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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Fresh Fields on Friday 10 April 20 23:51 BST (UK)
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Morning.
I find the attach plea for assistance interesting, because some time past I have read of similar accounts here in the Waikato. But at this time can not remember which piece of research I was doing when I came upon it.
Currently have too many open research projects on the go, to be adding another. But I am sure the forum will be able to track the family while in NZ.
Alan.
PS.
In a quick look have found several references to "Charles MYERS" but they don't appear to all be of the same person. There is an Archway reference to a Crown Grant in 1866-7 R25696012 and a Cambridge listing of Waikato Militia.
MYERS Charles
Charles was born 1827 in Spitalfield, Middlesex. He was an engineer, 5′ 7″ tall when he enlisted in the 3rd Waikato Militia 24 November 1863 in Nelson. He was a Private, Regiment number 948 and was granted one acre of land section 417 in Cambridge East and a farm section 16 at Ohaupo.
Edit by Moderator: topic title altered to include subjects name. Spades
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Alan.
There is no point in us helping as we have no way of contacting the gentleman concerned.It might pay you to notify him of your post here,
Cheers Janette
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Hello Jannette.
I have advised the editor, who has more important things on his mind at the moment. I had hoped that I could have found mention on line, so that I could have posted a link to the letter, but have failed to do so.
I have also attempted private contact, for more details, by a private method. So await any replies. I have read of something similar, but don't have the spare time to persue at the moment. The 43 Monmouthshires did serve in that time period, in the Bay of Plenty. There may be a connection to some Waikato records I have found, but would need more info, than the letter was talking about.
Alan.
PS The "more important things" is my assumption re COVID - 19, I have not been talking to him, I just sent email at the time of posting above.
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Alan, what was the name of the publication in which this request appeared please?
Minniehaha.
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Found him in Hughes', Discharged in New Zealand, page 33:
43rd Light Infantry.
Regimental No. 385
Rank: Private
Name: MYERS, Charles
Place of Birth: St Ellens, Jersey
Occupation: Shoemaker
Date of Enlistment: 31 May 1859
Place of Discharge: New Plymouth
Date of Discharge: 29 March 1866
Type of Discharge: Discharged on Payment (corrected)
Vessel: LJ (Lady Jocelyn, troop transport- sailed from Calcutta 8 Oct 1863,
arrived Auckland 10 Dec 1863)
Good on you for trying to contact the enquirer, Alan. I think we can find some more information for him.
Spades
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I am sure I have the man seeking the information but would like to know details of the publication with which he placed his request.
Minniehaha.
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I wonder if this is him?:
Hawke's Bay Herald, 21 September 1891 Page 3.
TOMB DESECRATION AT TE AUTE.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pbc/
I can't find any other articles using the full name.
Spades
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Some articles:
Arrival of the 'Lady Jocelyn'…….
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HBT18631218.2.17?end_date=31-12-1863&phrase=2&query=lady+jocelyn&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1863
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WC18631224.2.10?end_date=31-12-1863&phrase=2&query=lady+jocelyn&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1863
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18631205.2.18?end_date=31-12-1863&items_per_page=10&page=2&phrase=2&query=lady+jocelyn&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1863&type=ARTICLE
Minniehaha.
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I think it would help immensely if the enquirer was able to provide more biographical information, e.g. any known place of residence, place and year of marriage, name of wife and children, date and place of death, etc.
Spades
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He fought with the 43rd at Gate Pa and Te Ranga (April 1864), see link. This website records that he was discharged on 24 March 1869.
http://tauranga.kete.net.nz/documents/0000/0000/0387/Participants_at_Gate_Pa_and_Te_Ranga_1864.pdf
Spades
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There is this 1864 Army Correspondence entry. The reference to providing a substitute shows that both men elected to pay a man to take their place in the ranks, but this is puzzling because as far as I was aware this was only possible in colonial Militia or Volunteer units, not the British Army. Does it refer to another individual?
Archives New Zealand Register Room: 1864 Deputy Adjutant General [Army] Inwards Correspondence Register Reference AD 51/2 -
http://www.nzpictures.co.nz/dag1864.pdf
1864/2023 Jul 23 Privates MYERS & Green have provided substitutes (Major St John, Rhode’s Clearing)
Spades
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There was another Charles Myers on the scene around that time....
1860/8384 Myers Joseph Rachael Charles
1862/9770 Myers Sarah Elizabeth Rachael Charles
1864/10955 Myers Elizabeth Sarah Rachael Charles
Minniehaha.
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And this death
1869/2943 Myers Charles 36Y
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1899, Mrs Myers at Ohaupo
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WAIGUS18990615.2.40.6?end_date=31-12-1900&items_per_page=100&query=Myers+ohaupo&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1839
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Hi all.
Stuff is running with the request, and I saw it in the Waikato Times. From the quarter hour I spent over a cuppa having a look, I believe I found evidence of at least two Charles Myers, so sent off an email to the UK, to an address I found on line. However cold calling with my research email, is sometimes treated as SPAM, so uncertain if I will get a reply for more info, as aluded to in the article.
Thanks NZ forum for spending some time on it. What irks me is I have read an account some what along those lines, but can not remember if it was in South Auckland research or Waikato research of those times. Hopefully it will come back to me.
Alan.
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Working from forward backwards........
The article writer's grandmother:
Elizabeth MYERS, eldest daughter of Mr & Mrs L Myers, 15 Mary Street, St Kilda
married 24 Feb 1917 at the Bourke Street Synagogue in St Kilda (Vic, AU) to Joseph Abraham BRITTON, Elizabeth's sisters were bridesmaids, Ella & Marie. The couple had been engaged since 1914. (Src: Trove)
Return to England....
In 1920 Elizabeth (23) and Joseph A Britton (27) Com. Traveller returned to England from Australia along with their 15mth old daughter Esther. Ship Berrima, arrived London 4 Feb 1920. Later that year they had another daughter born, who was to become the mother of the writer
Src: Passenger List, Register Surname, Death index'
Elizabeth died 1988 Barnet (London) with recorded D0B as 20 Aug 1895. In 1939, "Betty" gave her YoB as 1897, but same day & month.
Elizabeth's parents at the same address she married from, from Electoral Rolls:
St Kilda, Victoria, at 15 Mary Street:
Louis Myers, Optician
Rebecca Myers
Marriage of Elizabeth's parents...
Louis Myers, son of Charles Myers
married Rebecca Saunders, daughter of Louis Saunders
On 1 July 1891, Adelaide, South Australia
Src: Marriage index
Newspaper report The Advertiser, Adelaide, Monday 6th July 1891
MYERS-SAUNDERS
On the 1st July at the residence of the bride's parents, by the reverend A T Boas, Louis, second son of Mr C Myers of Adelaide to Rebecca, eldest daughter of Mr L Saunders of Adelaide.
(Src: Trove)
There is a tree on Ancestry, which amongst much more, says - and refer Passenger List link:
Charles' wife Ellen and children arrive in NZ on 3 Jan 1866 on the 'Mataoka' (departed London 23 Sep 1865):
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~babznz/genealogy/matoaka.html
MYERS Elizabeth
MYERS Ellen
MYERS Henry
MYERS Louis
It also has a variety of other 'facts' - including that
Charles died in Australia, Adelaide July 1920
Charles was in the 43rd Reg
Charles was born in Spitalfields 1837 (not 1827)
Louis and Rebecca both died in England.
I stand to be corrected, but think there is a bit of mixing up, incl on that tree.......between different Charles Myers' and Louis/Rebecca...
However, what does seem to be proved is that in 1891 Charles Myers - the writer's 2xGreat-Grandfather - is firmly placed in Adelaide.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Charles' wife Ellen died in 1908 - he was widowed by her:
On 8th November 1908, at St Kilda, Victoria, Ellen, the beloved wife of Charles Myers, and mother of Henry, Louis, Samuel and Jack Myers. No Flowers.
On 8th November 1908, at her residence, Beaconsfield Parade, Melbourne, Helen wife of Charles Myers, and dearly beloved mother of Henry, Louis, Samuel and John Myers.
Src: Trove
Cheers
AMBLY
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Here is Charles' wife Cemetery listing....
