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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Kellygr7 on Wednesday 01 April 20 14:27 BST (UK)
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Hi. We have hit our brick wall person and wondering if anyone out there can help. We are searching for my mother in law's father. We know when he was born, who his parents were etc etc. We are trying to find when he died. We know he was still alive in the late 1970s/ early 1980s but he would be dead by now.
His name was Phillip (Philip) Herbert Stone, born June 1916 in London, mother Nellie Parsons. We've traced pretty much his whole tree but it seems that Philip (who may also have been known as Jim or Bert) was a bit of a dark horse and so his family don't really know much about him. We know he spent time in Cornwall in the early/mid 1950s. We know he also had a son called Paul (in the photo taken in 1965) around 1960 - 1962 although no one knows if the son actually took his father's surname. Paul's mother was someone called Polly?. We know that Philip was believed to have worked at the Pendower Hotel in Cornwall in the early 1950s. We also know he had two daughters with a woman named Rose (deceased) in Cornwall in the mid to late 1960s.
We think we found him in census/electoral info in London in the early 1960s but then he seems to disappear. We had been told he'd died around 1963/4 but we know that's not true. He may have worked in pubs and hotels.
Philip (who we think may be the man in the photo) had a number of siblings. Three of his sisters went to America. We have found the American family. He had a brother who lived in St Albans and we have found this family. His other brother stayed around the Hampstead area of London and we have found them. But despite all of this, we still do not know what happened to Philip. Any help with this one would be very much appreciated.
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Just to let any potential helpers that this request has also been posted on other boards. :)
BTW - Welcome to rootschat Kelly. It is preferable to post similar or closely related requests only once on one board, otherwise it can get confusing. If you are not sure where to post, either here on the Beginners Board or in the Common Room is fine.
I'm afraid we are not allowed to mention anyone still living so you might like to amend your post to remove the names - or you can just use initials which might help others track these people down.
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Sorry, thank you! Wasn't sure where was the best place. Do feel free to delete in the other areas if not appropriate. x
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No worries Kelly. I think we've all been there at some stage. :)
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I doubt if Philip H Stone would be still alive if he was born in 1916, registered Sept qtr 1916
Louisa Maud
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I doubt if Philip H Stone would be still alive if he was born in 1916, registered Sept qtr 1916
Louisa Maud
Kelly is looking to find when he died :)
We are trying to find when he died. We know he was still alive in the late 1970s/ early 1980s but he would be dead by now.
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I know, but it was suggested on another site that we aren't allowed to look for living persons, unless I have misunderstood it, he sure wouldn't be alive now
This has been posted 3 times I believe
Louisa Maud
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I doubt if Philip H Stone would be still alive if he was born in 1916, registered Sept qtr 1916
Louisa Maud
The son born in the early 1960s might be alive though, so might the son's mother. :-\
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I've altered it to remove sons name.
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Do you know Philip's exact date of birth?
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Yes, june 9 1916. Weve found a death in maidstone for a philip h stone born june 10, 1916 but it was 1974 and we know he was alive after that. We also found one in 1980 in Westminster but that's not him either.
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I presume you obtained the death certificate for the 1980 one to verify it wasn't your Philip?
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Yes, june 9 1916. Weve found a death in maidstone for a philip h stone born june 10, 1916 but it was 1974 and we know he was alive after that. We also found one in 1980 in Westminster but that's not him either.
What evidence do you have that he was alive after 1974
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. Wrong post
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The 1980 death is an exact match to his birthdate - why have you discounted it?
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Yes Carole I noticed that, which I why I asked Kelly if she had obtained the death cert. to check it out.
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That Philip was married to someone that we know was not our Philip's wife. We also know he was alive after 1974 because a family member saw him in 1979/80..
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The 1939 register has no other Philip or Phillip Stone with that birthdate. If he died in 1980 he fits the examples you quote - still alive in 1974 etc
Did you buy that 1980 death cert?
EDIT
I'm also puzzled when you say "that Philip was married to someone that we know was not our Philip's wife" but there is no mention of a marriage in your opening post. The wording suggests he had children by 2 different women - but no marriage?
So who did he marry? Where and when?
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https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/44028/page/7144/data.pdf
- this might be a bankruptcy for him, in London as a "club proprietor" in the 1960s
You should look at the information on the 1980 certificate while considering who the informant was - depending on their relationship to Phillip there might be various reasons why the information they gave was not accurate to what you know from your side of the family.
