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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: DVB-Antwerp on Tuesday 07 April 20 12:32 BST (UK)
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Good day, can anyone help? I am looking for William Bethell x Mary McCoy. They had a son William, born 1842 Liverpool, who emigrated to Belgium, but died in Liverpool 1915. Checked some censusses, nothing decisive.. When & where were they married? (can I find a certificate?) who were their parents??
Thanks a lot
Dirk VB
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Hi
Do you know when son William emigrated to Belgium?
I can't see his birth registration in 1842 Liverpool. Where has his mothers name come from please?
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There is a birth registration for a William Bethel in Liverpool RD in 1842. GRO index has no mother's maiden name, suggesting an unmarried mother.
There's Roman Catholic burial for a William Bethell aged 72 at Yew Tree cemetery in April 1915. Address 8 Radnor Place, Tuebrook.
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Welcome to Rootschat
Did he marry? If so - when & where and who did he marry?
How do you know he was born in Liverpool - do you have him on any census?
No 1851 or 1861 entry for him fitting the profile given
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Gulielmus Bethel aged 2
[William Bethel ]
Born 1840
Baptism Date: 31 Aug 1842
Baptism Place: St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Gulielmus Bethel
Mother: Maria Mccoy
There is nothing on the original entry showing him as 2yrs old
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There is an 1861 marriage - William Bethell/Frances Banks but his father was Edward
Apart from the baptism - nothing else to link William to Liverpool - no census entry etc
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Thanks to all for swift reply!
To answer all questions I obtained from you:
William (° 31/8/1842) must have emigrated to Antwerp between 1860 and 1865. He married a local girl, ML Parmentier at Antwerp on 28/11/1868. His marriage records mentions his parents as William Bethell & Mary McCoy, both “deceased” at that date. (Which does not guarantee they died before that date..?) He was active in ship managing over here and I presume he sometimes got back to Liverpool, it is certain he died there, because his death card says so. Back in 2000, I obtained photographs of Yew Tree Cemetary tomb stone which confirms this.
I do not know whether the parents were really married, if there is no record to be found, maybe there were not.. In any case, there should be a birth record of William jr. It looks to me that the one mentioned by CaroleW might be the one. I checked several censusses some years ago, and found a William ° 1827 and a Mary ° 1828.. but nothing to give certainty. Thank you so far.
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2 x Births September qtr 1842 - same reference & quarter
William Bethel Liverpool 20 444 no mothers maiden name shown indicating he was illegitimate
Births September qtr 1842
William McCoy Liverpool 20 444 GRO online does not show any results
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Thanks again, especially Carole.
If the parents were not married, would that mean this is a "dead end" for us? When (some years ago) I checked 1851 census, I found a William, born 1809 (hence 33 in 1842), this one does not appear in the 1861 census. Hence possibly died in between. I found 3x a Mary McCoy, with age 20 (born 1822), age 30 (born 1812) and age 34 (born 1808), could hence be one of those.. Any suggestion how I can find out more?
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Just took a look again at his death card, says indeed born August 31, which is also the date on the tombstone! Hence the parents are sure. Do birth records mention ages of parent(s)?
Dirk
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Hi
No - ages of parents are never shown. It’s a bit of a poser really. I looked to see if there were any other baptisms but drew a blank. If earlier ones could have been found it may have given a clue as to whether there was a pre-1837 marriage
No Bethel(l) marriage to a McCoy and the only Maria McCoy marriage was 31.5.1841 to James Spencer - also @ St Nicholas.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JSKM-XJD
- index to police records for emigrants to Antwerp, William Bethell file number 23895 - no other Bethel(l)s
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L99H-BZNM?i=958&wc=M6T3-QZW%3A341868501&cc=2023926
- start of his file (click forward)
Many references from 1882 that I think reference his return to Liverpool (12/13 Bolton Street given as address). Page 964 is his original details, filled out 9 September 1867. Arrived into Antwerp August 1867. Born Liverpool, 17 August 1842. Father William, born Liverpool, deceased. Mother Marie McCoy, born Dundakistom?, also deceased.
A 17 August 1842 birth would fit with a registration in September of 1842 - I can only suggest you get the birth certificate, it might show you some information to cross-check such as addresses and the occupation of his father.
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Ah, here we go!
In Belgium there are "marriage supplements" (Huwelijksbijlagen) these are documents supplied at the time of marriage and the ones for Antwerp are online!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9THH-9GDV?i=78&cc=2138481&cat=57143
These are what William provided at the time of his marriage - proof of his baptism and that his parents were deceased.
- Death certificate for William Cotgrave/Cosgrave Bethell, 1848 aged 29. (A printer, died in Liverpool)
- Death certificate for Mary Parkinson, widow of Thomas Parkinson, died at the Liverpool workhouse in 1861 (5th May so might just have made it onto 1861 census?) aged 49.
- Copy of the Catholic baptism in Liverpool in 1842 as found above.
