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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MattD30 on Tuesday 07 April 20 17:28 BST (UK)
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Just a quick post here as I only have a little info. I'm hoping someone can help identify a christening for Sarah Barden c1745 possibly in the Fletching, Slinfold or Billingshurst areas of Sussex.
Hope someone can help.
Matt
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Hi Matt,
Any other info at all? Quite a large area to look through. What info led you to believe it would be in this area?
Regards
Sean
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Hi Matt,
Any other info at all? Quite a large area to look through. What info led you to believe it would be in this area?
Regards
Sean
Hi Sean
Sarah married John Botting in Fletching on 1 May 1766. They had 9 children who were all christened in Fletching between 1767 and 1779 [with the exception of their daughter Ann who was christened c1774 in Slinfold].
John Botting himself was christened in Fletching in January 1738/39.
It is more likely that Sarah was christened in Fletching as that is where she was married but other nearby parishes such as Slinfold and Billingshurst may be worth looking at as well.
Matt
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Sarah was buried in Fletching 25 Aug 1818 at the age of 82. This puts her birth a bit before your suggested time at around 1736. [Provided I have the right burial!]
There are a few likely candidates, here are their baptisms:
Herstmonceux on 8 Sep 1736 to Nicholas & Mary
Heathfield 30 Nov 1735 to John & Sarah (BARTON)
Heathfield 19 Sep 1738 to Richard & Elizabeth (BARTON)
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Sarah was buried in Fletching 25 Aug 1818 at the age of 82. This puts her birth a bit before your suggested time at around 1736. [Provided I have the right burial!]
There are a few likely candidates, here are their baptisms:
Herstmonceux on 8 Sep 1736 to Nicholas & Mary
Heathfield 30 Nov 1735 to John & Sarah (BARTON)
Heathfield 19 Sep 1738 to Richard & Elizabeth (BARTON)
Hi there
Thanks for that. It sounds about right in terms of her year of birth as I guessed she could be a year or two older or younger that John. If she was born in 1736 she'd be about 30 when married, 36 when their first child was born and 43 when the last was born in 1779 so it does seem a likely fit.
Does the burial say if she was a widow or not when buried? I assume this is on Findmypast.
Thanks again and I'll see if I can find out anything on the candidates you put forward.
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi Matt,
The burial info was from the Sussex Family History Group but I checked it on the parish registers at FamilySearch. It does not say whether she was a widow or not but all the burials for a John Botting were before hers. The National Archives holds a will for a John Botting Carpenter of Fletching but I am not sure it is the same one married to Sarah Barden, so father or son. They are free to download at the moment, might be worth a look.
Regards
Sean
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Hi
I've been doing some more digging on this lady in order to try to establish which candidate is more likely to be mine. Herstmoneux where Sarah dau of Nicholas and Mary was christened is 14 miles from Fletching where she married John Botting. On the other hand Heathfield, where there are two candidates [one in 1735 and one in 1738] is 10 miles away.
14 miles seems possible and a 1736 birth would fit with the burial in 1818. Then again 10 miles certainly seems closer but I can't see a burial I can't see a burial for either of the two Sarah BARTONS christened there.
Do you have any suggestions or ideas?
Many Thanks
Matt
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Hi Matt
I think I may have solved this.
On 18 Feb 1727 in Fletching Francis PAGE married Ann HOMEWOOD.
They had the following children
Ann 1733, Mary 1730, twins Jane and Edmund 1739 but they also had a daughter SARAH bpt. 22 Feb 1735.
On September 30th 1741 Francis Page was buried.
Five months later (using the Julian calendar still ) on the 23 February 1741 there is this marriage in Fletching
John BARDIN of Maresfield married Ann PAGE of Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQ8-ND?i=259&cat=583952
Hope the link works - Francis Pages burial and the Bardin/Page marriage is on that image.
I think Sarah used the name Bardin/Barden instead of her birth name , what do you think ?
Claire
PS - after looking at a prior post about the abstract of a Will I gave - it was in the Tyler abstracts on Ancestry
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Hi Matt
I think I may have solved this.
On 18 Feb 1727 in Fletching Francis PAGE married Ann HOMEWOOD.
They had the following children
Ann 1733, Mary 1730, twins Jane and Edmund 1739 but they also had a daughter SARAH bpt. 22 Feb 1735.
On September 30th 1741 Francis Page was buried.
Five months later (using the Julian calendar still ) on the 23 February 1741 there is this marriage in Fletching
John BARDIN of Maresfield married Ann PAGE of Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQ8-ND?i=259&cat=583952
Hope the link works - Francis Pages burial and the Bardin/Page marriage is on that image.
I think Sarah used the name Bardin/Barden instead of her birth name , what do you think ?
Claire
PS - after looking at a prior post about the abstract of a Will I gave - it was in the Tyler abstracts on Ancestry
Hi Claire
Wow I think you've done it again! It definitely looks like you solved the puzzle which is fantastic, I did think the other two places I had looked at where less likely. Heathfield could be a possibility as it is only 10 miles away, but I think it does make more sense for her to be from the same parish.
Have you seen the will you mentioned btw? Can you let me know anything about it as I don't have Ancestry myself.
I'm off to investigate this lot now.
Many, many thanks again.
Best Wishes
Matt
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The ancestry mention of the will of John Botting 1803 takes you to the National Archives website
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Hi Matt
I think I may have solved this.
On 18 Feb 1727 in Fletching Francis PAGE married Ann HOMEWOOD.
They had the following children
Ann 1733, Mary 1730, twins Jane and Edmund 1739 but they also had a daughter SARAH bpt. 22 Feb 1735.
On September 30th 1741 Francis Page was buried.
Five months later (using the Julian calendar still ) on the 23 February 1741 there is this marriage in Fletching
John BARDIN of Maresfield married Ann PAGE of Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQ8-ND?i=259&cat=583952
Hope the link works - Francis Pages burial and the Bardin/Page marriage is on that image.
I think Sarah used the name Bardin/Barden instead of her birth name , what do you think ?
Claire
PS - after looking at a prior post about the abstract of a Will I gave - it was in the Tyler abstracts on Ancestry
Hi Claire
I wonder if this might be the Ann Homewood in question here:
Anne Homewood christened 21 June 1708 Fletching, Sussex
Father: William Homewood
Mother Jane
She would be about 19 so it seems like a good fit. What do you think?
As for William and Jane there is a marriage dated 9 April 1702 at Fletching but on FamilySearch it only says "William Homewood" and "Jane G" so I don't know what her name is yet.
I'm trying to find a lead on the christenings of both Francis Page and John Bardin but so far no leads, but at the moment I'm only checking via FamilySearch.
Trying to see if I can find marriages or burials for any of the other Page children you mentioned, or the other Homewood children I've found.
This Anne looks like a strong candidate to me. Let me know what you think.
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi Matt
The baptism for Ann Homewood looks good given Ann & Francis name a daughter Jane in 1739 - after her mother.
William Homewood married Jane GILHAM or GILLIAM perhaps - I think that's what it looks like
check here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQH-KJ?i=176&cat=583952
claire
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I struggled most of the night looking for the Page children but found a marriage for one of the twins - Jane
John Langridge mar. Jane Page 25 Feb 1770 Fletching, Sussex.
This looks like it could be a contender for sister Ann, although she would have been in her fifties at this point.
Edmund Langridge mar. HANNAH Page 4 Mar 1789 Fletching.
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Hi Matt
The baptism for Ann Homewood looks good given Ann & Francis name a daughter Jane in 1739 - after her mother.
William Homewood married Jane GILHAM or GILLIAM perhaps - I think that's what it looks like
check here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQH-KJ?i=176&cat=583952
claire
Hi Claire
Thanks for confirming my thoughts on Ann. I think the names Gilham and Gilliam may be variations of the same so I'll check for her under both.
One thing that does puzzle me is this. Francis Page was buried on 30 September 1741 at Fletching as you said. The marriage of John Bardin to "Ann Page of Fletching" took place on what would be 30 February 1740/41.
What puzzles me is that February 1740/41 would be before September 1741 (if I have got it right).