Melbourne General Cemetery Carlton North Melbourne
Ellen Myers, died 10 Nov 1908 (aged 71-72), born abt 1836)
Plot: MGC-JEW-Comp-G-No-824
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/200181842
And buried in the same plot, is Charles 1923:
MGC-JEW-Comp-G-No-824
Charles Myers, died 23 Nov 1923 (aged 76-77 yrs, born abt 1846)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/192596941/charles-myers
Newspaper report:
On the 22nd November at his residence, Racecourse Road, Flemington, Melbourne, Charles Myers, aged 78 years. Src: Trove, Chronicle, 1 Dec 1923
Charles funeral was on 23rd November to which his friends were invited to attend at 3pm that day, by following his remains from his residence 136 Racecourse Road to the Melbourne General Cemetery . The undertaker was HENRY J R LEWIS, Head Office Johnson Street, Fitzroy, Northcote
It may be that the article writer is well aware of all this - and is only after the NZ Army side of things. However, the disagreement in ages - born 1827? 1837? 1846? and in birthplaces - Spitalfields? St Ellens, Jersey? makes it important we know it also ;D
Cheers,
AMBLY
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Great research, AMBLY, that helps a lot. 8)
The original newspaper article does specifically ask about Charles MYERS' time in New Zealand.
Known Possible NZ timeline of Charles MYERS:
Dec 1863 - arrived Auckland per Lady Jocelyn from Calcutta in a draft of 43rd Light Infantry Regiment.
April 1864 - fought at Gate Pa (Pukehinahina), Tauranga.
Jan 1866 - Charles' wife Ellen and children arrive in Auckland per Matoaka.
Mar 1866 - Took his discharge at New Plymouth.
I can't reconcile his arrival in New Zealand in Dec 1863 with his reported date of joining the 3rd Waikato Regiment a month earlier, Nov 1863. Again, are these two different individuals?
ADDENDUM: The Charles Myers of Nelson was an engineer, our subject was a shoemaker. I strongly suspect they were two different men, and this then calls into question the assertion that our subject served in the 3rd Waikato Regiment at all.
I think we should check the Nominal Roll of the 3rd Waikato Regiment when we get the opportunity.
Spades
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A very helpful article on the battles of Gate Pa and Te Ranga.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauranga_campaign
Spades
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That is correct spades, and for press and journal reports of the period, also use the spelling Turanga.
The spelling of Maori was far from standardised at that time.
Alan.
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EUREKA.
Person whom I can not name has made contact. Have advised that they enroll and take over the thread. In the mean time I can act as a go to.
Alan.
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Outstanding work, Alan! ;D 8)
I hope we have managed to find some new information for him.
Spades
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Thanks, all, for such rapid, and prolific, responses to my query, and apologies in advance if I am a bit slow, as this is my first time on Rootchat and although I do quite a lot of online research, I am nowhere near as expert in the intricacies of genealogy as you clearly all are!
It seems fairly certain that we have more than one Charles Myers here, including more than one in military service there. Mine was born in Whitechapel, London, not Jersey. Ambly (yesterday 14.22) certainly has the right family.
For the moment, the best I can do is to set out below what information I have on Myers and his family, which will hopefully set you on the right track as far as possible:some of you have already found a good deal of it
Much of the information below was found by the almost superhuman efforts of an Australian researcher with whom I made contact; but even she has not been able to ascertain where the Myers lived when they arrived, and therefore the accuracy of the family story.
Charles Myers, born Whitechapel, London, 1837. Continuous Service No. 14318. Volunteered Navy 22 July 1854. HMS Cossack., No. 7 on the Ship’s Book. Discharged 1855. Received the Baltic Medal; returned to England and married Ellen Samuel
A Myers went to New Zealand on the Reliance in 1864. She believes it was a troop ship, so it could be Charles on his way to fight in the Maori wars under Governor Grey, under whom he had served in the Crimea – Grey went on Cossack to New Zealand – possibly explaining how he ended up with land in NZ.
A Charles Myers received a medal for fighting in the Maori Wars from 11 Dec. 1863 to 24 March, 1866, fighting at Gate Pa and Te Ranga. He served as a Private in the 43rd [Monmouthshire] Regiment, regimental number 385. I have ascertained that the 43rd served in the 3rd Maori War, --- 1863 – March, 1866
There were members of a Myers family living in Hokitika (settled by Europeans in 1864 after the discovery of gold in early 1864) in 1864. However, I am told that this is in South island and that the main fighting was in North Island. One archivist has suggested that Charles might have gone to Hokitika in 1866 to look for gold, and found, in the 1866 directory, a John Myers, blacksmith and horseshoer, on Revell Street.
Whole family in London in the 1861 census. Lewis born 1864; wife Ellen and her children left London on the clipper Matoaka 1st September 1864, bringing immigrants from London and arriving Waiuku 3rd January, 1865. Possibly part of the Waikato immigration scheme, bringing over 4,000 settlers to Auckland 1864-5. There is a detailed account of the Matoaka’s voyage and arrival in the Southern Cross newspaper for 4th January, 1865, listing the passengers , including Ellen, Elizabeth, Honery[sic=Henry, possibly born June 1860, Lambeth, London, and died St.Kilda, Victoria, 1928] and Louis Myers. Samuel and Jack appear to have been born in NZ.
Children Jack born 1865 (where?), Samuel born New Zealand 1868.
He is probably not the Charles Myers in the 1880 electoral roll, as a Charles Myers went from NZ to Australia in 1878. There is also a possibility of a (?)brother and (?)sister travelling from England in 1877, and also Ellen and some of her children – did she return tom England for a while?
Charles died 27 July, 1920 and buried in Adelaide, and Ellen in Melbourne. His obituary in the Jewish Herald for 6th August, 1920 read:
“…. one of the oldest and best respected members of the Adelaide Hebrew Congregation. The late Mr. Myers saw war service in the Crimea, with the Naval Brigade, and in 1866[sic] emigrated to New Zealand, where he took part in the Maori War. Four sons survive him – Henry, Louis, Samuel and Jack…..”
Charles’ son - Louis (Lewis on birth certificate) Myers born ?London Jan. 1, 1864, or 1865 - very confused and possibly inaccurate – returned to England in 1920 with his daughter Elizabeth, my grandmother (Adelaide 1895-London 1988) after her marriage to Englishman Joseph Britton in Vitoria in 1917, and died in 1920s); he married Rebecca Saunders (Ballarat 1871 – London 1956).
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Welcome Michael.
Samuel born New Zealand 1868.
Do you have his birth cert?
Where was he born?
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A warm welcome to Rootschat Michael.... :)
This appears to be the only New Zealand birth for a Samuel Myers in 1868:
1868/13126 Myers Samuel Ellen Samuel
Mother Ellen, but father, Samuel.
Minniehaha.
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I don't have Charles' birth certificate - but he was born in Whitechapel, London, in 1837, and his obituary certainly gives the name of one of his sons as Samuel. As his wife was Ellen and her maiden name was Samuel, could there have been a drafting mistake at the time?
Michael
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Welcome Michael.
Glad you have joined, feel free to now run with the thread, as it is your quest, not mine. If it is to be found, the contributors herein will find it for you.
I will supply you with an ARCHWAY [our NZ Archives portal] listing of a Waikato Militia land grant application file, which I can photograph once the public are allowed to return, to the reading room at the NZ ARCHIVES, Auckland branch. If you see a Wellington held file of interest, our moderator “spades” will probably be able to help you out.
I will also supply you with some notes taken from recent research into the Journals of the Rev V LUSH an Anglican minister that details his monthly journeys out from Auckland to his parish base at Dury, and then covering all that South Auckland area, from there to Waiuku, down the coast to port Waikato and back via Tuakau to Dury, and home again. Will give you a great insight to what bush life was like in the mid to late 1860’s.
I will also keep looking for the accounts of friendly HOME INVASION by curious Maori, while the man of the humble home was away, or out for the day. I have read of several accounts, it’s just a case of trying to relocate them.
Housekeeping. Thread contributors live in differing time zones, and depending upon the zone that their computer is set at, can vary when online. Therefore when referring to previous posts we quote the unique post to thread number [eg Reply #6 and not the date stamp appearing on your screen]
All the best.
Alan.
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Welcome Michael.
Samuel born New Zealand 1868.
Do you have his birth cert?
Where was he born?
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Death notices (very similar to each other if not the same) for Charles Myers [1920]....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62929418?searchTerm=charles%20myers&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1920-01-01|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/210559910?searchTerm=charles%20myers&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1920-01-01|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/89189325?searchTerm=charles%20myers&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1920-01-01|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
I note his wife was known as Ella.
Minniehaha.
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Hi Michael, and welcome :)
Firstly, thanks for all the new information you’ve given us, it will point us in the right direction.
