much, she told me he was Scottish and that the whole family were born there and then came down to Barton/Urmston, Lancashire. So far I've learnt that Allen J E Lowe was actually born in Feb 1946 Barton, Lancashire and is also where his parents were married Edward Lowe and Sadie Monaghan in 1945. Edward Lowe also has also turned out to be from Lancashire (but there is a Catherine Elder, I believe to be Scottish who was his Mother) so I believe the connection to Scotland to be more with Sadie. Their marriage certificate lists Sadie's father as a William Monaghan - 'builders bricklayer' but doesn't say where either are from. Her death record however told me that Sarah Lowe died in 1974 and her birthday was 18th November 1919. On this information I went to Scotlands People and searched for Sarah Monaghan 1919 (I added give or take a few years just incase) I bought a bunch of credits and checked all available images of the certificates (there was some past 1920 that I couldn't view) and found one with a father listed as a 'William Monaghan' the only one out of the ones I could see. His occupation is listed different here but also could have changed within that time? I'm unsure.
The record lists a William Monaghan as the father, and a Margaret/Maggie McKenna as the mother - unmarried and there's something written under 'W.Monaghan' where other boxes have '(present)' written, can't make out what it says exactly but I'm presuming it's do with him not being present.
I can't be certain if this is my great grandmother but if anyone had any tips or ideas of where I can extend my search would be fantastic, thank you. I have attached the birth record I found to the post also.
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Is the person you mention born 1946 still alive? Rootschat has a no living persons policy so names and details of living persons are not allowed
Under W Monaghan it says father
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Is the person you mention born 1946 still alive? Rootschat has a no living persons policy so names and details of living persons are not allowed
Under W Monaghan it says father
No they aren't that's why I have no information.
And I know but underneath the word it says another three words which is what I can't make out
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The three words are Forthview Terrace Newm.... - I can't quite make out the last few letters. This is William Monaghan's address at the time of the birth.
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Newmills
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There is a Newmills near Dunfermline on the River Forth. Hence, the Forthview Terrace.
There is a Maggie McKenna, age 39, living in Torryburn, 1/2 mile from Newmills on 1911 census, married with her husband & children including a Maggie age 4.
1911 also has a William Monaghan in Cowdenbeath, age 13.
Sarah was born in Culross, Fife, about 2 miles from Newmills
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From the way that 1919 birth cert is written up, it would imply parents William and Margaret were not married at the time of this Sarah's birth.
If they had been married, you would expect to see the date and place of parents' marriage. Also, mother's details would normally be written as: Margaret Monaghan, maiden name (M. S.) McKenna.
I cannot see a marriage for a couple with these names on Scotlands People.
Monica
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Sarah was born in Culross, Fife, about 2 miles from Newmills
Actually, she was born not in the town of Culross itself, but in High Valleyfield in the parish of Culross, which is separated from Newmills in the parish of Torryburn only by the burn which also forms the boundary between Fife and Perthshire there.
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There is a Newmills near Dunfermline on the River Forth. Hence, the Forthview Terrace.
There is a Maggie McKenna, age 39, living in Torryburn, 1/2 mile from Newmills on 1911 census, married with her husband & children including a Maggie age 4.
1911 also has a William Monaghan in Cowdenbeath, age 13.
Sarah was born in Culross, Fife, about 2 miles from Newmills
Thank you! Wouldn't have been able to figure that one out, but lovely to put a place to a name now. Very interesting about the 1911 census, I have a strong feeling that is the correct Maggie. Hopefully when the 1921 census becomes available I can pin point Sadie and see if she lived with her mother or father or elsewhere.
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From the way that 1919 birth cert is written up, it would imply parents William and Margaret were not married at the time of this Sarah's birth.
If they had been married, you would expect to see the date and place of parents' marriage. Also, mother's details would normally be written as: Margaret Monaghan, maiden name (M. S.) McKenna.
I cannot see a marriage for a couple with these names on Scotlands People.
Monica
It definitely seems so! I didn't include the rest of the birth record of other families but this was the only one on the page like it. I have many questions now, I wonder how things unfolded, also wonder how many siblings she might have had altogether. I will have to patiently wait for the 1921 census for some insight.