Is Ann down as a widow on the marriage to John?
I have also found two possible candidates for William Homewood, but I am posting these on a new post.
Best Wishes
Matt
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The image for the burial and marriage in 1741 is quite confusing ( I have to keep going over the math to make sure I'm correct - I was looking at this family for hours yesterday ;D)
The image says " A true copy of the parish register of Fletching for the year 1741" - the first day of the year 1741 would be 25th March/Lady Day (using the Julian Calendar) - so - Francis Page was buried six months later in Sept. 1741. John Bardin and Ann Page married the following February (Five months after the burial)
1742 would begin on the 25 March or Lady Day again. We adopted the Gregorian Calendar in 1752 - what we use today.
I think I have solved FRancis - back in a bit ( need a brew)
Claire
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Hi Matt
Right there is a Page family baptising children in Fletching c1695 +/- 10 years
Richard Page mar Ann TULLEY a widow by Licence - both of Fletching c1 Feb 1688.
The couple had four children that I can see
Elizabeth bpt. Nov 1688, Richard bpt Aug 1691, Ann bpt. Aug 1695 and Sarah bpt. Feb 1699.
I can't find a son Francis at all.
In 1682 Fletching a William Tulley was baptised son of Francis and Ann Tulley.
I can then see two children baptised in West Hoathly (9 miles from Fletching) - Frances (daughter) in 1684 and a Benjamin bpt 1685.
I still can't find a Francis born to the couple, I cant find a burial for Francis the father yet. The only marriage in a credible distance is in Teston Kent and that is about 30 miles away - Francis Tully married Ann Seale in 1681.
That is as far as I've got but I definitely think the answer to Francis lies here somewhere.
Claire
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Hi Matt
Right there is a Page family baptising children in Fletching c1695 +/- 10 years
Richard Page mar Ann TULLEY a widow by Licence - both of Fletching c1 Feb 1688.
The couple had four children that I can see
Elizabeth bpt. Nov 1688, Richard bpt Aug 1691, Ann bpt. Aug 1695 and Sarah bpt. Feb 1699.
I can't find a son Francis at all.
In 1682 Fletching a William Tulley was baptised son of Francis and Ann Tulley.
I can then see two children baptised in West Hoathly (9 miles from Fletching) - Frances (daughter) in 1684 and a Benjamin bpt 1685.
I still can't find a Francis born to the couple, I cant find a burial for Francis the father yet. The only marriage in a credible distance is in Teston Kent and that is about 30 miles away - Francis Tully married Ann Seale in 1681.
That is as far as I've got but I definitely think the answer to Francis lies here somewhere.
Claire
Hi Claire
You're busy tonight, I was about to post a message to your last posing when you added this. I'm sure that the two marriages you found are correct but it does look odd to me date wise. Hopefully when I can see the original parish registers it will make more sense since if the Bardin/Page marriage is in the register after the burial of Francis Page then we know for sure what order the events happened in.
So no luck with finding when Francis was christened then. Maybe he wasn't from Fletching. I've been doing some digging into him myself and I'll keep looking.
More from me soon too.
Matt
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Hi Claire
A couple of possible leads on William Homewood. There's one christened in Fletching in Oct 1665 son of a John Homewood, and another christened in March 1689 son of another John. It looks like the William christened 1665 is potentially my William, with the William christened in 1689 being his nephew.
I've also found three possible candidates for Jane.
Jane Gilham christened 31 July 1665 Fletching - dau of John and Jane
Jane Gilham christened 23 August 1671 Fletching - dau of George and Elizabeth
Searching with the spelling Gilliam brought up the following, which although not a match may be worth considering given that the surname may have been transcribed wrong:
Jane William christened 13 November 1678 dau of William.
I can't find any burials yet but I think the top two are the most likely. Given that William and Jane called their second son John I'm leading more towards the 1665 christening.
Anyhow that's all from me for now. More tomorrow.
Many Thanks for your help again.
Matt
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Hi Matt
Found the Tully family again. They moved to Ardingly (8 miles from Fletching)
The daughter of Francis and Ann Tulley (Frances) was buried in Ardingly 23 Sept 1688
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCR3-2C?i=493&cat=75036
Francis Tully husband of Ann was buried 29 Aug 1686 - wonder if Francis had a brother James Tully (to a Jane Banester) - there is a marriage on the same page as his burial
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XCRQ-R1?i=491&cat=75036
Now to find Francis Page or possibly Tulley who married Ann Homewood :)
Claire
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Hi Claire
I see you've been hard at work like me. I've identified two possible candidates for Jane Gilham.
Jane Gilham christened 31 July 1665 at Fletching - dau of John and Jane
Jane Gilham christened 23 August 1671 at Fletching - dau of George and Elizabeth
I suspect John and George were brothers but I'm still working on them.
With regards to the Homewoods I have found an online tree on FamilySearch which suggests that the shows that the William Homewood who married Jane Gilham [parents of Anne who married Francis Page etc) was christened in 1665 the son of John Homewood and Frances Peckham. This William had a brother named John (christened 1663) who married woman named Mary Sneath.
John and Mary had four children including a son named William christened in 1689.
So it seems like the two William Homewoods we looked at were uncle and nephew which makes sense.
I'll send you a link so you can see it.
Remind me how the Tulley lot fit into all this.
Ok back to the Gilhams and Homewoods now.
Best Wishes
Matt
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The Tulley family is just a theory because I cannot find a baptism for a Francis Page at all.
Coincidence - there is a Page family in Fletching baptising children from 1688 onwards. The parents being Richard Page and Ann Tulley (she was a widow when she married Richard)
I now think the marriage I found in Teston may have been correct - Francis Tully married Ann SEALE in 1680.
When the widow Ann Tulley married Richard Page by licence surety was given by a William Seale of Fletching.
My guess is either Ann and Richard Page had a son Francis or Ann and her first husband Francis Tulley had a son Francis Tulley who went by the name Page when his mother remarried. Gosh that's confusing ::)
Back on this tomorrow.
Best wishes
Claire
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The Tulley family is just a theory because I cannot find a baptism for a Francis Page at all.
Coincidence - there is a Page family in Fletching baptising children from 1688 onwards. The parents being Richard Page and Ann Tulley (she was a widow when she married Richard)
I now think the marriage I found in Teston may have been correct - Francis Tully married Ann SEALE in 1680.
When the widow Ann Tulley married Richard Page by licence surety was given by a William Seale of Fletching.
My guess is either Ann and Richard Page had a son Francis or Ann and her first husband Francis Tulley had a son Francis Tulley who went by the name Page when his mother remarried. Gosh that's confusing ::)
Back on this tomorrow.
Best wishes
Claire
Hi Claire
I see. It sounds like two other problems I've encountered - one where a woman married twice and and a more complex one where an ancestor was married twice, and where the two women were also married twice!
I'm sure it'll make sense but I wouldn't worry too much about finding Francis if you can't see him. It would just be nice to know when he was born. Personally I'm concentrating on the Homewood line and the Bardins as that would be the side that interests me.
Anyhow I look forward to hearing anything new you find.
By the way I can confirm my theory about the Gilhams. John father of Jane christened in 1665, and George father of Jane christened in 1671 were brothers.
John Gilham christened 9 April 1639 Fletching - son of John
George Gilham christened August 1640 Fletching - son of John
I've also come across a will for an Edmund Gilham which may hold some clues too.
More from me tomorrow too.
Best wishes
Matt
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Hi Claire
Here's a link to the tree I've seen online showing the relationships between the two William Homewoods I've been looking at. At the moment I'm more inclined to think that the William christened in 1665 is the one I should be looking at rather than the 1671 one, but let me know your thoughts.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3NRV-9J6
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi Matt
Will be checking the Homewoods out later but I have got some news
The Page & Tulley families are wrong - maybe Richard Page is some sort of relation but here is what I’ve found.
Francis Page was born in Maresfield 16 March 1688/9 son of Edmund/Edward and Mary - given the names of Francis Page & Ann Homwoods children I think this is correct.
Given John Barden was of Maresfield I think a look at their PR’s May find him there.