We can now discount the Myers who served in the 43rd Light Infantry Regiment and arrived per Lady Jocelyn, and the Te Aute reference as well.
Spades
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These are the death notices transcribed in reply #16 re Ellen Myers......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197069143?searchTerm=%22charles%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=charles+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1908-01-01|||dateTo=1908-12-31|||l-advstate=Victoria|||sortby
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10165151?searchTerm=%22charles%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=charles+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1908-01-01|||dateTo=1908-12-31|||l-advstate=Victoria|||sortby
Funeral notice on same page above.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144517229?searchTerm=%22charles%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=charles+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1908-01-01|||dateTo=1908-12-31|||l-advstate=Victoria|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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Burial record for Charles Myers [1920]:
https://www.aca.sa.gov.au/records
https://aca-intramaps.byond.cloud/IntraMaps96/?project=West%20Terrace%20Public&module=West%20Terrace&layer=~Site&mapkey=WTC-JSH-W-019
Myers Charles 27/07/1920 27/07/1920 Jewish, Row W, Site Number 19
Minniehaha.
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Papers Past 1865. 3rd Race.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18651213.2.19?end_date=31-12-1870&items_per_page=100&query=Waiuku+Myers&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1865
Fred W MYERS re Waikato land Grants.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18660210.2.23.1?end_date=31-12-1870&items_per_page=100&query=Waiuku+Myers&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1865
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18660222.2.4?end_date=31-12-1870&items_per_page=100&query=Waiuku+Myers&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1865
Alan.
PS Hard name to search on papers Past. Over 1,000 Auckland press hits for MYERS 1865 - 1870. Less if you drop the adverts, but then something might be missed.
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Part quote from reply #23.....
"Charles’ son - Louis (Lewis on birth certificate) Myers born ?London Jan. 1, 1864, or 1865 - very confused and possibly inaccurate – "
This could be his birth registration?
MYERS, LEWIS SAMUELS**
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 353
**Mother's maiden name.
Added: Parents marriage-
Marriages Mar 1857
Myers Charles E. London 1c 71
Samuel Ellen E. London 1c 71
Minniehaha.
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Trying to pin down an arrival in Australia by looking at the directories
http://guides.slsa.sa.gov.au/c.php?g=410329&p=2795763
I’m really not having much luck.
Do we know Charles’ occupation in Adelaide?
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Not within the brief:
Registration of Marriage in Victoria:
BRITTON
Joseph Abraham
Marriage
MYERS, Elizth
1917
1942/1917
Newspaper report of the wedding:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146474939?searchTerm=%22joseph%20britton%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=joseph+britton|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1917-01-01|||dateTo=1917-12-31|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
Daughter born 1918:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1641586?searchTerm=%22joseph%20a.%20britton%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=joseph+a.+britton|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1917-01-01|||dateTo=1930-12-31|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
Her birth registration:
BRITTON
Esther
Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Elizth
MYERS
<Unknown Family Name>, Joseph Abraham
PRAHRAN
1918
6100/1918
Minniehaha.
[P.S. There may be some overlapping with information on reply #15.]
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Re some of the latest posts:
- Yes, Joseph Britton and Elizabeth Myers were my grandparents, and she was Charles' granddaughter. Esther was their Eldest daughter; the next, my mother Sydney (named, I believe, for their home, Sydney Villa, Beaconsfield Parade, Melbourne) was born in England, but as she was born in May 1920, I would assume she was conceived in Australia. But, as Minnehaha says, not within the brief.
- Alan: I was unaware of the "home invasions" by curious Maoris, but it sounds a plausible, if less dramatic, background to the story. I am also interested in your reference to looking at the Waiku Land Grants (suggesting the Militia Myers), and Spades' suggestion that we can discount the 43rd Infantry Myers. My Myers' obituary indicates that he served in the Crimea and the Maori Wars. I think that the tie-breaker is going to be to find where Charles and Ellen Myers and their sons were living during the 1860s.
Thanks
Michael
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Hello again Michael.
Do you have any idea how devout Charles's witness would have been in his teen, and early adult years. Serving at sea and then in Militia would have seen him a long way away from civil populations with places of worship. However such institutions often have archives, that might be worth seeking.
Alan
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Alan,
No, I have no idea of how observant he may have been; such information just hasn't come down. On the one hand, for a Jewish lad from the East End to enlist in the Navy and then the Army was very unusual and suggests a distinct level of detachment from a religious life - or perhaps, one may speculate, a rebellion from an over-orthodox one? - but he clearly retained his Jewish identity. He was buried in a Jewish cemetery and the family here certainly retains its Jewish identity, though I think most of its members, myself included, are very assimilated and not at all observant.
I retain a pride in my Jewish ancestry, though, and have recently identified a nephew of a 6xgreat grandfather on my father's side who was burned by the Inquisition in Spain. Another on that side - a 3xgreat uncle- was the renowned pugilist and folk hero for the London poor, Daniel Mendoza, three of whose children were transported to Australia in the 1830s; I discovered quite recently that I have more 1st cousins four times removed on that side of the family out there than I ever dreamed of.
As a possible parallel, and qualifier, to your question, I have a big project to find the graves of veterans of the American Civil War in the mainland UK (there is a similar one in Australia and NZ). Of three Jewish veterans I have found here, one was a Henry Magnus, who defied his orthodox parents who had forbidden him to go and fight as he would not be able to observe full religious ritual in the army. He disobeyed, went to fight, and they never spoke to him again. When he returned to England, he changed his name to McGuinness, and died in Nottingham. Another had a battlefield conversion and became a fanatical Christian. The third was an East London butcher and kept up Jewish tradition; he is buried in a Jewish cemetery and, curiously, my father "courted" one of his granddaughters before meeting my mother and marrying her. So, even among that sample of three military Jews, there is no consistency in how they approached their religion.
Michael
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Thanks for your in-depth reply.
Why I asked was, I have not done any research into their early Jewish worship in Auckland, like I have for some of the early pioneers and their Protestant Christian faith, so was wondering if we should be searching, to see what records there might be out there. Like you state, a Jewish lad leaving the shelter of his home and family, to go to sea, seemed to my understanding to be a contradiction.
Spent an hour re-tracking through some recent research looking for what I had read, but without luck. However this snippet from the Te Awamutu Museum, re early Missionary Women in the Waikato could be of interest.
"These mission women were often left alone with their children for days. Also there was always the embarrassment of naked men strolling into their homes; or, as Dr. Maunsell found, coming naked to Church."
That being, in part, a reference to friendly local Maori and their limited attire. Remembering also that there were quite a number of half caste youth, some of whom were being raised by their mothers and tribal community.
Alan.
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Quite intriguing. While I should perhaps not let my imagination run away with me, and I hope this sort of speculation is appropriate here, maybe I should get an Ancestry DNA test; it would wonderful to find that I was 15/16ths Jewish and 1/16th Maori...
Michael
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Found a Charles Myers in the Goldminers Database of NZ 1861-1872 by Kae Lewis in the Thames District in 1868 which could be of interest? - link follows
https://kaelewis.com/database/prospector.php?database=gold&mode=results&searchtypeid=1&OldCopies_1=1&Copies_1=1&Value_1_1=myers&Exact_1_1=wil
TPB
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Hi again Michael.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_New_Zealand
The above link will give you some info re organised Jewish establishments, and acquiring the critical mass necessary, to fund the building of Synagogues, where one can assume records would have been kept / archived. I see the building of a Synagogue in Auckland, did not take place until 20 years after the arrival of your Charles MYERS. That is why my interest in early farming pioneers, has not come upon much info re Jews settling in NZ. Will privately supply more press and Museum links to points of your expressed general research interest.
Alan.
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Maybe something here when Archives re-opens:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=25696012
Crown Grant:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DSC18670606.2.12.2?end_date=31-12-1867&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=charles+myers&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1865
Minniehaha.
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Is this the Samuel Myers said to have been born in New Zealand in 1868?
Death [1950] of New Zealand born Samuel Myers…….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44919276?searchTerm=%22samuel%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=samuel+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1920-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
Death & funeral notices:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131133696?searchTerm=%22samuel%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=samuel+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1950-01-01|||dateTo=1950-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||l-advcategory=Obituaries|||sortby
Cemetery details:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/19209653/samuel-myers
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/19197488/leah-myers
Death notice [1939] for Leah Myers, his wife:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/92429091?searchTerm=%22leah%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=leah|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1939-04-01|||dateTo=1939-04-30|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
This birth has already appeared on the forum. I wonder if the father's name is incorrectly shown/recorded? Ellen's maiden name was Samuel.