(Interspersed with translations / certificate of these records)
There are also some records for his wife's side of the family. This is a summary and there is more to be found in the details of those records I'm sure.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5G5-HMR
- here is the baptism of William Sr in 1818
I think this may be William with mother Mary in 1851, although hard to be 100% sure.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPP-VPN
There is an 1849 birth for a Maria Parkinson in Liverpool, mother McCoy
She may have died in 1860 (aged 11).
No sign of a marriage for Mary/Maria McCoy to Thomas Parkinson.
Records for Liverpool Workhouse may help?
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Jorose has really opened this case up with those amazing finds.
Here is the Bethell family in Whitechapel in 1841:
Mary Ann Bethell 50 Milliner, not born in county
William Bethell 20 Printer, born in county
Kate Bethell 20 Milliner, born in county
Elizabeth Bethell 15, born in county
Ann Bethell 13, born in county
Mary Ann died in 1863.
Kate/Catherine took over the business
Elizabeth married John Horsfall, the informant on William's death certificate
I'm attaching some directory listings
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William Cotgreave Bethell's death announcement from the Liverpool Mercury of 17 March 1848:
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Many references from 1882 that I think reference his return to Liverpool (12/13 Bolton Street given as address).
My french is a bit rusty but I think the gist of it is that he had previously lived at 12 or 13 Bolton Street, Liverpool but he had left that town 24 years ago and no-one there would know him now. He mentions Messrs Philips & Son, drapiers, in Lord Street as people who would remember him (probably this was Phillips & Son, woollen merchants, 99 Lord Street).
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sorry - info already posted
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1861 census at 49 Cumberland Street, Liverpool:
Mary Parkinson, widow, 49, fruit dealer, born Ireland
W. Bethell, son, 18, porter (dock), born Liverpool
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1861 Liverpool Workhouse creed register on FindMyPast - Mary is second from the bottom of the page:
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FLIVERPOOL%2F004633714%2F00481&parentid=PRS%2FLIVERPOOL%2FWORKHOUSE%2F0094495
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Thank you all again.. still some difficulties to get into the links you supply.. But in the meantime I get a pretty good picture. In some old files I have (since 2004), I already "suspected" William (1818-1848) to have been a printer, but I was not sure. Now I am.. I also found a poem, written for Rvd Thomas Spencer in 1812 and printed by W. Bethell. It seems to confirm that William (grandpa of "our" Willian Bethell ° 1842) already had the printing company with his wife Mary Ann.
Not being familiar with British "names", where does the "Colgrave/Cotgrave" come from?
How can I find out where/when Mary McCoy and Mary Ann X were born? I tried to google Dundakistom(?) but there does not seem to be any city or place in Ireland that matches..
If I would like a birth certificate, can somebody obtain that for me, I'll pay the cost..
This part of the family story again has gripped me, I can't put it aside..
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William Bethell, printer, married Mary Ann Skelton at St Anne's church, Liverpool on 10 April 1815
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Death of William Bethell the grandfather, 28 August 1834
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How can I find out where/when Mary McCoy and Mary Ann X were born? I tried to google Dundakistom(?) but there does not seem to be any city or place in Ireland that matches..
If I would like a birth certificate, can somebody obtain that for me, I'll pay the cost..
Consensus of opinion on other thread is Dundalk.
Births of both women were before civil registration of births began so there were no birth certificates.
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Hello all, thank you so far. As I still want to find whatever interesting data, I am afraid the Mary McCoy trail will be difficult. As she seems not to have been married to William Bethell, nor to Mr Parkinson, why would she have been noted as widow of Parkinson?
If I can then concentrate on Mary Ann Skelton (her "mother in law"), I wonder if their marriage records would reveal her parents? I found the "note" that there were married indeed in 1815. As I am "far away", could anybody obtain that record with details for me, I will pay the costs..
Thanks,
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The 1815 marriage record will not give you any information on her parents. However we know from the 1851 and 1861 censuses that she was born in Harrington, Cumberland. Here is a likely baptism:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C4-928
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For ShaunJ: if she was 50 in 1841 (your list of the family at Whitechapel, on April 9), she must have been born 1791 or so..
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In the 1841 census, ages of adults were rounded down to the nearest 5 years. So someone who declared themselves to be 54 would be rounded down to 50. And many people lied about how old they were.
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In the 1841 census, ages of adults were rounded down to the nearest 5 years. So someone who declared themselves to be 54 would be rounded down to 50. And many people lied about how old they were.
Some people didn't know how old they were.
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can you get in touch. William Bethell is/was 2xgreat grandfather of my son-in-law. Ik woon in Kortrijk!
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Good day Lesley, I just rechecked this forum page -after some years..- and want to react.
I think your son-in-law is Lieven H.. right? If yes, you won't believe I "met" him a week ago on Geneanet. Let's find out..
Dirk van Bogaert-Antwerp- (you might reply via * )
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