Here is a link to ‘some’ of the Maresfield registers
http://theweald.net/area.asp?Pid=P81.4.2&t=2&y=6&p=0
Claire
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Hi Matt
Will be checking the Homewoods out later but I have got some news
The Page & Tulley families are wrong - maybe Richard Page is some sort of relation but here is what I’ve found.
Francis Page was born in Maresfield 16 March 1688/9 son of Edmund/Edward and Mary - given the names of Francis Page & Ann Homwoods children I think this is correct.
Given John Barden was of Maresfield I think a look at their PR’s May find him there.
Here is a link to ‘some’ of the Maresfield registers
http://theweald.net/area.asp?Pid=P81.4.2&t=2&y=6&p=0
Claire
Hi Claire
Thanks for that. I agree that this Francis Page looks like a more likely candidate.
I'm working on the Homewood and Gilham lines at the moment and I believe I've made progress with both. I'll update you on these later.
Still not having any luck finding John Bardin/Barden myself but I'm now checking on that website too.
More later.
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi Matt
Think we need to look further for Jane Gilham as I've found these burials
Jane Gilham buried 5 Sep 1671 Fletching. Dau. of George
Jane Gilham buried 13 Feb 1667 Fletching. Dau. of John the younger.
Are you having any luck finding PR's/ BT's for Maresfield bar what's on the link I sent. I know there are Bardens there (found through googling)
Off to look for Jane G
Claire
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Hi Matt
Think we need to look further for Jane Gilham as I've found these burials
Jane Gilham buried 5 Sep 1671 Fletching. Dau. of George
Jane Gilham buried 13 Feb 1667 Fletching. Dau. of John the younger.
Are you having any luck finding PR's/ BT's for Maresfield bar what's on the link I sent. I know there are Bardens there (found through googling)
Off to look for Jane G
Claire
Hi Claire
Well that is interesting, I'd made quite a bit of progress with this family tonight lol! I'd managed to get them back to a Thomas Gilham who was having children christened in Rotherfield in the 1600s. I hadn't found any burials for either Jane, but I have also been having problems getting various websites to work tonight as well.
I had look for the Page/Paige family in Maresfield via the link and I have found quite a few of them. I'm now trying to find wills for them. There is an extensive tree for the Page family on the website here
http://theweald.net/N10.asp?NId=160030491
There are references to the Homewood family here
http://theweald.net/N10.asp?NId=80230266
and here
http://theweald.net/N10.asp?NId=80230185
There are lots of results for the Homewoods/Holmwoods.
Oh well so it's back to the drawing board with the Gilhams then. I must admit I hadn't seen those burials myself so it's good you spotted them.
Good job I hadn't drawn up a tree for that lot lol!
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi Matt
Think we need to look further for Jane Gilham as I've found these burials
Jane Gilham buried 5 Sep 1671 Fletching. Dau. of George
Jane Gilham buried 13 Feb 1667 Fletching. Dau. of John the younger.
Are you having any luck finding PR's/ BT's for Maresfield bar what's on the link I sent. I know there are Bardens there (found through googling)
Off to look for Jane G
Claire
Hi Claire
Just wondering if you've had any luck in locating Jane G yet? I have been working on the Paiges and Homewoods and trying to find Wills but so far I've had no luck.
Let me know if you have any luck with them.
Best Wishes
Matt
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Just wondering if you've had any luck in locating Jane G yet?
Hi Matt
Butting in here, sorry ;D
There is a baptism indexed on FamilySearch at Fletching, 12 Sep 1680
William son of William + Jane Gillam
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBV1-GQN
Not sure whereabouts in the parish register, the one I am looking at is not in a great state, something seems to have eaten part of it.
This marriage?
7 Feb 1677/8, West Hoathly
William Gillham and Jane Rofey
Image here, right side page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRPS-3YP
Marriage was by licence (Lewes), dated 2 Feb, both of Fletching. She is Joan Rophie (Rophe) on this, details here
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex00chicuoft/page/46/mode/2up
There is a Lewes will, 1698/9, William Gillham, husbandman, of Fletching
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_1_43_136
We can see it on FamilySearch, either here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-69P7-RSZ?i=24&cat=685691
or here (we can download it from this link) - but I will delete this note later ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/records/images/image-details?dgsNumbers=4427675&rmsId=TH-267-11753-150405-74&imageIndex=24&singleView=true
He has daughter Jane Gillham, son William Gillham, wife Jane
Can we find that baptism of daughter Jane, possibly in Fletching?
John
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Searching with the spelling Gilliam brought up the following, which although not a match may be worth considering given that the surname may have been transcribed wrong:
Jane William christened 13 November 1678 dau of William.
Well done, Matt, you got her!
We can see the Fletching BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQ8-98?i=129&cat=583952
And it says
Bapt Jane ye daughter of William Gilham & of Jane his wife
We can also see it here ;)
https://www.familysearch.org/records/images/image-details?dgsNumbers=4428287&rmsId=TH-266-11614-7619-83&imageIndex=129&singleView=true
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Brilliant finds :)
Claire
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Ah thanks, Claire.
Matt actually had Jane - in a way!
But your own find of Sarah Barden/Page was the most brilliant of all :)
John
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Just wondering if you've had any luck in locating Jane G yet?
Hi Matt
Butting in here, sorry ;D
There is a baptism indexed on FamilySearch at Fletching, 12 Sep 1680
William son of William + Jane Gillam
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBV1-GQN
Not sure whereabouts in the parish register, the one I am looking at is not in a great state, something seems to have eaten part of it.
This marriage?
7 Feb 1677/8, West Hoathly
William Gillham and Jane Rofey
Image here, right side page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRPS-3YP
Marriage was by licence (Lewes), dated 2 Feb, both of Fletching. She is Joan Rophie (Rophe) on this, details here
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex00chicuoft/page/46/mode/2up
There is a Lewes will, 1698/9, William Gillham, husbandman, of Fletching
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_1_43_136
We can see it on FamilySearch, either here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-69P7-RSZ?i=24&cat=685691
or here (we can download it from this link) - but I will delete this note later ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/records/images/image-details?dgsNumbers=4427675&rmsId=TH-267-11753-150405-74&imageIndex=24&singleView=true
He has daughter Jane Gillham, son William Gillham, wife Jane
Can we find that baptism of daughter Jane, possibly in Fletching?
John
Hi John
No need to apologise at all! The more information anyone can shed on these people the better, all help is appreciated.
So do you think that the William christened in 1680 is the brother of the Jane Gilham I found christened in November 1678? It would make sense to me.
Thanks for the Will by the way. I couldn't download it, but I'll download a copy when I [eventually] get to the National Archives next.
Definitely looks like we've found my Jane and her family to me.
Anyhow I look forward to your next posting and suggestions.
Best Wishes
Matt
PS The identification of "Sarah Barden" [or Bardin] as "Sarah Page" was definitely brilliant. I now have to remember to put her on my tree as "Sarah Page" with a note saying [alias Sarah Bardin].
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Hi Matt
It's just the one Jane, baptized in Fletching in 1678, not long after that West Hoathly marriage.
Then a brother William in 1680 (though haven't found the image)
And the will of William of Fletching in 1699 names all three, his wife Jane, son William, daughter Jane. All very neat.
There is a probate inventory, William Holmewood of Fletching, 1734
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_10_2546
Appraisers Richard Page, William Gillham (familiar names!)
Could William be Jane's brother perhaps?
John
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Hi Matt
It's just the one Jane, baptized in Fletching in 1678, not long after that West Hoathly marriage.
Then a brother William in 1680 (though haven't found the image)
And the will of William of Fletching in 1699 names all three, his wife Jane, son William, daughter Jane. All very neat.
There is a probate inventory, William Holmewood of Fletching, 1734
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_10_2546
Appraisers Richard Page, William Gillham (familiar names!)
Could William be Jane's brother perhaps?
John
Hi John
Yes sorry I realised that straight after I posted my reply lol! I've revised my post now so the new one is above this.
Many thanks for the leads. I'm off to do some more digging into these now.
Matt
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Hi John
I've just been through those bits you sent me and I think I have found more on both William Gillam/Gilham and Jane Rophe.