1868/13126 Myers Samuel Ellen Samuel
[This is the only birth I could find for Ellen & Samuel.]
Minniehaha.
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Surely that certificate for the 1868 birth would show where they were living then?
What does it say?
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Morning - but must to bed.
#44 and original post, already offered by PM a look-up for Michael, once we have been unshackled.
#46 data recorded has changed over time and legislation updates.
Regards,
Alan.
NOTE. Informant could be a relative, or even a hospital orderly. {Particularily with deaths} So the usual residence, you are looking for, may not be recorded.
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Minniehaha - reply 45,
I think there is a good chance that it's the correct Samuel Myers. His father Charles, who I am pursuing, died at the residence of his son (doesn't say which of the four, unfortunately) on 26th July, 1920, but the address is given as 40 Finnies Street, not 114 - so possibly one of the other sons. Does anyone there have access to a 1920 Adelaide directory to resolve the question?
Michael
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Part quote from reply #47....
"NOTE. Informant could be a relative, or even a hospital orderly. {Particularily with deaths} So the usual residence, you are looking for, may not be recorded."
The point Mckha was making was that the place of birth would be recorded at registration.
The birth would have been at home but maybe not at the usual residence of the parents. Also in this case we cannot be 100% certain that the 1868 birth is that of the Samuel Myers being sought. However I suspect it is but that there has been a mis-recording of the name of the father.
Michael, if ordering a record of this birth, do request a printout* as they are cheaper and may contain more information than a certificate. Also can be e-mailed.
*They are what I would call a photocopy of the original registration entry.
I have many of these printouts and in all but two, the father has been the informant.
I would also add that "the signature of the informant" is a little misleading as the printouts I have for the 1860's are entirely written in the same hand, including that of the informant, their occupation and address.
Minniehaha.
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Agreed Minniehaha.
But as we recently learnt, some of the early registers ledgers are now restricted for preservation, and the COPY recieved is now a later typed version off the original.
The original registrations that I've looked up, of that period [1860's], were written by the Court registrars, Local Post Official clerk, or Government agency, so all in one hand, as you scroll down the enteries.
One was even registered by the local priest.
Alan.
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Not experienced doing advanced searches on TROVE but finally found the following re 40, & or 114, Finnis Street Adelaide.
NEWS [Adelaide, South Australia]
December 1st p17; 8th p8 & 9th page 6, 1927;
Articles about an exhibition of cut glass at the home of Mrs Sam MYERS 114 Finnis Street Adelaide. The latter two have more words.
April 29th page 2 & May 1st page five 1920;
Details of the death of Woolf COHEN brother in law of, Mr S MYERS 40 Finnis Street, Adelaide.
Alan.
PS forwarded screen shots of abstracts to Michael. Not sure about copyright, so have not posted to the thread.
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Not experienced doing advanced searches on TROVE but finally found the following re 40, & or 114, Finnis Street Adelaide.
NEWS [Adelaide, South Australia]
December 1st p17; 8th p8 & 9th page 6, 1927;
Articles about an exhibition of cut glass at the home of Mrs Sam MYERS 114 Finnis Street Adelaide. The latter two have more words.
April 29th page 2 & May 1st page five 1920;
Details of the death of Woolf COHEN brother in law of, S MYERS 40 Finnis Street, Adelaide.
Alan.
Direct links:
1.12.1927……
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129187724?searchTerm=%22sam%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=sam+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1927-01-01|||dateTo=1927-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
29.4.1920…..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62627414?searchTerm=%22woolf%20cohen%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=woolf+cohen|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1920-01-01|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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Thanks Minniehaha, and also AMBLY whom I saught advice from. Alan.
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Thanks for the clippings, Alan (reply 52). But that could throw an unexpected element into the proceedings. If Mr. S. Myers was the brother-in-law of the late Mr. Woolf Cohen, that rather suggests that Cohen was married to Myers' sister; and I don't recall seeing any reference to a sister - only four brothers? Curious.
Michael
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Just been searching any Cohen / Myers links in NZ papers of that period, with quite a few hits. I'm now presuming they are common surnames within Jewish brotherhoods. Often it is found that new arrivals from the 60's on were following other relatives, or villagers who were already settled in NZ.
Alan.
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True, though the trail does seem to suggest we have the right family - but caution is clearly necessary. The determining factor, certainly, is going to be where Charles, Ellen and their growing family were living in the 1860s-70s-80s.
Michael
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Morning.
A TROVE search 1915 – 1925, for Finnis Street in South Australia’s papers found 230 hits, but nothing new that caught my eye other than confirming Sam’s address as 114 Finnis Street.
Fascinating for me though was learning of all the cars registered to addresses on Finnis Street. Sam apparently owned a 18.3 Nash. Was hoping I might have found a Mrs Ellen [Woolf] COHEN, associated with either 40 or 114 Finnis Street.
Latest Motor Registrations
News (Adelaide, SA : 1923 - 1954) Friday 14 September 1923 p 7 Detailed Lists,
23824--Samuel Myres, 114 Finnis street, North Adelaide, 18.3 Nash.
Alan.
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Mr. & Mrs. Sam Myers leaving on a trip to New Zealand [1934]…..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/35016219?searchTerm=%22myers%20finnis%20street%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=myers+finnis+street|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1908-01-01|||dateTo|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
Silver wedding of Mr. & Mrs. Sam Myers [1918]….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63839826?searchTerm=%22myers%20finnis%20street%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=myers+finnis+street|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1908-01-01|||dateTo|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
Added:
Wedding of the Woolf Cohen niece of Mr. & Mrs. Sam Myers [1921]…..
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/89252051?searchTerm=%22woolf%20cohen%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=woolf+cohen|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1908-01-01|||dateTo|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
Cohen and Myers snippet [1905]....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4967956?searchTerm=%22woolf%20cohen%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=woolf+cohen|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||l-advstate=South+Australia|||sortby
Sorry Michael, we may not be able to make any progress on your specific request until this lock down is over. :)
Minniehaha.
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Found on FindMyPast the following marriage and death details:
Marriage
Woolf COHEN b 1861
Age 22 years
Married 31 October 1883 at residence of bride's father (Adelaide)
Bridegroom's father: Michael Cohen
Spouse: Marian Myers
Age 17 years b 1866
Bride's father: Charles Myers
South Australia Marriages 137/499
Death
Marion Cohen
Birth year 1867
Died 9 January 1893, 26 years, Adelaide
Informant: Husband Woolf Cohen
South Australia Deaths 206/460
TPB
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Exellent find TPB! ;D
That information certainly joins some of the dots and explains why perhaps she was not mentioned in the death notices of her parents?
Added:
Birth of a son [1886]…….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44570690?searchTerm=%22woolf%20cohen%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=woolf+cohen|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1884-01-01|||dateTo=1886-12-31|||sortby
Added:
A Death notice [1893] for Marian (Minnie), one of many....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197858456?searchTerm=%22cohen%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=cohen|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1893-01-01|||dateTo=1893-01-31|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery records:
Cohen Marion 09/01/1893 10/01/1893 Jewish, Row L, Site Number 16
Cohen Woolf 28/04/1920 29/04/1920 Jewish, Row L, Site Number 17
https://www.aca.sa.gov.au/records
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/19135858/marion-cohen
Minniehaha.
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There may be something here about Marian (for a fee).....
https://www.genealogysa.org.au/index.php?option=com_gsa&view=gsa&layout=essearch&collection_id=bisa&page_no=1&Surname=myers&GivenName=marion&year_from=1866&accuracy=2
Minniehaha.
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Well done. Michael should be pleased.
Alan.
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Thanks for all this extra snippets, which certainly fill in some ancillary family data and also seem to indicate the existence of two daughters of Charles and Ellen Myers who we didn't know of before. I certainly understand that progress will be limited until lockdown is eased; position is just the same here in the UK, and almost certainly worse.
But - those were the days, when you could put a notice in the papers that you were going away on a cruise; hardly the thing to do in this day and age, unless you wanted the burglars to clear the house for you.
Michael
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Further to reply #58.....
Notice of 1921 wedding of Abby Woolf [niece of Samuel Myers] given in that reply.
Sadly, divorce details in 1923:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/82560986?searchTerm=%22charles%20weil%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=charles+weil|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1921-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/210487168?searchTerm=%22charles%20weil%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=charles+weil|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1921-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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The other daughter of Charles & Ellen Myers......