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Thanks Jorose. The link doesn't seem to work? I have requested the death certificate for 1980 but it's taking forever. The 1980 death was married to a gladys speed. He also remarried her later. The man we are looking for we believe was briefly married to phyllis Batchelor in the early 60s and we have found that through census searches. We also know he was living alone again by 1965. We cant find anything for him after that date. I guess it's possible he remarried again in between the two gladys marriages.
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I also believe he might have lived in Birmingham at one time occupation as a pot man, about 1940 ish
Louisa Maud
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Another thing, and I dont know how much difference it makes but while he was born Phillip Herbert Stone, in later censuses he was down as Philip Stone and we know it was him because he was listed as living with his parents at 169 Hendon Way, Hampstead. So his name seemed to change.
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Often double LL is used within the name Phillip so I shouldn't really bother about that, also he might not have always used his middle name, wouldn't read to much into that either
Good luck with the death cert, please let us know the details
Louisa Maud
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If you haven't already got this
1945
Phillip H Stone
married
Gladys Speed
Surrey N E
ref 2a 135
Louisa Maud
PS, have you checked any births between Stone and MMN Speed?, there might be 2 births from this marriage born in Surrey N
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It can help to see things set out on paper so it might make it clearer if you write up a timeline for Phillip?
It may also be worth writing beside the dates how you know about this event on this date. Eg you say "We also know he was alive after 1974 because a family member saw him in 1979/80". (How sure is the person who saw him of the year?) He was a pot man in Birmingham in the 1940s (how do you know this?).
Did Phillip serve in WW2? If so, his service record might give some personal information.
I understand that family stories are all you have to go on at the moment but memories can fade and confusion can set in so it might be worth being a bit flexible with any suggestions put to you.
In your opening post you imply that he was a bit of a mystery man so having an extra wife or two that you are not aware of might be a possibility.
I agree with lousia maud that the slight difference in spelling of Phillip and the omission of his middle name is not significant.
If you applied for the 1980 d/c from the GRO I am not sure if they are fulfilling historical orders at this time. There is likely to be information on the website. Yes, please let us know what this tells you when it arrives.
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As mentioned
Stone
to
Phyllis Batchelor
Paddington
1960
ref 5a 400
Louisa Maud
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Anyone else having issues loading the Gazette? The bankruptcy notice certainly fits because we know he lived in that area. Plus money stopped arriving for the daughters down here around then which obviously if he was made bankrupt would account for it.
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Yes, that's the one but the marriage didn't last. Probably because hed had a baby with someone else during it's short duration! It's been driving us mad for years. An ancestry dna test finally put us on the right path but it still feels like one step forward, one back.
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You will get there, don't give up
Louisa Maud
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It looks like this is what you know so far:
Phillip Herbert Stone born 9 June 1916 - mother Nellie Parsons
Phillip aka Jim or Bert
1939 - only one person by this name on the register
1940s - pot man in Birmingham
1945 - Phillip Stone married Gladys Speed in Surrey
possible two children from this marriage
1950s - early to mid - lived in Cornwall - worked at Pendowner Hotel
1960 - Phillip Stone = married Phyllis Batchelor Paddington (found through census searches - no census available for the 60s)
1960 - possible bankruptcy in London as club proprietor (London Gazette)
Living alone by 1965 (how do you know)
1960 - on electoral roll in london (no census)
had son "P" in 1960/62 - his mother's name "P" (surname may not have been Stone)
mid to late 60s had 2 daughters with a woman named Rose
Phillip still alive after 1974 (seen by a family member in 1979/80)
possible death 1980 Westminster - discounted because he was married to someone who was not his wife (how do you know this if you do not have the death certificate yet?)
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Think it is a waiting game now till the death cert arrives
Louisa Maud
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For info.
Public trees on Anc*y has following
Philip Herbert STONE born 1916 death unknown
parents
Evan Harold STONE 1886-1955
Nellie Florence PARSONS 1895-1962
10 Siblings all but 1 named
Married G SPEED 1945
2 sons DFS 1949 & SPS 1951
And then married
P J RIVERS 1963 Cheltenham Gloucestershire
Son NPS bn 1965 Stroud
No marriage certificate details to confirm info.
No mention of the 1960 marriage to
P BATCHELOR
Another tree has less details but has a photo of Evan & Nellie Stone nee Parsons
Are these all the years you have for Philip with his parents and siblings?