I think this is probably the William who married Jane
William Gillam son of John Gillam - christened 21 December 1641 at Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBV1-ZQK
This William had siblings including a Jane Gillam christened in 1644 at Rotherfield.
It looks like John Gillam married Alice [Alce] Staplehurst in Fletching in May 1636
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK4N-Z6T
That marriage makes sense as the first child I've found for John Gillam in Fletching is a son named Thomas christened in June 1637
I think John may have been christened in Rotherfield on 26 March 1609 the son of Thomas Gillam. This would certainly make sense if he named his first son after his father.
There is also a John Gillam christened in West Hoathly in 1622 but as he'd only be 14 in 1636 I think he is less likely to be William's father.
What do you think?
Next up info on the Rophes!
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Looks like Jane was christened in Fletching in June 1652 daughter of Richard Roffe.
Richard Roffe married Mary Pollard in 1647 at Fletching. I've just started digging into her family as well. Looks like she was christened in Rotherfield in 1627 and was the daughter of John Pollard.
Matt
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Just wondering if you've had any luck in locating Jane G yet?
Hi Matt
Butting in here, sorry ;D
There is a baptism indexed on FamilySearch at Fletching, 12 Sep 1680
William son of William + Jane Gillam
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBV1-GQN
Not sure whereabouts in the parish register, the one I am looking at is not in a great state, something seems to have eaten part of it.
This marriage?
7 Feb 1677/8, West Hoathly
William Gillham and Jane Rofey
Image here, right side page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRPS-3YP
Marriage was by licence (Lewes), dated 2 Feb, both of Fletching. She is Joan Rophie (Rophe) on this, details here
https://archive.org/details/calendarofsussex00chicuoft/page/46/mode/2up
There is a Lewes will, 1698/9, William Gillham, husbandman, of Fletching
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_1_43_136
We can see it on FamilySearch, either here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-69P7-RSZ?i=24&cat=685691
or here (we can download it from this link) - but I will delete this note later ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/records/images/image-details?dgsNumbers=4427675&rmsId=TH-267-11753-150405-74&imageIndex=24&singleView=true
He has daughter Jane Gillham, son William Gillham, wife Jane
Can we find that baptism of daughter Jane, possibly in Fletching?
John
I just spotted another interesting connection. The will of William Gillam was witnessed by a Richard Page. William's daughter Jane married William Homewood in 1702 and their daughter Anne [christened 1708] married Francis Page in 1726/27. Francis was the son of Edward Page [or Paige] but it's possible Richard was also a relative.
Matt
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Looks like Jane was christened in Fletching in June 1652 daughter of Richard Roffe.
Hi Matt
I can offer up a will of a Richard Roffeyof Fletching, yeoman, from 1677/8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH9-C8P?i=597&cat=685691
Not sure who he is! He mentions a sister Jane
Talking of Richard Page, when looking for that will on the film, I quite literally stumbled on a will of a Richard Page of Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH9-ZDM?i=574&cat=685691
Obviously it is from around the same time, so perhaps not going to be terribly relevant :(
John
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Looks like Jane was christened in Fletching in June 1652 daughter of Richard Roffe.
Hi Matt
I can offer up a will of a Richard Roffeyof Fletching, yeoman, from 1677/8
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH9-C8P?i=597&cat=685691
Not sure who he is! He mentions a sister Jane
Talking of Richard Page, when looking for that will on the film, I quite literally stumbled on a will of a Richard Page of Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH9-ZDM?i=574&cat=685691
Obviously it is from around the same time, so perhaps not going to be terribly relevant :(
John
Hi John
I did a lot of looking for Wills today but I didn't spot those two, although I did find the wills of several members of the Gilham [Gillam] family including William Gilham's father John Giham [died 1675] and also the will of John's wife Alice [died 1681].
I think I know who the first will you found relates to. I think that will [Richard Roffey 1677/78] probably relates to Richard Roffie who was christened on 10 September 1654 in Fletching, the son of Richard Roffie and Mary Pollard. As well as a sister named Jane he also mentions a brother named John and Richard and Mary's first child was a son named John [1648]. Also he makes John one of his overseers so I am assuming he was probably older.
The Page/Paige tree is a new one to me and one that'll have to look into. I have found some online trees which show Edward Paige [father of Francis born 1688/89] as being born in Buxted in 1660 the son of Edmund Page born 1641.
That last Edmund was born in Buxted in 1641 and appears to have been the son of William Paige. William himself was christened c1615 and I think he may have been christened in Mayfield in November 1606 the son of Christopher and Elizabeth Paige but that is only a theory.
Buxted and Fletching are only 4 miles apart so I am pretty sure there's a link, especially as all the records I look at give the same details and quote sources including PR [some quote more than others].
I've not spotted a Richard Page in my research yet so who is this man?
These wills may also be worth looking at though
Ann Page of Fletching 1641
Francis Paige of Fletching 1696
David Paige of Fletching 1694
All are on my list for checking.
Ok let's have a proper look at that will of Richard Page now. See what I can find.....
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi Matt and jonw65
A few PCC Wills that may be of interest at a later date (some are a bit early) - I'll get a look at the first two and see if they are ancestors of your 'John Bardin'
Robert Burden , 28 Oct 1658, Fletching , Sussex,
Robert Barden , 19 Apr 1648, Fletching , Sussex
William Gillham, 21 Nov 1785, Fletching , Sussex
The Will of William Gillham (Jane's father) - wonder if the Richard Page that witnessed his Will is the same man who married Ann Tully nee Seale (mentioned in an earlier post)
I've been trying to find anything on John Barden/Bardin but I can't find anything - I have a few baptisms but nothing concrete as yet.
Regards
Claire
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Hi Matt and jonw65
A few PCC Wills that may be of interest at a later date (some are a bit early) - I'll get a look at the first two and see if they are ancestors of your 'John Bardin'
Robert Burden , 28 Oct 1658, Fletching , Sussex,
Robert Barden , 19 Apr 1648, Fletching , Sussex
William Gillham, 21 Nov 1785, Fletching , Sussex
The Will of William Gillham (Jane's father) - wonder if the Richard Page that witnessed his Will is the same man who married Ann Tully nee Seale (mentioned in an earlier post)
I've been trying to find anything on John Barden/Bardin but I can't find anything - I have a few baptisms but nothing concrete as yet.
Regards
Claire
Hi Claire & jonw65
I'll take a look at those wills tomorrow. The 1785 will of William Gillham is a little late though given that Jane Gilham who married William Homewood was born in 1678. So I don't think that one will be worth looking at.
It would be nice to know when John Bardin/Barden was christened but I'm not too worried about going back beyond his parents given that my ancestor [Sarah] was a Page [or Paige] by birth so that's the side I need to follow.
The puzzle I have now is which Page line do I follow?
Francis Page was christened in Maresfield on 16 March 1688/89 and was the son Edward Page [or possibly Edmund]
There are two candidates for this Edward Paige
Edward Paige christened 30 July 1660 in Buxted - son of Edmund Paige
Edward Page christened 12 July 1663 in Fletching - son of Richard and Susan Page
Both Buxted and Rotherfield are close to Maresfield - Buxted is about 4 miles away and Fletching is 2 miles away. So which is my one?
Hopefuly some we can find the answers in wills or other probate records.
I'll do more digging tomorrow.
Matt
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Hi Claire and jon65
I just did some quick digging and found a new puzzle.
There is a will for a David Page of Fletching dated 6 March 1693 [Probate 3 February 1694] this David is almost certainly the same David who Richard Page mentioned in his 1677 will describing him as the "youngest son of my brother Francis Page of Fletching"
In his will David Page refers to "my nephew Francis Page son and heir of my brother Edmund Page of Maresfield"
Originally I though this "Francis Page" was the same Francis who was christened on 16 March 1688/89 at Maresfield son of Edward/Edmund Page. The problem is that David makes his nephew Francis his executor.
So there seem to be two Francis Pages around at the same time.
We know that Anne Homewood married Francis Page/Paige in 1727 and she was born 1708 in Fletching. I will see if I can find when this second Francis Page was christened tomorrow.