Her death: [1890]......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208541710?searchTerm=%22judah%20perkins%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=judah+perkins|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1890-01-01|||dateTo=1890-12-31|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13768630?searchTerm=%22judah%20perkins%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=judah+perkins|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1890-01-01|||dateTo=1890-12-31|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
In Memoriam: [1891]...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208553733?searchTerm=%22judah%20perkins%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=judah+perkins|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1891-01-01|||dateTo=1891-12-31|||sortby
Added: her birth-
MYERS, ELIZABETH SAMUEL**
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in GREENWICH Volume 01D Page 595
**Mother's maiden name.
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery record [includes photograph of headstone].....
https://rookwoodcemetery.discovereverafter.com/search-results?search_first=elizabeth&search_last=perkins&cemetery=248&site=rookwoodcemetery&advanced-search=Search
Elizabeth Perkins
Pesi bat Yekutiel
AGE: 32
DATE OF BIRTH
1 JAN 1858
DATE OF DEATH
28 APR 1890
DATE OF BURIAL
28 APR 1890
RELIGIOUS DATE OF DEATH
8 IYAR 5650
Minniehaha.
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And this I think may be "Jack", son of Charles & Ellen Myers.
Wedding [1900]……[Note the names of the guests]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149618225?searchTerm=%22jacob%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=jacob+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1900-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199952346?searchTerm=%22jacob%20a.%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=jacob+a.+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1900-01-01|||dateTo=1900-12-31|||sortby
Divorce -Jacob Abraham Myers [1908]…….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/33291428?searchTerm=%22jacob%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=jacob+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1900-01-01|||dateTo|||sortby
If his age was correctly stated, Jacob was born about 1873.
Minniehaha.
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Jacob.
Great find Minniehaha. I thought "Jack" too casual so had been looking for a John, not thinking of a Jewish name.
Alan.
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Michael.
Do you know who Charles MYERS siblings were? Our National Archives hold files that could be of people closely associated with Charles, and been another reason for his presence in NZ, and following that Australia. The same Jewish Surnames, in association keep cropping up, especially in trade. There is also a Maori War file in the name of Samuel MYERS for instance.
There are records of a Samuel MYERS, unlucky in love, and involved in Animal bi-products and the wool trade on the West Coast and across the Tasman. He also had links to the MYERS of Nelson, and if I remember correctly, one of the enlisted in the Malitia signed on in Nelson NZ.
Alan.
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Further to reply #68......
Some details re the son of Jacob Abraham Myers ("Jack"?):
MYERS HENRY MARK
4064/1947
JACOB
DINAH
RANDWICK
Death notice:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18015015?searchTerm=%22henry%20mark%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=henry+mark+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1947-01-01|||dateTo=1947-12-31|||l-advstate=New+South+Wales|||l-advcategory=Family+Notices|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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Yet more thanks for everyone's brilliant efforts. Judah Perkins - what a splendid name. I wonder what it was originally - possibly something like Pinchas?
In answer to Alan's question, I have Charles in the UK 1841 Census, aged 3, living in Spitalfields, London, with father Henry, 45; mother Elizabeth (hence the name of Charles' daughter?), 35; and siblings Rachel, 10; Hyam, 5; and Saul, 1.
I haven't been able as yet to find him in the 1851 Census, but in 1861 he was living at 8, Frying Pan Alley, Spitalfields, aged 25, with wife Ellen, 26 (born Bristol), two children, born in Lambeth, south London - Elizabeth, 3, and Henry, 1 and, strangely, a Sophia Myers, 16, also born Lambeth but described as Servant.
Michael
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Slowly working my way through 3,000 MYERS PapersPast hits, in the period you think Charles may have been in NZ. Given names not often used, mainly surnames, and when given are mainly Anglicized. A few Sam's and Charles' but often of the wrong age bracket. One prominent family had Irish links, and some linking to America. Often mentioned with inwards freight, and merchandising.
Did not think of the Jack / Jacob, so from your perspective should I also be looking for an Anglicized Hyam and Saul. And if so what would be your choice. I could quite easily see them introducing themselves with an Anglicized name, if staking and working in the bush, and mens's camps, on the Gold fields etc.
A Judah MYERS pops up a few times.
Alan.
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Difficult to know where to focus, especially with 3,000 hits, most of which are probably not our Charles! Given the proliferation of Myers names, and even the presence of more than one Charles, my own feeling, albeit as a less experienced researcher, is that we should work from the inside to the out - i.e., try to (a) ascertain whether my Charles was the 43rd man, the Waikato Militia man, or possibly both, (b) whether he was the blacksmith, or shoemaker, or even tried his hand at gold prospecting, and (c) try to find a Charles and Ellen Myers during the 1860s and 1870s (after which they went to Australia); if they can be pinned down that way, then working outward to their later lives is much more simple - and I think that is still the pivot of the search, the original aim of which is to ascertain if there is any substance in the Maori story, or whether your own suggestion, that it might just have been a comment from a visiting Maori, and the incident blown up by later family retelling, is nearer the truth. However, I am not familiar with the nature of the early settlement records, and it may be that finding a Charles and Ellen Myers and their three (later four) children during that period is not as straightforward as I assumed.
Thanks
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I think we can eliminate the Charles MYERS who served in the 43rd Light Infantry and arrived per Lady Jocelyn. His stated place of birth and his occupation don't fit.
I think he is more likely to be the Charles MYERS who served in the 3rd Waikato Regiment, even though this man's occupation on enlistment was that of engineer. everything else seems to fit; see his entry at the bottom of this page (apologies to all if it has already been posted):
https://cambridgemuseum.org.nz/arnold-charles-william/
Do you have an information about whether Charles was ever an engineer?
For a history of the 3rd Waikato Regiment see:
https://cambridgemuseum.org.nz/third-waikato-militia/
The latter link mentions that the 3rd Waikato Regiment was disbanded in 1867, and this suggests that the land grant in Cambridge East and Ohaupo was probably given soon after this date.
Note that in many cases the land was very difficult to break in for farming, and many men either sold their land to others with more capital or skills, or just simply walked away. For a thorough discussion of the issues discharged military veterans had to face in NZ civilian life see this very readable thesis:
https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/handle/10063/6740
Spades
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At this time obtaining a printout of what appears could be the birth registration of Samuel in NZ is about all we could do because of lockdown, as they are emailed out to those who have purchased them. If lucky it could give a pointer as to where your MYERS were resident at that time. Or at least which region of NZ.
An email to the Cambridge Museum, may get a volunteer who is able to shed more light on their published lists, and were source material is held for further study.
Finnis Street Adelaide research has allowed cross checking and confirming that there were two sibling sisters, and given other surnames in "their bubble" by association, that can be included in searches. Some great work by the team.
Unfortunately we don't have retained census records in NZ. There are some early jury lists, but I think the search engines have access to them, so should show to a general search.
Other archives held files that may have info to contribute to the research, or eliminate from, are not available to public viewing until lockdown is lifted.
The way the PapersPast hits display an abstract it is relatively simple to scroll down 100 hits, at a time, while having a cuppa. Done 15 pages so far.
Alan.
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This is interesting, because if he is not the 43rd man, then I have been assuming, wrongly, that he went from the Crimean Navy to the regular Army; and his obituary makes clear that he served both in the Crimea and the Maori Wars. I therefore need to do some more searching up here to establish what he was doing beween his discharge from the Navy in 1856 and his arrival in New Zealand - and, if he was not in the regular army, why he would have gone to NZ without his family and asked them to join him later, presumably around mid-1865, if they arrived in NZ in January 1865. Or was it normal for pioneer settlers to go out without their families and call them to join them later?
Michael
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Part quote from reply #76.....
"At this time obtaining a printout of what appears could be the birth registration of Samuel in NZ is about all we could do because of lockdown, as they are emailed out to those who have purchased them. If lucky it could give a pointer as to where your MYERS were resident at that time. Or at least which region of NZ."
As mentioned elsewhere, I agree that this 1868 birth registration is most likely that of the son of Charles & Ellen Myers. If the father, (Samuel) as named on the on-line NZ BDM index is also shown on the actual printout, Ellen's maiden name on the document should hopefully settle the matter one way or the other.
Minniehaha.
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PS - and that, I think, will include trying to find any appropriate synagogue records in London, which will have to wait until after lockdown.
Michael
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I know you have this information Michael but I am putting the link up for the interest of Rootschatters. I don't think it already appears here?
Obituary of Charles Myers [1920]
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149672669?searchTerm=%22charles%20myers%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=charles+myers|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1920-01-01|||dateTo=1920-12-31|||sortby
Minniehaha.