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Some more info about the McKenna's that you may find useful later.
James Bow McKenna (Miner) married Maggie (Orr), 1893 in Dunfermline.
Their daughter, Maggie Orr McKenna (b. 1906) married George Stewart, age 36,(Farm Worker), 1933, Toryburn.
Her address was Grove Cottage, Newmills
Maggie died, age 71, in Elgin, 1978
Correction
Maggie's mother died 1935, age 63, in Dunfermline
James Bow McKenna died in Birse, Aberdeenshire, age 76, 1945
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The Maggie McKenna, b 1906, would only have been aged 13 in 1919. If it was to be the mother Margaret, her maiden name would need to be McKenna as she shows as married in the 1911 census you found.
Monica
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More info about the Monaghan's
The William Alexander Monaghan from the 1911 census in Cowdenbeath was the son of Wallace Monaghan & Elizabeth Orr.
Both Wallace and his sons were miners. Wallace was originally from Riccarton in Ayrshire but mining took the family to many parts of the country including Dalserf in Lanarkshire, where William was born in 1897.
Wallace married Elizabeth Orr, 1887, Dreghorn.
On the 1911 census, he has 7 sons & 1 daughter.
There is a death of a William Alexander Monaghan, born 28 Sept 1897, 2nd Q 1984 in Newcastle upon Tyne. (Date confirmed on William's birth cert)
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Hi Monica.
I know she was 13 but it is still possible. Unlikely to be her mother.
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We have learnt to think that anything is possible, Kloumann ;)
What a lot of work you have done on William Monaghan! Looks good for him :)
Monica
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Photo link to Forthview Terrace in Newmills
https://espc.com/property/80-forthview-terrace-newmills-dunfermline-ky12-8sx/35504459
Hi Monica,
Searched for other possible Maggie McKenna's without success.
Will it be 13 or 47. Need 1921 census to find out.
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A few edits on the possible William Monaghan above. William who married Sarah in Gateshead in 1921 was actually a Gateshead boy. Born on 4 March 1899, he died in Gateshead in January 1965. The middle initial of 'A' was for Andrew.
William Alexander Monaghan that you have, son of Wallace and Elizabeth (Orr) married in Cowdenbeath in September 1922 to a Margaret Nicol Henderson, daughter of a James Henderson, coal miner, and Annie Brown. Both gave a Cowdenbeath address at the time of their marriage. William aged 24 and Margaret aged 21.
Monica
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Thats great Monica. I will modify my post.
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Thank you very much for all of your responses. Today I've been rather puzzled - had a phone call with my Grandma to speak about Sadie, she remembers Sadie being "quite a bit" older than Eddie (Edward) when they married, and my Mum thinks she was in her 40s when Alan (her Dad) was born. I said I'd found 'Sarah Lowe' dying in Barton in 1974, with the birthday as 18 Nov 1919 - my Grandma said this was definitely her. Now the marriage certificate says Edward Lowe was 23 and next to Sadie Monaghan I believed it to be 23 also, but now my Grandma believes it says 33. Either way - if 33 in 1945, she would have been born in 1912, if she was 23 she would have been born in 1922... I've searched ScotlandsPeople for a Sarah and a Sadie Monaghan between 1911 and 1914 and there is no one with the father of William Monaghan, so I'm extremely confused at the moment. I'm about to search further back assuming she may have been in her 40s and see what comes up if not then perhaps 1919 Sadie/Sarah is her and for some reason there has been confusing in records with her birth year. She also told me that she had a brother 'Alan/Alen Monaghan' who had come to Urmston/Davyhulme with her, who married a Pauline and they had twins, I'm about to set out to look into him now, and initially before I was puzzled about birth year - if the 1919 Sarah is her then she must have gone with her father's family if she has a brother named Alan/Alen?