Obviously the problem is, if the Francis Page christened in Maresfield in 1688/89 is David's nephew then he surely can't have been his Executor in 1694 when he was only 5 or 6!
Matt
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I think this is probably the William who married Jane
William Gillam son of John Gillam - christened 21 December 1641 at Fletching
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBV1-ZQK
This William had siblings including a Jane Gillam christened in 1644 at Rotherfield.
It looks like John Gillam married Alice [Alce] Staplehurst in Fletching in May 1636
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK4N-Z6T
That marriage makes sense as the first child I've found for John Gillam in Fletching is a son named Thomas christened in June 1637
I think John may have been christened in Rotherfield on 26 March 1609 the son of Thomas Gillam. This would certainly make sense if he named his first son after his father. be 14 in 1636 I think he is less likely to be William's father.
What do you think?
Hi Matt
It sounds very promising indeed. Will try and look at those wills you mentioned.
I may have to leave the Pages to Claire and yourself, am finding them a bit difficult to cope with :(
John
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Hi John and Claire
I've had a chance to look through all the Homewood and Gillam/Gilham wills today and I've made notes on them. I think I have worked out who each will relates to. There is one problem though - reading the names of the witnesses.
Can you guys see if you can work out the names of the witnesses in the following wills
William Gilham of Fletching 1698/99
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-69P7-RSZ?i=24&cat=685691
John Gilham the elder of Fletching 1675
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH9-Z61?i=16&cat=685691
I am pretty sure this John Gilham is the grandfather of Jane Gilham who married William Homewood. In the will John refers to a legacy of Ten pounds left to his daughter Mary by "her grandfather John Staples"
I have a marriage for John Gilham to Alice Staplehurst in Fletching in 1636 and it's possible that "John Staple" might be her father [I'm looking for wills]
Mary Gilham of Fletching widow 1685
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1GQ-LL1?i=699&cat=685691
This Mary was, I think, the daughter of the above John Gilham. The "Jane Gilham widow" she refers to is probably her sister in law Jane Roffey/Roffie who married Mary's brother William in 1677/78. However I haven't found christenings for the daughters Sarah and Margaret whom she mentions.
Alice Gilham of Fletching widow 1681
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6D39-DP5?i=912&cat=685691
This Alice is definitely the widow of John Gilham who died in 1677/78 and as well as her children she also mentions her granddaughter "Margaret Gilham" so I think this is probably the same Margaret referred to by Mary Gilham in her will [I believe Mary was the daughter of Alice and John]
William Homewood the elder of Fletching 1734
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1WS-NVN?i=243&cat=685691
This William is the father of Anne Homewood who married Francis Page [she is named as "my daughter Anne the wife of Francis Page"]
William Homewood of Fletching 1751
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-68YT-MG?i=918&cat=685691
I think this William is the oldest son of the above William.
I also have some more Homewood wills as well as Page and Roffey wills to look at and I'll let you know what else I find out.
My next puzzle is to work out the Page family though.
Best Wishes
Matt
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Hi
Witnesses:
William Gillham 1698 -- Richard Page, Richard Boots (possibly Roots) and John Osben (Osbourne perhaps)
John Gilham 1675 -- Thomas Awcocke & John Fleete - maybe put a snip of Thomas Awcocke on the deciphering board, it's a bit tricky.
Mary Gilham 1685 -- Willliam Rootes, John Fleete and Ann Packham (marriage of a lady by this name in Fletching 1690)
Alice Gilham 1681 -- John , Jane and Benjamin Fleete
William Homewood 1734 -- Thomas Coomber , Plesent Sharp and Thomas Hall - the latter two married each other in Poling 1735
William Homewood 1751 -- William Foord, Elizabeth Foord and Thomas Roff
Well - I think that's what they all are, but I'm open to correction ;)
Claire
PS - wonder who the Fleet family were - they appear as witnesses in several of the Wills
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Hi
Witnesses:
William Gillham 1698 -- Richard Page, Richard Boots (possibly Roots) and John Osben (Osbourne perhaps)
John Gilham 1675 -- Thomas Awcocke & John Fleete - maybe put a snip of Thomas Awcocke on the deciphering board, it's a bit tricky.
Mary Gilham 1685 -- Willliam Rootes, John Fleete and Ann Packham (marriage of a lady by this name in Fletching 1690)
Alice Gilham 1681 -- John , Jane and Benjamin Fleete
William Homewood 1734 -- Thomas Coomber , Plesent Sharp and Thomas Hall - the latter two married each other in Poling 1735
William Homewood 1751 -- William Foord, Elizabeth Foord and Thomas Roff
Well - I think that's what they all are, but I'm open to correction ;)
Claire
PS - wonder who the Fleet family were - they appear as witnesses in several of the Wills
Hi Claire
Thanks for those, they certainly clarify what I thought the names were.
I'll see if I can find anything out about the those Fleete people and see if they're connected with anyone. I think I have enough to start building up a family tree for these families now which is good.
Who did that Ann Packham marry by the way? I have other Packhams in my family tree in Fletching and it would be interesting to know if she is related.
Another update tomorrow. Off to check out some more wills now, for the Page, Pollard and Roffey/Roffie families.
Matt
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Hi Matt
Anne Packham married James Marten 15 June 1690 Fletching
Claire
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Hi Matt
Anne Packham married James Marten 15 June 1690 Fletching
Claire
I thought it was her! James and Anne are my ancestors as well! The Martin/Marten line marries into the Botting line, which links with Page family via Sarah Page [alias Bardin/Barden].
Isn't it funny how these names and families crop up again and again.
Matt
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Hi Claire and John
Can either of you see if you can locate these wills online?
William Homerd [Homewood] of Fletching
Dated 10 October 1661 Probate 15 May 1663
Anne Page widow of Fletching
March 1641
John Pollard of Fletching
Probate 11 December 1634
I've found most of the other wills relating to the families we've looked at here [Page, Homewood, Gilham, Roffie] but these are proving elusive.
If anyone can locate them it will be a great help.
Also can you guys [or anyone else] take a look at the 1677 will of Richard Page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRH9-ZDM?cat=685691
After the bit where he mentions his wife Dorothy he refers to "Anne ye wife of...…"
Any ideas on what her husband's name is?
Ok more from me tomorrow, I'm trying to put together a tree for the Page family (I've managed to do one for the Homewood family).
Thanks for any suggestions and help
Matt
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Hi Matt
I think Ann's husband is Reginald(er) Jarvice (Jarvis) - though I cant find any records for him yet
claire
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Hi Matt
I think Ann's husband is Reginald(er) Jarvice (Jarvis) - though I cant find any records for him yet
claire
Hi Claire
That roughly what I thought it was but I've not seen a name like it before. Like you I can't find any reference to him in any records yet.
Just doing some groundwork on the Homewood Page families today. The Homewoods are ok but there is a puzzle regarding the Page family.
I have wills for Francis Page [dated 1696] and David Page [dated 1693/94] who are father and son.
We can be certain these are father and son based on the contents of these wills
In his will Francis refers to "my son in law Richard Willard of Chiddingly" and also mentions his "three grandchildren Marie Willard, Richard Willard and Francis Willard"
In his 1693/94 will David Page refered to "Mary, Richard & Frances Willard ye children of my brother in law Richard Willard of Chddingly"
So clearly both David Page and Richard Willard's wife were children of Francis Page who died in 1696. Oddly he mentions his son David in his will but it could have been written before David died.
Anyhow here is the odd thing.
David named his nephew "Francis Page son & heir of my brother Edmund Page of Maresfield" as his sole executor.
I've established that Francis married Mary Pritchet in June 1643 at Fletching. They had the following children who were all christened at Fletching:
Mary Page 1643
Edmund Page 1646
David Page 1648
Mary Page 1651
Frances Page 1655
Frances Page married Richard Willard in Chiddingly in 1678 and the three children named above in the wills above were born there in the 1680s.
Now the executor David names is "Francis Page son & heir of my brother Edmund Page of Maresfield"
We know that the Francis Page who married Anne Homewood was christened in Maresfield in March 1688/89 and was apparently the son of Edmund Page [possibly Edward].