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Hi Minniehaha,
From the obituary it's seems clear that Charles served in the Crimea in the Naval Brigade, was discharged, and then emigrated to New Zealand 'in 1866'.
This conflicts with the 3rd Waikato Regiment record for their Charles MYERS which says he enlisted on '24 November 1863 in Nelson'.
Unless the date given in Charles' obituary is inaccurate we might be looking for a different Charles MYERS entirely!
Spades
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I will happily leave all the military stuff in your very capable hands Spades, as I know nothing whatsoever about the subject. ;D ;D
Minniehaha.
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Ha, nor do I from the look of it ::) :(
Information sheet about the Naval Brigade.
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/research_infoNavalbrigadesinfosheet.html
The Victorian Naval Brigades.
https://www.amazon.com/Victorian-Naval-Brigades-L-Bleby/dp/190444525X
The Crimean War - Naval and Marines Medal Roll.
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections/18/the-crimean-war-naval-and-marines-medal-roll
I can't find him listed.
The Victoria Crosses of the Crimean War: The Men Behind the Medals.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01pc2/
Spades
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Michael. It is the success of this family that makes sifting through the NZ press of the period you are interested in difficult. Will see if I can find something similar on the Nelson Myers of that period.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/3m66/myers-arthur-mielziner
Alan.
ADDED
MYERS Nelson.
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc01Cycl-t1-body-d4-d11-d22.html
Evidence of MYERS & COHEN in business in Nelson 1869
Mrs Cato nee MYERS 1869
MYERS Southland.
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc04Cycl-t1-body1-d7-d19.html
Evidence of MYERS & COHEN in business in Nelson 1869
Lewis MYERS Auckland, importing Tobacco 1871
Plenty of travel movements between Victoria and South Australia for MYERS.
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Hi Michael,
Your Charles was born at Whitechapel, London in 1837, while the Charles MYERS of the 3rd Waikato Regiment was born at Spitalfields, London c'1835. These two suburbs are adjacent to each other, and the years of birth are a close match. I suspect both refer to the same man.
I think it is more likely that if your Charles served in the 'Maori War' it was in the 3rd Waikato Regiment, and not as an Imperial soldier of the 43rd Light Infantry (because that Charles Myers hailed from the wrong place and had a less likely occupation).
If this is correct your Charles was already in New Zealand (in Nelson) in late 1863.
What do you think?
Spades
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His birth:
MYERS, CHARLES LEVY **
GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in THE WHITECHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 255
**Mother's maiden name.
A twin?
MYERS, MOSES LEVY
GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in THE WHITECHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 255
Minniehaha.
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Archives lookups when open again, if not previously mentioned.
Auckland look up [added to my list]
R22423827 Louis MYERS. Application for Hikutaia Bush license 1873.
Wellington look up.
R24104358 From: Lieut Colonel Moule, Hamilton Date: 16 February 1867 Subject: With claim for washing, etc, hospital bedding Cambridge (Ellen Myers £2.6.3 and a half)
Maori War service
R22350970 MYERS Phillip; R22361289 MYERS John; R22361388 MYERS Samuel.
Alan.
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Just throwing these events into the mix........
MYERS, SAMUEL LEVY
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in WHITECHAPEL UNION Volume 02 Page 607
Death:
1864/5120 Myers Samuel 19Y
[Where did this Samuel die?]
Minniehaha.
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I looked for Samuel Myers, died age 19 in 1864 in Whitechapel, on the Free BMD site, which is pretty comprehensive, but couldn't find him.
Michael
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That death in 1864 is in NZ Michael,
I think what Minniehaha was getting at, was have you accounted for the Whitechapel Samuel in England? Or could he be the 1864 death in NZ?
Added, by drilling down, I can tell you that death was 14th of March
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Yes, I wondered if any of Charles' siblings were in New Zealand during the 1860's? If so, was the Samuel Myers who died here in 1864, one of them?
Minniehaha.
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Morning.
RE: - Ellen MYERS wife of Charles MYERS.
Over the last few days I’ve looked at a large number of NZ hits for MYERS, in Papers Past, Auckland Library card index, Waikato Museums and Government records etc.
There are only the four newspaper clippings recording Ellen’s arrival at the Port of Auckland January 1865, and it’s been assumed she possibly portaged across the isthmus, and joined the cutters ferrying settlers to the new Waiuku settlement/s.
However this archives file at Wellington, puts her at Cambridge, Waikato presenting a washer women's bill for doing Hospital laundry, and presenting it to the Commander of the Waikato Militia.
From: Lieut. Colonel Moule, Hamilton Date: 16 February 1867 Subject: With claim for washing, etc, hospital bedding Cambridge (Ellen Myers £2.6.3 and a half) (R24104358) at WELLINGTON.
Spades, a job for your trusty camera “should you choose to accept” once we are released from our bubble.
Minniehaha. Have supplied Michael privately, clippings relating to MYERS throughout NZ, where Anglicized names appear that we know the family have used, and or by association with Jewish surnames that Charles may have been associated with. Also background items re life and times of NZ Militia and early NZ Jewish communities. I found no strong leads, tho the Nelson cluster might be connected, but in the Colonist 11/5/1868 John J MYERS of Nelson, was referred to, as a Dutchman.
And this link ties the Nelson Charles MYERS who drowned at Nelson in April 1865 to a store he once owned on the West Coast. NOTE how tough conditions were.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THD18650506.2.4?end_date=31-12-1875&items_per_page=100&page=3&query=Myers&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA&start_date=01-01-1865
Alan.
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I think the caution here has to be that Myers is a not uncommon German-Jewish name, but unfortunately also a not-uncommon non-Jewish name - so, for example when I see a Christian Myers, I would be cautious about thinking he would be Jewish, even if was from Germany! There were, for example, German Hammersons out in Texas in the 19th century, but they were very Protestant!
Somewhere in my now-burgeoning file I do have a note of Charles Myers' Crimea medal, and will hunt it out. I have at least found the note from the Australian researcher who was helping me, stating that she had found his Crimean War records, serving on HMS Cossack and receiving the Baltic Medal.
But, as we seem to be querying both the 43rd man and the Waikato man, could it possibly be the same person? I don't know the chronology of the Maori Wars, but could he have come over with the 43rd, fought at Gate Pa and Te Ranga (which I believe were in 1864) with them, then received his discharge, gone to civilian life (and then called Ellen and his sons to come from England, arriving on the Matoaka on 3rd January 1865) and joined the 3rd Waikato? A man with regular army experience would presumably have been a valuable asset to a militia unit. Again, the linch-pin to this seems to be Ellen - surely, however many Charles Myers we are dealing with here (and hopefully no more than two!), there must be a limited number who were married to an Ellen?
Michael
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Hi Michael,
If you refer to my replies, #4 and #18, we cannot reconcile the stated month of arrival in New Zealand and the two different occupations of the two individuals.
One Charles MYERS attested for the 3rd Waikato Militia in November 1863, the other arrived here the following month among a draft of the 43rd Light Infantry. The evidence suggests that they are two separate individuals.
At the moment I would concentrate on the former, who seems a better fit for your Charles.
Once our libraries and archives open up there will be other resources to use.
Spades
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H M S COSSACK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Cossack_(1854)
RootsChat's "seaweed" is very knowledgable with regards to Merchantile crew assignments/manning, shipping movements etc. Not sure about Navy manning.
Alan.
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Michael I suggest you consider obtaining the printout for the birth of Samuel in 1868. We know the name of Ellen appears on this. As should her maiden name.
Look forward to your response concerning this matter.
Minniehaha.
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Somewhere in my now-burgeoning file I do have a note of Charles Myers' Crimea medal, and will hunt it out. I have at least found the note from the Australian researcher who was helping me, stating that she had found his Crimean War records, serving on HMS Cossack and receiving the Baltic Medal.
This is on Ancestry
The right hand column is details of the delivery of the medal, so i suspect Charles didn't get his.
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At National Archives is this enlistment ADM 139/144/14318
I am sure, Michael, you have this but for the rest of us
I put the details here incase there is a physical description anywhere else.
Charles Myers no 14318
b London 2nd August 1837
Height 5ft 4 in
Fair complexion
Brown hair, hazel eyes. No marks
Ship in which he is entered. Waterloo
Date of entry 22 July 1854
Boy 1st Class (which matches the Crimean record)
Date of volunteering 22 July 1854
Period...10 years from the age of 18
and here is his signature incase someone finds another example
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Interesting - thanks. Alan
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Thanks again, all - in the all too unlikely event that I can find a signature for Charles Here, perhaps on any surviving synagogue records, that will be useful.