Sorry for the long winded message, this just got a bit confusing today! Will post a photograph of the marriage certificate and see what you think on the written ages if possible
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Another thing she spoke to me of is that Sadie was taught by nuns or went somewhere where nuns were in charge and it was known she'd had a horrid experience in this time, not sure if these were a type of school I could look into or not
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I think the Alan Monaghan is a 'red herring' Have a look for a marriage.
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I can rule out the Sarah from Scotland now.
She married in 1946 in Dunfermline to Edward Burke & died, Dunfermline in 1986.
Her age given at death was 72 which does not match her actual birth but the MMN is McKenna.
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If the Sarah from Scotland is not yours, how do you account for the fact that the DoB on Sarah Monaghan's birth certificate, 18 November 1919, exactly matches the DoB on the death certificate of Sarah Lowe?
Sarah Monaghan or Burke was 72 when she died in 1986. This means that the DoB on her death certificate is in 1913 or 1914.
There are two births of Sarah Monaghans in Scotland in 1913/1914. One in Dalziel and one in Troqueer.
There is a marriage of Christopher Monaghan to Mary McKenna in Dalziel in 1911. Mary McKenna, wife of Christopher Monaghan, died in Dunfermline in 1930, aged 36. Christopher Monaghan, widower of Mary McKenna, died in Dunfermline in 1952.
Therefore I don't think that the Sarah Monaghan or Burke who died in Dunfermline in 1986 aged 72 is the one who was born on 18 November 1919. You need to check the details on her marriage certificate or death certificate if only to eliminate her.
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Of course, you are right, Forfarian. The only way to confirm it is for Jordanamelia to apply for the Certificate(s)
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Thank you I will apply for the death death certificate. Her marriage certificate I will post a photograph of tomorrow to show the written ages to see what I mean about the 23/33 issue. I've found an electoral register for Urmston which is the area the family lived and my Grandma remembers meeting her Sadies brother.
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Hi Jordanamelia.
Not sure if you are aware or not but it is the policy of Rootchat not to post about persons who may still be alive.
I would advise you to remove some of your last post unless you know that they are deceased.
I had my knuckles rapped soon after joining.
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Ok thanks have changed it
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The electoral roll details you posted earlier, the birth year indicated showed 1941-2 I think. Maybe a nephew or other relative to Sadie perhaps?
Monica
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Could be nephew and being remembered as a brother perhaps! I've kept it in my notes as a thought. I've looked at nearly all birth records for Sarah Monaghan around the mentioned years and only the 18th Nov 1919 has a father of William. There is one record from 1922 which would match the year on her marriage certificate (23 in 1945) but oppose the 18 Nov 1919 on her death record, unsure if this could be a mistype up of '1922'. Unfortunately there's no certificate for the birth record so I can't see but it's for a 'Sarah Duffy Monaghan' in 1922 Ardoch. Which I believe is near Glasgow and my Grandma had mentioned a possibility of somewhere near there, but again it was a very long time ago and she wasn't certain.
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Could be nephew and being remembered as a brother perhaps! I've kept it in my notes as a thought. I've looked at nearly all birth records for Sarah Monaghan around the mentioned years and only the 18th Nov 1919 has a father of William. There is one record from 1922 which would match the year on her marriage certificate (23 in 1945) but oppose the 18 Nov 1919 on her death record, unsure if this could be a mistype up of '1922'. Unfortunately there's no certificate for the birth record so I can't see but it's for a 'Sarah Duffy Monaghan' in 1922 Ardoch. Which I believe is near Glasgow and my Grandma had mentioned a possibility of somewhere near there, but again it was a very long time ago and she wasn't certain.
Sarah Duffy Monaghan, mother's surname McChord, died in Falkirk in 1996 aged 74, so I think you can safely rule her out.
There is a certificate, but it's less than 100 years ago so it's not available online, and at the moment you can't order later certificates because Scotland's People is closed because of the coronavirus pandemic. It is not likely that 1922 on the certificate is wrong because records were collected annually. Far more likely that the age on her marriage certificate is wrong - she could be embroidering the truth, or the Registrar might have misread it or made a mistake.
Ardoch is not exactly 'near' Glasgow - it's almost 70 miles north-east, between Stirling and Perth.