He'd only about 5ish in 1693/94 so surely not old enough to be the executor of his uncle David's will.
I can't see any other Francis Pages who are sons of Edmund though.
The other odd thing is this. There is an Edward Page born in Buxted in 1660 who appears to have been the son of an Edmund Page born in Buxted in 1641. This Edward would certainly be old enough to be the father of Francis Page born in 1688/89.
It looks to me like we are missing a Francis Page somewhere. I think the one born in Maresfield in 1688/89 is more likely to be the son of Edward/Edmund Page who was born in 1660, than the son of the Edmund born 1646. Edward/Edmund [1660] doesn't seem to have a brother called David also.
I just wish I could find another Francis Page born to Edmund probably in the 1660s or 1670s who I could be certain was old enough to be the executor of that will.
Definitely a puzzle.
Matt
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I may have a solution.
Is there any sign of a christening for Francis Page in the Fletching area between the 1600s and 1620s?
I'll post a proper update tomorrow.
Matt
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Hi Matt
I’ve looked at this and can’t find a baptism of a Francis Page (yet) - I also can’t find an Edmond/Edward Page marriage to fit the bill either, unless he married further afield and I’ve found a couple in London which I’m looking into - it was only a 40 mile horse ride away ;D
Best wishes
Claire
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Hi Matt
I’ve looked at this and can’t find a baptism of a Francis Page (yet) - I also can’t find an Edmond/Edward Page marriage to fit the bill either, unless he married further afield and I’ve found a couple in London which I’m looking into - it was only a 40 mile horse ride away ;D
Best wishes
Claire
Hi Claire
It's a big mystery. I'm pretty sure the Francis Page who married Mary Pritchet in 1643 is the father of Edmund [1646], David [1648] and Frances [1655]
That Edmund is the one who died in 1696 leaving a will. Frances [1655] married Richard Willett.
Now take a look at the tree here
http://www.theweald.org/N10.asp?NId=160030491
This shows Francis Page [1688/89], Mary Page [1690] and their siblings as being the children of an Edward/Edmund Page born in Buxted in 1660.
Francis is certainly the man who married Anne Homewood and who was the father of Sarah.
From what I can work out this Francis cannot be the nephew David Page refers to in his will. In other words he can't be the son of Edmund [born 1646] given that he'd be under 10 when David's will was proved if he was.
I think we may be looking at cousins here, with one set not yet found.
Can you double check the christening of Francis [christened 16 March 1688/89] at Maresfield?
The tree at the above link has his father's name as "Edward/Edmund" and I think that's where the problem lies. There is an "Edward Page" christened in Buxted in 1660 who is probably this man's father. He would appear to be the son of an Edmund Page born in Buxted in 1641. Those dates add up.
It is possible I think that the Francis Page who married Mary Pritchet was an uncle of Edmund born in 1641. I think he'd be born in the 1620s so it would work out
So at the moment until we can work out who this other Francis Page is it looks like I'm stuck on who those wills relate to. I feel certain we can be confident that my Francis is the son of Edward/Edmund born in 1660. The real question is was he Edward or Edmund? It's the line I'm sticking with until we know who the wills relate to.
Matt
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Hi
It's been a while since I posted on here as I've been working through various wills associated with the Gilham and Homewood/Holmwood families.
I have now come across a new puzzle regarding the Homewood family in Fletching. The problem I have relates to the question of who William Homewood [1599/1600] was married to. We know that he had seven children as follows:
Mary - born February 1623/24 Fletching
Jane - born February 1625/26 Fletching
William - born January 1627/28 Fletching died 1629
John - born January 1628/29 - married Frances Peckham
Joan - born March 1631/32
Anne - born Januray 1634/35 [possibly twin]
William - born - January 1634/35 [possibly twin]
The puzzle is that there are two possible marriages for William snr.
First there is a marriage in Chailey on 6 August 1623 for William Homewood to Joane Paine.
Second there is a marriage at Lewes on 3 August 1624 [by Licence] for William Homewood of Bolney to Winifred Holden of Henfield.
Chailey is about 3 miles from Fletching and Lewes is about 8 miles from Fletching.
Several online trees show the mother of these Homewood children as being Winifred and I have only seen one which shows the mother as being Joan.
There's no indication on the marriage licence that the William who married Winifred was a widower, but is it possible that the same William was married to Joane [by whom he had his daugter Mary] and then Winifred [by whom he had Jane and all the other children]?
William died in 1663 leaving a will in which he mentions his children and grandchildren but not his wife so that doesn't help identify her. One of the witnesses may have been an "Anthony Holden" however.
Can any of you guys help work this out? Could William have been married twice?
I might post a separate message btw but thought I'd add this on here.
Hope all are well
Best Wishes
Matt
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Matt
Might this post be better as a separate subject since you seem to be focussing on William Holmewood rather than Sarah Barden?
Where did William say he lived when he made his will, please?
There is a baptism of a Mary Homewood in Henfield in Jan 1624/25 - I would suggest her mother is Winifred since she was described as of Henfield on the licence and often women returned to their home for their first child's birth/baptism. Then there is a baptism for Jane Homewood in Bolney in September 1626 - again her mother is probably Winifred and Bolney is where the family lived.
So the Fletching family may well be William & Joan, but you will need to do some more research for your proof.
A Winifred Holden was buried in Henfield in 1641, widow of Roger - maybe Winifred's mother? scrub that see below
Nell
Added: Baptism of Winifred 16 Aug 1602, at Henfield daughter of Edward Holden.
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Matt
Might this post be better as a separate subject since you seem to be focussing on William Holmewood rather than Sarah Barden?
Where did William say he lived when he made his will, please?
There is a baptism of a Mary Homewood in Henfield in Jan 1624/25 - I would suggest her mother is Winifred since she was described as of Henfield on the licence and often women returned to their home for their first child's birth/baptism. Then there is a baptism for Jane Homewood in Bolney in September 1626 - again her mother is probably Winifred and Bolney is where the family lived.
So the Fletching family may well be William & Joan, but you will need to do some more research for your proof.
A Winifred Holden was buried in Henfield in 1641, widow of Roger - maybe Winifred's mother? scrub that see below
Nell
Added: Baptism of Winifred 16 Aug 1602, at Henfield daughter of Edward Holden.
Hi Nell
Yes I'm adding a separate post just about William Homewood but as there has been a lot of discussion about them here I thought it useful to add the details here.
I'll try to answer your question in brief here but I'll start a new thread for this topic so it's probably best to post answers there.
Anyhow on to your questions.
Firstly in his 1663 will William Homewood states he was "of Fletching in the county of Sussex" - you can see the will here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DRZ4-W2D?i=783&cat=685691
In this he mentions
his daughter Jane Snell
his son John Homward [another variation of Homewood]
his granddaughter Catherine Tester
and lastly his daughter Mary Tester who he makes Executrix
Jane Homewood married Thomas Snell at Fletching on 27 May 1651
Mary Homewood married William Tester at Fletching on 7 August 1651
The will was witnessed by a William Tester and Thomas Snell.
The last witness's first name was Anthony and his surname might be Holden.#
My laptop is being a little slow tonight so I'll stop here and post a more detailed thread as a new board.
Matt
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The idea of Sarah Bardin being born Sarah Page then adopting the name Bardin when her mother remarried is a good one and is clearly a possibility
There's a problem . . . that Sarah's sisters were married as "Page". Of course Sarah may have viewed things differently.
I think I slightly prefer Sarah Bardin/Barden who was born in Herstmonceux on 8 Sep 1736, daughter of Nicholas Barden and Mary Dray who married in Wartling on 15 Apr 1734.
But I recognise that it is probably impossible to resolve this with any certainty.
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The idea of Sarah Bardin being born Sarah Page then adopting the name Bardin when her mother remarried is a good one and is clearly a possibility
There's a problem . . . that Sarah's sisters were married as "Page". Of course Sarah may have viewed things differently.
I think I slightly prefer Sarah Bardin/Barden who was born in Herstmonceux on 8 Sep 1736, daughter of Nicholas Barden and Mary Dray who married in Wartling on 15 Apr 1734.