I have been trying to put together some relevant material from the various Myers Ancestry sites, of which there are quite a number, and paste below what I think may be helpful - though I suspect some of the information is confused or conflicting. However, it may provide some pointers:
Michael
My Charles Myers: found on the 1841 and 1861 UK Census, but strangely I cannot find either him, his parents or any siblings on the 1851 census. His father Henry died in London in 1867, and his mother Elizabeth died “after 1871” in Middlesex, but I cannot find anyone of the correct age in Free BMD.
His siblings were:
- Rachel (Rachael in 1841 census) (1831- New Zealand 1899)
- Hyman (Hyam in 1841 census) (1838-London 1907)
- Saul (1839 - ), found in 1871 census but not later. Wife Leah, daughter Rose
- Lewis (1844 - ) found in 1881 census, but not later. Wife Ann Norah Gardner.
- Sarah (1846- ) – found in 1871 census, but not later.
The Samuel Myers we are seeking, son of Charles and Ellen, was born January 1868 in New Zealand and died in Adelaide 6 July 1950. Wife Leah Lyons (1871-1939), married Adelaide 1893. The Ancestry tree only gives siblings born after leaving England – Jacob Abraham (b. Sydney 1873, died 1944), and Esther (b. Sydney, 1875, d. 1876) – so it seems Charles and Ellen had moved to Australia by 1873.
The interesting sibling of Charles is Rachel. Born Bethnal Green London, 1831, she is in the 1841 census, but although the Ancestry tree says she is living with the family at 6 Mills Court, Aldgate in the 1851 census, as mentioned, for some odd reason I cannot find any of them in that census on Ancestry.
What is curious, though, is that she next turns up in the same tree in New Zealand, in 1856 and 1857, when two unnamed children are born, followed, also in NZ, by Joseph in 1860 (no death), Elizabeth in 1862 (no death), and Sarah Elizabeth (born and died 1862). Oddly, another daughter, Sarah Elizabeth, is shown as born and died in NZ in 1864; either she was very unfortunate and determined on the name Elizabeth to honour her mother, or they are all the same child?
However, her husband – no marriage date shown – was a Charles Myers, stated to have been born in Belgium in about 1831, and died 17th April, 1865 in NZ. Maybe he is one of our Charleses – perhaps the 43rd one shown as being born in St. Helier (possibly to a recruiting clark one French name sounded the same as any others?), though I guess that would throw up problems too, as does the fact that she is shown as giving birth to two more children – (Ella Myers 1867-1913, at Nelson, NZ) and Louis Field (NZ 1872 - ), and remarrying, apparently in 1873, to a Thomas Field – so Louis was presumably born out of wedlock, and who Ella's father might have been is another matter.
Thomas is shown as born c.1839 in Stockholm, Sweden. The 1875-6 Electoral Roll shows him living in Fitzherbert Street, Hokitika, and on 30 May or 1 June, 1878, he became a Naturalised citizen of New Zealand, occupation given as Labourer.
Rachel died 7th January 1899 and is buried in Melbourne General Cemetry, Section G, Row G, Plot 308A, 2. The surname Field is shown, but her date of death is recorded in the Jewish style, 25th Tevet 5659.
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For others following this thread these are some of the children shown above:
1860/8384 Myers Joseph Rachael Charles -
1862/9770 Myers Sarah Elizabeth Rachael Charles -
1864/10955 Myers Elizabeth Sarah Rachael Charles -
1856/5295 Myers NR Rachel Charles -
1857/6154 Myers NR Rachael Charles
[There does not appear to be any confusion here over the name of Elizabeth as stated above.]
Death:
1869/2943 Myers Charles 36Y ??
NOTE: No deaths for Myers registered in 1865.
Added:
1864/4446 Myers Elizabeth Sarah 2M
Possible death:
1907/5745 Myers Joseph 46Y
Minniehaha.
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If Charles Myers of Nelson was drowned 1865 according to newspapers, body not found, does that mean the death is not registered (I can’t see it) or is the 1869 registration a late registration? Or is it another Charles Myers.
Floating around my brain is a feeling drownings are dealt with differently?
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Yes I think you may be correct Mckha. Somewhere in the back of my mind I have a feeling that legal proceedings can be taken after a period of seven (?) years to have the death registered. Having said that, I have an ancestor who drowned in 1865 and as far as I am aware his body was not found but the death was registered the same year.
Minniehaha.
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TC18650512.2.19?end_date=31-12-1865&items_per_page=10&page=4&phrase=2&query=Myers&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1865&title=TC%2cNENZC
Says Charles who drowned was. Jew, who once had a store at Collingwood. But no mention I can find anywhere that he left a wife and family.
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Regarding the 1851 census. That is correct
Whitechapel
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1543
Folio 180
Page 2
Henry, b Holland,
Elizabeth b Bethnal green
Rachel 20. “
Charles 13 b Spitalfields
Lewis 7. “
Sarah 5. “
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Morning.
FYI I have fired off a request to the Nelson Library, parent library for the region, asking if any non-online Myers family papers, reunions etc are held. In their list of resourses available, is a reminder for me about the 1882 land owners and lease holders census returns. A pitty it looks like Charles headed to Australia before it was complied.
The Nelson library Research Archive resources include:
Diaries, manuscripts, correspondence of early settlers, transcriptions of voyages out to Nelson from the “Motherland”, daily life of farming activities, information on businesses, organisations and individuals. Biography and subject reference files are available onsite at the Research Facility.
Archival group listings for individuals, families, groups, businesses, associations, some schools and indexed scrapbooks of Nelson Tasman history not yet available on Papers Past.
Map and architectural plan collection dating from 1842.
Passenger indexes, 1840s-1880s
Nelson censuses 1845 and 1849
Jury lists 1843-1861
Return of the freeholders of New Zealand 1882
Directories for business and address information – Lucas’ Almanac, Stones and New Zealand Post Office directories and Nelson/ Tasman telephone directories, 1894, 1902, 1919, 1922 – (series not complete)
Indexed Birth, Death and Marriages (BDM)
Drowning in New Zealand index 1840-1875
Marriage and baptism records for Catholic, Presbyterian and Lutheran churches in Nelson and Tasman
School admission, progress and withdrawal registers (not all school records held)
Obituaries index
Cemetery records
Name index to the Nelson Provincial Gazette 1853-1875
Anniversaries Index: Nelson 1842-1963 (from NEM, 1963)
Golden Bay Colonist Index, 1857-1858, 1860, 1870-1871, 1875, 1877, 1879, 1880
Nelson Board of Works: Name index to inwards correspondence, 1857-1872
Ancient Order of Foresters. Court Robin Hood: Register 1863-1901
Ancient Order of Foresters. Court Sherwood Forest: Register 1887-ca. 1907
Index to the Nelson Volunteer Rifles, no. 1 Company, 1861-1862
Index to Nelson Rifle Volunteers’ Nominal Roll 1910-1911
Diary transcripts for WWI diaries:
So a diverse supply of info should we get firm evidence the MYERS of early Nelson are connected.
Alan.
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Further to Reply #90
Samuel MYERS
Born 1844, London
Reg No 791, 1st Waikato Regiment
Service commenced 4 September 1863 - 15 March 1864
Served at Tauranga?
Joined at Melbourne
Ship of Arrival: Caduceus '63
Died 15 March 1864
Further to reply #87
Philip MYERS
B Montreal, Quebec 1829
Regimental No 714, 1st Waikato Reiment
Service commenced 1 September 1863 then 4th Waikato Regiment.
Joined at Melbourne
Ship of arrival: Star O India '63
(Source:NZ Militia, Volunteers and Armed Constabularly 1863-1871)
Other MYERS who also appear are:
Frederick MYERS b 1843 - 4th Waikato Regiment. Joined at Sydney. Ship of arrival Bella Maria '64
Service: 5 March 1864 - 3 June 1864
George MYERS 3rd Waikato Regiment - Commissariat Transport Corps
Frederick MYERS b 1834 - Royal Cavalry Volunteers
TPB
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Yes I think you may be correct Mckha. Somewhere in the back of my mind I have a feeling that legal proceedings can be taken after a period of seven (?) years to have the death registered. Having said that, I have an ancestor who drowned in 1865 and as far as I am aware his body was not found but the death was registered the same year.
Minniehaha.
Difference could be if there was an inquest or not.
Alan.