Years 1946/1947/1948/1949/1950/1951/1952
169 Hendon Way NW2
Evan Harold Stone
Helen F Stone
PHILIP H Stone
S M Stone (female)
C M Stone (female)
Years 1953/1955
169 Hendon Way NW2
Evan Harold Stone
Helen F Stone
S M Stone (female)
A M Stone (male)
Year 1935
169 Hendon Way NW2
Evan Harold Stone
Nellie Florence Stone
Years 1936/1937
169 Hendon Way NW2
Evan Harold Stone
Nellie Florence Stone
E C Stone (male)
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Yes. My husband has an extensive tree on ancestry and those are the census things we found. We think theres a gap between 52 and 55 because he was in Cornwall. Then there a couple of options for him back in london after 1960. The 1966 bankruptcy thing seems right but I can't get a proper look because the gazette website isnt working for me. We have looked at those other marriages as well.
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The 1966 bankruptcy thing seems right but I can't get a proper look because the gazette website isnt working for me. We have looked at those other marriages as well.
Not sure if this is the same link that's been posted
24th May 1966
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/43994/page/6173/data.pdf
The address given on Bankruptcy for PHS of The Luxor House Hotel, 21 Craven Hill London W2, Club Proprietor.............
Edited to add
The link jorose posted worked for me the date 21st June 1966
PHS of Flat 21, 18, Craven Hill London W2 of no occupation, lately trading as The Grand Slam Club
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The man we are looking for we believe was briefly married to P Batchelor in the early 60s and we have found that through census searches.
We also know he was living alone again by 1965.
You probably have these details but just in case...... from London Electoral Register
Year 1963
Ward Paddington South Borough Paddington
21 Craven Hill
Philip STONE
There are other 10 other persons at that address - no others with surname Stone
Year 1962
Ward Lancaster Gate Borough Paddington
(Flat 16) 63/65 Lancaster Gate
Philip H STONE
P STONE (female)
J A BATCHELOR (female)
Can send you a PM if you don't have their full names
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Thanks lady hawk. I think we had that. He moved to 21 craven hill and that's where he was in 1966 when he was made bankrupt so weve moved it forward 3 years on here which I am so grateful to everyone for helping with. Xx Fingers crossed someone can see where he went next.
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This info doesn't move PHS forward, but does flesh out some details - in 1958 and 59, PHS was living at 17 Craven Hill Gardens, with Phyllis Batchelor living at the same property.
Prior to that, PB seems to be living at Queensborough Terrace - according to google maps, the walking time between Craven Hill Gardens and Queensborough Terrace is 4 minutes!
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Thanks yes. We then found them living together in Lancaster gardens or street in 1960/61 and then her married to him. We think her sister was living with them for a bit. Then he turns up back at craven hill.
Does anyone know how we could find out the name of the club he allegedly owned? Companies house wouldn't hold that info would it because it's too long ago. And in terms of divorces while ancestry mentions it, I cant see how you find that info. I'm guessing there may have been a fair few or he was a bigamist!
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My parents lived in Queensborough Terrace, it is only a stones throw as it were from Craven Hill Gardens.
Not sure if you find records of divorces as late as the 60' s yet
Have you got all of PHS's marriages and what his status was?
Louisa Maud
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That certainly makes sense re queensborough terrace. That area appears to have been his stomping ground. Our relative stayed in that area when in London and worked at st Mary's, paddington.
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According to the National Archives, they hold very little material relating to divorces after 1937. You might find that your best option is to find write-ups in local papers (who always like scandal and gossip!)
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We seem to have lots of possible marriages and without ordering every certificate... we initially had g as his wife, then changed to pr. We are fairly certain on PB being his wife. But the dates are so close for them all, theres no way he could have divorced in the time available.
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Does anyone know how we could find out the name of the club he allegedly owned?
Companies house wouldn't hold that info would it because it's too long ago.
For others looking rather than going back & forth to click on the link
..
The London Gazette , 21st June 1966
Philip Herbert Stone of Flat 21, 18, Craven Hill London W.2., of no occupation,
lately trading as The Grand Slam Club, at 21, Craven Hill, London W.2 as a
Club Proprietor described in the Receiving Order as of The Luxor House Hotel,
21, Craven Hill, London W2
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Thank you LadyHawk!! Wow. A name!! That I can work with!! Thanks so much xx
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We found this man.
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We found the person. Thank you for all your assistance.
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Kelly, that is excellent news. Are you willling to elaborate? How did you find him?
Is the information previously found correct?