But I recognise that it is probably impossible to resolve this with any certainty.
I had also seen that christening when I was researching the various families connected to Sarah but after examining all the relevant wills and other documents I am as confident as I can be that Sarah Bardin/Barden was born Sarah Page.
This is all based on relationships mentioned in various Page wills, and the wills of related families which clearly show a pattern.
That said I haven't looked at the Page or Barden line since last year and it's always good to keep an open mind. Who were these sisters that were married as "Page"?
The Sarah from Herstmonceux could be related somehow and she's someone who it is worth me keeping in mind.
Sadly I don't have my Barden/Page family trees or wills to hand but I will take a deeper look at them as well just for certainty. That said Sarah "Barden/Bardin" was married to John Botting at Fletching in 1766, John was from Fletching and their children were all christened there as well. So it would seem to make sense for Sarah to be from there as well.
As I said though, there's no harm in double checking the details especially in the wills etc just to be certain.
Who knows Sarah from Herstmonceux could be a cousin.
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It's been two years since by last post on this subject and I've now discovered I've been tracing the wrong line!!!! Arggh!
I've been sorting my sort material out over the last year [my lockdown project] and went back through my original notes on the Botting family. In my notes I found a note of the Botting-Barden marriage with a reference for what I assumed was the original parish register for Fletching.
The Fletching parish registers are available online on Familysearch and I was able to quickly locate the marriage of John Botting and Sarah Barden.
This showed that [1] both were "of this parish" and [2] that Sarah was a spinster. Her surname looks to be either Bardon or Bardan [maybe Barden] but the record clearly says she is a spinster.
So all my time looking into those Page and associated families was for nothing lol! It looks like I'm back at the drawing board.
Thanks to all those who helped in the past two years, I'm sorry it turned out to be a waste.
Once again I'm open to suggestions to when/where Sarah may have been born.
Matt
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Hi Matt
So sorry. How did we miss it?
It is always a very good idea to go over our research again (and again!)
Witnesses were Richard Marten and John Relfe.
Relfe is undoubtedly a regular :(
You can download the marriage record if you want via their image viewer
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ret/
The banns are available and confirm that Sarah was a spinster
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYLH-57X
Marriage is also transcribed on FreeReg.
Jon
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Hi Matt and John,
Might be my age but I'm a bit confused ??? ;D
I don't think the issue of Sarah's marital status at marriage was ever mentioned.
The Page family were introduced by my theory that Sarah (Barden) may have been the daughter of Francis PAGE and his wife Ann. When Francis Page died his widow Ann Page went on to marry a Mr Barden. My theory being that Sarah may have taken the Barden surname on as her own once her mother remarried in Fletching.
So the Page theory could be correct by my thinking.
Best wishes
Claire
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I think it really does show it is sometimes worth going over bits again - and even again!
I knew I had a copy of the original record in my files but wasn't able to find it and only found my notes. There's always been something niggling me about the possible Barden/Page connection and no matter how much I researched the Page line I couldn't prove a link [even a minor one] to my Sarah Barden who married John Botting. Hence I took another look at the record.
I have tried to attach a copy of the record image but it won't attach to this message [am I doing something wrong?]. However it clearly states "Sarah Barden [of this] parish Spinster" so we can be in no doubt of this.
You can see the Banns on Familysearch here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYLH-57X?i=356&cat=215426
The marriage entry is here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYLH-K67?i=328&cat=215426
Now there are a number of trees on Ancestry which give her birth/christening as taking place in Fletching in 1745 but the parents vary from Thomas and Catherine to John and Mary. I am checking the Fletching PR and BTs for any possible Bardens between 1730 and 1750 and I have also contacted the tree owners on Ancestry to see if they can tell me where the info is from. I am not convinced by the one with Thomas and Catherine as parents though as this has them married in London!
Anyhow I guess I have more digging to do.
Matt
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Hi Matt
Thinking about it all, and two years is a long time, does Sarah being a spinster in itself prevent her from being Sarah Page/Barden?
If it was her mother Ann(e) who was widowed? (born Homewood, married Francis Page, then married John Bardin)
Though it isn't confirmed that Anne was a widow when she married John Bardin (if not, then it does seem to rule that Sarah out)
Lewes Sessions: orders relating to poor relief
14 July 1748
BARDEN John, wife Anne; Elizabeth 5 and Frances 1¾; JPs order removing them from Fletching to Maresfield confirmed [Order 30 April 1748 endorsed delivered 2 May, QR/477/46; John BARDEN of Maresfield married Ann PAGE at Fletching 1742].
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_Q_1_5_19_1748-07-14
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a marriage for one of the twins - Jane
John Langridge mar. Jane Page 25 Feb 1770 Fletching, Sussex.
Perhaps Jane Langridge, widow of John, buried 25 Jun 1805, Fletching. Age 65 (FreeReg)
Jane and Edmund Page baptized 27 April 1739, so that's a reasonable match on age.
I don't think there are burials in Fletching for John and Anne Barden.
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Hi Matt
Thinking about it all, and two years is a long time, does Sarah being a spinster in itself prevent her from being Sarah Page/Barden?
If it was her mother Ann(e) who was widowed? (born Homewood, married Francis Page, then married John Bardin)
Though it isn't confirmed that Anne was a widow when she married John Bardin (if not, then it does seem to rule that Sarah out)
Lewes Sessions: orders relating to poor relief
14 July 1748
BARDEN John, wife Anne; Elizabeth 5 and Frances 1¾; JPs order removing them from Fletching to Maresfield confirmed [Order 30 April 1748 endorsed delivered 2 May, QR/477/46; John BARDEN of Maresfield married Ann PAGE at Fletching 1742].
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_Q_1_5_19_1748-07-14
Hi John
Yes I guess that is still a possibility and was something I have been considering. I need to find some sort of concrete evidence to prove that though, a will would be lovely.
For now I have removed all the info on the Page family and the related families from my tree until I sort it out. It seems that Sarah certainly wasn't a widow so from the term "spinster" we can probably deduce one of two things:
1] She was a spinster in the literal sence of the word
or
2] She was Sarah Page but had "taken" the "Bardin" name. Maybe she had been unofficially adopted by her stepfather?
If the answer is [1] then we should be able to find a christening for her. As mentioned before there are several trees online which show her born in Fletching between 1735 ane 1745 and give parents names. So far I have not found any record of a Sarah Barden/Bardin/Bordan in the Fletching PRs or BTs however.
So if she was a spinster literally, then there is more digging. If she was Sarah Page, well I've got to dig some more for that proof lol!
I guess that's why we love family history.
Matt
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Hi Matt
What about this?
Thomas Barden of Balcombe, farmer; registered will with grant of probate
Archdeaconry of Lewes, 8 April 1780
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_1_64_143
Here it is
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4V7-HCY
He mentions nieces galore, including Sarah, the wife of John Botten.
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Those four nieces he names together, including Sarah Botten, might be sisters?
Ann, wife of John Marten, Mary Barden, and Elizabeth, the wife of Richard Marten, are the other three.
Remembering that a Richard Marten was a witness at the John Botting - Sarah Barden marriage.
Jon
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Sussex Marriage Index
Richard Martin + Elizabeth Barden, 5 Oct 1758, Lindfield
John Martin + Ann Barden, 20 Oct 1770, Lindfield
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Hi Matt
What about this?
Thomas Barden of Balcombe, farmer; registered will with grant of probate
Archdeaconry of Lewes, 8 April 1780
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PBT_1_1_64_143
Here it is
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4V7-HCY
He mentions nieces galore, including Sarah, the wife of John Botten.
Thanks for that, it may well be a help. Not sure where Balcombe is is relation to Fletching but it's certainly worth looking at.
Matt
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Those four nieces he names together, including Sarah Botten, might be sisters?
Ann, wife of John Marten, Mary Barden, and Elizabeth, the wife of Richard Marten, are the other three.
Remembering that a Richard Marten was a witness at the John Botting - Sarah Barden marriage.
Jon
Now this interesting! John Botting, who married Sarah Barden, was born in Fletching in 1739 to John and Sarah Botting [maiden name Cogan I think].