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Afternoon update. NO NOT COVID - 19
Received a nice reply from a Nelson Librarian working from home. It will be level two before the Library will be able to receive members of the public.
However was able to supply the following re G H MYERS often mentioned in the press of the period of interest.
Myers, George Henry
1849 Flockowner Milton Grove.
Milton Grove thought to be in Milton Street near Grove Street and south of the Maitai river, Nelson. Ref: Journal Nelson Historical Society Journal Vol.2(1) 1966 p.27
And a link to photos held.
https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects?query=Myers
Alan.
PS Further references to bio info held re Judah MYERS and Soloman Hyam MYERS recieved and forwarded to Michael.
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Minniehaha. Two attempts at a PM reply have gone west, unsure why. Take as under action next time Michael contacts me privately. He has other commitments keeping him busy at this time.
Thank you, Alan.
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RE: JACK MYERS
BIRTH was registered in Australia in 1873:
JACOB ABRAHAM MYERS son of Charles & Ellen Myers. Registered Sydney, NSW, Australia 1873 Registration No. 258
MARRIAGE was registered in Adelaide, Australia
JACOB ABRAHAM MYERS son of Charles Myers married DINAH BARNETT daughter of Mark Barnett 14 Feb 1900 Adelaide, South Australia.
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I very definitely think the next step in the puzzle is to get a printout of Samuel's NZ birth certificate, Michael. I have sent you the coordinates to do so. I received a printout the other day so the archives people are back on deck. Go for it.
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Another child, ESTHER was born in 1875 and died in 1876:
ESTHER MYERS daughter of Charles & Ellen Myers. Birth reg. Sydney, NSW 1875. Reg: 1753
ESTHER MYERS daughter of Charles & Helen (sic) Myers. Death reg. Sydney, NSW 1876 Reg: 1642
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There is a large amount of information on the divorce proceedings between Jacob Abraham Myers and Dinah Myers. I have not posted the links here out of respect for their son Harry's possible descendants. Also, I am not sure about copyright regulations.
Both parties remarried: Jacob 'Jack' to Rose CAMBRY in Lambeth, London 1918; and Dinah to Isaac GOLDSTEIN in 1911 Paddington, NSW, Australia.
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Jacob Abraham Myers & Dinah Barnett had a son HENRY MARK MYERS in 1901 Adelaide. Here is the birth transcription - it's the first time I've seen Jacob called 'Jack'.
The Sydney Morning Herald 18 January 1901: BIRTHS
MYERS - January 15, 1901, at her residence 124/194? Franklin Street, South Australia, Dinah, wife of Jack Myers, and youngest daughter of Mark Barnett, of Sydney, a son.
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Hello again.
Michael, hold off on requesting Samuel's cert, for now as I will explain in a PM.
The reading rooms at the National Archives are not fully open for registered readers, when I last looked, but expect them to be so once NZ goes to our [Covid-19] level one, which is expected to be announced in the middle of next week. At this time strict distancing rules are in play so the archives assistants are offering limited one on one personal research help. Paid for requests by email are being processed.
Alan.
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There is this 1864 Army Correspondence entry. The reference to providing a substitute shows that both men elected to pay a man to take their place in the ranks, but this is puzzling because as far as I was aware this was only possible in colonial Militia or Volunteer units, not the British Army. Does it refer to another individual?
Archives New Zealand Register Room: 1864 Deputy Adjutant General [Army] Inwards Correspondence Register Reference AD 51/2 -
http://www.nzpictures.co.nz/dag1864.pdf
1864/2023 Jul 23 Privates MYERS & Green have provided substitutes (Major St John, Rhode’s Clearing)
Spades
Hello again.
What a great transcription by Dawn CHAMBERS. All 223 pages I've saved for future reference.
The MYERS & GREEN one above, which is of interest to this post, is in a file held by the Wellington branch of Archives NZ, and available for inspection.
R3895433 AAYS 8669 AD 51/2 Correspondence Feb. 1862 - July 1864
Also for the record:-
R3895432 AAYS 8669 AD 51/1 Correspondence Sept. 1859 - Feb. 1862
R3895434 AAYS 8669 AD 51/3 Correspondence July 1864 - Feb. 1865
Includes a travelling register 1872.
R3895435 AAYS 8669 AD 51/4 Correspondence July 1864 - Feb. 1865
Alan.
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Research update.
I have continued to seek out original, and secondary support documents, relating to the surname MYERS, and in particular the, at least two, Charles MYERS, who for a period had land titles in the Cambridge and Ohaupo / Waipa area, of NZ, plus further reference to Nelson connections, and gold mining claims. Some very notable pioneer achievers among them; Auckland Civic, and central Government etc.
My reference spreadsheet has now grown to over 220 items, too many to list here where they challenge some previous assumptions. Particularly those made in good faith, by local history interests, before the advent of the www internet. Checking out original documents is proving to be a slow process, not helped by the spread of the retaining archives, and COVID lock downs. Was lucky with my two day visit to Auckland last week.
I'm privately communicating with Michael, and happy to share the spreadsheet of references with any MYERS family interests, who are researching their NZ links. While we don't have some records like census data, he is surprised how successful NZ has been in saving newspapers, and the detail with regard to land transactions. Last night he said for his area of London, he has only access to local newspapers that go back to 1870.
Alan
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And another update.
Following on from yesterdays name varient request, which I'm unable to check out at this time due to web maintenance.
RE: PAPERSPAST press snippets.
Lots 135 and 300 Ngaroto Parish, Ryburn Rd, Ohaupo.
While two, and four generation owners, and neighbours of these titles, [plus resident Ohaupo historian] today claim to have no knowledge of early local body minutes recording a MYERS CORNER, a Diedrich BARTELL and Edward/Edwin Barnes WALKER, were members of the 3rd Waikato Militia, along with a Charles MYERS.
Both the BARTELS, and the WALKER families, have been recorded as title holders for a period. In my research, to date, no MYERS appear to have been.
Interesting though three FIELD brothers have their interest recorded for a period against Lot 300. Fifteen acres of which, on the corner of Sing Road, is referred to in the composite press clip attached, as MYERS Corner.
In 1873 a widowed Mrs Charles MYERS is recorded in one published family tree [#100], as having married one of the South Island resident, Thomas FIELD’S. Plus inferrs, by reference to her birth, as being possibly a sister to our primary Charles MYERS. Therefore being Mrs MYERS nee MYERS. Contact with that family tree owner, could possibly be helpful.
Our Charles MYERS, of interest, having gained a grant in land some six miles away on Lot 189 TeRapa Parish, Lynd Rd, on the other side of Ohaupo, and did not stay to develop the land.
Within seven years he was in Australia, after probably being one of the Charles MYERS who registered some gold mining claims at Thames.
Diedrick BARTELS Crown Grant appears to have been Lot 176 Ngaroto Parish, what was then very peaty land, on the edge of a round lake at todays Jary Road. His son Henry Gustav [Harry] being named on the title of Lot 300.
The quest will continue after the Auckland lockdown eases.
Alan.
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"In 1873 a widowed Mrs Charles MYERS is recorded in one published family tree [#100], as having married one of the South Island resident, Thomas FIELD’S".....
This marriage:
1873/10786 Rachel Myers Thomas Field
Minniehaha.
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Yes Minniehaha.
Date of marriage was 25/2/1873. And the observation states he was a labourer of Hokitika in the 1875-76 electoral roll.
Therefore not to be confused with the three Thomas FIELD’s who became successful businessmen, and civic leaders, of Nelson.
Thomas FIELD from Kent who set up a successful brewery business from 1857.
Thomas FIELD who arrived in 1866 via Australia from Ireland. Started a successful Ironmonger business in Westport, that soon expanded to include Reefton and Nelson, as a general Merchandiser. In 1880 Mr Williams joined Mr FIELD and the business continued to grow with son Thomas Andrew FIELD eventually becoming the General Manager, and then an MP.
Alan.
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Further to this wonderful work of Dawn Chambers, is there an index available for the same please?
Archives New Zealand Register Room: 1864 Deputy Adjutant General [Army] Inwards Correspondence Register Reference AD 51/2 -
http://www.nzpictures.co.nz/dag1864.pdf
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Further to this wonderful work of Dawn Chambers, is there an index available for the same please?
Archives New Zealand Register Room: 1864 Deputy Adjutant General [Army] Inwards Correspondence Register Reference AD 51/2 -
http://www.nzpictures.co.nz/dag1864.pdf
Hi Wivenhoe, that is a PDF so you can run a search with your device.