This John [the father] was born in 1716 and was the son of another John Botting and his wife Elizabeth Martin who married in 1714.
Could the Martens mentioned in that will be cousins of John Botting who married Sarah Barden, or cousins of Thomas Barden? It would make sense in a way if the witnesses to the Botting/Barden marriage were relatives.
More digging needed but this is certainly food for thought.
Matt
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Those four nieces he names together, including Sarah Botten, might be sisters?
Ann, wife of John Marten, Mary Barden, and Elizabeth, the wife of Richard Marten, are the other three.
Remembering that a Richard Marten was a witness at the John Botting - Sarah Barden marriage.
Jon
One of the witnesses to the will was a Richard Page. Could he be related to the Francis Page who married Ann Homewood [see the reply posted by Claire above]? After Francis died it looks like Ann [ass Ann Page] married John Bardin in 1741 in Fletching.
Are these people all connected?
Matt
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Hi
Well he could be. Or it could be a coincidence. I'm having trouble finding any parish records for Lindfield.
In Balcombe there is a Richard Page baptism (1724), a marriage (1746) and a burial (1791), are they all the same person?
I'm also having trouble finding a burial for Thomas Barden in 1780!
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Hi
Well done Jon - good finds indeed :)
Thomas Barden was buried 15 March 1780 Balcombe, Sussex.
Like you struggling with records for Lindfield, it's records are a bit thin on the ground.
Claire
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Hi
Well he could be. Or it could be a coincidence. I'm having trouble finding any parish records for Lindfield.
In Balcombe there is a Richard Page baptism (1724), a marriage (1746) and a burial (1791), are they all the same person?
I'm also having trouble finding a burial for Thomas Barden in 1780!
Looks like you and I are both looking up the same details lol!
I can't see the PR or any BTs for Lindfield online for the right dates yet.
I did find a burial for Thomas Barden - 15 March 1780 at Balcome
The record can be seen here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2QW-DNF8
I'm trying to see if I can find his christening and christenings/marriages for his siblings. The aim is to see if I can find those nieces he mentioned.
I am wondering if Thomas is related to the John Bardin who married Ann Page [previousy Homewood] mentioned in those earlier messages.
They may not be related of course, but if those girls mentioned by Thomas are his nieces then he must have had at least one brother.
Matt
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Hi
Well done Jon - good finds indeed :)
Thomas Barden was buried 15 March 1780 Balcombe, Sussex.
Like you struggling with records for Lindfield, it's records are a bit thin on the ground.
Claire
Yep I found the burial too. That's certainly him. Currently looking for his christening and any siblings. If I can track his relatives down it may help get me somewhere.
It is..... intreguing.
Matt
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Well done you two for finding the burial of Thomas.
There is an Anne Barden buried there just a short while earlier, 19 Feb 1780. Did Thomas ever have a wife?
Not many Barden wills to look at!
One for Sarah Barden, spinster of Heathfield, in 1769.
She may be unconnected, and doesn't mention lots of Barden nieces and nephews, but she does name a brother Thomas, and a sister Ann, so here it is just in case!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR67-N3L
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Well done you two for finding the burial of Thomas.
There is an Anne Barden buried there just a short while earlier, 19 Feb 1780. Did Thomas ever have a wife?
Not many Barden wills to look at!
One for Sarah Barden, spinster of Heathfield, in 1769.
She may be unconnected, and doesn't mention lots of Barden nieces and nephews, but she does name a brother Thomas, and a sister Ann, so here it is just in case!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR67-N3L
I think I'm looking at too many wills and PR entries tonight I just tried to view the 1769 will for Sarah Barden and I keep getting an Error message from Familysearch lol!
Will look again tomorrow.
Matt
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Just spotted something else after taking another look at that will Jon found.
In it, Thomas mentions his niece "Mary the wife of James Turner". Well it looks like this could well be their marriage:
James Turner and Mary Snashall - married at Balcombe on 2 July 1778. It certainly fits with the dating of the will. The image can be seen here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1VS-M9Q?i=218&cc=1465706
I wonder if Turner or Snashall may be the maiden names of Thomas wife [if he mentioned one]? Alternatively there could be another Barden marriage between one of his siblings and one of those.
Snashall is an unusual name so it may be worth investigating that name more. Maybe Thomas or Mary left a will.
What do you all think?
Matt
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Hi Matt and John
I'd seen the Snashall marriage but left it at that with Jon's breakthrough.
A thought:
What if the John Bardin and Ann Page marriage is what we are looking for, but they were both WIDOWED and instead of Ann Page being Sarah's mother it is John Bardin that is her natural father, thereby putting the family in the Fletching area and he being brother of the Thomas Bardin of Balcombe.
It would make more sense.
Claire
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Just spotted this marriage
29 May 1720 Shermanbury
John Snashall and Elizabeth Bardin
Wonder if this is Thomas's sister and mother of Mary Snashall
The James Juniper mentioned in Thomass Will had a wife Sarah
James Juniper married Sarah Snashall 1st April 1749 Lewes.
Claire
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Hi
I think most or all of the other relatives named in the will are going to be from Snashall or Simmons lines. Leaving the possibility that there might be only those four nieces who were originally Barden?
Possibly all from one brother, but can't be sure.
I wouldn't worry too much about the Sarah Barden will at the moment, it doesn't seem to be immediately helpful, and could be a red herring.
Another possible red herring :-\
There are two Sarah Baden baptisms in Balcombe, 12 Oct 1735, and 13 March 1736/7.
No parents being named there at the time!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D1VS-SK9
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Thats a good find Jon. What a shame no parents listed.
Thomas Willets (in Thomas Will) wife Sarah (another niece) was a Symmons (or variant). This couple married in Cuckfield 1761 - have only a Banns date to confirm this.
The Symmons family lived and were born in Cuckfield. Father was a Walter Symmons and his wife Sarah Barden - who married in Cuckfield 16 April 1730.
And there are quite a few BARDENS in Cuckfield that we should possibly checkout.
Claire
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Hi guys
Thanks for all those useful suggestions posted on Thursday. For some odd reason I didn't get any email notifications so it was a good job I looked at the board to see if anything new was on here.
I haven't come across that Sarah Barden will myself. It could well be a red herring or completely the wrong family but I think it may still be worth looking at.
I have a distinct feeling we're getting somewhere with this lot now. I can certainly see connections and matterns forming in the family groups.
Also I do like Claire's idea that the marriage of Francis Bardin and Ann Page does fit here if they were both widowed. It would make sense if Francis was the brother of Thomas and father [via a different wife] of Sarah Barden [niece of Thomas]. This would certainly explain why there is a "Page" witness [Richard Page I think] on Thomas' will. I've seen some wills for the Page family so I am going to compare the signatures on those to this to see if I can prove this connection.
Of course if we're correct about the Bardin-Page marriage, we still have the question of who was Sarah's mother.
I think this is coming together slowly, bit by bit.
Matt
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Hi Matt and John,
Might be my age but I'm a bit confused ??? ;D
I don't think the issue of Sarah's marital status at marriage was ever mentioned.
The Page family were introduced by my theory that Sarah (Barden) may have been the daughter of Francis PAGE and his wife Ann. When Francis Page died his widow Ann Page went on to marry a Mr Barden. My theory being that Sarah may have taken the Barden surname on as her own once her mother remarried in Fletching.
So the Page theory could be correct by my thinking.
Best wishes
Claire
Hi Claire
Just going through my Page-Bardin notes and trying to re-draw the tree as I lost my tree created from all the work we did on this. I was looking through all the comments and posts here and I have no idea where the idea that Sarah was a widow came from lol! I have the marriage for her to John Botting and she is clearly a spinster.
Where did I get that idea from? My only thought is that I had mixed her up with another Sarah.
I think we were right with the work on the Homewood/Page/Bardin families etc.
It just goes to show - never doubt yourself when you're onto a breakthough.
Happy 2023.
Matt
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I have read right through this great piece of detective work.
I didn't see any christening of Sarah Page / Bardin . . . did I miss that, or has it not been found ?
Thanks